What is the one true Church?

[Grailhunter]

I think you should have said, Paul did not say, keep the Sabbath holy. The reason he didn't say that was likely (not wanting to read his mind) , because he didn't need to. The Sabbath was well known among the entire middle east as a Jewish tradition. The Jewish converts themselves didn't need to be told. The Gentile converts didn't need to be told. The Christian church for those first few centuries observed the Sabbath.
The silence of scriptures regarding the protests of the new Jewish converts regarding the sudden abandonment of the day their entire culture (except in times of apostasy) held in reverence for thousands of years, as well as the silence of scripture regarding a "thus sayeth the Lord" will echo throughout eternity.

The Saturday Jewish Sabbath and the Sunday Lord's Day.

Really nothing in history changes like a switch. Speaking here mostly of the first century.
The Jewish Christians considered The Way....Christianity as an extension of Judaism.
Some of the Jewish converts only observed the Saturday Jewish Sabbath and some just the Lord's Day and some both.
The Jewish Christians were allowed in the Temple so they could worship there. Observation of the Mosaic Law is a study because things were changing.

The Pagan converts to Christianity...the Gentiles, mostly just observed the Lord's day. They were not allowed "inside" the Temple. After 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple....Everything was in disarray for everybody, Jews, Jewish-Christians, Gentile Christians.

 

[Grailhunter]

Christianizing the Old Testament

Part of the reason that people have Christianized the Old Testament is to simply make it more Christian. Sometimes they just pretend things were different in the past to make is seem more like modern Christian beliefs.

One of the reasons they think they can do this is that they do not realize how different ancient Judaism and Jewish culture is to modern Christianity….so they think it only takes a little tweaking to make it more Christian.

Another reason they think they can do this is because they do not understand the 613 Laws of Moses.

A lot of times the driving force behind this is that they want to mix Judaism with Christianity…..in other words make the Bible seem like one religion so they want the Old Testament to be more Christian.

To do this they pretend things were different in the Old Testament than what they actually were or completely ignore scriptures or explain away scriptures.

Some examples; Like with this topic here, they want to believe that engraved images were not forbidden.

Examples of other things that some Christians want to believe…..

That….polygamy and concubinage was uncommon and really a sin in the Old Testament.

Or that somewhere there is a scripture that said to stop polygamy and concubinage.

Or that early Christians did not practice polygamy and concubinage.

Or that women were not considered property.

A statement here; The preferred age for females to get married was before they started to menstruate. The Hebrew-Israelites were big on only marrying virgins…considering them clean and their womb undefiled….Christians do not like the idea of children marrying and rightly so….but it was the custom of the time.

Or that good people went to heaven before the New Testament.

Or that bad people went to hell before the New Testament.

Or that Shoal was not a place for souls or stopped being a place for souls.

Or that wedding ceremonies were required in the Bible, so wedding ceremonies were common and how people got married.

Or that the people in the Bible really did not think that the world was flat.

Or that the prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament were really about a God Messiah…instead of a human warlord king Messiah.

Or that Yeshua did not tell the slaves to obey their masters.

Or that there was not a difference between the Jewish-Christian and Gentile-Christians beliefs.

Or that Christians are suppose to observe the Mosaic Laws.

Then some things are ignored like some of the aspects of the Mosaic Law that would seem cruel by modern Christian standards…like the Law that allowed a father to sell his daughter into concubinage or the Law that allowed a new bride to be killed if she did not bleed on her wedding night….failing the virgin test so to speak….or killing some women that were raped if they were betrothed or married ….forcing single women to marry their rapists or God commanding the Israelites to kill all that breathed….well everybody but the virgins which they forced to marry them…..or the Hebrew adultery test for women.

 

[Brakelite]

The Saturday Jewish Sabbath and the Sunday Lord's Day.

Mmm. We have scripture to support the 7th day Sabbath. I see nothing in scripture to suggest, support, or hint at a Sunday Lord's Day. Jesus said He was the Lord of the Sabbath. That makes the Sabbath the Lord's Day. Unless of course you choose to go elsewhere for your authority changing the day... Like Rome for example.

 

[Taken]

Laughing….
Watching the same old, same old……

“If one can dream up enough names to call you”… “They must be Right…regardless of the Scriptural Facts”!!

That method is as old as the day a handful of Gentiles established Catholicism.

