WHAT IS THE SIN UNTO DEATH?

[mailmandan]

Faith that doesn't produce change is a dead faith, no better then the demons who KNOW there is a God, and Who He is.

Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. James is simply saying a mere profession of faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Simple!

We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

 

[Behold]

I teach Paul. Works of the flesh are sins.

You dont teach Paul.
You dont know Paul.
What you like to do is hear yourself talk.

Here is what Paul says... of your "sins".. IF you are born again.
Notice in the verse below he does not call these deeds "sin".
This is because they are not defined anymore as sin.., if you are born again.
If you are not, then keep defining yourself as what you are.. as that would make sense regarding you, charismaticlady

Here is what He says... about the BORN AGAIN...

Galatians 5

19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLES are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings....


Notice that PAUL does not call all those deeds SIN?
Of course you notice it now that ive shown you for the 5th time.

That verse explains why Paul said this...

"if you walk in the Spirit you will not commit deeds of the FLESH".

Notice He is aligning this verse with His Galatians teaching.

 

[Behold]

"Heretical Christians" is kind of an oxymoron, One is either a Christian or one is a Heretic...

Paul defined a faith lost believer as a "heretic."
Not me.
Tell him its an oxymoron when you see him if you have the courage.
Maybe he'll appreciate your humor. ??
I think its a sad situation when believers can't join together on a Forum, in Theological Union, only because heretics are engaged in causing chaos and confusion.

What is a heretic? Its a person who does not believe that Jesus keeps them saved.
Its a teaching that someone like justbyfaith teaches, whereby he is trying to maintain his salvation by his effort, because he once was faith destroyed by the Epistle to the Hebrews, and now he is part faith and part works. A hybrid type of self savor.
He'll deny it, then teach it again in the next post, if not in the same one, where he denied it.

Its also a person who works in opposition to the Grace of God by trying to redefine it as "works", commandment keeping, abiding, enduring to the end, or any other forum of self effort self saving..

Most of the other heresies are related to "i can lose my salvation" "Catholic Theology regarding the Cookie, Mary, and dealing with sin", and the other true offender is the "pre destine elect" group.

 

[Nancy]

Well, Paul himself said he was a blasphemer, let me ask you this, do you believe Paul when he was yet Saul was of the opinion that the works worked of Jesus where accredited to Satan?

Couldn't say what Paul thought about Jesus. I do know he was a pharisee of one of the highest orders and truly believed he was fighting for God. Paul never mentions "what" or "whom" he blasphemed but, I doubt it was the Holy Spirit. So, I can hardly answer that question as, nobody knows what his thoughts were. He was doing his job as he should have been doing, following orders as a good soldier. UNTIL...that fateful day on the road to Damascus!

 

[Waiting on him]

Couldn't say what Paul thought about Jesus. I do know he was a pharisee of one of the highest orders and truly believed he was fighting for God. Paul never mentions "what" or "whom" he blasphemed but, I doubt it was the Holy Spirit. So, I can hardly answer that question as, nobody knows what his thoughts were. He was doing his job as he should have been doing, following orders as a good soldier. UNTIL...that fateful day on the road to Damascus!

I believe that day he resolved to be a coat rack he made it real clear what he thought of Christ and His church.
There is no unpardonable sin.
As for the sin unto death, all sin leads to death.

 

[Philip James]

When we break our connection with God's Spirit by our own will [which we can do], we stop the work of the Spirit in the new man.

A clean heart create for me, God; renew in me a steadfast spirit.

Do not drive me from your presence, nor take from me your holy spirit.

Restore my joy in your salvation; sustain in me a willing spirit

Peace!

 

[James S. McCoy]

@Nancy
"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." I John 5:16-17

Sin is sin but consider these verses...

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matt 12:32

"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:16

And why is it that in the OT under the law given to Moses the punishment for pre-meditated sins was death, whereas sins of ignorance could be set aside with a sacrifice? Does that relate here when we see that God is no respecter of persons and He 0never changes?

Then again, how much mercy will God extend to us? How many times may we sin again and He will have mercy on us yet again?

How many sins are we allowed to commit and repent of before God will
no longer forgive us?

I won't say how many because if I am correct the answer would be
God's not mine.

It was not until after the natural children of Israel had rebelled
10 times that God forbade the promised land to them.

