What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Waiting on him]

Yes, however the entire story / meaning / context is different than what I think you've heard.

Would it be a very lengthy post to tell the story?

 

[Waiting on him]

Would it be a very lengthy post to tell the story?

I’m aware people try to vilify what they don’t understand, I’ve been guilty of this myself

 

[4Jesus]

You are thinking that it is not obvious that your underlying intent is negative and rude. I am saying, have a blast....discuss.....manners.

Show me proof of rudeness when discussing words and their meanings. I'll wait. Show me proof that in any way what I said to her was not factual, thus negative. I'll wait.

You on the other hand, with your false accusations and integrity questioning, is negative and beyond rude.

And now you're telling me what I think and don't see, that I'm oblivious, but not one reply of mine from you, against your false accusation and questioning of my thinking leads you to what you are doing - that's called projection. And telling someone what they think is beyond rude, and yet you don't see that.

Your manners are out of whack - projection from you at it's finest. You know who else falsely accusses someone? You know who else questions someone's integrity when the situation didn't even involve what you're suggesting?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Would it be a very lengthy post to tell the story?

Sure can do.
Any particular part you'd like me to talk about? (so I can talk about that rather than other stuff)

 

[Waiting on him]

Sure can do.
Any particular part you'd like me to talk about? (so I can talk about that rather than other stuff)

I’ve only heard campfire versions.

 

[Waiting on him]

Sure can do.
Any particular part you'd like me to talk about? (so I can talk about that rather than other stuff)

Were they gold, and why gold

 

[Grailhunter]

Show me proof of rudeness when discussing words and their meanings. I'll wait. Show me proof that in any way what I said to her was not factual, thus negative. I'll wait.

You on the other hand, with your false accusations and integrity questioning, is negative and beyond rude.

And now you're telling me what I think and don't see, that I'm oblivious, but not one reply of mine from you against your false accusation and questioning of my thinking leads you to what you are doing - that's called projection.

Your manners are out of whack - projection from you at it's finest. You know who else falsely accusses someone? You know who else questions someone's integrity when the situation didn't even involve what you're suggesting?

I was following along....ask her if she thought you were being rude....sometimes we learn and I am sure she is forgiving...me and you can settle this later.

 

[Waiting on him]

And I’ve also heard they were given due to the fact that the church had been corrupted, and I can relate to this?

 

[4Jesus]

I was following along....ask her if she thought you were being rude....sometimes we learn and I am sure she is forgiving...me and you can settle this later.

Na, in fact, if you go back to the post at around 9 PM EST, we were getting along just fine.

I'll PM you, let's settle this now.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Were they gold, and why gold

Gold is the word used. Now, what exactly that means, is not specified. Could simply be gold colored, or partially gold (like modern carat system), etc.

And I’ve also heard they were given due to the fact that the church had been corrupted, and I can relate to this?

No really. Going to break down a few subjects here:
What eventually became the Book of Mormon was given as scripture to help guide the world. Just like all scripture.

LDS Christians believe very firmly that God still lives and still speaks: revelation from Him is continuous.

The belief in the Great Apostacy is that the church leadership went astray in the early centuries. That's not to say that lots of people didn't still love Christ and strive to follow Him, but there were errors that crept in. Good link: The Great Apostasy

I’ve only heard campfire versions.

Here for simple-linking: Book of Mormon

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The following excerpt is from Chapter 21 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

In 2012, Michael and I traveled to the land of Israel and into the West Bank. There we saw the ruins of Shechem, Samaria, Dan, the City of David, Jerusalem, and the walls of Jericho. We saw pottery, swords, utensils, coins, furniture, clothing, homes, scrolls, columns, streets, and ancient synagogues and “high places.” The mountains, valleys, bodies of water, and geography of the Bible are accurate. More than five thousand existing manuscripts have been found throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa that corroborate the historicity and accuracy of the Bible.