 

[Brakelite]

Which makes YOU accountable for your soul

Ummm, no. This time you are wrong. We are called to faith...the just shall live by faith. This it becomes God's responsibility to prepare me for whatever is to come. Not that I don't have a role to play. God cannot sanctify me unless I am willing to read scripture, for Jesus prayed that His Father would sanctify His children through the truth... His word being truth. Second, the holy Spirit cannot correct me if I do not make myself available for correction. How can He teach me if I don't read and study?
Prayer is also my responsibility. That's what relationship is all about... Prayer from me to God... Response from God through His word. And not only through His word. Through other believers... Through dreams and visions... Through the guiding and leading of angels... Through Providence... Through nature. God can and does use all manner of means by which to love and mature and teach His children. But at no time will any of it be contrary to His written word. The scriptures are the final arbiter and safeguard against all deception. If we obey and follow that word, God cannot condemn us.
God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,—not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support. Not a thus sayeth me.

 

[Ziggy]

I will try to keep it short.

The thing is here is that I am a Jew, as in regards to many idiots I have came across, even tho I said that I am a truly born a gain Christian !
To them they can not see that I am a Christian ? as they and many reject such ? They are idolising Jews totally ! but can not see me ?
For they are idolise the wrong Jews in fact ! Why because they do not know Christ Jesus in fact, for they have another as an Idol ?
For if they were truly born again they could see Jesus is here ! he lives in you and you in him ? = your Saved !

But if one is seeking God ? your not Saved are you ? because one does not know Christ Jesus !

We never said something a stupid as "Judah Christian" before the 1990's as Christian will Suffice ! as we do not need to bring up such as we know the blueprint their of better than any fool Jew. and Jews now are Fools in fact, for they know not in fact, for they are lost !
So why call the Lost in a higher standing ! as in Judah Christian values ? one may say ? but no, It's Christian values and the blue print goes without saying in fact.
So what I am pointing out is a deception ! no one says Judah Christian values unless they are not worthy of Christ Jesus in fact, for they are putting the cart before the horse.
For why would and Christian mention Judah ? for they are behind us, because they lack Grace in fact and they are a curse, as is anyone who is not truly Saved. for they know not Christ Jesus in fact.

Look the first Christians were Jews in fact and then the Goyim came in.
The First Christians were worthy of God and all were Jews, but the Jews who were not worthy were lead astray as you should know all that. As They were the Golden Calf Mob Moloch etc etc not worthy of God at all in fact, if you were to believe Holy Moses ? but such as I am on about are not worthy of Moses in fact ! And that's why you do not put Judah above Christianity because when one does such they are on another path that is bastardising Christianity in fact !

The Jews never knew God and only them Jews that were Jesus Disciples came to know Christ Jesus when he went to Heaven in fact and their is the first Christians right their, born again in fact ! They knew him ! and no one comes to the Father but through is only begotten Son ! That's a fact ! That's the Key ! Religion never Saved anyone's Soul.
Religion does not Save, only Christ Jesus Saves in fact !

Christ Jesus lives in you and you in him, from that point on that you are truly Saved, you need not the 2ed coming because such a one who is Saved can not be saved twice ? No ! it's the others that will be saved at the end of days who survive it. why, because all of the deceptions and delusions will be burnt up, so such is gone, the delusions of such temptations do not hold sway for they will be seen for what they truly all are.
That's how one who is truly born again sees such now. and as such. John 15:5. And you know that Christ Jesus is the Vine and only abide in him only !
Them Jews were cut off because they were lead astray from God for they had been lead by the ones who crept in unawares !

A Christian should not get the Jews mixed up with the so called Jews, as the Bible pointes out in fact.
That not all who say they are Jews are Not ! as does it say, not all Christians are worthy of Christ in fact ! for Jesus said, he never knew them.

Here let Christ Jesus help you.

Sorry I haven't replied sooner. Having trouble with my knee and sitting in a chair. I'm not ignoring you, just it hurts to sit for any length of time.
I believe God has plans for everyne, even those who aren't looking for him.
I say Judeao-Christian because the site I watch call themselves Judeao-Christians.
To me that means they don't disregard the teachings of the OT while adhereing to the NT.
A lot of Christians toss out the OT and I believe this is their loss. The foundation of Christianity has it's roots in Judaism.

A lot of people are not what they claim to be. God knows who are his.
Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Mat 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

The Lord will sort it out.
Hugs
Thank you for your patience

 

[Taken]

Christianizing the Old Testament

Part of the reason that people have Christianized the Old Testament is to simply make it more Christian. Sometimes they just pretend things were different in the past to make is seem more like modern Christian beliefs.

One of the reasons they think they can do this is that they do not realize how different ancient Judaism and Jewish culture is to modern Christianity….so they think it only takes a little tweaking to make it more Christian.

