What is the role of christians in the modern era

[Patrick1966]

I believe that Jesus meant for us not to be part of the world in three main areas which are all addressed in the scriptures......to be no part of its corrupt rulership...no part of its gross immorality and violence...and no part of its false worship. These are the areas we need to be separate from. That is how we can live “in the world” but be “no part” of it. These are the parts that the devil controls....he cannot control what Christians do in obedience to the God however....all he can do is manipulate and promote those three areas so that Christians may succumb to the pressures and give in. He preys on our weaknesses so If we are not educated by God through his word, then we will be educated by the world.

Jesus teaches us how NOT to be any part of it, whilst carrying out “the great commission”.

Exodus 18:21 ESV​

Moreover, look for able men from all the people, men who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe, and place such men over the people as chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 ESV​

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach...

Hebrews 13:17 ESV​

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Proverbs 29:2 ESV​

When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, but when the wicked rule, the people groan.

Deuteronomy 1:15 ESV​

So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and set them as heads over you, commanders of thousands, commanders of hundreds, commanders of fifties, commanders of tens, and officers, throughout your tribes.

2 Chronicles 1:10-12​

Give me now wisdom and knowledge to go out and come in before this people, for who can govern this people of yours, which is so great?” God answered Solomon, “Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked possessions, wealth, honor, or the life of those who hate you, and have not even asked long life, but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself that you may govern my people over whom I have made you king, wisdom and knowledge are granted to you. I will also give you riches, possessions, and honor, such as none of the kings had who were before you, and none after you shall have the like.”

Proverbs 29:12 ESV​

If a ruler listens to falsehood, all his officials will be wicked.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Exodus 18:21 ESV
Moreover, look for able men from all the people, men who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe, and place such men over the people as chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens.

All of the scriptures you have quoted are taken out of context and are misleading because of that.

Let me explain....
Exodus 18:21 is talking about God’s organisation of his own people...not the world. The Hebrews were separate from the Egyptians in their lives and worship, even though they lived among them as slaves for hundreds of years.
In order to keep his numerous people organised it was necessary to appoint suitable men for the tasks assigned. There were hundreds of thousands of them that walked out of Egypt as well as many Egyptians who joined them. Those chosen had to be men of faith, and trustworthy.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 ESV
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach...

Again, this is talking about organisation within the Christian congregations. An overseer was just that...he had oversight of the activities within the congregation in which he was appointed. Again...this man had to be faithful and trustworthy.

Hebrews 13:17 ESV​

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

These are leaders or overseers in the congregation, not worldly leaders.

Proverbs 29:2 ESV​

When the righteous increase, the people rejoice, but when the wicked rule, the people groan.

Who can argue with that? We can see in many parts of the world that people are very angry about the way their rulers are using their power in a worthless way. Never have all the nations been in such an uproar.

Deuteronomy 1:15 ESV​

So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and set them as heads over you, commanders of thousands, commanders of hundreds, commanders of fifties, commanders of tens, and officers, throughout your tribes.

Same as Exodus....this is within God’s nation, not the world outside.

2 Chronicles 1:10-12​

Give me now wisdom and knowledge to go out and come in before this people, for who can govern this people of yours, which is so great?” God answered Solomon, “Because this was in your heart, and you have not asked possessions, wealth, honor, or the life of those who hate you, and have not even asked long life, but have asked wisdom and knowledge for yourself that you may govern my people over whom I have made you king, wisdom and knowledge are granted to you. I will also give you riches, possessions, and honor, such as none of the kings had who were before you, and none after you shall have the like.”

Same again.....it was the rulership of God’s people that Solomon wanted to do well with God’s help.

Proverbs 29:12 ESV​

If a ruler listens to falsehood, all his officials will be wicked.

Can you see that you chopped and changed from Israel to the Christian arrangement whilst trying to prove a point that context has dismissed.....?

