Because you think that the temple is about "earning" salvation.
It's not.
What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor
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It's not.
You CAN answer my question no matter what I think, but you DON'T. I believe that there are Mormons who would answer this question truthfully and specifically. You need to ask yourself why you don't answer this way.
Of course, you don't HAVE to answer any question you don't want to answer, and you can just say you don't want to answer it, but this run-around I get from you is frustrating. I feel like you and I are on one of those hamster wheels going round and round and round....
Prayer Warrior: are you aware that LDS Christians believe that there will be folks whom never paid a cent of tithing or stepped a physical foot into a temple that will be rejoicing with the Father in Heaven?
They may believe this, but is it what LDS teaches?
I've asked you very specific questions about your temple recommend which you have avoided answering. Now, if you don't want to answer, just say so, but please don't give me the runaround. I asked you what questions you were asked in order to receive a temple recommend.
It is, despite the common myths.
The temple is not about earning salvation. Tithing is not about earning salvation.
I prefer one topic at a time. We were/are talking about salvation: giving one's everything to Him. Having a temple recommend does not equate with salvation (not remotely) and I would perfer to finish addressing the topic of salvation before moving on.
I know that having a temple recommend doesn't equate with salvation in LDS teaching.
I think that we have covered the topic of giving everything to Jesus. I was just wanting some specifics from you about what you believe in terms of LDS teaching, but it's getting late where I am, and I need to get to bed.
I have enjoyed talking to you (until I got frustrated
) But hopefully, you understand my frustration. Good night, JD!
Sleep wellI know that having a temple recommend doesn't equate with salvation in LDS teaching.
I think that we have covered the topic of giving everything to Jesus. I was just wanting some specifics from you about what you believe in terms of LDS teaching, but it's getting late where I am, and I need to get to bed.
I have enjoyed talking to you (until I got frustrated
Good night, JD!
I have to go to work now; but I hope to have the time to answer you when I get back home. My answer will bring us back to a discussion of Joseph Smith, by the way. I think my answer will show you how I view the Bible. You may even agree with me.
When you talk about the Bible as just a book, you miss the power and the life that are in God's words. Jesus said that His words are LIFE! The Bible is His story from beginning to end.
John 6:63-- The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
How can you read John 6:63 and fail to see that Jesus was not talking about words printed in a book but Living Words of spirit. Your Bbile is not spirit or life. This goes back to Genesis when God called the animals to Adam to have him name them. Adam was to act on God's behalf after God rested. He was to speak -- and I do mean speak -- to the animals, plants and even the forces of nature. Your Bible can't still the wind; but Jesus' Living Words could. Your Bible can't make things happen the way the Living Word can like separating soul, spirit, mind and flesh.
Only someone with a pure tongue can possibly speak the Living Word on behalf of God. Isaiah comes to mind. He had to have his lips purified before he could prophesy. James speaks about this need for a "new tongue" -- or "clean tongue." It's a reversal of the poisonous tongue of the serpent. Laban had such a poisonous tongue that God commanded him not to say anything for good or for evil. Even if his "words" appeared to be good, there would be a poisonous intention behind them.
Genesis 31:24 And God came to Laban the Syrian in a dream by night, and said unto him, Take heed that thou speak not to Jacob either good or bad.
There is no life in the Bible. Don't be like the naive Jews who thought that.
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Don't mistake a travel brochure about China with China. The brochure may be very, very good; but it's still not China. If you actually viist China, then you'll find out how accurate the brochure is.
I want to discuss now what a prophet is. First he is picked by God. There are ways to train to be a prophet; but it is entirely up to God who He chooses to reveal things to and when. Why does God do this? God rested after Day Six, that's why. All of God's work after that were to be performed through His servants exercising lawful dominion over the earth using the Power of the Living Word. When a prophet speaks the Living Word (and it is always out loud, even if written down later), the words are not entirely his own. They are God's words albeit each prophet has his own style and that may affect the style of writing.
God does nothing without first telling at least one of His prophets. It has to be that way since that's how God works -- through men.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
What we have are the written words on pages. That being said, any saint can bring them back to life by reading them out loud with as much intention as he or she can summon; and if that saint has pure lips and is in the Light of God, he too is speaking the Living Word on behalf of God. Every saint who says the Lord's Prayer is exercising the lawful dominion of man over the earth when he recites, "Thy kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven." That is a very powerful prayer if uttered with great intention. You have authorized God to act, you are inviting God to act -- as He sees fit.