Another reason they think they can do this is because they do not understand the 613 Laws of Moses.

A lot of times the driving force behind this is that they want to mix Judaism with Christianity…..in other words make the Bible seem like one religion so they want the Old Testament to be more Christian.

To do this they pretend things were different in the Old Testament than what they actually were or completely ignore scriptures or explain away scriptures.

Some examples; Like with this topic here, they want to believe that engraved images were not forbidden.

Examples of other things that some Christians want to believe…..

That….polygamy and concubinage was uncommon and really a sin in the Old Testament.

Or that somewhere there is a scripture that said to stop polygamy and concubinage.

Or that early Christians did not practice polygamy and concubinage.

Or that women were not considered property.

A statement here; The preferred age for females to get married was before they started to menstruate. The Hebrew-Israelites were big on only marrying virgins…considering them clean and their womb undefiled….Christians do not like the idea of children marrying and rightly so….but it was the custom of the time.

Or that good people went to heaven before the New Testament.

Or that bad people went to hell before the New Testament.

Or that Shoal was not a place for souls or stopped being a place for souls.

Or that wedding ceremonies were required in the Bible, so wedding ceremonies were common and how people got married.

Or that the people in the Bible really did not think that the world was flat.

Or that the prophecies about the Messiah in the Old Testament were really about a God Messiah…instead of a human warlord king Messiah.

Or that there was not a difference between the Jewish-Christian and Gentile-Christians beliefs.

Or that Christians are suppose to observe the Mosaic Laws.

Then some things are ignored like some of the aspects of the Mosaic Law that would seem cruel by modern Christian standards…like the Law that allowed a father to sell his daughter into concubinage or the Law that allowed a new bride to be killed if she did not bleed on her wedding night….failing the virgin test so to speak….or killing some women that were raped if they were betrothed or married ….forcing single women to marry their rapists or God commanding the Israelites to kill all that breathed….well everybody but the virgins which they forced to marry them…..or the Hebrew adultery test for women.

The OLD Testament was befitting a new creation of mankind….babes….with a list of rules/ laws/ precepts….same as a parent establishes a set of rules for their ignorant, vulnerable, inexperienced children.

After 4,000 years….a New BETTER Testament was Offered FOR Adults who have Surpassed the Beginning BABY, Childish, Ignorant, Rebellious, Tantrum Stage.

OT… Teaching, Repetitions, Practice, Trust, Believe… is the Baby walk to prepare an individual to be informed and prepared to Freely MAKE a Commitment or Freely Reject.

The OT was all about YOU Personally…obey the Rules/Laws;
And WHEN your Body Physically Dies….
The Lord God SHALL THEN SAVE You.

The N (better) T… IS all about an ALREADY SAVED man. Who has Heard, Learned, Freely Chosen To Commit and Become MADE SAVED (by the Offering and Power of God IN that man) and IS Prepared and Willing To be a Servant of God …SENT out with the Word of God IN his heart, his Mouth, to Share with Any ears willing to Hear.

OT…offering…shall be Saved.
NT…offering …is Saved.

* Individual men are At a liberty to Freely accept EITHER Offering.

The corrupt teaching; OF men…IS:
If a man Accepts The New (better) Testament Offering to BE MADE SAVED…the OT Rules/Laws STILL APPLY!

No.
A Forever Lasting Relationship has been Established between that individual man AND The Lord God.

Following OT LAW…is Following, Practicing, Preparing to Establish a relationship with the Lord God.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of abetter testament.

 

[Grailhunter]

Mmm. We have scripture to support the 7th day Sabbath. I see nothing in scripture to suggest, support, or hint at a Sunday Lord's Day. Jesus said He was the Lord of the Sabbath. That makes the Sabbath the Lord's Day. Unless of course you choose to go elsewhere for your authority changing the day... Like Rome for example.

There are several Christian denominations that observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath. It does not matter what day you observe as a day of worship, Christians worship Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Then also there is no biblical reason to observe the Lord's Day or to require wedding ceremonies to be married, not to have several wives and concubines and fields full of slaves.

The Bible only people have a tendency to believe that Sunday worship, wedding ceremonies, are biblical and prohibitions against having several wives and concubines and slaves are biblical...but they are not. These are things that the Holy Spirit taught Christians along the way.

 

[Illuminator]

The OLD Testament was befitting a new creation of mankind….babes….with a list of rules/ laws/ precepts….same as a parent establishes a set of rules for their ignorant, vulnerable, inexperienced children.

After 4,000 years….a New BETTER Testament was Offered FOR Adults who have Surpassed the Beginning BABY, Childish, Ignorant, Rebellious, Tantrum Stage.