“The world” is what we are to be separate from....in all the areas that the Bible tells us to....but we are to be subject to the ruling authorities in order to be good citizens of whatever nation we may live in. (Romans 13:1-7) As those who give the ruling authorities no reason to find fault with us, we will not be found in prisons around the world as law breakers.....the only way a Christian would be found in jail is for refusing to disobey their God. e.g. for refusing to join the military and kill our fellow man. We are told by Jesus to “love our enemies” (Matt 5:43-44) which rules out taking up arms to do them harm.

We are not to “return evil for evil”....but to “conquer evil with good”. (Romans 12:17-21)

If we are going to use scripture, make sure that it is in context and that what we quote is actually what the Bible is saying. Cherry picking is what gives people the wrong ideas about many things. Context is everything.

 

[Dropship]

It’s not “that” they carried swords....but “why”.....explained to you.....but obviously not understood....

The fact remains Jesus allowed his followers to carry swords which indicates weapons are not "evil"..
If everybody had sat out of WW2 like you JW's, Hitler would have been able to develop the atom bomb without hindrance, and you'd have been in a world o' hurt then..

 

[Adam]

Instead we have the USSR, who killed millions more than Germany and we have the liberal west, who, through abortion, have promoted the largest genocide in human history, 50 Million each year; and each with their share of war crimes and genocides. So who among them is good? They are all evil.

What is the symbol of the German soldier? The cross. What motto did they wear on their belts? "God is with us". They were fighting the USSR, who, from the 20s to the end of the 40s genocided Poles (Polish Action of the NKVD, Katyn Massacre), Ukrainians (Holodomor) and Germans (genocide of Prussia and Sudetenland) and other ethnic groups, and often in the most barbaric ways imaginable. You can google "torture of Captain Rosinsky" if you want to see what they did with captured Polish soldiers (it involves mutilation and impalement). The Germans believed that they were fighting the ultimate evil. Many of them joined the SS because they were urged to by their churches. They saw it as Europe's final crusade against the atheistic and barbaric communists; the regime of the antichrist who were slaughtering innocents by the millions, and they were the protectors of the innocent, the heroic and knightly defenders of Europe and Christendom... and just like every other crusade it failed miserably. By 1942 they realized they were deep in enemy territory and were being shot at from behind by ununiformed soldiers and partisans. 500,000 German soldiers were killed by partisan activity in ww2. They engaged in reprisal attacks, which were only outlawed after the war in 1947. France, before it surrendered, had a 1:25 ratio as a matter of policy (25 German civilians killed for every French killed by partisan actions). Soviets had a 1:100 ratio. Calculate the ratio the Germans had by the number of civilians they killed divided by the number of soldiers they lost to partisans. They were the most merciful of all the land powers given the scale of the conflict! And yet, they depopulated entire regions as a matter of maintaining their occupation. After the war, the eastern half of Germany was genocided, and German POWs were used for slave labor for decades, many never returned home. That is what happens in war, you fight for your survival and do whatever it takes because if you lose, they will genocide half your country and say you deserve it, and call you the bad guy while denying all wrongdoing of their own. That's what happened to Germany and it's what would have happened to the USSR had Germany won. It's what would have happened to Japan if they hadn't surrendered, and it's what happened to China. It's what USA did to North Korea (they deliberately bombed civilian residences), and to the native Americans before that, and what the colonial powers did to their conquests... and all in the name of the greater good of mankind.

So what is the lesson to be learnt from all these wars? If you fight evil with evil, you turn good into evil. The only way to fight evil is as Jesus said, do not resist an evil man, but turn the other cheek. If you fight evil with good, you turn evil to good.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Adam...its amazing what despicable things humans will justify in their lust for power.....nuclear weapons are just a phone call from becoming the end of civilization as we know it.....competing egos will decide......and the fox is guarding the hen house.

