What is "Parousia"?

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Ronald Nolette

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YES, the 1/3 of the physical seed of the earthbound nation of Israel will be grafted back into the Salvation Tree at His Second Coming.

At His Second Coming, Christ will resurrect the dead in Him and AFTER that He will rapture remaining living Saints on earth.
Actually it is three days before His second coming as per HoSEA 6. Grafted back? I don't know if I like the wording but I can accept that. It is their tree after all!

You added IN HIM which does not appear in Scripture. what it actually says is this:

Revelation 20

King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

the people who are resurrected after Jesus returns to earth are a specific group according to Gods Word.

1. they were beheaded for the witness of Jesus.
2. they had not worshipped the beast
3. Nor his image
4. and had not taken the mark either on their foreheads of hands.

These are the people who are saved during the tribulation! these are not church saints nor are they ever called church saints. I colloquially call them tribulation saints for ID purpoeses.
 

David in NJ

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Actually it is three days before His second coming as per HoSEA 6. Grafted back? I don't know if I like the wording but I can accept that. It is their tree after all!

You added IN HIM which does not appear in Scripture. what it actually says is this:

Revelation 20​

King James Version​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

the people who are resurrected after Jesus returns to earth are a specific group according to Gods Word.

1. they were beheaded for the witness of Jesus.
2. they had not worshipped the beast
3. Nor his image
4. and had not taken the mark either on their foreheads of hands.

These are the people who are saved during the tribulation! these are not church saints nor are they ever called church saints. I colloquially call them tribulation saints for ID purpoeses.

Bible Fact: 1 Thess 4:14 Scripture does say 'in Him' = "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

The people who Christ resurrects a very specific Group = His Saints/the Elect/His Church all the way back to Genesis.
 

keithr

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Bible Fact: 1 Thess 4:14 Scripture does say 'in Him' = "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

The people who Christ resurrects a very specific Group = His Saints/the Elect/His Church all the way back to Genesis.
1Th 4:16 - "... The dead in Christ will rise first". The dead in Christ are only those that have become Christians, and therefore are only those who have been baptised into Jesus' death ("Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3). Nobody was able to be baptised into Jesus and become a Christian until Jesus began his ministry; his Church doesn't go all the way back to the times mentioned in Genesis. Hence Jesus said, "Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he" (Matthew 11:11).
 

David in NJ

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1Th 4:16 - "... The dead in Christ will rise first". The dead in Christ are only those that have become Christians, and therefore are only those who have been baptised into Jesus' death ("Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3). Nobody was able to be baptised into Jesus and become a Christian until Jesus began his ministry; his Church doesn't go all the way back to the times mentioned in Genesis. Hence Jesus said, "Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he" (Matthew 11:11).
Your thesis is not in agreement with the Word and has fault/error.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.
The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.
We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word says: "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."


The Word says:
Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.

The Word says:
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

All who believed the Word, in faith, that was spoken to them received the circumcision of the heart and received salvation.

Genesis ch15
After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram

And Abram believed in the Lord/Word, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Deuteronomy 10:12-17
And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good? Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. The Lord delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.

Deuteronomy 30:6
the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Psalm 51 - David was saved/received the salvation of the Word
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.

The difference between OT Saints and NT Saints was not Salvation but was the Fulfillment of the LAMB of God = YESHUA

Hebrews 11:39 - And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

God had/has a Plan to bring together in One the OT Saints and the NT Saints into One Body of Christ


Galatians ch3 - Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
So then those who are of faith are blessed(Salvation)
with believing Abraham.

We are not separate from ALL Believers in the WORD but are members together of One Salvation = the WORD.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Bible Fact: 1 Thess 4:14 Scripture does say 'in Him' = "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

The people who Christ resurrects a very specific Group = His Saints/the Elect/His Church all the way back to Genesis.
Sorry but the church did not begin in Genesis. YOu really need to pay attention to Gods word and the verbs in order not to ber led astray.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say I have been building, or will keep on building, but , WILL BUILD, future tense!

