What is the purpose of Grace?

[amigo de christo]

SMH

and we both know that those inclusivians FAIL to HONOR THE SON .
CALLING GOD a liar does not honor HIM . GOD t estified on THE SON , not on false hic inclusivity .
Making void the gospel , the dire necessity to have to BELIEVE ON JESUS , DOES NOT HONOR THE SON NOR THE FATHER .

 

[Episkopos]

I don’t see any insults here. I suppose it's by the voice in your head you read it by.
Matt.6:22 "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

If YOU see THIS as insults, how is it that you NEVER point out Amigo's insults against Epi? Where is the balance?? Who is judging and from where??

Well, if the accusations were balanced they wouldn't be hypocrisy would they? The ego doesn't get off on balance.

 

[Laurina]

Well, if the accusations were balanced they wouldn't be hypocrisy would they? The ego doesn't get off on balance.

True!

 

[amigo de christo]

SMH

If one beleives NOT God , not on HIS CHRIST , then how is their faith REALLY IN GOD .
And how is it that a man can please GOD , IF HE HAS NOT FAITH , does not BELEIVE HIM .
And the answer is , THEY CANNOT please GOD . for it is FAITH that pleases GOD .
All that other stuff is , IS in vain , does call GOD a liar and basically says , HEY HUMANITY WE CAN DO THIS
without Faith . We can attain righteousness without FAITH . THAT IS A LIE .
Because so what if one can do some good deeds , IF THEY CALL GOD A LIAR , how on earth is that HOLY , RIGHTEOUS or TRUE .
IF a man will NOT BELIEVE GOD then that man HAS NO FAITH . Not in GOD anway but in themselves they do have faith .
AND that is a big big mistake and so deadly it truly is ..............
REMEMBER , the devil can use scrip but he does so to plant only a lie .
UNBELEIF . To NOT BELEIVE GOD but rather him . A lie .
And now a huge lie is being accepted by even more and more in christendom .
THE LIE that calls itself love and cliams OH its NOT necessary to have had to BELIEVE ON JESUS .
BUT JESUS SAID IT WAS NECESSARY .
SO NECESSARY in fact HE SAID THE ONLY CONDMENATION ONE HAS is HE WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT .
And they say oH ITS OKAy if one believes NOT . someone lied to them . someone and something has LIED TO THEM ALL .
As for me and for the sheep , WE BELIEVE GOD , thus we BELEIVE HIS CHRIST , and thus WE POINT TO HIS CHRIST
For without Christ no man can attain to the righteousness of GOD .
And he who believes not the testimony that GOD gave of the SON , he is not attain ing righteousness in other ways ,
OH NO NO NO , HE CALLS GOD A LIAR . and HOW RIGHTEOUS IS THAT . exactly . WE shall preach JESUS sister .
And point to HIM and not to man .

 

[Wrangler]

I discuss ideas.I discuss doctrine. If a person is being dishonest...I will point that out. If a person is claiming things that are not true....I will point that out.

In my experience, people are primarily dishonest with themselves. Lying to others is merely a consequence.

The dishonesty is most obviously shown by not answering a question that reveals their error. Therefore, sharing something that one believes is true but is actually false is easy to resolve among truth seekers. When one emotionally invests in an idea - be it political or religious - their ego gets involved and they often don’t hesitate to be dishonest. Again, most sadly shown by ignoring what doesn’t support their idea. A great example is the evolution of feminism.

1. FIRST WAVE. Men and women are equal.
2. Equal pay for equal work.
3. SECOND WAVE. Equal pay for unequal work.
4. Believe her! (These egalitarians claim unequal believability)
5. THIRD WAVE. A Supreme Court nominee, nominated because she’s a woman, could not define what a woman is.