In contrast, Joseph Smith “translated” the Book of Mormon from one set of “gold plates,” and those plates no longer exist where one can see them. The geography of the Book of Mormon has not been located, at least the Mormon Church has no official position. There is no DNA evidence that ties Book of Mormon descendants with Israelites as the Book of Mormon teaches. Historical, physical, and geographical evidence does not exist. Mormons are asked by their leaders to believe the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by faith, not by scientific evidence.

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 324-325). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.​

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Well, one might make that same defense for you, the way you speak of Vineyard Fellowships. But, having been there for five or six years, I know you cannot judge one Vineyard by another. I tend to believe, because we are all human, that could be the case with any denomination.

I was reading back through this thread, and I just now realized what you were saying here, so I reread my post showing the various churches I've attended. I was not meaning to disparage Vineyard churches at all, but I can see how you could have taken it that way. (I even misspelled Vineyard. )

What I was saying is that I attended Calvary Chapel and Vineyard, which are 2 churches that oppose each other in some ways. I believe that Vineyard split off from Calvary Chapel at some point because of doctrinal differences.

Anyway, I apologize for not making all this clearer. I really wasn't hating on your church. I went back and edited my original post to reflect this. (Even fixed the misspelling.)

 

[Prayer Warrior]

And you of course can do that.

Did Lynn bother to tell you that her husband being a high priest simply mean that he's a LDS Christian male over the age of 40?

Or the BYU doesn't have any religious requirements for it's tenured faulty and some are openly atheist? (Same with the non-tenured, students, and staff).

JD, as I said I would, I checked out the claims you made in your comment quoted above. Here's what Lynn has to say in her book:


The following excerpt is from Chapter 18 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

…Michael received a phone call from his high priest (HP) group leader. Mike had been a high priest since 1988. His HP group leader presided over all of the men in the ward who held the rank/office of high priest, which signified the higher Melchizedek priesthood (the lower is the Aaronic priesthood). A high priest was required to serve as a member of a ward bishopric, as a ward high priest group leader or one of his two assistants, as one of the three members of the stake presidency, or as one of the twelve members of the stake high council.
​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 266). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

This reading of the Bible was not going well. Maybe this is why the prophet tells us to read the Book of Mormon, Mike thought. Over and over again, the Word of God in the Bible clashed with Mormon doctrine.​

Mike wanted to stop, since all the contradictions were making him furious, but he was curious. It couldn’t get worse, could it? Again directly from Jesus: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people — robbers, evildoers, adulterers — or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get’ ” (Luke 18:10 – 12). Wow, this Pharisee sure was righteous. God must have been pleased with him.​

During Mike’s life in the Mormon Church, he was taught that he was not like other men either. Since he held the Melchizedek priesthood, he was more spiritual and holy before God. He had worn the garments of the holy priesthood for nearly thirty years. Since he had been washed, anointed, and pronounced clean, he had earned, by his righteous acts, the privilege to stand not only before the temple but also in the temple of God. The non-Mormon man (once called a “Gentile” by Mormons) could not go to the temple to do the Lord’s work. He was not worthy. He had no temple recommend. Mike did. Mike also fasted at least once a month and paid his tithe and his fast offerings to the Mormon Church. This Pharisee in the story and Mr. Mike (as his adult children and children-in-law now called him) were really righteous men. God had to be pleased with them, right?​

Jesus continued the story: “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted” (Luke 18:13 – 14).​

Mike was stunned. He quietly closed his Bible. A feeling of shame washed over him. Was he the Pharisee or the tax collector? He needed to ponder these stinging words from Jesus.
​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 272-273). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (All emphasis in bold was added.)