Also entrance into the body of Christ is by Spirit Baptism and that did not happen in history until the upper room during Pentecost.

Even John the Baptist recognized he was not part of the chruch.

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Teh weakest frailest member of the Body of Christ is greater than John!
 

David in NJ

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Sorry but the church did not begin in Genesis. YOu really need to pay attention to Gods word and the verbs in order not to ber led astray.

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus did not say I have been building, or will keep on building, but , WILL BUILD, future tense!

Also entrance into the body of Christ is by Spirit Baptism and that did not happen in history until the upper room during Pentecost.

Even John the Baptist recognized he was not part of the chruch.

John 3:29
He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Teh weakest frailest member of the Body of Christ is greater than John!
You need to stop arguing against scripture = Adam & Eve is a clear picture of Christ and His Church.

Acts 7:37-38
This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren.
Him you shall hear.’
“This is he(Moses) who was in the congregation/ekklesia/church in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,


The word 'church' is not accurate but 'ekklesia' is, which means Assembly/Congregation.

You can replace 'church' with Assembly/Congregation for a more accurate and Truthful understanding in Scripture.
 

David in NJ

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1Th 4:16 - "... The dead in Christ will rise first". The dead in Christ are only those that have become Christians, and therefore are only those who have been baptised into Jesus' death ("Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3). Nobody was able to be baptised into Jesus and become a Christian until Jesus began his ministry; his Church doesn't go all the way back to the times mentioned in Genesis. Hence Jesus said, "Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he" (Matthew 11:11).
The Resurrection of the JUST includes the Saints all the way back to Genesis = JESUS said so...........

Matthew 22:29-33
Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

Matthew 8:10-11
When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
 

keithr

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The Resurrection of the JUST includes the Saints all the way back to Genesis = JESUS said so...........
Everyone will be resurrected, "there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust" (Acts 24:15). But only those that have a part in the first resurrection will be changed to spirit beings and will have a home in heaven with Jesus. Only Christians have that calling - John 6 (WEB):

(44) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.​
(63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​
(64) But there are some of you who don’t believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn’t believe, and who it was who would betray him.​
(65) He said, “For this cause I have said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father.”​

Those born before Jesus' ministry could not have heard and believe Jesus' words, therefore they could not become Christians and have a share in Christ's inheritance.

Matthew 8:10-11
When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
When God's kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, is established in heaven and on the earth, Abraham will receive his promised inheritance of the Promised Land (on earth), and people from all over the world will visit Israel and sit down with Abraham and the other Old Testament prophets. Hebrews 11:8 (WEB):

(8) By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went.​

Hebrews 11:40 (WEB);
(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

God has promised a better thing for Christians - an immortal spiritual resurrection and a share in the running of the kingdom of heaven/God. Everyone else will not be able to receive their promised blessings until after the Church has been resurrected, and after the kingdom has been established and mankind perfected. Only later, at the end of the Millennial Age will the rest of mankind be made perfect and have eternal life.
 

David in NJ

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Everyone will be resurrected, "there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust" (Acts 24:15). But only those that have a part in the first resurrection will be changed to spirit beings and will have a home in heaven with Jesus. Only Christians have that calling - John 6 (WEB):

(44) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.​
(63) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.​
(64) But there are some of you who don’t believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who didn’t believe, and who it was who would betray him.​
(65) He said, “For this cause I have said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by my Father.”​

Those born before Jesus' ministry could not have heard and believe Jesus' words, therefore they could not become Christians and have a share in Christ's inheritance.