In the case of Moses, only one rebellion resulted in him not being
able to enter the promised land.

But..see the following verses:

"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother
sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but,
Until seventy times seven." Matt 18:21-22

Jesus told Peter to forgive his offending brother 490 times, but
maybe that just means not to set a limit on how many times we
forgive our brother. How many times will the infinitely merciful God
forgive those that sin against Him? It was ten for the natural
children of Israel and only one for Moses. For us it should be...

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given,
of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much,
of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Moses was given more than the others who came out of Egypt with him
so the one offense was all he was allowed while those others received
ten.

How much leeway we are given or how many times God will overlook our
sins and receive our renewed repentance should also depend on how
much He has given us to deal with our situation. Only God knows the
answer to that for each person and therefore He alone can say how
many sins will be allowed before He will finally reject a person.

Does scripture teach us that it is wrong to ask forgiveness?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Matt 7:7

Do you suppose that asking God for forgiveness of our sins would fall into the category of asking amiss, when we definitely know that we have sinned?

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3

Does not scripture teach that we are to confess our sins?

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9

When we confess our sins is not our purpose to be forgiven for those sins so that we will be acceptable in the eyes of God?

If we refused to admit the need to confess our sins before God, do we suppose that He will simply forgive us anyway in spite of our rebellion?

Therefore when we confess, is it not or should it not be in our hearts to obtain the forgiveness of God whether we speak the words, "Father forgive me for my sins", or not?

Was David wrong here to ask that his sins be forgiven?

"Look upon mine affliction and my pain; and forgive all my sins." Psalm 25:18

Perhaps one would say that David lived prior to the birth of Christ and the redemption that His sacrifice provided. Did not, however, the Jesus provide redemption for any of those who had lived in times before He made the sacrifice?

So as David simply asked of God that which he knew was needed, would it be wrong for us to ask of God when we know that we are in need? Are we not in need of forgiveness in order to ever come to the place where God wants us to be?

When we have overcome everything that stand between us and God as Jesus did, then could we definitely say that do not need to ask for His forgiveness!

It may not be necessary to say the words, "Father forgive me for my sins, but that request must be in our hearts if we are to be forgiven! Yes, the price is already paid, but to receive the reward of forgiveness allowed by the price, do we not still need to follow this verse?

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

When we do present our bodies as living sacrifices are we not of necessity asking within our presentation for Him to forgive us of all of our faults, all of our sins?

Then again, if we have really been cleansed in a particular point and then return to our own vomit, and then attempt to turn back to God, we are, in effect, hoping that He will have mercy on us. He gave us what Jesus had, and we muffed it, all of us who are here and have sinned at all since we first believed.

This why the people in the world who also of the world, coming to Christ for the first time always are allowed a place of repentance.

On the other hand, people who have been in the world, but of God in any measure, and then have gone back into sin, have already used up their one free chance.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Heb 6:4-6

As, we have probably seen, in our own experiences, God is extremely merciful, repeatedly "forgiving" us and allowing us on the inside one more time.

The sacrifice of Jesus, indeed, is not as the sacrifice of bulls and goats and sheep. Man's problem is not that the sacrifice cannot do what it is supposed to do, but rather that man, usually, does not really believe that it can do what it is supposed to do. Somewhere in this lack of knowledge and man's failure to use fully and properly that which he has been given is the reason [known only to God] why God continues to show mercy, when no mercy on His part is required any more...

If men were to repent just the one time and then follow the Spirit continuously without interruption or hesitation from that time on, there would never be any need for other repentances and other requests for forgiveness. Instead of listening to and following the Holy Ghost given for that purpose, men listen to and follow men...

We sing the song, "Thank you Lord for saving my soul! Thank you Lord for making me whole", before we have been made whole!"

How long would a person need to listen to and follow the Spirit without interruption before all of the work on the new man was completed? Not long I am sure! We are speaking of God working within us!

When we break our connection with God's Spirit by our own will [which we can do], we stop the work of the Spirit in the new man. If we sin before re-establishing that connection, the Spirit must re-do the work that was done the previous time before building any thing new. We are imitating with these kind of actions the way it was when men repeatedly offered sacrifices through the Levitical priesthood. It should not be this way, but it is. God knowing that this is a possibility, is merciful, again, extemely merciful, but I do not believe that His mercy with a repeat offender will endure forever.

