What required for going to Heaven?

[Elizabeth]

So...to clarify....you believe me....and many others here, are not saved, just because we are not members of the RCC? Even though your quote here from Pope Eugene here is most likely talking about The Catholic Church....as in, the Universal church...the body of believers made up from from all those who call Jesus their Saviour??

The Roman Catholic Church is the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Pope Eugene IV spoke those words ex cathedra. He was only repeating what the Catholic Church has always taught. What he said is the infallible truth. Here's the full quote:


Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

I assume that Elizabeth would also include all members of the RCC who embrace Vatican II in the damned category. In other words only Traditionalists and Pius X Catholics who reject the Pope, are saved.

A Catholic, faithful to the Magisterium, could never embrace the false, heretical Vatican II and its antipopes. Catholics know that the phony Vatican II sect is not the Catholic Church.

 

[Webers_Home]

Yes, if you mean the 10 Commandments. When Jesus was asked by someone, what must
I do to obtain eternal life?, Jesus replied, "Keep the commmandments."

Jesus didn't say the 10 commandments; he said the commandments which,
for the Jewish man with whom he spoke, encompasses the four books of
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy-- something like 400+
commandments. Jesus named only six at Matt 10:17-19.

But was Jesus correct? Yes he was. However, in order to be rewarded
eternal life; one's obedience to the commandments cannot be half baked. In
other words, it isn't good enough to obey the commandments some of the
time, nor even good enough to obey them most of the time. No; in order to
obtain eternal life via the commandments; one must obey them all the time:
no excuses, and no exceptions.

†. Rom 2:6 . .To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor
and immortality, He will give eternal life.

Those who slack off are out of luck.

†. Gal 3:10 . . Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything
written in the book of the law. (Deut 27:26)

"Cursed be" is grammatically present tense; indicating that the curse of Deut
27:26 is instantaneous.

Another problem with the commandments is the category of deliberate sin;
which can be defined as doing something that you know in advance is
wrong; yet go ahead and do it anyway. For those kinds of sins, the
commandments permit neither atonement nor forgiveness of any kind.

†. Num 15:30-31 . .The person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts defiantly
reviles the Lord; that person shall be cut off from among his people. Because
he has spurned the word of the Lord and violated His commandment, that
person shall be cut off-- he bears his guilt.

So you see; Jesus told that man the truth; but what he didn't tell that poor
slob is just how difficult it is for the average man to obtain eternal life by
keeping the commandments. But you're welcome to try if you like; however,
I'd be willing to bet a tank of premium gasoline that you've already failed. In
point of fact: I'd be willing to bet that you're a dead man walking.

†. Rom 6:23 . . The wages of sin is death.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Elizabeth]

No. Jesus was referring to the Ten Commandments. That's why when the man asked, which ones? Jesus replied, ”You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Why was he a poor slob? Jesus told the man what was sufficient for him to hear. The truth is it's very easy to keep God's Commandments when we avail ourselves of God's grace. The following is from the book: Prayer, The Great Means of Salvation by St. Alphonsus Ligouri:


“… It is a positive rule of St. Augustine that there is never a sin in that which cannot be avoided: “No one sins in that which can by no means be avoided.” And this is agreeable to the teaching of the Apostle: “But God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able; but will also make with the temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it.” [1 Cor. 10: 13] The word “issue” means the Divine assistance, which God always gives to the tempted to enable them to resist, as St. Cyprian explains it: “He will make with the temptation a way of escape.” … St. Augustine and St. Thomas go so far as to say that God would be unjust and cruel if He obliged anyone to a command which he could not keep. St. Augustine says, “it is the deepest injustice to reckon anyone guilty of sin for not doing that which he could not do.” And St. Thomas: “God is not more cruel than man; but it is reckoned cruelty in a man to oblige a person by law to do that which he cannot fulfill; therefore we must by no means imagine this of God.” [In 2 Sent. d. 28, q. 1, a. 3] “It is, however, different,” he says, “when it is through his own neglect that he has not the grace to be able to keep the Commandments,” [De Ver. q. 24, a. 14] which properly means, when man neglects to avail himself of the remote grace of prayer, in order to obtain the proximate grace to enable him to keep the law, as the Council of Trent teaches: “God does not command impossibilities; but by commanding admonishes you to do what you can, and to ask for that which is beyond your power; and by his help enables you to do it.” [Sess. 6, Cap. 11]

 

[aspen]

I left Protestantism for the RCC, Elizabeth - you obviously went in the oppsite direction. Good thing we all have Christ incommon, despite your exclusive schismatic mindset.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
People who insist upon using the commandments as a means of working out
their salvation have put themselves into a pickle. The reason being that
according to Jas 2:10 compliance with the first ten of the commandments
isn't enough. In other words; in order to use the commandments to work out
one's salvation, the worker has to comply with all of the commandments;
not just the first ten; and there are upwards of 400+ of them in the four
books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