When God's kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, is established in heaven and on the earth, Abraham will receive his promised inheritance of the Promised Land (on earth), and people from all over the world will visit Israel and sit down with Abraham and the other Old Testament prophets. Hebrews 11:8 (WEB):

(8) By faith, Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out to the place which he was to receive for an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he went.​

Hebrews 11:40 (WEB);
(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.​

God has promised a better thing for Christians - an immortal spiritual resurrection and a share in the running of the kingdom of heaven/God. Everyone else will not be able to receive their promised blessings until after the Church has been resurrected, and after the kingdom has been established and mankind perfected. Only later, at the end of the Millennial Age will the rest of mankind be made perfect and have eternal life.
All the of the OT Saints that believed the WORD were called to be followers of the Promise of Messiah = Salvation.
All of the OT Saints, who BELIEVED the WORD, are saved and will be part of the FIRST Resurrection.
JESUS said so.

1 Peter 1:10-12
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

Hebrews 4:1
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
For indeed the Gospel(Salvation) was preached to us as well as to them(OT Saints).

JESUS said that all OT Saints are included in His Resurrection when HE Returns = John ch11


Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house.
Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

keithr

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All the of the OT Saints that believed the WORD were called to be followers of the Promise of Messiah = Salvation.
Just believing that God was going to send a Messiah, a person anointed to save Israel and all mankind, does not make you a Christian and part of the Church (body of Christ). All the Jews believed that, but they didn't all become Christians.

All of the OT Saints, who BELIEVED the WORD, are saved and will be part of the FIRST Resurrection. JESUS said so.

1 Peter 1:10-12
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.
It's a complicated few verses! Who are the "prophets" that Peter was referring to? It could mean the Old Testament prophets, but it could also be referring to those in the Church who had the gift of prophecy. As Barnes comments:

... it remains to give that which seems, on the whole, to be truer to the meaning of the words, and which presents a solution of phenomena which the other leaves unsolved. The basis of this other explanation lies in the belief that St Peter is speaking mainly, though perhaps not exclusively, of the prophets of the Apostolic Church. The position of those prophets was, we must remember, as prominent as that of the Apostles (Eph_2:20; Eph_3:5; Eph_4:11; 2Pe_3:2). Among those with whom St Peter had been brought into personal contact were Barnabas, the “son of consolation,” or, as the Hebrew might be interpreted, the “son of prophecy” (Act_4:36), Agabus (Act_11:28; Act_21:10), Judas, and Silas or Silvanus (Act_15:32). In 2Pe_1:19 we have sufficient proof of the importance attached to the “prophetic word” as a light giving guidance amidst the darkness and perplexities of the time. In 2Pe_3:1-13 we see that they spoke of the glories of the new heaven and the new earth after a time of darkness and distress. In 1Co_2:9-10 we read how the things which “eye had not seen nor ear heard” had been revealed to prophets by the Spirit, and in Rom_16:25-26, in like manner, that “the mystery which had been kept secret since the world began was now made manifest in prophetic writings,” just as in Eph_3:5 St Paul speaks of the same mystery as now “revealed unto the Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit.” All this is enough, it is believed, to warrant, if only at first, tentatively, the assumption that the prophets of the New Testament are those of whom St Peter speaks.

Verse 12 says, "To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, they ministered these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven", meaning that the prophecy that came to the prophets was not just for them but was to be shared with all Christians, and was shared by the Apostles and Christian teachers/evangelists. Peter was saying that when the Spirit of Christ working in the prophets predicted the sufferings of Christ (and Paul said "the sufferings of Christ abound to us", 2Cor 1:5) and the glories that would follow them, then, as Barnes explains it, "they perceived that in their communications there were some great and glorious truths which they did not fully comprehend, and that they diligently employed their natural faculties to understand that which they were appointed to impart to succeeding generations. They thus became students and interpreters for themselves of their own predictions".

Even if Peter was referring to the Old Testament prophets, just because they recorded prophecies that pointed to the Messiah, such as Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53, that does not make them Christians. To be a Christian you must be called by God and begotten again:

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV):
(13) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,​

2Thessalonians 2:13-15 (ESV):
(13) But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.​
(14) To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.​
(15) So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Those living before the establishment of the Church did not hear or read the Gospel and so couldn't believe it or have a part in its blessings.