OT… Teaching, Repetitions, Practice, Trust, Believe… is the Baby walk to prepare an individual to be informed and prepared to Freely MAKE a Commitment or Freely Reject.

The OT was all about YOU Personally…obey the Rules/Laws;
And WHEN your Body Physically Dies….
The Lord God SHALL THEN SAVE You.

The N (better) T… IS all about an ALREADY SAVED man. Who has Heard, Learned, Freely Chosen To Commit and Become MADE SAVED (by the Offering and Power of God IN that man) and IS Prepared and Willing To be a Servant of God …SENT out with the Word of God IN his heart, his Mouth, to Share with Any ears willing to Hear.

OT…offering…shall be Saved.
NT…offering …is Saved.

* Individual men are At a liberty to Freely accept EITHER Offering.

The corrupt teaching; OF men…IS:
If a man Accepts The New (better) Testament Offering to BE MADE SAVED…the OT Rules/Laws STILL APPLY!

No.
A Forever Lasting Relationship has been Established between that individual man AND The Lord God.

Following OT LAW…is Following, Practicing, Preparing to Establish a relationship with the Lord God.

Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of abetter testament.

Rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin is a man made tradition. This has been explained to you repeatedly, but you keep stubbornly resisting what has been consistently taught for 2000 years because YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT.

To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin

The Church’s teaching on infant baptism flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism. Click here for an explanation.

www.catholic.com

 

[Illuminator]

Then also there is no biblical reason to observe the Lord's Day or to require wedding ceremonies to be married, not to have several wives and concubines and fields full of slaves.

Sure, if one is a liberal relativist.

 

[Grailhunter]

Rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin is a man made tradition. This has been explained to you repeatedly, but you keep stubbornly resisting what has been consistently taught for 2000 years because YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT.

To Explain Infant Baptism You Must Explain Original Sin

The Church’s teaching on infant baptism flows from the Church’s teachings on original sin and the sacrament of baptism. Click here for an explanation.

www.catholic.com

2000 years?
Original Sin came from the fertile mind of St. Augustine, as in manure.
Original Sin....The belief began to emerge in the 3rd century, but only became fully formed with the writings of Augustine of Hippo (354–430), who was the first author to use the phrase "original sin" (Latin: peccatum originale).

Augustine the author of hatred toward women and sex.......contagious sin transferred by sex! Genius! More like contagious insanity that infected the Church.

 

[Taken]

Rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin is a man made tradition.

Man made Tradition to reject the Doctrine of Original Sin?

And? While you Accuse me….you forgot to give a basis For YOUR Accusation…!!

Try Again…Quote me making a Statement about Original Sin….and thereafter address my Statement.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sure, if one is a liberal relativist.

Name calling when you know you cannot find it in the Bible.....what do you call that?
You just quoted part of what I said to misrepresent me and the truth.
As I said the Holy Sprite taught us that weddings were good and polygamy and slavery was wrong.
And it was not the Catholic Church that taught Christianity these things it was others that the Holy Spirt worked through.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is that taught in the catechism?

By the way, is there an online catechism wherein users can type in a word and then click "search" to find it in the catechism?

From the Catechism:

ARTICLE 1
THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

1256 The ordinary ministers of baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of baptism for salvation.

Here are 2 links to online Catechisms of the Catholic Church:
Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church - Table of Contents with Paragraph Numbers
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

 

[BreadOfLife]

Even their pictures of Jesus with long hair, portrays to the world that he brings dishonor to his Fathers name 1Cor 11:14--It is a dishonor for an Israelite male to have long hair. The only exceptions were the Nazarites,( Samson) not Nazarenes. Simple bible milk yet they cant even understand that after 17 or 18 centuries. Does one really want to put their eternal lives into the hands that cannot even understand simple bible milk?

Did Paul say HOW long was considered “Long”>?
NO.

This is the problem with Sola Scripturists who think they can glean everything about the Israelites culture from 2000 years ago just from what is written in Scripture.
You guys always ignore tradition, history and archaeology in favor if this fallacy.

Middle Eastern carvings and Egyptian tomb paintings show Jews with what would be considered “long hair” today. Whereas, men wore their hear down to the shoulders – women wore their hair down to the waist in many cases. THAT is the difference that Paul is referring to.

The depictions of Jesus with hair down to his shoulders comes largely from the image on the Shroud of Turin, where the hair is clearly shoulder-length.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Interesting. A typical protestant apologetic for disobeying the 4th commandment which your own church in the past has condemned as unbiblical having no real foundation in scripture, those scriptures you quoted not saying what you want them to say.

