WHAT IS THE WATER IN JOHN 3:5?

[mailmandan]

I tend to agree that the physical birth makes the most sense.
In verse John 3:6 Jesus says. What is born of flesh is flesh. What is born of spirit is spirit.
This would seem to point to natural birth and the fact that we must be born 2X.

I don't know how being baptized makes us be born AGAIN....2X. Jesus said AGAIN.

Do you give any importance to the fact that soon after this Jesus was baptizing persons in

John 3:22
22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.

How could Jesus be talking about physical birth and water baptism at the same time in John 3:5? Jesus had to clear up Nicodemus' confusion. Now in regard to John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. Verse 22 is out of context with verse 5. What is still in contex with verse 5 are verses 14-18.

 

[nedsk]

How could Jesus be talking about physical birth and water baptism at the same time in John 3:5? Jesus had to clear up Nicodemus' confusion. Now in regard to John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. Verse 22 is out of context with verse 5. What is still in contex with verse 5 are verses 14-18.

So Jesus had to clear up his confusion? Does Jesus do that in other places in Scripture?

 

[mailmandan]

Are you saying that Nicodemus was not confused? In John 3:4, we read - Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

 

[nedsk]

Are you saying that Nicodemus was not confused? In John 3:4, we read - Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

You talking to me??? I always wonder why people don't reply directly. If you are talking to me I never mentioned Nicodemus I asked about Jesus. Try again

 

[FaithWillDo]

Don't get confused, I believe Scripture I just don't believe your version of Scripture. If you think that's the same thing then you have greater problems. You don't speak with an authority about Scripture that I recognize. So you can post these lengthy responses but they are meaningless to me and sheer volume of words doesn't mean you're right.

Dear nedsk,
My posts are long because I support what I believe with scripture. If your truth comes from God's Word, why won't you believe the scriptures that I post? You should think about your answer the next time you pray.

Truth is only revealed by Christ and He only reveals it when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon a person.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Paul's blindness and inability to eat that began on the Damascus Road represents his spiritual blindness and inability to understand Christ's spiritual teachings of the New Covenant. It was only after Paul called out to the Lord (prayed) that he received the Latter Rain three days later. It was only at that time that the scales fell from Paul's eyes. After Paul's spiritual blindness was healed, Paul was told to "eat meat". After he did, Paul was spiritually strengthened by the truth that he consumed.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

This same truth taught by Paul's conversion matches exactly with what the scripture below teaches:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (spiritual blindness healed by the Latter Rain). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (unconverted babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

This truth is again confirmed by this scripture:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (had become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Here is one more scripture that teaches about what happens after Christ's gives the Latter Rain to a fallen away babe:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (same as seeing that your wickedness is great), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

If you want to "see", I recommend doing as God's Word says and "call unto the Lord". Christ is the healer of the blind.

Joe

 

[nedsk]

Dear nedsk,
My posts are long because I support what I believe with scripture. If your truth comes from God's Word, why won't you believe the scriptures that I post? You should think about your answer the next time you pray.

Truth is only revealed by Christ and He only reveals it when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon a person.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Paul's blindness and inability to eat that began on the Damascus Road represents his spiritual blindness and inability to understand Christ's spiritual teachings of the New Covenant. It was only after Paul called out to the Lord (prayed) that he received the Latter Rain three days later. It was only at that time that the scales fell from Paul's eyes. After Paul's spiritual blindness was healed, Paul was told to "eat meat". After he did, Paul was spiritually strengthened by the truth that he consumed.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

This same truth taught by Paul's conversion matches exactly with what the scripture below teaches:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (spiritual blindness healed by the Latter Rain). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them (unconverted babes who draw milk) precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).

This truth is again confirmed by this scripture:

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and Rain (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (had become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Here is one more scripture that teaches about what happens after Christ's gives the Latter Rain to a fallen away babe:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (same as seeing that your wickedness is great), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

If you want to "see", I recommend doing as God's Word says and "call unto the Lord". Christ is the healer of the blind.

Joe

You tell me what you think it says. AGAIN I don't recognize your authority on Scripture. If you can't even understand what I'm saying..... You people believe stuff not in Scripture but ignore what is.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You tell me what you think it says. AGAIN I don't recognize your authority on Scripture. If you can't even understand what I'm saying..... You people believe stuff not in Scripture but ignore what is.