Hebrews 4:1
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
For indeed the Gospel(Salvation) was preached to us as well as to them(OT Saints).
The "them" referred to was not Old Testament saints. It was to the Israelites that Moses brought out of Egypt and into the wilderness. Of them it says:

Hebrews 3:9-11 (WEB):
(9) where your fathers tested me by proving me, and saw my deeds for forty years.​
(10) Therefore I was displeased with that generation, and said, ‘They always err in their heart, but they didn’t know my ways;’​
(11) as I swore in my wrath, ‘They will not enter into my rest.’”​

Hebrews 3:19 (WEB):
(19) We see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.​

So Paul then writes (to quote the whole verse):

Hebrews 4:2 (WEB):
(2) For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn’t profit them, because it wasn’t mixed with faith by those who heard.​

So those Israelites failed to profit by the good news of their release from captivity in Egypt and of the promised land and blessings of God, because they didn't believe God. Therefore God did not let them enter the promised land and they all died in the wilderness. The main point of Paul's writing is verse 11 (WEB):

(11) Let’s therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

JESUS said that all OT Saints are included in His Resurrection when HE Returns = John ch11

Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
As you should know, it has been revealed to the Church that there are two resurrections. The Jews believed in a resurrection, but they didn't know of the first resurrection of the Church. Paul reveals things that were not revealed to the Old Testament Israelites. Colossians 1 (WEB):

(26) the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations. But now it has been revealed to his saints,​
(27) to whom God was pleased to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory;​
 

David in NJ

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Just believing that God was going to send a Messiah, a person anointed to save Israel and all mankind, does not make you a Christian and part of the Church (body of Christ). All the Jews believed that, but they didn't all become Christians.


It's a complicated few verses! Who are the "prophets" that Peter was referring to? It could mean the Old Testament prophets, but it could also be referring to those in the Church who had the gift of prophecy. As Barnes comments:

... it remains to give that which seems, on the whole, to be truer to the meaning of the words, and which presents a solution of phenomena which the other leaves unsolved. The basis of this other explanation lies in the belief that St Peter is speaking mainly, though perhaps not exclusively, of the prophets of the Apostolic Church. The position of those prophets was, we must remember, as prominent as that of the Apostles (Eph_2:20; Eph_3:5; Eph_4:11; 2Pe_3:2). Among those with whom St Peter had been brought into personal contact were Barnabas, the “son of consolation,” or, as the Hebrew might be interpreted, the “son of prophecy” (Act_4:36), Agabus (Act_11:28; Act_21:10), Judas, and Silas or Silvanus (Act_15:32). In 2Pe_1:19 we have sufficient proof of the importance attached to the “prophetic word” as a light giving guidance amidst the darkness and perplexities of the time. In 2Pe_3:1-13 we see that they spoke of the glories of the new heaven and the new earth after a time of darkness and distress. In 1Co_2:9-10 we read how the things which “eye had not seen nor ear heard” had been revealed to prophets by the Spirit, and in Rom_16:25-26, in like manner, that “the mystery which had been kept secret since the world began was now made manifest in prophetic writings,” just as in Eph_3:5 St Paul speaks of the same mystery as now “revealed unto the Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit.” All this is enough, it is believed, to warrant, if only at first, tentatively, the assumption that the prophets of the New Testament are those of whom St Peter speaks.

Verse 12 says, "To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, they ministered these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven", meaning that the prophecy that came to the prophets was not just for them but was to be shared with all Christians, and was shared by the Apostles and Christian teachers/evangelists. Peter was saying that when the Spirit of Christ working in the prophets predicted the sufferings of Christ (and Paul said "the sufferings of Christ abound to us", 2Cor 1:5) and the glories that would follow them, then, as Barnes explains it, "they perceived that in their communications there were some great and glorious truths which they did not fully comprehend, and that they diligently employed their natural faculties to understand that which they were appointed to impart to succeeding generations. They thus became students and interpreters for themselves of their own predictions".