The following excerpt is from Chapter 19 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

We had a new Christian friend who personally knew one of the twelve apostles of the Mormon Church. Our friend graciously volunteered to ask this apostle, without naming any names, if a tenured professor who became born again in Jesus and embraced evangelical Christianity could remain at BYU. The answer came in an email from our Christian friend in early June of 2007:​

He [the apostle] is candid and it looks like there are no options. My prayer for you is to know the Lord’s wisdom now. Personally, I agree with you, the matter of your own spiritual integrity is critical and I could not live out my faith quietly or privately either. We are to be a witness of truth for him. So, are you ready to move forward? You are in my prayers and thoughts much these days as I know it will be hard. But Lynn, remember the Lord will never and has never asked anything of us that he will not give us the strength to do. As well, the Lord’s blessings are greater than the sacrifices we are asked to make. How can I help? What can I do? I am praying for you and Michael and for your family. God is good, know that you are now in his hands, and what a great place to be!​

Our friend then delivered the LDS apostle’s reply. The apostle suggested there would be near-impenetrable barriers in this situation — they had dealt with it before — and only the board of trustees (including the prophet, his counselors, and six of the twelve apostles) could execute a final determination. However, the apostle was unaware of any instance in which a BYU professor accepted biblical Christianity, no longer believed in Mormonism, and was allowed to remain at BYU, even if that person agreed not to share his or her newfound faith at work. He noted that the LDS Church financially supports the university. I had not yet earnestly considered giving up membership in the church; Mike was still attending. But now I knew that when I did, the BYU door apparently would be slammed shut.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 284-285). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (All emphasis in bold was added.)

 

[brakelite]

, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you.”

Thiat isan interesting incident. Obviously the demons were being cast out, and the faith and authority those 'strangers' were working under was effective. On the other hand we have another incident...
KJV Acts 19
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

What we are attempting to ascertain here is on which side do the LDS folk sit on. While they may speak the name of Jesus and do works in His name, what will Jesus say to them in the final analysis... Paul I know and Steven I know... But who are you? It is my fervent prayer and hope that in Jane Does case, this shall not be. My fear is that a great many Mormons are trusting in these ceremonies and rituals in order to be saved. And in their membership of a church which claims to be the vessel for a gospel that until the 19 th century, no one was aware of. If that is the case, we all need to be Mormons... None of us know Christ... And the demons are pouncing all over us and jumping up and down on our long held convictions with glee. But you and I know that is not the case.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

What we are attempting to ascertain here is on which side do the LDS folk sit on. While they may speak the name of Jesus and do works in His name, what will Jesus say to them in the final analysis... Paul I know and Steven I know... But who are you? It is my fervent prayer and hope that in Jane Does case, this shall not be. My fear is that a great many Mormons are trusting in these ceremonies and rituals in order to be saved. And in their membership of a church which claims to be the vessel for a gospel that until the 19 th century, no one was aware of. If that is the case, we all need to be Mormons... None of us know Christ... And the demons are pouncing all over us and jumping up and down on our long held convictions with glee. But you and I know that is not the case.

Very well spoken, Brakelite! These are BIG concerns of mine. I'm also concerned about seekers who look at Mormonism and think it is a legitimate denomination within biblical Christianity. I hate to see anyone get sucked into a cult.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The following excerpt is from Chapter 1 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

My husband, Michael, was sitting behind the podium in his dark suit and tie. He’d been at church since early morning, in meetings related to his responsibilities as one of three members of the bishopric. (This is similar to being an assistant pastor.) I was accustomed to sitting alone with the kids and was proud of Michael for his calling and his commitment to the Mormon Church — also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the LDS Church.

The opening hymn began as we slid into seats in the back. It was fast-and-testimony Sunday, a once-a-month church service. Members fasted for twenty-four hours prior to the service and then filed up to the podium during the service to bear testimony of their love for the Mormon gospel. (Our son Micah hated to be late on these days, because the only seats left were way in the back. He preferred to sit up front, in ready position to bear his testimony.)

Mormon hymns are not all that rousing compared with, say, the gospel songs of the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir, but most people in the congregation knew this one by heart. We obediently joined in the singing about Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon faith.​

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings will extol him and nations revere.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.(1)​

When the testimonies began, Micah [author's son] strode up the long aisle to the front of the plain chapel (we had pews but no cross, windows, or artwork) and up the steps. The bishop gave Mike a you’re-doing-a-great-job-as-a-father wink.

