What is "Parousia"?

[David in NJ]

The Israelites being delivered from their enemies (or from death) does not mean that they will have a part in the first resurrection. The fact that it refers to the Great Tribulation, which occurs after the Church has been resurrected, means that the living Israelites at that time won't have a part in the first resurrection.


This does not say anything about who has a part in the first resurrection, and it certainly doesn't say that anyone from the Old Testament period will have a spiritual nature resurrection and share the Messiah's inheritance as priests and kings in God's kingdom.


Still no indication that people from the Old Testament period will have a part in the first resurrection.


Daniel will be resurrcted and have an inheritance, just like everyone else, but again there is no indication that he will be changed from a human to a new spiritual creation and have a home in heaven with the Messiah and God. That blessing is only available for members of the Church.

Christ's Second Coming occurs after the Tribulation at the 7th and Last Trumpet.

Matt ch24 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 Cor ch15 , Rev 10:7 and OT Prophets

His Second Coming concurs with Matt 23:37-39 and Zechariah ch14 and Daniel ch12

 

[MatthewG]

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Gates of heaven Just a talking over freestyle; concerning Jesus return, resurrected, and what the kingdom of heaven looks like.

 

[keithr]

You said: "The Israelites being delivered from their enemies (or from death) does not mean that they will have a part in the first resurrection."

A.) This is true if they were/are not walking in FAITH to the WORD that was GOD in the Beginning with Genesis and forward.
Hebrews 4:1 - "Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it."

Therefore only those who BELIVEIVED the WORD thru FAITH were saved from Genesis all the way to TODAY.

You're going around in circles - we've already been over this passage (see my post #450 from 4 days ago). The Gospel was not preached to the Israelites that were brought out of Egypt and wandered in the wilderness for forty years (see chapter 3). They were told some "good news" but it was not the same good news that was preached about Jesus, the good news that we can have a spiritual resurrection and become adopted sons of God. Barnes Notes on Hebrews 4:2 says (concerning the KJV):

For unto us was the gospel preached as well as unto them - This translation by no means conveys the sense of the original. According to this it would seem that the “gospel,” as we understand it, or the whole plan of salvation, was communicated to “them,” as well as to “us.” But this is by no means the idea. The discussion has reference only to “the promise of rest,” and the assertion of the apostle is that this “good news” of a promise of rest is made to us as really as it was made to “them.” “Rest” was promised to them in the land of Canaan - an emblem of the eternal rest of the people of God. That was unquestioned, and Paul took it for granted. His object now is, to show that a promise of “rest” is as really made to us as it was to them, and that there is the same danger of failing to secure it as there was then. It was important for him to show that there was such a promise made to the people of God in his time, and as he was discoursing of those who were Hebrews, he of course made his appeal to the Old Testament. The literal translation would be, “For we are evangelized - ἐσμεν εὐηγγελισμένοι esmen euēngelismenoi - as well as they.” The word “evangelize” means to communicate good news, or glad tidings; and the idea here is, that the good news, or glad tidings of “rest” is announced to us as really as it was to them. This the apostle proves in the following verses.​

​

But the word preached - Margin, “Of hearing.” The word “preach” we also use now in a technical sense as denoting a formal proclamation of the gospel by the ministers of religion. But this is not the idea here. It means, simply, the word which “they heard;” and refers particularly to the promise of “rest” which was made to them. That message was communicated to them by Moses.​

​

You said: "The fact that it refers to the Great Tribulation, which occurs after the Church has been resurrected, means that the living Israelites at that time won't have a part in the first resurrection."

B.) This is means they will not have part in the First Resurrection at His Second Coming = TRUE

But they will receive SALVATION in the LORD Jesus Christ = Matthew 23:37-39 and Romans chapter 11

Yes, I agree that the Israelites, like all mankind, will receive salvation from death, and they will be resurrected. But there is a special resurrection for Christians - the first resurrection - and the Israelites do not have a part in that.

 

[keithr]

Christ's Second Coming occurs after the Tribulation at the 7th and Last Trumpet.

