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What required for going to Heaven?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Dodo_David, Dec 23, 2013.

  1. lukethreesix

    lukethreesix New Member

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    One does not have to do anything to go heaven. However, to be glorified as a son or daughter of God and reign with Christ with power and authority, one must "endure to the end." One must be "beheaded" for the sake of Christ, that is, not literally, but remove his own head and put on Christ as one's head, submitting to the authority of Christ. If a person just wants to "go to heaven", then do nothing, be judged, and serve forever those who were willing to serve.
  2. horsecamp

    horsecamp New Member

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    As long as I don't have to do any spelling tests.. Than I have no worries Jesus has taken care of all the rest.
    And not only that he can spell perfectly to in any language. and I get to use his record of that also if its required..
  3. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, everyone.

    I reject the whole premise of this subject. I don't believe in a "Heaven," per se, and I don't find a single verse in Scripture that suggests that one should be anticipating "going to Heaven."

    To the contrary, what I DO find in the Scriptures is that we are to be anticipating the RESURRECTION! We should be looking forward to the re-creation of our physical bodies, being transformed into the same likeness as Yeshua`s resurrected, physical body.

    Romans 8:8-30
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
    13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba (Hebrew for "Da-Da"), Father.
    16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
    19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
    28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    So, we look forward to the resurrection - the redemption of our bodies, that we might be conformed to the image of His Son.

    And, what will that look like?

    Luke 24:36-49
    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    38 And he said unto them,
    Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
    41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
    Have ye here any meat?
    42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
    43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
    44 And he said unto them,
    These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
    45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    46 And said unto them,
    Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
    49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.


    And, one mustn't forget the Resurrection Chapter:

    1 Corinthians 15:35-54
    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
    36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
    38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial (Greek: epourania = belonging to above the sky) bodies, and bodies terrestrial (Greek: epigeia = belonging to above the ground): but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "a soulish body; a breathing body") body; it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "a spiritish body; a blasting body"). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a living breather"); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a life-giving blaster").
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


    THIS is what we are to anticipate, to look forward to it like a child on Christmas morning!

    Furthermore, what one typically calls "Heaven," namely, the New Jerusalem or Yerushalayim haChadashah, is coming HERE after the Millennium. It is the New Jerusalem that has the "streets of gold and the pearly gates!" (Remember this, too: There were no chapter or verse divisions until the mid-sixteenth century A.D!)

    Revelation 20:1-15:5
    20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
    8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
    10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven (out of the sky) from God,
    11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
    12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
    13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

    14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
    15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
    16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
    17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
    18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
    19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
    20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

    21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
    22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
    22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    Now, what is required in going to the New Jerusalem on the New Earth? It's simply doing what the publican did in Yeshua`s parable:

    Luke 18:9-14
    9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
    10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    It's coming to an end of yourself and realizing that there is absolutely nothing good in yourself that merits God's favor, falling at His feet and at the mercy of His court, and saying, "I know I'm a sinner and my sins are a heavy debt I owe to you. Please forgive me and help me; I'm at your mercy." THAT'S when God steps in and does the impossible-for-us-to-do! It is HE who declares us "RIGHTEOUSNESS" and it is HE who gives us life through His Son! HE justifies us through the merits of His Son!

    How He does it can be vaguely explained in 2 Corinthians 5:17-21, but it doesn't matter; that's HIS business! HE'S the One who accomplishes the seemingly impossible! Hallelu et YAH!
  4. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    IMO wallpaper posts like #43 should be scrubbed off the forum just the
    same as transit crews scrub graffiti off subway cars.

    Buen Camino
  5. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, Webers_Home.

    That's your opinion. My opinion? Try READING what I spent the time to write!
  6. KingJ

    KingJ New Member

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    Retrobyter, apart from the argument of logic of heaven as per my post # 33...I find the suggestion that God will not put us in the ''best'' place possible (that being heaven since its mentioned) extremely extremely extremely insulting to God when He has already given us the greatest gift He can John 15:13. Don't you?
  7. Dodo_David

    Dodo_David Melmacian in human guise

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    Webers is referring to your tendency to put lengthy Bible quotes in your posts, as if the more words the better.
    Your posts come across as being very wordy but with little that is substantial.
  8. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, KingJ.

    Not at all. See, the earth was created specifically for mankind and mankind was created to live upon the earth. Think about this a moment: In the garden of `Eden, all was perfect because a perfect God concluded...