Micah leaned down to speak into the microphone.

“I’ve had a very spiritual week. Every morning this week at 5:00 a.m., my girlfriend and I went to the Mount Timpanogos Temple before school to perform baptisms for the dead. It was so amazing. The Spirit was so strong….”​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 15-17). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (Emphasis in bold has been added.)

Footnotes:

1. Hymn 27, “Praise to the Man,” Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1985). This hymn was written before 1872.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 363). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The following excerpt is from Chapter 21 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

In 2012, Michael and I traveled to the land of Israel and into the West Bank. There we saw the ruins of Shechem, Samaria, Dan, the City of David, Jerusalem, and the walls of Jericho. We saw pottery, swords, utensils, coins, furniture, clothing, homes, scrolls, columns, streets, and ancient synagogues and “high places.” The mountains, valleys, bodies of water, and geography of the Bible are accurate. More than five thousand existing manuscripts have been found throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa that corroborate the historicity and accuracy of the Bible.

In contrast, Joseph Smith “translated” the Book of Mormon from one set of “gold plates,” and those plates no longer exist where one can see them. The geography of the Book of Mormon has not been located, at least the Mormon Church has no official position. There is no DNA evidence that ties Book of Mormon descendants with Israelites as the Book of Mormon teaches. Historical, physical, and geographical evidence does not exist. Mormons are asked by their leaders to believe the authenticity of the Book of Mormon by faith, not by scientific evidence.

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 324-325). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.​

Already responded to the exact same quote and had my response ignored:

Where in the Bible does it say that "test for Truthfulness by asking ex-members of a faith?"

Where does it say "and an archeologist will reveal the Truth to you!"

And where is my archeological proof starting right at the beginning of the Bible? Not only non-existent, but contradictory.

Where is my archeological proof that this Jesus dude is the Only Begotten Son of God? Or that there even is a God? Not non-existent.



And neither can Protestant beliefs!

Prayer Warrior, I'm trying to talk to you logically, but there's no logical ground to be had because you haven't tested things and developed a logical epistemological framework. You've demonstrated a completely lack of interest in doing so, obtaining better information. This is whole thing boils down to your repeating hearsay because it confirms your preexisting bias. Which, you can do. But I can't remotely take such seriously.

​

The following excerpt is from Chapter 1 of Unveiling Grace: the Story of How We Found Our Way out of the Mormon Church by Dr. Lynn Wilder:

My husband, Michael, was sitting behind the podium in his dark suit and tie. He’d been at church since early morning, in meetings related to his responsibilities as one of three members of the bishopric. (This is similar to being an assistant pastor.) I was accustomed to sitting alone with the kids and was proud of Michael for his calling and his commitment to the Mormon Church — also known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the LDS Church.

The opening hymn began as we slid into seats in the back. It was fast-and-testimony Sunday, a once-a-month church service. Members fasted for twenty-four hours prior to the service and then filed up to the podium during the service to bear testimony of their love for the Mormon gospel. (Our son Micah hated to be late on these days, because the only seats left were way in the back. He preferred to sit up front, in ready position to bear his testimony.)

Mormon hymns are not all that rousing compared with, say, the gospel songs of the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir, but most people in the congregation knew this one by heart. We obediently joined in the singing about Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon faith.​

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings will extol him and nations revere.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven!
Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren;
Death cannot conquer the hero again.(1)​

When the testimonies began, Micah [author's son] strode up the long aisle to the front of the plain chapel (we had pews but no cross, windows, or artwork) and up the steps. The bishop gave Mike a you’re-doing-a-great-job-as-a-father wink.

Micah leaned down to speak into the microphone.

“I’ve had a very spiritual week. Every morning this week at 5:00 a.m., my girlfriend and I went to the Mount Timpanogos Temple before school to perform baptisms for the dead. It was so amazing. The Spirit was so strong….”​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (pp. 15-17). Zondervan. Kindle Edition. (Emphasis in bold has been added.)