I am thankful that the end of satan's rulership of this world is not left to human beings.....God has had his purpose from the beginning and it was always going to go ahead....with us or without us.... we decide if its "with us" by obeying the Christ in all things....not just the convenient stuff.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The fact remains Jesus allowed his followers to carry swords which indicates weapons are not "evil"..
If everybody had sat out of WW2 like you JW's, Hitler would have been able to develop the atom bomb without hindrance, and you'd have been in a world o' hurt then..

All I can do is shake my head.....weapons that are designed only to take human life have no place in a Christian's possession because it shows intent to use them. Can you 'love your enemies' by inflicting harm or death with a weapon of any kind? Like joining the military...they own you and you must do their bidding, or else. If they tell you to kill its because they have trained you to do so, with the intent that you will, when they instruct you to....or suffer the penalty. There is no room for conscience.

A knife is a useful tool but can also be a weapon in the wrong hands. We don't ban knives just because humans can use them in a wrong way....but should humans ban the use of hand guns and automatic assault weapons, or should they continue to carry them just in case the bad guys have them too? Wouldn't that amount to "returning evil for evil"? We are told not to do that.

What about nuclear weapons, because there is no way to use them for good? Its all evil.

The 'fox guarding the hen house' is the only nation on earth to have actually used those bombs on human beings....and many innocent ones at that.

How could using nuclear weapons ever result in good?

Be careful of propaganda...because there are no good guys in leadership positions....they are all puppets of the same Puppet Master. (1 John 5:19)

 

[Dropship]

..weapons that are designed only to take human life have no place in a Christian's possession
...How could using nuclear weapons ever result in good?..

1- Peter and others among Jesus's followers carried swords (John 18:10, Luke 22:49-51) so you'd better argue it out with them when you meet them..
2- The two atom bombs made Japan instantly surrender, otherwise American troops would have had to invade Japan at the cost of countless lives.
PS- We know "blessed are the peacemakers" but if going to war is the only way to restore the peace, our armed forces become the "peacemakers"..
Eisenhower said- "We shall have peace even if we had to fight for it"..

 

[Aunty Jane]

1- Peter and others among Jesus's followers carried swords (John 18:10, Luke 22:49-51) so you'd better argue it out with them when you meet them..

It was explained to you why they were told to carry swords, but you have failed to acknowledge the reason in order to keep your weapons justified.

2- The two atom bombs made Japan instantly surrender, otherwise American troops would have had to invade Japan at the cost of countless lives.

Nonsense. The USA wanted to get nuclear weapons as soon as it was hinted that these were the most powerful weapons in existence. They wanted to be the first to demonstrate their superiority.....and to even suggest that using these horrendous weapons could ever be justified is a sad indictment on your Christianity my friend. How is that not returning evil with an even bigger evil.

If you are going to call yourself a Christian...it has to be boots and all. Obedience to Christ verses obedience to your government....which one do you think most people are indoctrinated into from birth?

PS- We know "blessed are the peacemakers" but if going to war is the only way to restore the peace, our armed forces become the "peacemakers"..
Eisenhower said- "We shall have peace even if we had to fight for it"..

War has never once produced lasting peace in the world and since 1914, alliances of nations have ensured that multi-national wars will never cease.
Look at the state of the world and show me where there is peace?

"In January 2020, it was moved forward to 100 seconds before midnight. The clock's setting was left unchanged in both 2021 and 2022. Since 2010, the clock has been moved forward over four minutes, and has changed by five minutes and twenty seconds since 1947." (WIKI)

When Jesus said "happy are the peacemakers" he was not talking about the armed "peace keepers"....they are a different kettle of fish altogether.
True peace is a "state of the heart", not the result of "state of the art" weaponry.......if its a case of..."my weapons are bigger and better than your weapons"......we are in deep trouble if egos have their finger on the button....

 

[Dropship]

The USA wanted to get nuclear weapons as soon as it was hinted that these were the most powerful weapons in existence. They wanted to be the first to demonstrate their superiority....
Obedience to Christ versus obedience to your government....which one do you think most people are indoctrinated into from birth?