Even if Peter was referring to the Old Testament prophets, just because they recorded prophecies that pointed to the Messiah, such as Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53, that does not make them Christians. To be a Christian you must be called by God and begotten again:

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV):
(13) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,​

2Thessalonians 2:13-15 (ESV):
(13) But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.​
(14) To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.​
(15) So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

Those living before the establishment of the Church did not hear or read the Gospel and so couldn't believe it or have a part in its blessings.


The "them" referred to was not Old Testament saints. It was to the Israelites that Moses brought out of Egypt and into the wilderness. Of them it says:

Hebrews 3:9-11 (WEB):
(9) where your fathers tested me by proving me, and saw my deeds for forty years.​
(10) Therefore I was displeased with that generation, and said, ‘They always err in their heart, but they didn’t know my ways;’​
(11) as I swore in my wrath, ‘They will not enter into my rest.’”​

Hebrews 3:19 (WEB):
(19) We see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.​

So Paul then writes (to quote the whole verse):

Hebrews 4:2 (WEB):
(2) For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn’t profit them, because it wasn’t mixed with faith by those who heard.​

So those Israelites failed to profit by the good news of their release from captivity in Egypt and of the promised land and blessings of God, because they didn't believe God. Therefore God did not let them enter the promised land and they all died in the wilderness. The main point of Paul's writing is verse 11 (WEB):

(11) Let’s therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.


As you should know, it has been revealed to the Church that there are two resurrections. The Jews believed in a resurrection, but they didn't know of the first resurrection of the Church. Paul reveals things that were not revealed to the Old Testament Israelites. Colossians 1 (WEB):

(26) the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations. But now it has been revealed to his saints,​
(27) to whom God was pleased to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory;​
You said: "Just believing that God was going to send a Messiah, a person anointed to save Israel and all mankind, does not make you a Christian and part of the Church (body of Christ). All the Jews believed that, but they didn't all become Christians."

YES - Believing in the WORD that was God from the beginning(Genesis) saves a person from eternal damnation.

the WORD says: "these words I speak to you they are Spirit and they are Life"

the WORD spoke to Abraham His Gospel Message of Salvation = John ch8 and Galatians ch3

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Understand, then, that those who have faith are sons of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You need to stop arguing against scripture = Adam & Eve is a clear picture of Christ and His Church.

Acts 7:37-38
This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren.
Him you shall hear.’
“This is he(Moses) who was in the congregation/ekklesia/church in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,


The word 'church' is not accurate but 'ekklesia' is, which means Assembly/Congregation.

You can replace 'church' with Assembly/Congregation for a more accurate and Truthful understanding in Scripture.
you need to stop allegorizing simple facts.

Israel was not a church but a people. Adam and Eve is a picture but not the church. Ekklessia is found in teh septuigant and not in teh Hebrew. Church is but one definition.

Listen to Jesus man! UUpon this Rock I WILL build my church! NOt have been building or will keep building which would have been what He said if the church was already in existence.

Stop fighting against Jesus Word!
 

Ronald Nolette

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You need to stop arguing against scripture = Adam & Eve is a clear picture of Christ and His Church.

Acts 7:37-38
This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren.
Him you shall hear.’
“This is he(Moses) who was in the congregation/ekklesia/church in the wilderness with the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, the one who received the living oracles to give to us,


The word 'church' is not accurate but 'ekklesia' is, which means Assembly/Congregation.

You can replace 'church' with Assembly/Congregation for a more accurate and Truthful understanding in Scripture.
I am warning you now to cool it with the extreme accusations! disagreeing with your opinions is not arguing against Scripture, but arguing against your opinion of Scripture.