So what? The Church is resurrected (the first resurrection) before the Great Tribulation. The timing of Jesus' Second Coming has no bearing on who has a part in the first resurrection (other than if you're still around at that time then you missed having a part in the first resurrection!).

 

[David in NJ]

So what? The Church is resurrected (the first resurrection) before the Great Tribulation. The timing of Jesus' Second Coming has no bearing on who has a part in the first resurrection (other than if you're still around at that time then you missed having a part in the first resurrection!).

All who believed and had faith in the WORD from the Beginning are saved and will be part of the Resurrection of the WORD who was God and became flesh.

just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[David in NJ]

You're going around in circles - we've already been over this passage (see my post #450 from 4 days ago). The Gospel was not preached to the Israelites that were brought out of Egypt and wandered in the wilderness for forty years (see chapter 3). They were told some "good news" but it was not the same good news that was preached about Jesus, the good news that we can have a spiritual resurrection and become adopted sons of God. Barnes Notes on Hebrews 4:2 says (concerning the KJV):

For unto us was the gospel preached as well as unto them - This translation by no means conveys the sense of the original. According to this it would seem that the “gospel,” as we understand it, or the whole plan of salvation, was communicated to “them,” as well as to “us.” But this is by no means the idea. The discussion has reference only to “the promise of rest,” and the assertion of the apostle is that this “good news” of a promise of rest is made to us as really as it was made to “them.” “Rest” was promised to them in the land of Canaan - an emblem of the eternal rest of the people of God. That was unquestioned, and Paul took it for granted. His object now is, to show that a promise of “rest” is as really made to us as it was to them, and that there is the same danger of failing to secure it as there was then. It was important for him to show that there was such a promise made to the people of God in his time, and as he was discoursing of those who were Hebrews, he of course made his appeal to the Old Testament. The literal translation would be, “For we are evangelized - ἐσμεν εὐηγγελισμένοι esmen euēngelismenoi - as well as they.” The word “evangelize” means to communicate good news, or glad tidings; and the idea here is, that the good news, or glad tidings of “rest” is announced to us as really as it was to them. This the apostle proves in the following verses.​

​

But the word preached - Margin, “Of hearing.” The word “preach” we also use now in a technical sense as denoting a formal proclamation of the gospel by the ministers of religion. But this is not the idea here. It means, simply, the word which “they heard;” and refers particularly to the promise of “rest” which was made to them. That message was communicated to them by Moses.​

​

Yes, I agree that the Israelites, like all mankind, will receive salvation from death, and they will be resurrected. But there is a special resurrection for Christians - the first resurrection - and the Israelites do not have a part in that.

i am going forward, whereas you keep going in circles following unbiblical doctrines of men.

Chapter 4 comes AFTER ch3 and says:
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them;
but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
For we who have believed do enter that rest,

SAME as Today = Exactly the SAME = We either believe the WORD in Faith or people perish even though one read God's words everyday.

 

[keithr]

i am going forward, whereas you keep going in circles following unbiblical doctrines of men.

You're repeating the same quotes again, but it doesn't change what they mean.

Chapter 4 comes AFTER ch3

Really? Well I never!

and says:
Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them;
but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
For we who have believed do enter that rest,

SAME as Today = Exactly the SAME = We either believe the WORD in Faith or people perish even though one read God's words everyday.

Believing that verses of Scripture mean something that they don't doesn't save you or qualify you for the a part in the first resurrection. As I said in my previous post, the Gospel preached to the Israelites in the wilderness was not the same Gospel that Christ and the Apostles preached.

You can continue to believe that non-Christians can have a part in the first resurrection if you want, but I can't afford to waste any more time on repeating why I think you're wrong, so I probably won't post any more responses to your posts. (The church that I attend has a visitor from Africa and assisting him and meetings, etc. will be taking up some of my time.)

 

[David in NJ]

You're repeating the same quotes again, but it doesn't change what they mean.


Really? Well I never!