Back to what a prophet is now. A prophet often needs to learn how to discern among several things: His own thoughts first of all; the thoughts of other people; the thoughts that could be projected into his mind from various spiritual beings; and the thoughts that can be properly be assigned to God. Samuel had to learn this. A prophet who mixes things up is of no real value.
Now it must be admitted that some "fortune tellers" are fairly good at predicting the future; and some can be deluded into thinking they are receiving thoughts from God when they are not. Then there is the possibility that a genuine prophet sins grievously (perhaps out of vanity, greed, the desire for power or lust), and God no longer works though him. Such a prophet may demand that Heaven do as he wishes; he may fall into being deceived himself by the Dark Side impersonating the Voice of God, or he may deliberately turn to the Dark Side in an attempt to get information about the future.
As good as any fortune teller may be, he is always dealing with probabilities. Imagine a toy boat floating on a river without power. If you know its position and you know about the currents in the river, you can do a pretty good job of predicting where the boat will be in ten minutes, maybe even in twenty minutes; but the longer the time interval, the more unknown factors there will be, and the less accurate the predictions will be. Thus Nostradamus was really fairly good at his short-term predictions; but as time went by, you can see how more and more of his predictions failed. Sometimes the tiniest factor can mess up a prediction. Thus a tiny fish could bump against that toy boat and throw off even the ten minute prediction. This is how fortune telling works; and no matter how many accurate predictions someone may make, eventually he'll mess up and make a false prediction. A genuine prophet cannot make a false prediction since God's Power is behind it, and God will make it happen. That being explained, I think we see what Moses wrote about predictions make wonderful sense.
Deuteronomy 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Reject my theory on why this is true if you like; but keep the rule given by Moses. Moses is not telling us there how to "prove" someone is a genuine prophet, but how to weed out a false prophet when his predictions fail. Scripture is often like that about ideas too -- with great value at showing us when ideas are false. It may be harder to ascertain the truth; but we can all use the Scripture with "profit" to weed out what can't be true.
That brings us to Joseph Smith.
Volume 2 Chapter 13 | BYU Studies -- page 182. Smith predicted the return of Jesus within 56 years. That prediction was made in 1835, and 1891 came and went without Jesus returning.
President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending while journeying to Zion—our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.
Another failed prediction was about a Temple to be built in Missouri. It never happened.
Doctrine and Covenants 84
D&C 84:2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the arestoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
. . . .
31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses—for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed--
That was predicted in 1832, and they were driven out of Missouri in 1833. There are more failed prophecies; but those two should be enough, at least for now. While I do not enjoy calling someone a false prophet, I don't see any way around it: Smith did not make those predictions under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He was speaking "presumptuously." That makes me doubt that he could discern the spirits.
Let me add now that I am certainly not condemning people who belong to the LDS church. They have a very colorful background, to be sure; one could even say a scandalous background -- but the current leadership seems keenly aware of the past scandals and shortcomings, and today they stress high moral values. The Mormons I've known, generally speaking, have been honest and upright. Sometimes having a "colorful history" can be turned into as asset if we're willing to learn from our mistakes. I still can't see Smith as a genuine prophet. . . if that matters. I could dig up more of his failed prophecies but I don't know it really interests me that much.
Volume 2 Chapter 13 | BYU Studies -- page 182. Smith predicted the return of Jesus within 56 years. That prediction was made in 1835, and 1891 came and went without Jesus returning.
President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending while journeying to Zion—our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.
Another failed prediction was about a Temple to be built in Missouri. It never happened.
Doctrine and Covenants 84
D&C 84:2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the arestoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.
. . . .
31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses—for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed--
That was predicted in 1832, and they were driven out of Missouri in 1833. There are more failed prophecies; but those two should be enough, at least for now. While I do not enjoy calling someone a false prophet, I don't see any way around it: Smith did not make those predictions under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He was speaking "presumptuously." That makes me doubt that he could discern the spirits.
Let me add now that I am certainly not condemning people who belong to the LDS church. They have a very colorful background, to be sure; one could even say a scandalous background -- but the current leadership seems keenly aware of the past scandals and shortcomings, and today they stress high moral values. The Mormons I've known, generally speaking, have been honest and upright. Sometimes having a "colorful history" can be turned into as asset if we're willing to learn from our mistakes. I still can't see Smith as a genuine prophet. . . if that matters. I could dig up more of his failed prophecies but I don't know it really interests me that much.
Ah, so you're not 100% sure that what you're hearing is actually coming from God? I hope so. It's easy to get carried away by pride thinking we're hearing from the Holy Spirit when maybe we aren't. It is always best to measure things up with the Bible.