But even so; right out of the box; before a man can begin using the
commandments to work out his salvation, he must first undergo ritual
circumcision; which is a really bad idea because according to Gal 5:3, when
a man undergoes ritual circumcision, he obligates himself to obey all the
commandments; not just the first ten; which includes obeying all the
commandments related to Temple sacrifices. Well; there is no Temple right
now, nor is there a fully-functioning Aaronic priesthood on duty at the
Temple. So that route is a dead end as far as working out one's salvation.
And keep in mind that partial obedience to the commandments is
unacceptable.

†. Gal 3:10 . . Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything
written in the book of the law. (cf. Deut 27:26)

You know what's ironic is that Paul worked his writing hand to the bone
laboriously explaining in his letters how that it's impossible to work out one's
salvation with the commandments; but for some odd reason; people ignore
him and go right on trying to do it anyway. Go figure.

Buen Camino
/

 

[williemac]

No. Jesus was referring to the Ten Commandments. That's why when the man asked, which ones? Jesus replied, ”You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Why was he a poor slob? Jesus told the man what was sufficient for him to hear. The truth is it's very easy to keep God's Commandments when we avail ourselves of God's grace. The following is from the book: Prayer, The Great Means of Salvation by St. Alphonsus Ligouri:


“… It is a positive rule of St. Augustine that there is never a sin in that which cannot be avoided: “No one sins in that which can by no means be avoided.” And this is agreeable to the teaching of the Apostle: “But God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able; but will also make with the temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it.” [1 Cor. 10: 13] The word “issue” means the Divine assistance, which God always gives to the tempted to enable them to resist, as St. Cyprian explains it: “He will make with the temptation a way of escape.” … St. Augustine and St. Thomas go so far as to say that God would be unjust and cruel if He obliged anyone to a command which he could not keep. St. Augustine says, “it is the deepest injustice to reckon anyone guilty of sin for not doing that which he could not do.” And St. Thomas: “God is not more cruel than man; but it is reckoned cruelty in a man to oblige a person by law to do that which he cannot fulfill; therefore we must by no means imagine this of God.” [In 2 Sent. d. 28, q. 1, a. 3] “It is, however, different,” he says, “when it is through his own neglect that he has not the grace to be able to keep the Commandments,” [De Ver. q. 24, a. 14] which properly means, when man neglects to avail himself of the remote grace of prayer, in order to obtain the proximate grace to enable him to keep the law, as the Council of Trent teaches: “God does not command impossibilities; but by commanding admonishes you to do what you can, and to ask for that which is beyond your power; and by his help enables you to do it.” [Sess. 6, Cap. 11]

This opinion is just that. A man's opinion based on a man's logic. If it is indeed possible for a human to satisfy the righteous requirement of the law, then why did Paul reveal that it was by the obedience of One Man (Jesus, Rom.5), that many are made righteous? What would be the point of that?

But hear a rebuttal to this idea that it would have been cruel of God. It goes this way: The law was given as a tutor. The message that God was delivering and is delivering is that no one can qualify himself for life on the basis of his own righteousness. But instead of merely telling us, God proved it. How cruel is it to prove that which is true? Would it not have been more cruel not to? Thus the law, through man's failure to satisfy it, shows us that we require a savior. This is what the bible tells us. Opinions to the contrary are disobedient to the truth.

Paul stated that if there had been a law given that could have given life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law. (Gal.3:21)

But further to this, the bible lays out the qualification and the requirement for receiving life. They are humility and faith. God gives grace to the humble. We are told that salvation is "not of ourselves", lest any man should boast. Not by works of law. So therefore, even if it was possible to avail one's self of sufficient grace to satisfy the law, this could not overrule what we know about how salvation is attained. It is not attained through the obedience to law.

Therefore, keeping the law to its righteous requirement has no bearing on our salvation. Not before or after. God did not give us the Holy Spirit so that we can afterward be justified by works. He gave us the spirit of the new birth and the Holy Spirit as part and parcel of our justification by faith. They were not given as a means to life. They ARE the life that is given by grace through faith. They are given as a result of our justification, not as a means towards it, and especially not as a means to keeping it.

One of the temptations of Jesus was to prove who He was. The devil said.."If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here". He then quoted a verse to back up his temptation. But Jesus said "it is also written".

I personally see red flags when I encounter doctrines that incite a person to further justify himself by proving that he is a Christian by his works. It is also written; After having begun in the spirit, are we being made perfect by the flesh? That question from Paul, in its context, applies to this subject.

