What Is The Basis Of 'saving' Faith?

[wayofthespirit]

Taking scripture alone, it would seem that whilst what many Christians usually say about other religions is true of those who hear the call of the Gospel message of Christ's sacrificial atonement, those Christians really ought to lay alongside it the scriptural teaching that 'Faith in such as God reveals and requires' of the man who never hears the Gospel message of Christ is accounted to such a man for righteousness.
Hebrews 11 is packed with examples of such faith and many will doubtless say "ah yes but all that was before Christ" but we cannot get away from the fact that Romans 1:17-25 brings the same principal right up to date.

And, to step back a tad from 'scripture alone' it just happens to be a fact that there still remain languages into which the Bible has never been translated, peoples to whom the Gospel has never been preached, and peoples who cannot read, even if they had a bible.
All these people, and more, ought not to be forgotten in our preaching.

Provided they worship the God of whom creation testifies, rather than worshipping created things they have excuse as per Romans 1:17-25, regardless of whether or not they append different names to the creator God than the name that has been told to those who have Bibles to read.

To the Christian that of course does not excuse the followers of other religions who nevertheless have heard and yet still reject the gospel message.

But as I say, it appears from the wider view of Scriptural teaching, that the criterea is 'faith in such as God reveals and requires of a person'.



Faith in the Gospel of Christ’s sacrificial atonement for those who hear it.

'Faith in such as God reveals and requires of a person' for everyone else.

Mike.

 

[wayofthespirit]

I am sufficiently exercised by what seems to me to be the truth in this matter to have posted it on no less than six different forums; three of which ignored the post entirely.

The others produced one response that did no more than throw back a quote from John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” as if to suggest that to cover the subject without attention to the wider issue.

Whereas another completely misunderstood by agreeing with me on the basis of Romans 2:11-15; contending that “There are gentiles which have not the law but still follow the law written in their hearts. Therefore how can a God that shows no partiality condemned them so easily?”



To which I responded:



IMO God does not condemn anyone easily.
Did you ever sing the Sunday school chorus:
"He did not come to judge the world; he did not come to blame.
He did not only come to seek, it was to save he came.
And when we call him Saviour, we call him by his name"

What God does surely is primarily positive, long before it is negative.

As I read it he accounts for righteousness/justifies a person according to their faithful reaction to such as he reveals/requires of them.
In the case of Abraham and Sarah it was faith that they would bring forth a seed against all the odds of nature.
In the case of those who never hear the Gospel Message by virtue of geographic isolation it is faith in the creator as revealed by the message of creation. (Romans 1:17-25)
In the case of all those who do in fact have the Gospel Message revealed to them it is faith in Christ and his sacrificial atonement. (John 3:16)

However in the case of Gentiles described in Romans 2:14-15, other scriptures surely tell us that they would indeed be justified by keeping the law as "written in their hearts" if, in fact they were able to keep the law.

However, both such Gentiles, and those who are Israelites by birth, fail in as much as all sin, and there is none righteous by that route of law keeping, else would Christ never have needed to die.
They still need to be 'justified by faith'......faith in such as God reveals to them.

IMO the issue is clouded by Christendom's failure to appreciate that whereas Christ's atonement is indeed the only way to God, one does not necessarily have to know about it in order for it to be efficacious in respect of those who exercise faith in such as God reveals to them.

We are quite simply far too entrenched in narrowed minded insularity to give attention to the wider universal picture that 'evangelical fundamentalism' seems to ignore.

Mike.

 

[[email protected]]

I am sufficiently exercised by what seems to me to be the truth in this matter to have posted it on no less than six different forums; three of which ignored the post entirely.

The others produced one response that did no more than throw back a quote from John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” as if to suggest that to cover the subject without attention to the wider issue.

Whereas another completely misunderstood by agreeing with me on the basis of Romans 2:11-15; contending that “There are gentiles which have not the law but still follow the law written in their hearts. Therefore how can a God that shows no partiality condemned them so easily?”



To which I responded:



IMO God does not condemn anyone easily.
Did you ever sing the Sunday school chorus:
"He did not come to judge the world; he did not come to blame.
He did not only come to seek, it was to save he came.
And when we call him Saviour, we call him by his name"

What God does surely is primarily positive, long before it is negative.