There is a point of no return!

Thinking to ourselves for example: God forgave me before so if I do this one sin just once more He will certainly forgive me again". Then having thought and going ahead and sinning before I have the opportunity to repent as I am sitting in my easy chair lightning strikes my home killing me instantaneously...

Those verses are talking about people who were in the presence of Jesus, saw His miracles, and then said to Him...>"you are doing those works by the power of the Devil".
So, a Christian can't commit this particular sin, nor can an unbeliever.
You'd literally have to travel back in time, and say to Jesus in person....>"you are doing that by the power of the Devil".
This is blasphemy AGAINST the HS, which is different then Blasphemy OF the Holy Spirit.

An example of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit would be...... Lets say you are an atheist, and you have a friend who is been going to church and you can tell they are being affected by these services.
So, you decide to try to talk them out of going anymore.
In this way, you are trying to prevent them from getting saved.
That would be Blasphemy OF The Holy Spirit.
One Example.

You are not reading the scripture properly. The scripture is saying that when one SPEAKS against the Spirit of God, towards HIS person or character, in a disrespectful or derogatory way, that is what is unforgiveable, and will not be tolerated. Also, the text says that WHOSOEVER, that is, without exception, shall be found guilty.

 

[Nancy]

I believe that day he resolved to be a coat rack he made it real clear what he thought of Christ and His church.
There is no unpardonable sin.
As for the sin unto death, all sin leads to death.

Yes, all sin does lead to death but what to do with the words of Christ Himself then? He said blaspheming the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven, in this world or the next.
What are we to do with that scripture?

 

[Behold]

You are not reading the scripture properly. T.

Go here.

Blasphemy

 

[Behold]

Yes, all sin does lead to death but what to do with the words of Christ Himself then? He said blaspheming the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven, in this world or the next.
What are we to do with that scripture?

When you are trying to understand a verse., there are principals you apply.
One is.."who is the speaker talking to" and is the Audience the Born again.
Use that rule of "rightly dividing" and you'll be able to save yourself from worries.

Another Critical application is this one..
Is the verse in the NT, given before Jesus died on the Cross.
And if it is, its likely that Christ's death changed that verse into something called the GRACE OF GOD.
This is really important to realize when you read the Gospels, especially Matthew.

Also, some verses are symbolic and some are allegorical..
Many people read these type verses literally, they take them literally, and that also leads to confusion and worse.

 

[marksman]

1 John 5:16 Say's to me that, there IS a point of no return for some. NOT that God would not yet, still extend His Amazing Grace grace to a repentant sinner but, if their consciences have been eroded over time, I can see why one should not waste their precious prayers for someone who will not receive. Must keep our hearts softened!!!

Interesting. 1 Cor. 5:5 say's to give the sinning believers "up to Satan"...so at least their souls would be saved even if they die physically so, was it God who struck them dead or did He just simply allow Satan to kill them, I wonder. Then I think of Priscilla and Aquila...

I think "sin unto death" is willful and ongoing... sin without repentance of any kind, or IOW - "living IN sin" rather than "IN Christ/The Spirit", carnal, fleshy, or perhaps it can be when someone's conscience's become 'seared' and there is no turning back?
God calls His children to be holy (1 Peter 1:16), and He corrects us when we sin. We aren't "punished" for our sin in the sense of being eternally separated from God, but we are disciplined. "The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son" (Hebrews 12:6)."

So, I suppose...REJOICE when you are being chastened by God because, if He did not love us, He would not chasten and test us.

1 John 5:16 is a tough one for me, and I know I am not understanding it perfectly...yet!
But, I cannot see Christians being sent to, whatever Hell is, for "falling" but not "living" in sin. IOW - STOP, repent and, move on in growing in The Lord.

Sometimes it seems to me that, sin itself is not dealt with inside the Church as it should be. Too many make assumptions (thus, judge) and not enough will bother to get to know you personally. Many are gossips and believe every word.
The Church is about as broken as the world IMO.
God help us all!

So, anybody like to chime in about 1 John 5:16 specifically the sins "unto and not unto death".