 

[Lizbeth]

If one beleives NOT God , not on HIS CHRIST , then how is their faith REALLY IN GOD .
And how is it that a man can please GOD , IF HE HAS NOT FAITH , does not BELEIVE HIM .
And the answer is , THEY CANNOT please GOD . for it is FAITH that pleases GOD .
All that other stuff is , IS in vain , does call GOD a liar and basically says , HEY HUMANITY WE CAN DO THIS
without Faith . We can attain righteousness without FAITH . THAT IS A LIE .
Because so what if one can do some good deeds , IF THEY CALL GOD A LIAR , how on earth is that HOLY , RIGHTEOUS or TRUE .
IF a man will NOT BELIEVE GOD then that man HAS NO FAITH . Not in GOD anway but in themselves they do have faith .
AND that is a big big mistake and so deadly it truly is ..............
REMEMBER , the devil can use scrip but he does so to plant only a lie .
UNBELEIF . To NOT BELEIVE GOD but rather him . A lie .
And now a huge lie is being accepted by even more and more in christendom .
THE LIE that calls itself love and cliams OH its NOT necessary to have had to BELIEVE ON JESUS .
BUT JESUS SAID IT WAS NECESSARY .
SO NECESSARY in fact HE SAID THE ONLY CONDMENATION ONE HAS is HE WILL NOT COME TO THE LIGHT .
And they say oH ITS OKAy if one believes NOT . someone lied to them . someone and something has LIED TO THEM ALL .
As for me and for the sheep , WE BELIEVE GOD , thus we BELEIVE HIS CHRIST , and thus WE POINT TO HIS CHRIST
For without Christ no man can attain to the righteousness of GOD .
And he who believes not the testimony that GOD gave of the SON , he is not attain ing righteousness in other ways ,
OH NO NO NO , HE CALLS GOD A LIAR . and HOW RIGHTEOUS IS THAT . exactly . WE shall preach JESUS sister .
And point to HIM and not to man .

Amen. Jesus is THE way and the life and the truth. There is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. This doesn't leave room for anyone to be saved by their own name and their own way.

 

[Episkopos]

In my experience, people are primarily dishonest with themselves. Lying to others is merely a consequence.

The dishonesty is most obviously shown by not answering a question that reveals their error. Therefore, sharing something that one believes is true but is actually false is easy to resolve among truth seekers. When one emotionally invests in an idea - be it political or religious - their ego gets involved and they often don’t hesitate to be dishonest. Again, most sadly shown by ignoring what doesn’t support their idea. A great example is the evolution of feminism.

1. FIRST WAVE. Men and women are equal.
2. Equal pay for equal work.
3. SECOND WAVE. Equal pay for unequal work.
4. THIRD WAVE. A Supreme Court nominee, nominated because she’s a woman, could not define what a woman is.

Very true. Our own 3rd wave in the churches is...cannot define what a saint is. As in...it's whatever you think it means. Religious hubris.

 

[ProDeo]

In my experience, people are primarily dishonest with themselves. Lying to others is merely a consequence.

Christians excluded.

 

[Scooter Jackson]

Very few see the need (the dire need) to be crucified and broken by the power of the cross. But without that breaking we remain a sinner just as before.

If a man purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 2 Timothy 2:21

 

[Scooter Jackson]

Very true. Our own 3rd wave in the churches is...cannot define what a saint is. As in...it's whatever you think it means. Religious hubris.

Yeah well Rome will let you know who the saints are!

 

[ProDeo]

So THATS why episkopos goes into every thread she starts or frequents and seeks her out to argue over everything she says? Because he has a personal problem with her? That explains a lot. I wondered why he chases her down like that every morning! Why he barely ever goes into any thread unless SHE is there…
I guess I just didn’t see it because of wonky discernment.

It's how Bible forums work, read threads about the end time, you will meet the same persons, same with an OSAS vs NOSAS thread, same persons battling for years, same with subjects about the RCC. As it is with topics about sin and victory over sin, I have a vested interest in that. Don't know why. But when I read statements like -- total victory over sin -- an alarm bell goes off. Can't help. Of course I believe in victory over sin, it's part of fruit bearing. Just not total victory. Only ONE was without sin, because He was God in the flesh. We are not.

 

[bdavidc]

Well, we are told to seek first the righteousness of God and His kingdom.........even though we have been made righteous and have been translated into the kingdom. We are told to enter His rest, even though we who have believed have entered His rest.