Believing that verses of Scripture mean something that they don't doesn't save you or qualify you for the a part in the first resurrection. As I said in my previous post, the Gospel preached to the Israelites in the wilderness was not the same Gospel that Christ and the Apostles preached.

You can continue to believe that non-Christians can have a part in the first resurrection if you want, but I can't afford to waste any more time on repeating why I think you're wrong, so I probably won't post any more responses to your posts. (The church that I attend has a visitor from Africa and assisting him and meetings, etc. will be taking up some of my time.)

keithr, you cracking me up............with your denial of Truth

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth....."

Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,
saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!
And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage,
how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.
You (keithr) are therefore greatly mistaken.”

 

[David in NJ]

You're repeating the same quotes again, but it doesn't change what they mean.


Really? Well I never!


Believing that verses of Scripture mean something that they don't doesn't save you or qualify you for the a part in the first resurrection. As I said in my previous post, the Gospel preached to the Israelites in the wilderness was not the same Gospel that Christ and the Apostles preached.

You can continue to believe that non-Christians can have a part in the first resurrection if you want, but I can't afford to waste any more time on repeating why I think you're wrong, so I probably won't post any more responses to your posts. (The church that I attend has a visitor from Africa and assisting him and meetings, etc. will be taking up some of my time.)

The Scriptures i repeat to you are necessary for you to SEE

If you cannot SEE from Scripture in Post #488 then you remain in blindness of heart

 

[keithr]

Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand,
saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”
So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Why do you think that that means that Abraham (and other Old Testatment people) will have a part in the first resurrection? This was God's promise to Abraham, Genesis 22:16-18 (WEB):

(16) and said, “I have sworn by myself, says Yahweh, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son,​

(17) that I will bless you greatly, and I will multiply your offspring greatly like the stars of the heavens, and like the sand which is on the seashore. Your offspring will possess the gate of his enemies.​

(18) All the nations of the earth will be blessed by your offspring, because you have obeyed my voice.”​

Paul said, Galatians 3:16 (ASV):

(16) Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.​

So all the nations will be blessed by Christ. Christians (only) have a share in blessing all nations, for they are members of the body of Christ, they are part of that 'one' offspring, Galations 3 (WEB):

(26) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.​

(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.​

(29) If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.​

Nobody in Old Testament times were (or could be) baptized into Christ, and could not become the promised offspring that would bless all nations. The time of blessing the nations is during the Millennial Age, Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

 

[David in NJ]

many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.Why do you think that that means that Abraham (and other Old Testatment people) will have a part in the first resurrection? This was God's promise to Abraham, Genesis 22:16-18 (WEB):

(16) and said, “I have sworn by myself, says Yahweh, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son,​

(17) that I will bless you greatly, and I will multiply your offspring greatly like the stars of the heavens, and like the sand which is on the seashore. Your offspring will possess the gate of his enemies.​

(18) All the nations of the earth will be blessed by your offspring, because you have obeyed my voice.”​

Paul said, Galatians 3:16 (ASV):

(16) Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.​

So all the nations will be blessed by Christ. Christians (only) have a share in blessing all nations, for they are members of the body of Christ, they are part of that 'one' offspring, Galations 3 (WEB):

(26) For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.​

(27) For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.​

(29) If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring and heirs according to promise.​

Nobody in Old Testament times were (or could be) baptized into Christ, and could not become the promised offspring that would bless all nations. The time of blessing the nations is during the Millennial Age, Revelation 20:6 (WEB):

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

A) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
A equals B
B.) But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage,
how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.
You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
A + B = C
C.) many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


C is only possible because of B

B is only possible because of A

A is only possible because of = "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

 

[keithr]

A) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
A equals B

[You somehow managed to misquote what I wrote. The words "many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" was what you wrote, not me.]