1- The atomic bombs instantly ended WW2 after 4 years of slaughter, sounds good to me..
2- In WW2 most people WANTED to join the armed forces to fight the tyranny of Hitler and the Japs rather than let them walk all over them without lifting a finger..
"The target marker flares looked quite pretty floating slowly down in the night sky" my mother told me about the time the nazis bombed her home city of Leicester in 1940 when she was 18.
They were also bombing other cities in Britain, so most people were glad to join up to settle Adolf's hash..

Below: the famous "Battle of the Great Iron Birds"..

 

[Aunty Jane]

1- The atomic bombs instantly ended WW2 after 4 years of slaughter, sounds good to me..
2- In WW2 most people WANTED to join the armed forces to fight the tyranny of Hitler and the Japs rather than let them walk all over them without lifting a finger..
"The target marker flares looked quite pretty floating slowly down in the night sky" my mother told me about the time the nazis bombed her home city of Leicester in 1940 when she was 18.
They were also bombing other cities in Britain, so most people were glad to join up to settle Adolf's hash..

Below: the famous "Battle of the Great Iron Birds"..
View attachment 27887

I have heard all this justification before, but the one thing you fail to realise is that we are told by our only Master to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD” and that includes its bloody conflicts. The world will fight its own wars and as Christians, we will not support the bloodshed. No war of man is sanctioned by God....it is sanctioned by “the god of this world” who can blind people to the truth about what it means to imitate Christ. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
If you have “Christians” fighting one another on opposite sides of such conflicts, then whose side is God on? The obvious answer is.....neither. (1 John 4:20-21) His true servants would not be there.

The patriots did indeed want to go to war because the propaganda influenced them, just as it does today....the devil’s tactics don’t change because he can manipulate human emotions and make them want to fight in what seems like a “just war”....there is no such thing for a Christian.

If you support the bloodshed, then the devil has successfully separated you from Christ. You are doing his bidding whilst telling Jesus that his teachings mean nothing to you.

Being a true “Christian” should make you unpopular with the world because you don’t join in with them in their agendas and patriotic fervor.....it doesn’t mean you can’t love your homeland, but only that you would not shed blood over it, because the scriptures tell us not to “return evil for evil”.......after all, they have sought to indoctrinate you from birth to love your country more than you love God. Who would fight in wars if there was no deeply implanted patriotism?

So, who rules the world again....? Who is the greatest deceiver of mankind? (1 John 5:19) Has he gotcha?

 

[Dropship]

..So, who rules the world again....? Who is the greatest deceiver of mankind? (1 John 5:19) Has he gotcha?

Hitler, Stalin, the Japs, Saddam and now Putin are all evil tools of satan, used by him for starting wars, so I'm sure God doesn't mind us mobilising to put an end to the evil..

 

[Patrick1966]

Genesis 9:6 ESV​

“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

 

[Patrick1966]

Exodus 21:12 ESV​

“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.

 

[Patrick1966]

Exodus 21:15 ESV​

“Whoever strikes his father or his mother shall be put to death.

 

[Bob Estey]

In our current era of questionable politics and economic decline.

What should the role of christians be during this time?

Crisis and hardship bring out the best and worst in people. Will the best or worst sides of christianity become prominent here? Will we be proud of our choices, or ashamed of not doing as well as we had hoped?

Somewhere along the line, christians appear to have become demoralized and depressed. None have big plans or goals anymore, which they are actively working towards. There isn't much of a support group, community or family anymore.

Most have an "army of one" isolationist mentality, where they will try and fail to do everything on their own.

How is it that christians have become a regressive and downtrodden demographic? Christians are supposed to be God's chosen who are a reflection and example of the amazing things people can achieve through faith, fellowship and belief. But somehow we've arrived at a point where we do not achieve much of anything. We can't seem to learn the basics or get our facts straight on many important topics and current events which are negatively affecting our own standard of living.

Where did we go right and where did we go wrong. How do we fix things and restore balance to nature, the world and society.