Thanks
Nancy

We avoid verses like this quite often Nancy because we do not like facing the facts. There are two aspects to this verse. One is the link with the Old Testament where God said many times that his wrath was poured out on his people because of their sin but they were saved from it because someone prayed. The occasions we are talking about was when they sinned on a regular basis. Not a one-off sin.

The other is that the scripture indicates that you can lose your salvation if you are determined to turn your back on the Lord with continuous sinning.

Mark 3:28 says Truly I say to you, All the sins will be forgiven to the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they have blasphemed; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit has no remission unto the age, but is liable to eternal judgment. People have asked what is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and from what I have deduced it is calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan.

And Hebrews 6:4 says For it is impossible for those once having been enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and becoming sharers of the Holy Spirit, and tasting the good Word of God, and the works of power of a coming age, and having fallen away, it is impossible for them again to renew to repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God, and putting Him to open shame. Note here it says "It is impossible for them to renew to repentance..."

And 2 Peter 2v20 says For if by a recognition of the Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, they have escaped the defilements of the world, and again being entangled they have been overcome by these, then their last things have become worse than the first. For it was better for them not to have recognized the way of righteousness than having recognized it to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

I get the impression that from 1 John 5:16 it is possible to pray a person back from the brink but when they get to a point beyond redemption, they deserve everything they get so to speak and they are not worth wasting time on because they know what the truth is but have chosen to reject it.

 

[James S. McCoy]

Why does he say, the body is dead because of sin?

At conversion, only the SPIRIT of a person is regenerated. The body remains the same "vile body with it's sinful nature" Philippians 3:20,21. This promotes CHOICES, in that we do what is right, or commit that which is wrong. When we do those things pleasing to the Lord, we grow spiritually. See Romans 7: 18-25. Read what the scriptures are SAYING, it appears that opinions, and lack of understanding through "skim reading" has taken the place of thoughtful contemplation.

 

[marks]

Read what the scriptures are SAYING, it appears that opinions, and lack of understanding through "skim reading" has taken the place of thoughtful contemplation

Are you saying it appears that way with me?

 

[marks]

Amen! In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

*So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. James is simply saying a mere profession of faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Simple!

We need to remember that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

A good question to ask here, IMO, is, Justified to whom? Justified by works to God? As if He doesn't know until He sees us in action? He already knows.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Our body is still mortal and will die due to Adam's sin. But once dead and resurrected, it will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye to put on immortality, to match our immortal born again nature that changed when we were first baptized in the Spirit, that used to be the carnal flesh/the old man. The deed of the flesh/nature are sins. Please don't keep thinking our body has indwelt sin. It is not our sin, but Adam's sin that makes our body grow weak with age and will die. God gave everyone not more than 120 years.

Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

According to this, we die because we sin. The body of flesh is corrupt.

Much love!

 

[mailmandan]

A good question to ask here, IMO, is, Justified to whom? Justified by works to God? As if He doesn't know until He sees us in action? He already knows.

Much love!

God already knows whether or not we have placed our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and have been justified (accounted as righteous) by faith. (Romans 5:1) Man is justified (shown to be righteous) for all to see by works, but not accounted as righteous by works. (James 2:21,24; Romans 4:2-6)

 

[marks]

God already knows whether or not we have placed our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and have been justified (accounted as righteous) by faith. (Romans 5:1) Man is justified (shown to be righteous) for all to see by works, but not accounted as righteous by works. (James 2:21,24; Romans 4:2-6)

He certainly does know! After all, if we have been reborn, He is the One Who did that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

where i said that im not a sinner, that there is no sin in Christ, and that God does not charge the born again with sin.

Like a cool drink of water to the thirsty soul!!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 John 5:16 Say's to me that, there IS a point of no return for some.

Hi Nancy,

I think that there is a point a no return for some. I also see it here:

2 Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And here:

Romans 1
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

People who are so resolved in their sin that God gives them up to it. Or at the end of the age, when God breaks their minds so they can't think right.

In both cases, as I understand it, these are people who will spend the remainder of their lives in their sins, without hope, having already been judged.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not the body; what Paul calls the flesh is our nature. "We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit..."

Romans 8:
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Here Paul talks of the two things, the body and the flesh/nature, and doesn't want you to get them confused, and mistake one for the other, like you seem to be doing.

It depends on how you understand "in the flesh", and, "in the Spirit".

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

What does it mean, "the body of sin"?

Much love!