Dear nedsk,
I post the scriptures that support my statements and most of those scriptures are not difficult to understand. You simply reject what they teach because it conflicts with your present understanding. You are still preferring the Old Wine over the New Wine as Christ said would be the case for babes. For that spiritual condition to change, Christ must act within your life. Again, I recommend that you pray for understanding because Christ is the only one who can give it to you.
Joe

 

[nedsk]

Dear nedsk,
I post the scriptures that support my statements and most of those scriptures are not difficult to understand. You simply reject what they teach because it conflicts with your present understanding. You are still preferring the Old Wine over the New Wine as Christ said would be the case for babes. For that spiritual condition to change, Christ must act within your life. Again, I recommend that you pray for understanding because Christ is the only one who can give it to you.
Joe

You can rinse and repeat but it doesn't change anything. You're really struggling arent you? You are not an authority of Scripture that I recognize. You can recommend all you life.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you saying that Nicodemus was not confused? In John 3:4, we read - Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Yes. I thought I tagged you but it turns out I did not. That was in response to your question, - "Jesus had to clear up his confusion?"

 

[ScottA]

Hi ScottA
Yes. What you've posted is how I understood John 3:5 when I first began to study scripture many years ago.
But baptism is also beginning to make sense.

Nicodemus' reply seems, to me, to indicate water of natural child birth when he asks Jesus how he could go back into the womb again.
Did Jesus correct him to state that Nico was wrong?
I don't think so....Not sure.

Is that you in the pix?
You look different...like you've lost a lot of weight.
I hope you're OK.

Water Baptism is again an image or example of the greater circumstances regarding our being born into the filth of our own sin, needing to be washed clean, and then reborn of the incorruptible spirit of God.

As for greater meaning, it is but to the church as the law and the daily sacrifice were to Israel: a religious practice to repeat a thousand times an echo of what was said in the beginning with the waters above and below the firmament, but not fully understood as the parable of revelation that it is.

As for me, yes I have lost weight, but all is good. Thank you!

 

[FaithWillDo]

You can rinse and repeat but it doesn't change anything. You're really struggling arent you? You are not an authority of Scripture that I recognize. You can recommend all you life.

Dear nedsk,
Isn't God's Word your authority? Why would you listen to any man when you have access to the highest authority?

Your beliefs should be coming from the scriptures that I have posted. Can't you see that those scriptures contradict your present beliefs? Doesn't that bother you?

Please think about those questions. They are for your internal consumption.

I plan for this to be my last post to you (as the Lord wills).

Joe

 

[JohnDB]

Yes. I'm sure there's more to Peter walking on the water....which is just plainly understood as keeping our eyes on Jesus and we will not drown.

When is your book going to be available?
I'm sure there'll be a lot of this in there.


So are you saying the water in John 3:5 is the Law, or as some would say, the word??
So it would be saying:
You must be born of the law and the spirit.
This would make sense.
Why?
Because we still are required to obey God....
but this time the law is written on the heart and not on stone.

This verse has always baffled me....any way it's explained it can make sense.


Yes. Have always understood Genesis 1 to be God making order of something that was already there...
(but which HE also created, of course).


In Matthew 5 Jesus states that our righteousness must be greater than that of the pharisees.
How can it be greater if they attempted to follow all the 613 laws perfectly?
Because we need to obey with our heart and not from a list....
But the list IS necessary or how would we know what the laws are....

To answer your questions...

Book is under editing currently....I am a lousy writer....wife is excellent. She first edited what I wrote and now is busy re-writing my sections to make it better with more clarity. (You can't just edit garbage and make it work) So the whole process is just taking longer than I'd like. But it covers a LOT.

One of the subjects is micro vx macro view.

And this is where BOTH viewpoints are needed because of the typology used.

We must follow God in "Spirit and in truth".
Meaning our faith is based not on our own ideas (above all else the heart is the most deceitful/wicked) but upon scriptures.