There are many good reasons to abstain from sin. But qualification for life is not one of them. It has been removed from the equation.

 

[horsecamp]

one must due every thing perfect to get to heaven he must be perfect all the time from conception
Jesus SET ASIDE HIS Godly crown and came down to do every thing perfect for people and then he washed away their sins with his own blood

.. You are a holy and perfect people because of what Jesus had done

believe it..!!!!

 

[Dodo_David]

In John 14:6 (ESV) Jesus says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

In Acts 16:25-31 (ESV), we read the following:

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

In Romans 10:9-10 (ESV), the Apostle Paul writes, "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

In Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV), the Apostle Paul writes, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

In 1 Timothy 2:5 (ESV), the Apostle Paul writes, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

According to the above-quoted Bible verses, salvation the is the result of believing in Messiah Jesus alone for eternal life.

So, membership in the Roman Catholic Church (which is a branch of the universal Church, not the entire universal Church) isn't a requirement for salvation.

Also, when Jesus told the Jews to keep the commandments, he was referring to all 613 commandments written in the Tanakh, and he was talking to people who were under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant doesn't pertain to Gentile believers in the Messiah, which is what Apostles decreed in Acts 15.

 

[aspen]

It think of going to Heaven as submitting to God's justification and sanctification. A requirement for remaining free from Polio was submitting to a Polio vaccine - there was nothing I could do on my own to avoid acquiring Polio if I was exposed to it - God worked through my doctor to make my immune system more complete - sort of like God worked through Mary to provide me with Christ's justification and sanctification and eventual spiritual completeness. I am grateful for my health and eventual salvation.

Here is another point, doctors are not better than other people, nor should they be worshipped, but they do have advanced training and specialize in providing medical advice, medication, and care for people who are physically sick. I think of them as instruments of God's healing and I recognize their training and authority.

My understanding of the medical profession is similar to my view of Mary. She is God's instrument, provides healing for the world through her Son, is no better than us, and specializes in humility, which she received from God.

 

[Historicist]

I would reply by stating that this is a loaded question. It is a loaded because the go-to-heaven teaching is man's idea. Not once did Jesus, or the Bible writers, use this phrase, or teach this idea. People are reading it into---where it isn't. Example:

Blessed are the meek for they shall go to heaven inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

For evildoers shall be cut off but ; but those that wait on the Lord, they shall go to heaven inherit the earth. Psalm 37:9

No man can come to me except the Father which sent me draw him: and he will go to heaven I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not go to heaven inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, he will go to heaven, to him will I give power over the nations. Revelation 2:26

I could give scores more; Do you see what I mean, or no? If you still think the popular phrase "go-to-heaven" is in the Bible please locate it and e-mail me ([email protected]), I would like to know where you found it. Thank you.

 

[Dodo_David]

I would reply by stating that this is a loaded quesion. It is a loaded because the go-to-heaven teaching is man's idea. Not once did Jesus, or the Bible writers, use this phrase, or teach this idea. People are reading it into---where it isn't. Example:

Blessed are the meek for they shall go to heaven inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

For evildoers shall be cut off but ; but those that wait on the Lord, they shall go to heaven inherit the earth. Psalm 37:9

No man can come to me except the Father which sent me draw him: and he will go to heaven I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not go to heaven inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, he will go to heaven, to him will I give power over the nations. Revelation 2:26

I could give scores more; Do you see what I mean, or no? If you still think the popular phrase "go to heaven" is in the Bible please locate it and e-mail me ([email protected]), I would like to know where you found it. Thank you.

Then let's use the terminology in Revelation 20:11-15 (ESV):

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now, how do people get their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life?

 

[aspen]

John 14:3

 

[KingJ]

I would reply by stating that this is a loaded question. It is a loaded because the go-to-heaven teaching is man's idea. Not once did Jesus, or the Bible writers, use this phrase, or teach this idea. People are reading it into---where it isn't. Example:

Blessed are the meek for they shall go to heaven inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

For evildoers shall be cut off but ; but those that wait on the Lord, they shall go to heaven inherit the earth. Psalm 37:9

No man can come to me except the Father which sent me draw him: and he will go to heaven I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not go to heaven inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, he will go to heaven, to him will I give power over the nations. Revelation 2:26

I could give scores more; Do you see what I mean, or no? If you still think the popular phrase "go-to-heaven" is in the Bible please locate it and e-mail me ([email protected]), I would like to know where you found it. Thank you.

There are some major errors in lateral thought my brother.

If God was in hell, that is then heaven. Where God is, that's where I want to be. Just ask Moses about the presence of God.