As I read it he accounts for righteousness/justifies a person according to their faithful reaction to such as he reveals/requires of them.
In the case of Abraham and Sarah it was faith that they would bring forth a seed against all the odds of nature.
In the case of those who never hear the Gospel Message by virtue of geographic isolation it is faith in the creator as revealed by the message of creation. (Romans 1:17-25)
In the case of all those who do in fact have the Gospel Message revealed to them it is faith in Christ and his sacrificial atonement. (John 3:16)

However in the case of Gentiles described in Romans 2:14-15, other scriptures surely tell us that they would indeed be justified by keeping the law as "written in their hearts" if, in fact they were able to keep the law.

However, both such Gentiles, and those who are Israelites by birth, fail in as much as all sin, and there is none righteous by that route of law keeping, else would Christ never have needed to die.
They still need to be 'justified by faith'......faith in such as God reveals to them.

IMO the issue is clouded by Christendom's failure to appreciate that whereas Christ's atonement is indeed the only way to God, one does not necessarily have to know about it in order for it to be efficacious in respect of those who exercise faith in such as God reveals to them.

We are quite simply far too entrenched in narrowed minded insularity to give attention to the wider universal picture that 'evangelical fundamentalism' seems to ignore.

Mike.

Your scriptural revisionism assumes the truth of two false premises;

1. That you can judge every person in present time and in all history as to their experience with and faith in God.
You cannot. Only God and that individual can testify to that.
We do not have the ability nor the mandate to do so.
Therefore your assumption that everyone everywhere is justified by faith is not true, since you are unable to judge what they have accepted or rejected.

2. That the ancient Christian doctrine 'believe and you will be saved' is flawed and needs to be amended.
The post is attempting to explain away the word of God in the same manner as the serpent explained away God's word and command in the garden.

Your statement automatically assumes that everyone has been sealed by faith when in fact the Bible clearly states that all men begin as sinners; enemies of God.
Only those who have made peace with God by faith and accepted His sacrifice in truth and obediance are absolved of sin. The Bible also says that there are few of that sort. Only the blood of Christ can save.

The Bible is VERY CLEAR about the issue of sin and that the world HATES God. Your posts on the other hand would have the reader mistakenly assume that all is well with men and their relationship with God.

One needs to make peace with God.

Man cannot be condemned and justified at the same time. It is a logical impossibility as well as a violation of the word and intent of the Almighty.

You may be well exercised, but you have also forgotten a Biblical caution. On the day a righteous man sins, all his righteousness will be forgotten. I am not here accusing you of sin or even of deliberate misdirection. I am merely asking you to reconsider both the logic and the truth of your assumptions. None of us are secure from error and it is always good to take a second look at our own position.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I'm not entirely sure I understand this correctly,,,,

So what you're saying is that, If you just believe in A God (whoever that might be) is enough for salvation as long as you're not worshiping an Idol. Is that what I'm getting?

Also, this is based on people who believed in God pre Christ (as if there were such a time) are saved apart from Christ (which is and always was impossible)?

Are we talking about Jews? Are we talking about someone who just came to believe in Jesus and then died? Are we talking about Deists or Agnostics?

 

[Paul]

I'm not entirely sure I understand this correctly,,,,

So what you're saying is that, If you just believe in A God (whoever that might be) is enough for salvation as long as you're not worshiping an Idol. Is that what I'm getting?

Also, this is based on people who believed in God pre Christ (as if there were such a time) are saved apart from Christ (which is and always was impossible)?

Are we talking about Jews? Are we talking about someone who just came to believe in Jesus and then died? Are we talking about Deists or Agnostics?

wk, who are you asking?

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

wk, who are you asking?

LOL, I'm asking the OP

 

[wayofthespirit]

How sad.

I'm simple looking at the scriptural position re those people who never get the chance to read a Bible and those who never get the chance to hear the Gospel message.

Evangelical Fundamentalism pretends such people simply do not exist, and is so insular that it adresses the subject on the basis that I'm preaching a modernist Gospel in respect of the position of people who have had access to a bible and have heard and rejected the Gospel message.

It's like arguing that two apples don't equal three hammers because my Gradma doesn't ride a bike.

 

[fivesense]

Taking scripture alone, it would seem that whilst what many Christians usually say about other religions is true of those who hear the call of the Gospel message of Christ's sacrificial atonement, those Christians really ought to lay alongside it the scriptural teaching that 'Faith in such as God reveals and requires' of the man who never hears the Gospel message of Christ is accounted to such a man for righteousness.
Faith in the Gospel of Christ’s sacrificial atonement for those who hear it.
'Faith in such as God reveals and requires of a person' for everyone else.
Mike.