I can, create a religion of the Holy Hamster full of all sorts of hedonistic pleasures while claiming to follow God....until scriptures are involved which will destroy my ideas of holy hamster behaviors. Because scriptures contain Truth as well as dictates and commands. Even today people like to use scissors on scriptures by deliberately forgetting to know/learn uncomfortable sections when it bruises a favorite pet theology they have.
Truly it's an "all or none" type deal. And if your pet theology doesn't fit with all scriptures....what is likely incorrect? Your understanding or the pet theology or both?

And yes, our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees who followed all 613 laws the best of anyone. (And they even accurately measured the water they used to wash their hands every time)

We need the righteousness of Christ....
Thank God for Jesus.

Of course none of us can be as good as Jesus....the plumb line of scriptures tells us that. Which is what scriptures (aka the Law) is for. It makes us realize our DESPERATE NEED for a Savior....which we ONLY have through Jesus. No other Savior will work.

However, there are times that codified law cannot cover man's inventive nature for evil. Where people are literally forced into committing a lesser sin just to survive. (Including adultery which Jesus demonstrated in John 8) So in these instances the Good News is that God does indeed understand that these things happen (like horrendous parents, abusive husbands or wives or other instances of Law Breaking) and we are not bound by the letter of the Law but the Spirit. (AKA law written on our hearts)

Now about this amniotic fluid from birthing....
Jesus was not gonna tell Nicodemus what is unnecessary or common knowledge. Nor was John going to waste precious and expensive paper and ink writing out a foregone conclusion that someone must be physically born to be saved. (Is there another method for human beings?)

Scriptures are written in a very concentrated manner where all "of course" knowledge is never repeated. Usually physical nature or extremely common known behavior is excluded. Like when "Peter ran" to Jesus's tomb....needed because Jews did not run....and the included running was needed but the fact that Jews never ran anywhere was not included...because it's common knowledge everywhere in the known world.

 

[nedsk]

Dear nedsk,
Isn't God's Word your authority? Why would you listen to any man when you have access to the highest authority?

Your beliefs should be coming from the scriptures that I have posted. Can't you see that those scriptures contradict your present beliefs? Doesn't that bother you?

Please think about those questions. They are for your internal consumption.

I plan for this to be my last post to you (as the Lord wills).

Joe

Gods word is my authority. What's NOT my authority is you telling me what Gods word means. I bet you don't sed the difference do you? There are 20,000+ non Catholic Christian denominations because people can't tell the difference.

I would make this my last post to me if I was you too Joe. Temerity in people is a nasty thing in people. I'm here whenever you're ready to discuss and not pontificate Joe. God bless you.

 

[nedsk]

To answer your questions...

Book is under editing currently....I am a lousy writer....wife is excellent. She first edited what I wrote and now is busy re-writing my sections to make it better with more clarity. (You can't just edit garbage and make it work) So the whole process is just taking longer than I'd like. But it covers a LOT.

One of the subjects is micro vx macro view.

And this is where BOTH viewpoints are needed because of the typology used.

We must follow God in "Spirit and in truth".
Meaning our faith is based not on our own ideas (above all else the heart is the most deceitful/wicked) but upon scriptures.

I can, create a religion of the Holy Hamster full of all sorts of hedonistic pleasures while claiming to follow God....until scriptures are involved which will destroy my ideas of holy hamster behaviors. Because scriptures contain Truth as well as dictates and commands. Even today people like to use scissors on scriptures by deliberately forgetting to know/learn uncomfortable sections when it bruises a favorite pet theology they have.
Truly it's an "all or none" type deal. And if your pet theology doesn't fit with all scriptures....what is likely incorrect? Your understanding or the pet theology or both?

And yes, our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees who followed all 613 laws the best of anyone. (And they even accurately measured the water they used to wash their hands every time)

We need the righteousness of Christ....
Thank God for Jesus.

Of course none of us can be as good as Jesus....the plumb line of scriptures tells us that. Which is what scriptures (aka the Law) is for. It makes us realize our DESPERATE NEED for a Savior....which we ONLY have through Jesus. No other Savior will work.