When one is walking in the Spirit (walking in the kingdom as it were), the old man is at rest, inert, and one is manifesting sonship....manifesting Christ, the Son of God, His nature, the nature of the new man. As we are told to put on Christ and put on the new man. And sons of God are angels.....Jesus said we shall be like the angels......and what He said to Nicodemus about "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit".....remember Philip being translated from one place to another........and remember the angels in the book of Revelation, how they said they are brethren..? There is more that is attainable for the people of God in this life than most realize. Not that I believe these things should be imposed on anyone, but just that we have been limiting too much what the Lord can do with us in this life, for His glory. We've been putting a lot of things on hold for the afterlife that don't have to be just for the afterlife. We may "taste the powers of the world to come" in this life.

(And just to say, I don't like the term mystical, to me that has associations with pagan and new age and occult practices......which often counterfeit true things of God.)

I understand your point better now, but I still think several of these passages are being pushed beyond what they actually say.

Matthew 6:33 tells us to “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness.” In context Jesus is telling His disciples not to be consumed with food, clothing, and the cares of this life, but to put God's kingdom first. It does not teach that believers keep entering deeper levels of the kingdom.

The same is true of Hebrews 4. Yes, verse 11 says, “Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,” but the passage is using Israel's unbelief as a warning. It is not describing believers moving in and out of a higher spiritual state. Hebrews 4:3 says, “For we which have believed do enter into rest.”

Where I have a bigger concern is with connecting sonship to angels and then suggesting believers can begin functioning in some angel-like way in this life. Scripture does not say that. We are sons of God because we have received the Spirit of adoption. “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God” (Romans 8:14).

When Jesus said we would be like the angels, He was speaking about the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36 says those who obtain “that world, and the resurrection from the dead” neither marry nor die anymore, “for they are equal unto the angels.” That is future resurrection life.

Romans 8 says the same thing about the “manifestation of the sons of God.” Paul connects it with “the redemption of our body” (Romans 8:23). So I do not see any basis for moving that manifestation into some present higher spiritual condition.

John 3:8 does not teach that believers can become physically like the wind, disappear, or be transported from place to place. Jesus is describing the work of the Spirit in the new birth. Philip being caught away in Acts 8 was a miracle God did to Philip. That does not make it an attainable spiritual level for believers.

And Revelation does not make believers angels. The angel tells John, “I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren” (Revelation 22:9). Fellowservants are not necessarily the same kind of being. They are both servants of God.

I agree that God can do far more than we often expect, and Hebrews 6:5 does speak of tasting “the powers of the world to come.” But that still does not give us permission to take future resurrection promises and exceptional miracles and turn them into a present spiritual experience that Scripture itself never teaches.

And fair enough on the word “mystical.” I understand why you do not like it. My concern is not the label. My concern is staying with what the text actually says.

 

[Scooter Jackson]

total victory over sin -- an alarm bell goes off

Those who do not become overcomers in this life won't be going to be with the Lord

Here's a few related passages that come to mind immediately.

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, [even] our faith.

Romans 8:37
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Revelation 3:21
To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Revelation 3:5 - He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

James 1:21-25
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he sees himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was.
But whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[bdavidc]

Semantics. They mean the same thing. Other than different words, how are you taking the meaning to be different?

No, that is not semantics. You are taking “faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things” and turning it into a progressive testing system that the passage never describes.

You said, “There is no reason to suppose this cannot be repeated, more and more and more.” That is exactly the problem. You have moved from what the passage says to what you suppose could happen.

Matthew 25:21 says, “thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things.” That is stewardship and reward for faithfulness. The servant was entrusted with something, proved faithful with it, and was given greater responsibility. The text never says God then gave him a harder test, waited for him to pass that test, promoted him to another spiritual level, and repeated the process “more and more and more.”

Those are not merely different words describing the same thing. Greater responsibility is not the same thing as a progressively harder test. If my employer sees that I am faithful with one responsibility and gives me more responsibility, that does not mean he has placed me into the next level of a spiritual testing system.

Your school illustration actually shows where the additional idea is coming from. First grade, second grade, harder tests, and continued advancement may describe an education system, but Jesus did not put that system into Matthew 25. We cannot use an outside analogy to add a structure to the parable that is not there.

And I would be very careful about calling Gethsemane Jesus' “final test.” Scripture never calls it that. Jesus was “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). In Gethsemane He submitted Himself perfectly to the Father's will: “nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt” (Matthew 26:39). There is nothing there about Christ passing the final level of a progressive spiritual testing system.