I do not think I said we don't need the Bible. If we had pure hearts, we wouldn't. I think that is what I said.
I also base my arguments on the Bible since I expect people who say they trust it as an authority to accept it as an authority. I don't expect people to trust me as an authority.
I doubt you could produce any example that changed my mind. People tend to blame God for being harsh when the truth is they are selfish themselves. People often think God should be like an earthly father who spoils his children rotten. God can appear very harsh to people like that. If I behave like a monster and treat others abominably, I can be sure it will feel like God is punishing me when He gets around to chastising me; but He's not being harsh with me. No, no, God loves everyone. He loves the people I'm treating so horribly. He may have take severe measures with me to get me to stop what I'm doing. That's God protecting the innocent; and if I take His chastisement the right way, I will realize He wants only the best for me.
Again, your imagination is running riot. What I am saying is that the written Word is valuable when men cannot hear the Voice of God for themselves. The aim in reading it then should be to correct ourselves, to let the Bible show us where we have wrong ideas and where we are misbehaving by not showing others love. This corrects the defects on the heart. The Bible can be extremely valuable if used to help us correct our flaws.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
I can't force others to accept its reproof or correction, so its value there can be limited by what others want to do; but I can surely use it myself to reprove myself and to correct myself. Some of my best spiritual experiences have been when I discovered where I had been wrong. It's actually great fun if pride gets tossed in the waste can. Wow, I used to be wrong -- and now I can be right -- how wonderful that is. I surely thank God when the Bible or someone shows me where I have been wrong. It's a great experience. I was even reproved once by ants. I thanked God, I thanked Solomon for what he said, and I thanked the ants. "In all things, give thanks." I also laughed at myself. The ants were "more righteous than I" as Judah said of Tamar. I was going to kill them because I was angry they were in my sink. Why was I so angry? Then out of the blue came Solomon's words, "Go to the ant, thou sluggard." It was like a bright light was turned on. The ants were in my sink because I was too lazy to keep it clean. Why should I be angry with them then, when the fault was really mine? A further truth was they were cleaning my sink for me. If I didn't like it, I had an easy remedy. What a wonderful lesson it was. I also felt loved by God.
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
I am fairly confident that I know how to use the Bible to my own benefit.
John 6:63-- The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
In this passage Jesus was talking about words that HE SPOKE. These words that He spoke were recorded in God's written Word, the Bible. You know how this works! You are splitting hairs.
The following is the Strong's definition for word(s) in the above passage:
g4487. ῥῆμα rhēma; from 4483; an utterance (individually, collectively or specially),; by implication, a matter or topic (especially of narration, command or dispute); with a negative naught whatever: — + evil, + nothing, saying, word.
AV (70) - word 56, saying 9, thing 3, no thing + g3756 1, not tr 1;
I. that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
A. any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
B. speech, discourse
B. speech, discourse
1.what one has said a
C. series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)1. an utterance
2. a saying of any sort as a message, a...
2. a saying of any sort as a message, a...
Wow, comparing God's written Word to a travel brochure. This is not a legitimate comparison at all.
The words in the brochure were not spoken by God!! The words in the Bible were either directly spoken by God or inspired by Him--Spirit-breathed.
Giuliano, I want to thank you for these thoughtful posts. I agree with you on some points, disagree on others, but for all I majorly appreciate seeing thoughtfulness put into things. I actually enjoy most of your posts and the Christian way you generally approach things.
Big points of agreement are that the Bible isn't supposed to stand just as words on a page. Rather, it's supposed to be read and understood through the living Spirit. Also the importance of God still speaking and prophets. God comes first, all other things (including scripture and His servants) come second or later.
I do disagree about using Deut 18:22 for *us* to decided whether or not a prophecy has come to pass-- I find it's very prone to us humans telling God how we see things should be and then us missing the memo when God doesn't do as we were looking for.
A prophet is also a servant of the Lord, much much more than a tell-about-future-events person. I see the best way of testing whether or not someone/thing is of God is to simply ask Him.
Also, there is a temple in Missouri. Kansas City Missouri Temple | ChurchofJesusChristTemples.org
So, you compare God's written Word to a travel brochure, but His written Word comes to life when spoken?? I agree that speaking God's Word out loud can be powerful, but whether we read it or hear it or speak it, God's Word is powerful! I'm sure that you're familiar with the following verse, and it doesn't differentiate between God's spoken or written Word.
Hebrews 4:12-- For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
You and I are speaking to each other using written words, but we could well be speaking these words out loud to one another if we were within earshot of each other, right? What's the difference, except that it takes a lot longer to write than it does to speak. Either way, it's communicating what we want to say to each other.