When we get to heaven we will / we will not see through a glass darkly. Which means our brains are bigger....which means that if God is not stopping space exploration now, He will most definitely not stop it then.... which means that we will then travel to other planets...which then means that we have millions and millions of years to settle on other planets...which then means we will live in the capital of heaven / God's literal presence (if you see God as not omnipresent) with holiday houses anywhere in the universe!

Unless you believe we will not be free indeed in heaven....less so even then on earth....? :huh:

 

[Rach1370]

The Roman Catholic Church is the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Pope Eugene IV spoke those words ex cathedra. He was only repeating what the Catholic Church has always taught. What he said is the infallible truth. Here's the full quote:


Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

So...to once again clarify....are you saying that Protestants are NOT saved, as we are not part of the RCC?

 

[IanLC]

Romans 10:9-10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

Revelation 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, I firmly believe that a person must be a member of the Roman Catholic Church for salvation.


[SIZE=11pt]Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, ex cathedra:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“… no one, even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Denz. 714)[/SIZE]

Thats not even scriptual - ??

Millions of christians know teh name of Jesus, go to church, even call Him Lord in the flesh yet few know Jesus at all, even less know the will of the Father, Condemned Him to the pages of a book, took an awesome, vast Glorious wonderful God and turned Him into a human bean , tied Him up and Him loose when required, put so many limits, rules, and restrictions on Him, than complain because "WE" wont let Him do anything. The pharisees knew all about Jesus from the books they had and didnt recognise Him, and its the same with so many christians, The unknown God,is that who you worship???

In all His Love

In all His Love

 

[Tropical Islander]

Romans 10:9-10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

Revelation 22:14-15 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie."

Perfect summary,

it does include as a 'must have integral' - "Blessed are they that DO his commandments" Why? Because the others won't make it that far to the end of Revelation.

I just recently rediscovered what "blessing" means, it's actually effective in our lifes because its opposite = sin and rebellion is also effective in a way that it shortens our life span, i.e. same sex relationships statistically puts a human life span expectancy in half. Sin kills, and not only in theory, we can see it in our current daily life. The opposite is also true:

Ephesians 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

The blessing here Paul is talking about is a promise of long life on earth. So that is the exact opposite to willfully shorten our life expectancy by going the ways of Sodom. And all that Before even mentioning the eternal consequences.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If someone were to ask you for the requirements for Heaven, then how would you reply?

To be saved one must:

believe - "...for if ye believe not that I am He, you shall die in your sins", Jn 8:24... unbelief is a condemned state.

repent of sins, "except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish" Lk 13:3,5 ...the impenitent cannot go to heaven.

confess "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven,
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Mt 10:32,33

submit to water baptism "... be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...". Acts 2:38..no one will take any unremitted sin into heaven with them.

Upon becoming a Christian by obeying the gospel of Christ through belief, repentance, confession and water baptism, the Christian must keep Christ's works to overcome, Rev 2:26 and be faithful unto death to receive a crown of life, Rev 2:10.

 

[marksman]

Yes, I firmly believe that a person must be a member of the Roman Catholic Church for salvation.


[SIZE=11pt]Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, ex cathedra:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]“… no one, even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Denz. 714)[/SIZE]

Whose Pope Eugene IV? Was he that bloke standing next to Fred on the balcony?

Whose Pope Eugene IV? Was he that bloke standing next to Fred on the balcony?

I thought I would indulge myself and look up Eugene's story and had a bit of a chuckle.

First, he said what he said because he was always repelling boarders to saver his popery from attack so it had nothing to do with the church or scripture. In other words, me and my church are the real deal so don't you forget it.

Then I collected a few words which they use and thought "If this is supposed to be the one true church they certainly are full of their own importance. so take a look at these......


Prothonotary; Cardinal Priest; papal conclave; papal chair; Papacy; Pontificate; Conciliar movement; issued a bull; papal prerogative; Holy See; canons; condottieri; prelates

Diet of Mainz; Canon Law.

Footnote: Did they kill and eat the bull they issued? Are they called canons because they are issued by the big-shots in the church? Is that holy see or holy don't see? Is a concilliar movement done on the papal commode chair? Seems that the diet of Mainz didn't work as popes tend to be a bit overweight. Is it canon law because it is accompanied by a 10 gun salute?

Where I might ask did the one true church get all these weird and wonderful ideas from as it wasn't from scripture?

And I picked up this little gem whilst reading......

The king's ablest adviser, the humanist Aeneas Sylvius Piccolomini, who was later to be Pope Pius II

So it seems that to be the top dog you don't even have to be a christian.

If that is what the true church is like, thank God for the church that is not the true church.

 

[aspen]

Is there anyone else you would like to determine the quality of their faith or whether or not they are a Christian, Marksman? Let me know what I should do before I appear before you on Judgement Day.....