    Genesis 1:31
    31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    The man was given a job to do and that gave Him a sense of belonging and purpose.

    Genesis 2:15
    15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

    A pastor friend of mine stated once that the Bible could be outlined like this:

    I. What ought to be - Genesis 1 & 2
    II. What is - Genesis 3
    III. How to get from what is to what ought to be - Genesis 4 - Revelation 22

    The man in the garden was sinless and thus in total harmony with his God and with his environment. There was complete ease between man and the animals, and he had nothing to fear. It was indeed and literally "paradise."

    Genesis 2:19-20
    19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
    20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

    Revelation 4:11
    11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

    One can take the time to compare Genesis 1-2 with Revelation 21-22 and find many parallels between the two. God is going to RE-CREATE that paradise.

    Now, the concept of "heaven" and "hell" is archaic and two-dimensional. Only when one looks at the ridiculous drawings of the Dark Ages and early Renaissance period does one see such a scenario. With a flat earth, Heaven can be above, and Hell can be below.

    But, we have learned that the surface of the earth is NOT flat but is enormously curved. It's so enormous that we only perceive it to be flat, like a fly landing on a ball as big as a city block. Now because we've discovered we live on a globe, a sphere, "Heaven" would stretch out to be the universe of stars (or beyond it in some fashion), and "Hell" has shrunk to be a pocket within the earth, possibly at its core.

    To me, either one of these scenarios is most insulting to God! God IS omnipresent. So, where is God that He is NOT?!

    Psalm 139:7-12
    7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
    8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
    9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
    10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
    11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
    12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

    However, to fully understand these terms "heaven" and "hell" we need to go back to the actual words that were penned, as close to the original manuscripts as we can find. Suffice it to say that one would find "sh'owl" to be the Hebrew word that was translated as "hell" and "shaamaayim" to be the Hebrew word that was translated as "heaven." In the Greek language of the New Testament, the words translated "heaven," "heavens," and "heavenly" are many and varied: "epouranios," "mesouraneema," "ouranios," "ouranos," and "ouranothen." All of them are based on "ouranos." The Greek words translated as "hell" are "hadees," "gee'enna," and "tartaro'oo." However, the conclusions that I drew from a complete study of all these words in all the verses that use them were NOTHING like a simple "heaven-hell" dualism! I won't take the time tonight, but I will try to discuss them tomorrow (later today).


    Shalom, Dodo_David.

    Oh, I know that. <Sigh.> I'd just put the reference down if I thought someone would actually look it up and read it. Of course, if they won't do that, they probably won't read what I put in the posts, either, but I figure if they have it in front of them without having to look it up, then the odds are better that they MAY just read it.

    I really worry about Christians these days. I can't get enough of the Scriptures! Especially something so wonderful as the last few chapters of Revelation! It's mind-boggling to me that one wouldn't ENJOY reading them!

    If people really don't like what I post, they could just skim through it to look for the parts I've highlighted or underlined as important. Those are the parts that I find pertinent to the discussion at hand. I only keep the rest of the context to flesh it out if someone has a question about the transition from highlighted part to highlighted part. That, and I have a problem cutting a sentence in half. I like complete thoughts. It probably comes from the "pack rat" in me. I can't throw ANYTHING away! I'll try to do better.

    In my defense, however, I have learned to enjoy reading whole books of the Bible in a single sitting, and I often read the whole thing aloud!
  9. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Only the Traditional Catholics such as the SSPX believed that only members of the Catholic Church are saved. The founder and members including priests of the SSPX was excommunicated by the late Pope John Paul II for opposing Vatican II (which is considered a true and legal council) and for disobeying the Pope.

    In your last sentence, which I placed in bold, you stated that Vatican II is phony. I take it then that you are a "Traditional". When one is excommunicated from the Catholic Church, one is no longer recognized as being part of the Catholic Church. You can call yourself "Catholic", but you are not recognized by the Church in Rome nor do you have any standing with her.

    Traditional Catholics oppose Vatican II and prefer the days of pre-Vatican II; yet, this is the statement given by Pope Pius IX in Vatican I:

    It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.

    These statements in Vatican I are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This also explained why the rigorist position of Father Feeney and members of the SSPX (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. What I find ironic is that those who teach this obligation as morally binding keep themselves separated from Rome rather than in union with her.
  10. BornAgain

    BornAgain New Member

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    I answered no to all three questions..first, ask if we really being faithful to God every day and is my life really being lived faithfully?