A doesn't equal B, but if you are a Christian then you are also heirs according to the promise - the promise that in Abraham's seed the nations would be blessed. Abraham was not promised that he personally would be involved in blessing the nations, the promise to Abraham was that his seed, that is Christ, would bless the nations. As Paul wrote, if you are a Christian then you are considered to be part of Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29) - part of Christ, the body of Christ, with Jesus the head of Christ (anointed). Christ was anointed to be the redeemer and saviour of the world, not Abraham. Abraham was promised land, that he would be the father of many nations and that all nations would be blessed by his seed (Christ).

Paul wrote, Galations 3:16 (KJV):

(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.​

The promise was to Abraham, but also to Abraham's seed - Christ, head and body. Galations 3:27 :

KJV - (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
LSV - (27) Indeed, all of you who were baptized into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah.

Barnes Notes says:

Have put on Christ - That is, they have put on his sentiments, opinions, characteristic traits, etc., as a man clothes himself. This language was common among the ancient writers.​

To put on Christ means to be conformed to Christ's character, to become like Christ, to be one with Christ, which is something that Abraham and the Old Testament times people could not do, because Jesus had not yet come to earth to reveal what he (and God) were like.

B.) But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage,
how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.
You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
A + B = C

What does "A + B = C" mean? Communicate clearly what you are trying to say! The passage you are quoting (Mark 12:26-27) is Jesus answering a specific question about whose wife a woman would be in the resurrection if she had married multiple men before she died. Jesus then commented on the resurrection, because he was speaking to the Sadduces who didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Jesus quoted Exodus 3:6 to make the point that the dead are still in existence, that is their souls are still alive but in a dormant sleeping state (Daniel 12:2 - "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake"), and that God will awake them in the resurrection and give them a new body. As Barnes Notes says:

As touching ... - That is, in proof that the dead are raised.​

​

The passage which he quotes is recorded in Exo 3:6, Exo 3:15, This was at the burning bush (Mark and Luke). Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had been dead for a long time when Moses spoke this - Abraham for 329 years, Isaac for 224 years, and Jacob for 198 years - yet God spake then as being still “their God.” They must, therefore, be still somewhere living, for God is not the God of the dead; that is, it is absurd to say that God rules over those who are “extinct or annihilated,” but he is the God only of those who have an existence. Luke adds, “all live unto him.” That is, all the righteous dead, all of whom he can be properly called their God, live unto his glory. This passage does not prove directly that the dead “body” would be raised, but only by consequence. It proves that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had an existence then, or that their souls were alive. This the Sadducees denied Act 23:8, and this was the main point in dispute. If this was admitted - if there was a state of rewards and punishments - then it would easily follow that the bodies of the dead would be raised.​

But again, what has that got to do with who has a part in the first resurrection rather than the second resurrection?

C.) many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

C is only possible because of B

Yes, people could only visit Abraham if they and Abraham have been resurrected, obviously.

B is only possible because of A

The resurrection is only possible because of Jesus' sacrifice of his life, which is part of his blessing to all nations and makes it possible that everyone can be resurrrected. But the resurrection is not dependent on God having promised Abraham that the Messiah would bless all nations. God simply informed Abraham that all nations would be blessed by one of Abraham's descendants.

A is only possible because of = "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

No, our being heirs with Jesus does not depend on Jesus being God (for he isn't!), nor does it depend on Jesus being with God in the beginning of His creating the universe and all life on earth. Even so, it has nothing to do with determining who can be heirs with Jesus and have a part in the first resurrection.

 

[David in NJ]

[You somehow managed to misquote what I wrote. The words "many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" was what you wrote, not me.]

A doesn't equal B, but if you are a Christian then you are also heirs according to the promise - the promise that in Abraham's seed the nations would be blessed. Abraham was not promised that he personally would be involved in blessing the nations, the promise to Abraham was that his seed, that is Christ, would bless the nations. As Paul wrote, if you are a Christian then you are considered to be part of Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29) - part of Christ, the body of Christ, with Jesus the head of Christ (anointed). Christ was anointed to be the redeemer and saviour of the world, not Abraham. Abraham was promised land, that he would be the father of many nations and that all nations would be blessed by his seed (Christ).