We’ve gone round and round on this topic – as YOU are a theological “One-Trinck-Pony”.

You refuse to accept that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath – even though the Scriptures tell us that He DID. The Jewish Sabbath was a SHADOW of the Reality that is Christ, who is LORD of the Sabbath. (Matt. 12:1–8, Mark 2:23–28, Luke 6:1–5).

As long as you reject this fact – you will always be an adherend of SDA fallacies . . .

 

[Keiw]

Did Paul say HOW long was considered “Long”>?
NO.

This is the problem with Sola Scripturists who think they can glean everything about the Israelites culture from 2000 years ago just from what is written in Scripture.
You guys always ignore tradition, history and archaeology in favor if this fallacy.

Middle Eastern carvings and Egyptian tomb paintings show Jews with what would be considered “long hair” today. Whereas, men wore their hear down to the shoulders – women wore their hair down to the waist in many cases. THAT is the difference that Paul is referring to.

The depictions of Jesus with hair down to his shoulders comes largely from the image on the Shroud of Turin, where the hair is clearly shoulder-length.

That is not the real shroud.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is not the real shroud.

We can get into a long debate as to why you’re WRONG about that – but, for the sake of this argument – let’s just assume you’re correct.

What do you do with the archaeological evidence from Middle Eastern carvings and Egyptian tomb paintings?

 

[Grailhunter]

We can get into a long debate as to why you’re WRONG about that – but, for the sake of this argument – let’s just assume you’re correct.

What do you do with the archaeological evidence from Middle Eastern carvings and Egyptian tomb paintings?

But we are talking about the Hebrew Bible and the Israelites....in that time period.
The Mosaic Law forbid the making of any type of image of anything. That is the way the Israelites understood it and that is the way they practiced it....unless God told them to make an image. Yahweh being God He had that authority.

The Christians that want to Christianize the Old Testament are going to say that the Israelites did not understand their own religion.
And this is one of the reasons I say, although Judaism is not our religion and the Mosaic Law does not pertain to Christians, there are things about Judaism that you have to understand to understand Christianity. False teachings and teachers.....if you do not understand the Mosaic Law and culture of the Israelites there are people that will try to pull the wool over your eyes because of your lack of knowledge.

Of course God did not want the Israelites to worship other gods but also did not want them to the make images of anything in the first place because if it existed someone could come along and worship it. This is good to know for Christians but it does not pertain to Christians as images alone....of course we are not to make an image to worship it, even Christian images are not to be worshipped. But the crosses and statues and paintings in churches are not a violation.

Even the Jews as time went on has relaxed this prohibition.

 

[Brakelite]

We’ve gone round and round on this topic – as YOU are a theological “One-Trinck-Pony”.

You refuse to accept that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath – even though the Scriptures tell us that He DID. The Jewish Sabbath was a SHADOW of the Reality that is Christ, who is LORD of the Sabbath. (Matt. 12:1–8, Mark 2:23–28, Luke 6:1–5).

As long as you reject this fact – you will always be an adherend of SDA fallacies . . .

It's interesting that you quote the scriptures pertaining to the same incident 3 times. And yet not one of them is saying what you claim. Where does the scripture say Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath?
Since when has the word fulfill meant changed, altered, switched, abrogated, cancelled, adjusted, or finished? In the sermon on the mount Jesus said He didn't come to do away with the law, but to fulfill. I would very much like you to reason this in a way that defends your contrary take on the concept of fulfilling.
So long as I reject this fact? Really? As if I am the one who is acting contrary to scripture? A "fact" doesn't become a fact as a result of repeated assertions. Why would I not reject something that you've made up? Sunday 'sacredness' and the rejection of the 4th commandment as written by the finger of God is a Catholic tradition with no foundation in scripture, and Protestant loyalty to Sunday is an act of submission to Catholic authority, not scriptural authority.

The council of Trent settled the argument in favor of the Catholic Church that tradition superceded scripture by clarifying the fact that it was the Catholic Church that changed the day from the 7th day to the first day. This gave Catholics the upper hand against the Protestants who were promoting Sola scriptura, the Protestants themselves holding to tradition contrary to the scriptures in their observance of the 1st day of the week, Sunday. You can read all about it by googling Council of Trent, Archbishop Gaspare Ricciullo del Fosso . Read his speech and how he confirmed tradition as the superior source and standard for faith and practice for the Catholic Church.
Your pretensions that Sunday sacredness or rest and the cessation of the Sabbath are based on scripture are just that.... Pretensions, and your own church admits as much in it's most prestigious council.