I noticed that you didn't address the gift of prophecy, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12. In fact, you've talked a lot more about false prophets and fortunetelling than you have about the gift of prophecy.
I see this gift as being somewhat different from the OT "office" of a prophet. Paul said in 1 Cor 14:1, "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and above all that you may prophesy." IMO, this implies that any believer can have this gift as it is to be desired above the other spiritual gifts.
One of Strong's definitions for the word prophesy in this verse is "to speak under inspiration." This is how I see the gift of prophecy. The Holy Spirit moves on the person to speak what God would have them speak. A good test for whether the person is inspired by the Spirit is to compare what the he/she says with the written Word of God. The Holy Spirit will not move on someone to contradict God's written Word. Therefore, any word that contradicts the Bible should be dismissed. Also, I believe that it's up to the person hearing the word spoken to them to pursue confirmation from God concerning the word.
As you know, God gave me this gift even though I did not pursue it. I have seen Him use this gift powerfully. He usually gives me a word for an individual, but occasionally, He has given me a word for believers assembled at a church meeting, and church leaders have confirmed that the word was from God.
I am confident that there are still prophets; but I am glad I was never asked to be one. I'd be afraid of making mistakes. I have had private revelations but nothing I was told to declare publicly -- so of course, I can't "prove" it, but it convinced me that prophecy is still possible. I prayed once for something and was told my prayer would be answered within six months. I wrote the date down in my diary and then forgot about it until the prayer was answered. Curious, I checked the date. It was six months less one day.
Some things are fairly clear if a time is specified, no? Believe me, I could produce a long list of ministers from other denominations who made brash predictions and claimed they were being inspired by God. Some are still around with faithful followers. There are other denominations that were started by people who made false prophecies like the fellow who predicted the return of Jesus on a certain date, and his followers went to a mountain top (I think) to wait. Nothing happened, but that church is still around.
If we all could get answers that easily from God, why would we need prophets?
Ah, they finally got one. Better late than never. I see the ground breaking was in 2010.
Jesus said that His sheep know His voice. It never ceases to amaze me how Christians are willing to think that we can hear the devil speak to us, but not God!
So, you are for comparing what we "hear" with God's written Word?? I agree with this 100%, and I've said as much. But you don't seem to put that much stock in His written Word, so I'm surprised that you're saying this.
Then here again, you're saying that in certain instances, we don't really need God's written Word, but we really do because people trust is as authority. You seem confused.
I believe that we will need God's written Word until we are released from these bodies and we see Jesus face-to-face (based on what Paul said in 1 Cor 13). Then we will not need the written Word or the gifts of the Spirit any longer because then we will know fully even as we are fully known.
I could expound a lot more on all of this, but I don't have time right now. Sorry, gotta get some stuff done.
Why do you write such things? I did not compare them that way. I was using the travel brochure as an example.
Your Bible can read your mind? Your Bible can separate soul and spirit? Do you know what this verse means? If you can tell me that your soul and spirit have been divided, if you can tell me that soul and spirit have been separated from the flesh, then you can claim to know what that passage means. I can so claim. I also asked you elsewhere about sitting in heavenly places. I can claim to know about that too, having traveled in the spirit to heavenly places while my body was left behind on the earth.
What you are missing is how the saint can speak with a "new tongue." That is always done aloud the way Jesus spoke to the wind and told to be still.
Paul is talking about a lower variation of prophecy. Not all prophecy rises to the standard of being "Scripture."I noticed that you didn't address the gift of prophecy, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in 1 Cor 12 and Romans 12. In fact, you've talked a lot more about false prophets and fortunetelling than you have about the gift of prophecy.
I see this gift as being somewhat different from the OT "office" of a prophet. Paul said in 1 Cor 14:1, "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, and above all that you may prophesy." IMO, this implies that any believer can have this gift as it is to be desired above the other spiritual gifts.
This kind of prophecy can be incomplete the way the prophet who warned Paul was right to a certain extent.
Again, what counts as "fulfilled" seems very human-centric to me. God frequently works in ways we don't expect.
Need both. Having that direct-to-God connection / relationship is critical. But other times we also need a human servant to help guide us too.
Ugh, you're still confusing the paper the words are printed on with the words themselves!!
I don't know anything about this "new tongue" of which you are speaking. Paul talks about the gift of tongues.
I would say that a prophetic word (delivered by someone with the gift of prophecy) never rises to the level of God's written Word and should always be compared to what God has said in the Bible.
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