However, there are times that codified law cannot cover man's inventive nature for evil. Where people are literally forced into committing a lesser sin just to survive. (Including adultery which Jesus demonstrated in John 8) So in these instances the Good News is that God does indeed understand that these things happen (like horrendous parents, abusive husbands or wives or other instances of Law Breaking) and we are not bound by the letter of the Law but the Spirit. (AKA law written on our hearts)

Now about this amniotic fluid from birthing....
Jesus was not gonna tell Nicodemus what is unnecessary or common knowledge. Nor was John going to waste precious and expensive paper and ink writing out a foregone conclusion that someone must be physically born to be saved. (Is there another method for human beings?)

Scriptures are written in a very concentrated manner where all "of course" knowledge is never repeated. Usually physical nature or extremely common known behavior is excluded. Like when "Peter ran" to Jesus's tomb....needed because Jews did not run....and the included running was needed but the fact that Jews never ran anywhere was not included...because it's common knowledge everywhere in the known world.

So why is "Peter ran" included?

 

[JohnDB]

So why is "Peter ran" included?

Because no mature Jewish man ever ran. They flat out didn't do it. They practically strutted everywhere they went. Children run, men do not run in that culture.

 

[nedsk]

Because no mature Jewish man ever ran. They flat out didn't do it. They practically strutted everywhere they went. Children run, men do not run in that culture.

So "Peter ran" is in the bible because no Jewish man ever ran? So "Peter ran" is there to let people know Jewish men DONT run???????

 

[ScottA]

Dear nedsk,
Why would anyone want to be baptized in water if they have no faith in Christ? Only those who make a confession of faith are to be baptized in water.

A person's faith comes from having a small measure of the Holy Spirit (Early Rain) within them when they hear the Gospel preached. Water baptism is to be performed secondly as an outward testimony to their faith that the Early Rain gave them.

If Christ does not give the Early Rain to a person, they will never have faith in Him or be willing to accept Him as their Lord. Why? Because of what these verses below state:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Without the small measure of the Spirit that the Early Rain gives a person, a person will reject Christ and His Gospel 100% of the time.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is what Christ gives to a person to call them to be a saint. This is what causes a person to enter the church. The babe will remain in the church as long as they remain faithful. However, since the time that the spirit of anti-Christ entered the church near the end of the 1st century A.D., none of the babes in the church have remained faithful. They have all fallen from grace just as scripture teaches that they will do.

Many people are called to be saints but only a few of those who are called will actually become saints. They become saints because Christ comes to them a second time and pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (the baptism). It is in this way that Christ builds His true church. It is His decision as to who will be in His church. For this reason, the saints are said to be "chosen" and have nothing to boast about concerning their salvation:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Lastly, Christ teaches "here a little and there a little". For this reason, I combine what Christ said in Mat 28:19 with what He said in other places of scripture. When a person doesn't learn truth in this manner, they will usually fill in the silent portions of a verse with their own preconceived beliefs. This will cause error most times. If a verse is silent in a portion, we must look to other scripture to fill in the silent part.

Here is a good example of how error happens:

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Other forum members will frequently quote this verse to me to prove that mankind has a free will ability to choose. However, this verse is silent on whether a person's choice comes from a free will ability to choose. To know if mankind has a free will ability to make choices, we must look to other scripture. When we do, it is clear that mankind does not have a free will ability.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Joe

Joe,

In principle, what you have said about the early and latter rain is not untrue. But it is only a parable version of what is greater, reiterated in that way to carry the matter forward to many generations.

To the contrary, however, the early and latter rain is rather a parable pointing to God's greater overall salvation plan. In that plan, the "early" or "former" rain is in the "Fall" season--that season of death--and little compared with the "latter" rain which comes in the "Spring" season--the season of new life, which is more and ultimately greater. The early was the rain from above--from God--upon the lesser nation of Israel, while the latter is the rain of God's spirit being poured out upon "all flesh"--meaning upon the greater number of Gentile nations. Which is confirmed in the saying, "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."

Many would describe it in this way: "Through the power of the Holy Spirit, the disciples reached the then-known world in a relatively short time. Joel's prediction of the early rain was fulfilled at Pentecost, but the latter rain will fall with greater power to ready earth's final harvest." Which also only eludes to the greater "first the natural (Israel), but afterward the spiritual (Gentiles)" description of the overall implementation of God's great salvation plans.

@nedsk