If you believe the church of Jesus Christ existed in the OT then you make Jesus a liar or one who doesn't know what He was saying when He used the future tense.

Spirit baptism is what is required to be in the church. spirit Baptism did not occur until Pentecost.
 

David in NJ

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you need to stop allegorizing simple facts.

Israel was not a church but a people. Adam and Eve is a picture but not the church. Ekklessia is found in teh septuigant and not in teh Hebrew. Church is but one definition.

Listen to Jesus man! UUpon this Rock I WILL build my church! NOt have been building or will keep building which would have been what He said if the church was already in existence.

Stop fighting against Jesus Word!
You limit yourself in understanding in the scriptures therefore you will argue based on those limits.
 

David in NJ

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I am warning you now to cool it with the extreme accusations! disagreeing with your opinions is not arguing against Scripture, but arguing against your opinion of Scripture.

If you believe the church of Jesus Christ existed in the OT then you make Jesus a liar or one who doesn't know what He was saying when He used the future tense.

Spirit baptism is what is required to be in the church. spirit Baptism did not occur until Pentecost.
You need to study more in depth of the entire Scripture beginning with Genesis.
 

keithr

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You said: "Just believing that God was going to send a Messiah, a person anointed to save Israel and all mankind, does not make you a Christian and part of the Church (body of Christ). All the Jews believed that, but they didn't all become Christians."

YES - Believing in the WORD that was God from the beginning(Genesis) saves a person from eternal damnation.
That's a mishmash of verses that you've come up with because of your Trinity bias. Just believing in God doesn't save you - all the Jews believed that, but they were under the Law which they could not keep, and none of them were saved. To be more precise (quoting an actual Bible verse), Romans 10:9 (WEB):

(9) that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

There is no requirement to believe that Jesus was God (because he wasn't); the requirement is to believe that he is Lord (our king), and that God raised Jesus from the dead. The Greek words that are translated Lord and God are different. Jesus was not God, he was God's only begotten son.

John 3:18 (WEB):
(18) He who believes in him [God's Son] is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​
1 John 4:9 (WEB):
(9) By this God’s love was revealed in us, that God has sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.​

the WORD spoke to Abraham His Gospel Message of Salvation = John ch8 and Galatians ch3
Galatians 3 (WEB):
(7) Know therefore that those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham.​
(8) The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.”​
(9) So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.​

The "Gospel" that Jesus died as a sacrifice for all mankind, and has given everyone an opportunity of eternal life, was not the "good news" that was preached to Abraham. As it says, the good news told to Abraham was that in him all the nations would be blessed, that is the saviour (Messiah) would be descended from him, and that Jesus and his Church (those having faith in Jesus, considered children of Abraham who had faith in God) will bless all the nations, all mankind, during the Millennial Age.

Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.
Notice that God made a promise to Abraham and to "his seed" Jesus, therefore Jesus can't be God. (That's just a comment in passing; let's not start another Trinity discussion!)
 

David in NJ

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That's a mishmash of verses that you've come up with because of your Trinity bias. Just believing in God doesn't save you - all the Jews believed that, but they were under the Law which they could not keep, and none of them were saved. To be more precise (quoting an actual Bible verse), Romans 10:9 (WEB):

(9) that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

There is no requirement to believe that Jesus was God (because he wasn't); the requirement is to believe that he is Lord (our king), and that God raised Jesus from the dead. The Greek words that are translated Lord and God are different. Jesus was not God, he was God's only begotten son.

John 3:18 (WEB):
(18) He who believes in him [God's Son] is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​
1 John 4:9 (WEB):
(9) By this God’s love was revealed in us, that God has sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.​


Galatians 3 (WEB):
(7) Know therefore that those who are of faith, the same are children of Abraham.​
(8) The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.”​
(9) So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.​

The "Gospel" that Jesus died as a sacrifice for all mankind, and has given everyone an opportunity of eternal life, was not the "good news" that was preached to Abraham. As it says, the good news told to Abraham was that in him all the nations would be blessed, that is the saviour (Messiah) would be descended from him, and that Jesus and his Church (those having faith in Jesus, considered children of Abraham who had faith in God) will bless all the nations, all mankind, during the Millennial Age.