    In Luke 9:23, Jesus said this, If any man desires to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross daily and follow me. Living a faithful life means this is no longer about you. I take up my cross and bear in my body the life of Jesus and try to live for Him, and follow Him every day.

    John 14:15 (KJV)
    If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    1 Corinthians 6:19-20. We are raised out of the watery grave of baptism to walk in newness of life.

    2 Corinthians 8:1-5 they first gave themselves to the Lord. That's what it means to really be faithful.

    Galatians 2:20 the apostle Paul says, I've been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. Paul's life was no longer about himself. He had given that up and he was living for Jesus. That's what God asks from us.

    Romans 12:1, I beg you by the mercies of God that you present your body as living sacrifice in.

    Matthew 24:13,He who endures to the end shall be saved,
    Mark 13:37, what I say unto you, I say unto all, ‘watch! Make sure you're steadfast, that you don't ever lose your footing and that you remain faithful to God. And so to view heaven, the requirement is: I've got to be committed, fully to Jesus.

    The Bible teaches us that we're here to serve God and to work, John 9:4. Jesus said, we must work the works of Him who sent us while it is day; for night comes when no man works. My responsibility, yea, my privilege is to work for God in this life.

    1 Corinthians 15:58 that we're to “be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain.” The things I do for God in this life, those are the things that really count.

    Revelation 14:13 says,Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors and their works do follow them.
  11. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Just so we are straight on this, everything mentioned here is relative. Not everyone bears the same measure of fruit.These are instructions to those who have already received everlasting life. God is not in the business of granting the free gift of life so that He can sit back and observe how well we perform in order to deserve what we have been given. But I get the strong impression from some replies that this is exactly what is being suggested is happening.

    We can be assured that the life of Christ is very compelling and powerful, and it will manifest itself outwardly from within the believer to one degree or another, and in spite of whatever baggage is still hanging on in a person's life.

    God is realistic about all this. He knows what we are made of. His plan is to change our behavior and our fruit by changing who and what we are. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). For the time being until the completion of this new creation at the resurrection, we do not live a flawless life on this earth, no matter what some people might be delusional enough to think. And because of that fact, the system we are under does not demand a flawless life in order to be justified or remain justified.

    Our spirit is the part of us that is the new man, created righteous and holy (Eph.4:24). Our body of flesh cannot inherit the kingdom. It is compromised by sin. Our soul is the middle ground and is in conflict between the two natures, the flesh lusting against the spirit and vice versa. The soul is in a learning process. But that is also the part of us that thinks and reasons. It is the part of us that determines our motives. If we are working for our salvation, this is a decision of the soul. But it is a dangerous mindset to have. God gives grace to the humble. He will not allow a system of justification that gives grounds for a person to boast before Him.

    The victory that overcomes the world is, has been, and always will be---our faith (1John 5:4) It was through our humility in the confession of sin, and by way of faith, that we received what we have in Christ. If there is anything we must be steadfast in and be immovable in, it is in those two aspects. They got us where we are. And unless we forcefully resist it...fruit happens. Some days better than others. Some days absolutely excellent. But because we are inconsistent, imperfect, and in a process of transition, the covenant we are in is and remains a covenant of grace.
  12. BornAgain

    BornAgain New Member

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    I do not in a "work based" salvation. Maybe I should have put it in simpler terms...obey the gospel and be baptized for the remission of sins. If you love God, keep His commandments.
  13. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    You're reaching a false conclusion based on a false pretence of a bad translation.

    Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

    "eike" (g1500 = 'inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause') is missing.

    In essence, this is building a straw-man argument for the Word of God; changing it to something that appears impossible.

    Using the straw-man impossible commandment, you jump to the conclusion that God has given us an impossible commandment; thus God didn't expect us to keep His commandments.

    There's really no reason to even consider such deviation; Jesus solidifies the requirements of keeping His commandments.

    Jesus; "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

    Clearly, God decrees defiance to His commandments as proof that we don't love Him.


    I didn't realize this chop-shop version existed.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Important instructions deliberately left out...
    1. don't walk after flesh
    2. do walk after Spirit

    Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

    Sons of God do what God tells them to do.

    Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    The other alternative is to serve Satan.

    He that committeth sin is of the devil;

    Jesus didn't die so that we could play around with our lusts and entertain demons.

    Jesus says the opposite of what you say.

    A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

    That's up to you.

    If you decide to wilfully go against God's commandments, that's you decision.

    He that committeth sin is of the devil ...