What do people think about this?

Stand up for what we think is right. Vote.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hitler, Stalin, the Japs, Saddam and now Putin are all evil tools of satan, used by him for starting wars, so I'm sure God doesn't mind us mobilising to put an end to the evil..

Read 1 John 5:19 and tell me what part of the world is NOT under satan’s control?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if God has told us to “listen” to his son, and we chose not to....you have to do the math....”us” in your statement doesn’t include Christians. You choose who it is that you obey, and for what reasons. Propaganda will ensnare you emotionally as it is designed to do, and those emotions will separate you from God just as the devil has planned.....have you fallen for it?

If the scriptures do not make it clear as to what God “minds” and what he doesn’t, then what more can be said this side of the judgment?
Read Matthew 7:21-23 and see what is is that results in Jesus rejecting those who call him “Lord”, but who fail to do the will of his Father....it’s your call.....

 

[Dropship]

Read 1 John 5:19 and tell me what part of the world is NOT under satan’s control?

"We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19)
Well we know that most Christians aren't under satanic control, so in context John was saying Satan TRIES to control everybody and succeeds with some but not with others..

 

[Aunty Jane]

Stand up for what we think is right. Vote.

If you vote someone into power, you have to accept responsibility for what they do in the position of power you helped to put them in......if we are to be “no part of the world” that is under the control of the devil, we have to accept that what he said to Jesus is true.....Jesus did not deny it.

Luke 4:5-7....when the devil tempted Jesus....
“So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”

"We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19)
Well we know that most Christians aren't under satanic control, so in context John was saying Satan TRIES to control everybody and succeeds with some but not with others..

How do we show that we are not under satan's control? By being "no part of the world" that satan rules.....

We can identify three main areas where satan can be seen controlling humankind and influencing them to adopt his ways....corrupt politics....greedy commercialism....and false religion. Imagine what he has done with such power......add to that his complete understanding of human nature and the unwary and the spiritually uneducated will fall for his propaganda every time......do the deceived know that they are?.....not usually until its too late....
Since there is NO part of the world that satan doesn't rule, we as Christians need to separate ourselves from the parts of it that take our hearts away from God. How many "Christians" can do that? What is that telling you about their loyalty to Christ?
Its not too late yet to wake up to what the devil is doing.......but it will be, come the judgment. I believe it will be soon.

 

[Bob Estey]

If you vote someone into power, you have to accept responsibility for what they do in the position of power you helped to put them in......if we are to be “no part of the world” that is under the control of the devil, we have to accept that what he said to Jesus is true.....Jesus did not deny it.

Luke 4:5-7....when the devil tempted Jesus....
“So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”


How do we show that we are not under satan's control? By being "no part of the world" that satan rules.....

We can identify three main areas where satan can be seen controlling humankind and influencing them to adopt his ways....corrupt politics....greedy commercialism....and false religion. Imagine what he has done with such power......add to that his complete understanding of human nature and the unwary and the spiritually uneducated will fall for his propaganda every time......do the deceived know that they are?.....not usually until its too late....
Since there is NO part of the world that satan doesn't rule, we as Christians need to separate ourselves from the parts of it that take our hearts away from God. How many "Christians" can do that? What is that telling you about their loyalty to Christ?
Its not too late yet to wake up to what the devil is doing.......but it will be, come the judgment. I believe it will be soon.

We have to live in the world. We might just as well make it as pleasant as possible - so I said, "Stand up for what we think is right. Vote."

 

[Aunty Jane]

We have to live in the world. We might just as well make it as pleasant as possible - so I said, "Stand up for what we think is right. Vote."

What would happen to the world if you didn't vote Bob?
AFAIK its not compulsory in your country....it IS compulsory in mine, and there is a stiff fine if you don't vote.....
JW's don't vote, but the government allows us an exemption because it is a vote of conscience to refrain, and to maintain our neutrality....we simply don't take sides....we stay right out of it.