Notice that God made a promise to Abraham and to "his seed" Jesus, therefore Jesus can't be God. (That's just a comment in passing; let's not start another Trinity discussion!)
keithr, i never implied that ALL were saved going back to Genesis.

i am only speaking of BELIEVERS/SAINTS/ELECT which began in Genesis with GOD = Abel , Enoch , Noah ...........

Whoever received the Word in faith and walked in the Word was saved by the Word which was God and who became flesh and walked among us.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.


By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
 

Ronald Nolette

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You limit yourself in understanding in the scriptures therefore you will argue based on those limits.
Now you are sinning by using divination to determine what I do or do not know about teh Scriptures.

but Just to tell you a little about myself.

1. bible College Graduate
2. 4 missionary junket trips.
3. Adult Sunday school teacher
4. occasional Christian school teacher
5. Taught on radio.
6. Several dozen pieces in the local newspaper.
7. Adult Sunday School teacher
8. Created curriculum for a Bible Institute
9. Taught in bible College and bible Institute
10. 9 year volunteer chaplain in county jail.
11. bible study leader
12. Adult Sunday school teacher
13. Discipled several individuals.
14. Taught discipleship in four local churches.
15. Funded and ran an emergency food pantry.

forgive my boasting, but I felt it was needed to quell your haughtiness and sin of presumptiousness.

I would gladly put my knowledge of Gods Word any time against yours and see who has studied more to show themselves approved unto God. I have been walking with the Lord for over 49 years and have conservatively studied the NT over 200 times
 

Ronald Nolette

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You need to study more in depth of the entire Scripture beginning with Genesis.
And you need to recant of your sins of presumptiousness and divination.

How long have you been saved and how long have you studied the Scriptures???? I gave you my bio, so whats yours!

But to add to my bio

1. I have used both Hebrew and Greek to study the Testaments.
2. I have defended the faith from JW's, Mormons, Buddhists, Forever Family, Hare Krishnas, Evolutionsts, lose your salvation heretics, as well as others.

How about you and your pretending to know what depth I have studied Scripture. If you defended your position better than just quoting a translation of a translation instead of sinning by pretending to know my knowledge you would fare better before the Lord.
 
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keithr

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keithr, i never implied that ALL were saved going back to Genesis.

i am only speaking of BELIEVERS/SAINTS/ELECT which began in Genesis with GOD = Abel , Enoch , Noah ...........
To clarify, you wrote, in post #442:
Bible Fact: 1 Thess 4:14 Scripture does say 'in Him' = "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus."

The people who Christ resurrects a very specific Group = His Saints/the Elect/His Church all the way back to Genesis.
I (and Ronald) have been saying that nobody is resurrected in the first resurrection (which is what 1 Thess. 4:17 is referring to) except Christians, and that nobody could become a Christian until Jesus started his ministry, when he started baptizing through his disciples - John 4 (WEB):

(1) Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
(2) (although Jesus himself didn’t baptize, but his disciples),​
(3) he left Judea, and departed into Galilee.​

Some might argue that you couldn't become a Christian until Pentecost, after Jesus had sacrificed his life and been resurrected by God, and when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the believers. Either way, none of the Old Testament prophets, up to and including John the Baptist (who Jesus said was the greatest of the prophets - Matthew 11:11), could possibly be members of the Church, and it is only the Church that Jesus returns for. Jesus was speaking to his disciples only when he said, John 14 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.​
(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

The Old Testament prophets were not promised joint heirship with Jesus of his glory, honour and immortality, nor a spirit nature and a home in heaven. Only Christians can become part of the New Creation and the bride of Christ. I'll post and old article about this next.