Footnotes:

1. Hymn 27, “Praise to the Man,” Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1985). This hymn was written before 1872.​

Wilder, Lynn K.. Unveiling Grace (p. 363). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

I love how she conveniently pretends that an eulogy (which that song is) is an oath of allegiance.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Thiat isan interesting incident. Obviously the demons were being cast out, and the faith and authority those 'strangers' were working under was effective. On the other hand we have another incident...
KJV Acts 19
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

What we are attempting to ascertain here is on which side do the LDS folk sit on. While they may speak the name of Jesus and do works in His name, what will Jesus say to them in the final analysis... Paul I know and Steven I know... But who are you? It is my fervent prayer and hope that in Jane Does case, this shall not be. My fear is that a great many Mormons are trusting in these ceremonies and rituals in order to be saved. And in their membership of a church which claims to be the vessel for a gospel that until the 19 th century, no one was aware of. If that is the case, we all need to be Mormons... None of us know Christ... And the demons are pouncing all over us and jumping up and down on our long held convictions with glee. But you and I know that is not the case.

Then just honestly ask, rather than assuming or going off of what you've been told.

 

[Blueberry]

WADR, this is all a huge waste of time. If you want to know what Mormons think then go talk (listen, lurk un-) to them. Back when I was posing innocent and honest questions to Jane Doe that were accidently misplaced in the 'Welcome' forum, I went out and did my homework. I found and perused the 'Third Hour' (or something like that??) forum for dozens of hours.

What did I discover? Firstly, that Mormons are actually people. They spend 80-85% of their time talking about normal everyday mundane (aka BORING! LOL) life issues. And that Jane actually considered the D&C equal in authority to Scripture which wasn't made as abundantly clear in our thread months later to that Third Hour post. But there are some troubling things...

Like one thread I followed about a young father who was behind on tithes. And he was distraught that he could not get his young son (1 or 2 y/o?) baptized properly because of this. He and his wife had made a prudent choice to pay down personal debt instead. Got in arrears with the church.

So many of the very supportive other posters were encouraging him to just go talk to whoever that local authority was. I never studied the administrative structure closely. "Maybe he'll bend the rules?" was the general tone of it as best as I can recall.

Thus I was conflicted. People who were going about their daily business trying to live decently, but then these Pharisee-like additional burdens were placed on them. Kind of broke my heart for that conscientious young father.

Because of the extra stuff, here was a guy trying to do the biblical thing by paying down consumer debt and yet seemed to be risking something potentially eternally harmful on his young son. I go mostly by the man's angst to determine how burdened he felt and how serious something like this must be? Perhaps he got an exemption/extension? I never went back to look.

This is all just a matter of public record. Just like with this forum. Go read it for yourself. Don't take anyone else's word for it. Not mine, not passionate advocates nor books, con or pro. Just Mormons speaking in their own words about their real lives. Including church leadership and doctrinal and all sorts of church matters. Its the Full Mormonty!

I do find their view of the Godhead/Trinity as heretical. A few other things too.

Also ponder that I hear "authoritative" a lot, but never really can recall "Inspired". I do not know if the primary Prophet's words (not sure of the title?) have equal "authority" to the Scriptures? Or whether these additional works are considered truly equally Inspired to the traditional (Protestant) canon of Scripture?

I point out Protestant canon because I think the Apocrypha is rejected? Which if this is correct is quite interesting.

People need to examine these things for themselves.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Very well spoken, Brakelite! These are BIG concerns of mine. I'm also concerned about seekers who look at Mormonism and think it is a legitimate denomination within biblical Christianity. I hate to see anyone get sucked into a cult.

Your fear is leading you to treat me and many other people as objects that you need to "save" rather than individuals Christ loves and died for.

Do you really think God wants you to act this way? Or that such methods are going to bring closer to your beliefs?
​