Trials certainly test faith. Scripture teaches that plainly. James says, “the trying of your faith worketh patience” (James 1:3). Peter speaks of “the trial of your faith” (1 Peter 1:7). I have never denied that God uses trials.

What I am rejecting is the added system that says believers pass one spiritual level, are promoted to another, and then receive increasingly difficult tests as they advance. Matthew 25 does not teach that, and saying there is “no reason to suppose” it cannot happen is not the same thing as showing where Scripture says it does happen.

That is not semantics. That is the difference between what the text actually says and what is being added to it.

 

[bdavidc]

Each time? Matthew 25:21 lays the foundation of progressive structure. This is true even if it identifies one test and 2 states or conditions: a little responsibility BEFORE passing the test and ‘more’ after.

There is no reason to suppose this cannot be repeated, more and more and more. In our education system we first pass 1st grade then get tested more in 2nd grade and on and on.

Again relying on Jesus as our model, he was tested in numerous ways during the 40 days in the desert. And he was tested in his last night in asking for the cup to be passed or taken from him. It was what he said (and did) after that revealed he passed the final test - as your will be done.

Matthew 25:21 does not establish the progressive testing system you are claiming. It says, “thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things.” That is faithfulness followed by greater responsibility. It does not say the servant passed one test, advanced to another level, received a harder test, and continued upward from there.

When you say, “There is no reason to suppose this cannot be repeated,” that is where the argument leaves the text. Doctrine is not established by what we can suppose might happen. It has to be shown from Scripture.

Your school illustration may describe how education works, but Jesus did not build that system into the parable. In the same way, Scripture never calls Gethsemane Christ's “final test.” Hebrews 4:15 says He was “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin,” and Matthew 26:39 shows His perfect submission to the Father's will. That does not establish a ladder of progressively harder spiritual tests.

I agree that believers are tested. James 1:3 speaks of “the trying of your faith,” and 1 Peter 1:7 speaks of “the trial of your faith.” My objection is to turning those trials into a structured system of spiritual levels that Matthew 25 never describes.

That is the distinction I am making. The Bible clearly teaches testing, growth, faithfulness, and greater responsibility. It does not teach the progressive testing structure you are reading into this passage.

 

[ProDeo]

I don’t see any insults here. I suppose it's by the voice in your head you read it by.
Matt.6:22 "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!"

Disparaging one liners without any context is what we are talking about.

If YOU see THIS as insults, how is it that you NEVER point out Amigo's insults against Epi? Where is the balance?? Who is judging and from where??

You are not without points here regarding amigo, it is like you said yourself and we have been there. Hard to understand his posts.

 

[Scooter Jackson]

It does not teach that believers keep entering deeper levels of the kingdom.

No need to grow spiritually. Got it.

Hebrews 4:3 says, “For we which have believed do enter into rest.”

That's funny seeing so many Christians who are definitely not at rest

When Jesus said we would be like the angels, He was speaking about the resurrection. Luke 20:35-36 says those who obtain “that world, and the resurrection from the dead” neither marry nor die anymore, “for they are equal unto the angels.” That is future resurrection life.

He's saying we won't be in marriages just like angels don't get married.

The Body of Christ will sit in judgement over the angels and all the angels will be our servants

Born again believers are above the angels right now in fact. You are aware right?

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. Ephesians 1:21-23

 

[Wrangler]

You are taking “faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things” and turning it into a progressive testing system that the passage never describes.

The passage totally describes a progressive testing system. It’s not a non-progressive testing system because the series ends at the second iteration! Put one foot in front of the other does not end with your second foot. Rather it describes a series.

Honestly, I don’t know what kind of doctrine you received to deny this. As I said, out Lord was tested more than once.

 

[Wrangler]

Matthew 25:21 does not establish the progressive testing system you are claiming. It says, “thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things.” That is faithfulness followed by greater responsibility. It does not say the servant passed one test, advanced to another level, received a harder test, and continued upward from there.

Nor does it have to repeat the series for it to be presented. The servant of 10 talents was given more, which doesn’t have to be a one and done reaction.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Of course I believe in victory over sin, it's part of fruit bearing. Just not total victory.

This is what Paul called having a likeness of godliness and interest in always learning about it while never coming to know the truth for denying the power that could make them so.