Paul wrote, Galations 3:16 (KJV):

(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.​

The promise was to Abraham, but also to Abraham's seed - Christ, head and body. Galations 3:27 :

KJV - (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
LSV - (27) Indeed, all of you who were baptized into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah.

Barnes Notes says:

Have put on Christ - That is, they have put on his sentiments, opinions, characteristic traits, etc., as a man clothes himself. This language was common among the ancient writers.​

To put on Christ means to be conformed to Christ's character, to become like Christ, to be one with Christ, which is something that Abraham and the Old Testament times people could not do, because Jesus had not yet come to earth to reveal what he (and God) were like.


What does "A + B = C" mean? Communicate clearly what you are trying to say! The passage you are quoting (Mark 12:26-27) is Jesus answering a specific question about whose wife a woman would be in the resurrection if she had married multiple men before she died. Jesus then commented on the resurrection, because he was speaking to the Sadduces who didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead. Jesus quoted Exodus 3:6 to make the point that the dead are still in existence, that is their souls are still alive but in a dormant sleeping state (Daniel 12:2 - "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake"), and that God will awake them in the resurrection and give them a new body. As Barnes Notes says:

As touching ... - That is, in proof that the dead are raised.​

​

The passage which he quotes is recorded in Exo 3:6, Exo 3:15, This was at the burning bush (Mark and Luke). Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had been dead for a long time when Moses spoke this - Abraham for 329 years, Isaac for 224 years, and Jacob for 198 years - yet God spake then as being still “their God.” They must, therefore, be still somewhere living, for God is not the God of the dead; that is, it is absurd to say that God rules over those who are “extinct or annihilated,” but he is the God only of those who have an existence. Luke adds, “all live unto him.” That is, all the righteous dead, all of whom he can be properly called their God, live unto his glory. This passage does not prove directly that the dead “body” would be raised, but only by consequence. It proves that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had an existence then, or that their souls were alive. This the Sadducees denied Act 23:8, and this was the main point in dispute. If this was admitted - if there was a state of rewards and punishments - then it would easily follow that the bodies of the dead would be raised.​

But again, what has that got to do with who has a part in the first resurrection rather than the second resurrection?


Yes, people could only visit Abraham if they and Abraham have been resurrected, obviously.


The resurrection is only possible because of Jesus' sacrifice of his life, which is part of his blessing to all nations and makes it possible that everyone can be resurrrected. But the resurrection is not dependent on God having promised Abraham that the Messiah would bless all nations. God simply informed Abraham that all nations would be blessed by one of Abraham's descendants.


No, our being heirs with Jesus does not depend on Jesus being God (for he isn't!), nor does it depend on Jesus being with God in the beginning of His creating the universe and all life on earth. Even so, it has nothing to do with determining who can be heirs with Jesus and have a part in the first resurrection.

Oh Boy!

You said: "But the resurrection is not dependent on God having promised Abraham that the Messiah would bless all nations."

keithr, do you understand what you just said??? - obviously not

Post #491 contains the Truth that you need to SEE

 

[keithr]

Oh Boy!

You said: "But the resurrection is not dependent on God having promised Abraham that the Messiah would bless all nations."

keithr, do you understand what you just said??? - obviously not

Yes I do understand myself! God didn't promise Abraham that there would be a resurrection, he just said that one of his descendants would bless all nations. God did tell Daniel that the dead would be resurrected (Daniel 12:2), and Hosea (Hosea 13:14) and to others as well I'm sure (I don't have the time to do a thorough search).

 

[David in NJ]

Yes I do understand myself! God didn't promise Abraham that there would be a resurrection, he just said that one of his descendants would bless all nations. God did tell Daniel that the dead would be resurrected (Daniel 12:2), and Hosea (Hosea 13:14) and to others as well I'm sure (I don't have the time to do a thorough search).

Good Morning keithr

This week is Pesach/Passover/Exodus

How did we come to Passover/Exodus in the Scripture?

Where did it Begin?

Does the Passover Story speak of Resurrection?