It is the desire to cast off the confines of God's revealed word in order to develope private opinions about His operations that leads to the mess we have here. God has spoken, we must believe. If He says there is only one name under heaven by which men can be saved, then it is so. The ins and outs of how the Lord is going to do this, save all men, is outlined in Paul's letters, and especially in 1 Corinthinans 15. He told Timothy that this truth that he preached everywhere, that the Lord is the Savior of all men, specially of them that believe, caused him great suffering and reproach. Those who deny the verity of it are walking in darkness and the light to illuminate such a grand truth is absent by reason of unbelief.
I sympathize with you wayofthespirit, and the condemnation of those who do not hear or receive the message of the cross is certain. It is the times of the Gentiles and the elect Body of Christ is being formed, and no man is able to accept or choose Christ without the Father first approving it to accord with His plan to dispay grace and mercy without merit. Those who believe they "chose" or "accepted" Christ are boasting in the flesh, and are ignorant of who they really are and what they are made of. It is impossible to know God without His direct intervention and election.

The difficulty you have is no doubt connected to the "eternal damnation" heresy that is paraded as truth, and has been since Catholicism began implementing it for control purposes. If it were not for the facts, the truth of the Scriptures, such a lie would be impossible to defeat. As it is, the enemy has great power over the souls of many through skillful manipulation in the minds of men.

Christ will subdue all things unto Himself, whether they be on the earth or in heaven, and after doing that, for however long it takes, He will give up His reign to His Father and subject Himself to Him, that His Father may be All in all. God loses nothing, and the enemy gets nothing. The fate of the unsaved and ignorant is condemnation and the second death, the lake of fire. It has no time table attached to it other than God abolishes sin and death at some point, and the lake of fire must necessarily cease to exist. A thousand years? five thousand? ten thousand? it does not say how long the condemned of the second death remain dead, but it does say that all will be made alive in Christ, just as surely as all died in Adam. And it is inevitable that the Father's will to become All in all will come to pass.

So do not concern yourself with the fate of those who have not heard the gospel, or the message of the cross, the only power of salvation at work in the earth today. He is the Saviour of all men, specially them that believe.

I know you are given to avoid relying upon the Holy Writings for truth, and prefer to listen to your soul, as it tries to imitate the Spirit of God in its own strength. That is fine, for freedom Christ frees us. But unless you except the Divine Record as having the final say in all matters spiritual, these types of messes will follow you everywhere you go.

fivesense

 

[wayofthespirit]

Fivesense,
The Bible surely exists for the benefit of those who are able to read it rather than for the benefit of those cannot.
For that reason the vast majority of its content concerns those can read it, and only a small amount concerns those who cannot,
However two passages refer to the place in God's plan for those who cannot read about it.
One is Romans1:17-25, and the other is almost the entire chapter of Hebrews 11.
My interest in this thread is to widen insular restriction that ignores the exististence of people who never will be able to read a Bible and/or hear the Gospel message.
The fact that the Bible mainly concerns itself with those who can and will read it, does not prove that those who cannot and do not read it do not exist.
For heavens sake listen to what I'm saying and stop refuting positions which I am not addressing.
Otherwise Peace be with you......Mike

 

[fivesense]

Fivesense,
The Bible surely exists for the benefit of those who are able to read it rather than for the benefit of those cannot.
For that reason the vast majority of its content concerns those can read it, and only a small amount concerns those who cannot,
However two passages refer to the place in God's plan for those who cannot read about it.
One is Romans1:17-25, and the other is almost the entire chapter of Hebrews 11.
My interest in this thread is to widen insular restriction that ignores the exististence of people who never will be able to read a Bible and/or hear the Gospel message.
The fact that the Bible mainly concerns itself with those who can and will read it, does not prove that those who cannot and do not read it do not exist.
For heavens sake listen to what I'm saying and stop refuting positions which I am not addressing.
Otherwise Peace be with you......Mike

I sense you are not able to endure the liberty of others to address you in spiritual matters, things which concern all, and though you may consider your post to be controlled by you and within your purview alone, you will find a larger portion of life available to you should you find grace for others to examine you according to the light which they have received. What God is seeking to uncover at any particular time, and for who, is difficult to know. Others may benefit from what appears to be extraneous to you. Since it is your wish to preclude that type of activity, I will certainly oblige you, and grace be to you.

fivesense

 

[Paul]

fivesense


You sure have twisted theology; you better check which spirit you are learning from.