    We can serve God, or we can serve Satan; we can't serve both.

    If we're wise...

    Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    Thank God, we have the words of Jesus so that we can know the real fact; it's dangerous to live by unlearned opinions.

    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Jesus set you free.

    Some folks demand their right to sin.

    If you make the willful decision to not keep God's commandments, whatever silly pretence you give; that's your willful action in defiance to God.

    The haughty pace themselves above the Word of God. Pretend that haughty defiance is holy.

    The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

    Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    Jesus's friends do what He says.

    And faith without works will always be dead, thus saith the Word.

    We're saved by faith ... God has commandments ... We do what He says ... It's not complicated.

    This is your doctrine, not Jesus's.

    Jesus; [colir=red]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.[/color]

    Should we do what Jesus says, our should we do what you say? ... There's an obvious conflict!

  14. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    You can slander me all you want, my friend, It is no skin off my nose.
  15. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    No slander whatsoever!

    Just encouraging everyone to do the right thing...

    Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
  16. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    No slander? Your replies consistently suggest I am promoting sin and disobedience. But I am also encouraging people to do the right thing. Yes, Jesus told them if they want to inherit life, then keep the commandment of law. But plastered all over the pages of the bible is the news and information that no member of the human race can successfully accomplish this command.

    When a teacher is sick and can't go to work, they bring in a substitute. In the same way, the human race is sick with sin and cannot fulfill the law. In Rom.5:18,19, we find out that Jesus came in as our substitute. And if that wasn't enough, His death became a substitute as well, so that through faith in Him we can be exempt from the wages of sin. I didn't make this up. It is all in the bible in case you decide one day to read the whole thing. (excuse the sarcasm). The right thing in regards to everlasting life, is humility and faith. It takes humility to accept the charity of a substitute. It takes faith to believe that it is being offered.

    1John 3:23:
    This is His commandment. That we should believe in Him and love one another as He gave us commandment. You want to be His friend? Try that one on for size.
  17. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    I just contrast what you teach with the scriptures.

    It not my fault if there's a drastic contradiction.

    For purposes of clarity, it's important to point out that any doctrine supposing to put the teachings of Jesus under the Mosaic Law; would be in defiance of the very words of Jesus, who is the Word of God.

    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

    I'm just pointing out that you teach that what Jesus tells us to do, is impossible.

    Let's contrast your teaching with a scripture...

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    The Bible guarantees us no condemnation if we walk after the Spirit.

    The whole reason Jesus came and died was so that we could walk after the Spirit.

    We see an obvious contradiction in what you say and the Word of God.

    Contrary to what you teach, Jesus says; my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

    So, your statement is in opposition to the words of Jesus.

    We contrast your teachings with the words of Jesus...

    Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

    You're teaching the opposite of the Word of God, Jesus.

    Let's contrast your teachings on this subject with the words of Jesus;

    ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


    Your substitution doctrine doesn't agree with the words of Jesus.

    Why don't you just teach and do what Jesus says?

    Yep, that's a commandment.

    Do that, and all the rest of what Jesus taught; and everything is good.

    If ye love me, keep my commandments.

  18. Tropical Islander

    Tropical Islander New Member

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    You got to the essence of it. In two sentences. Enough to meditate on for one day.

    It would really be wonderful if we all could internalize that for good. Because since that time the kingdom of God is preached, everything Jesus teaches is kingdom teaching. Period.
  19. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Someone should have informed Paul of this. He surely blundered, and so did God by allowing his letters to be considered scripture.

    Notice that Jesus did not say "since that time the new covenant is preached". Jesus told those under the law that they must keep it for everlasting life. But then in John 3:16, He FORETOLD of His death, where afterward, those who BELIEVE ON HIM would not perish, but have everlasting life. He repeated this in John 6:50,51, speaking of the giving of His flesh and our partaking of it (His sacrifice for sin). As we have learned, the covenant of faith was not revealed until after His death and resurrection. Not even some of His Apostles got it right away, as they locked horns with Paul for a time. They were as stuck in the old as you are, my friend; caught between the two covenants.

    But Paul told the Galatians what the purpose of the law was. And he informed them that we are no longer under the law for justification. He also spoke in no uncertain terms to them and the Romans, that the law was not to be mixed with grace, for justification of life. He called this "leaven".

    Keeping the moral commandments are not for the purpose of gaining or keeping everlasting life. If it is, then Paul's teachings are wrong and we are all doomed...unless anyone here thinks that they might be in complete compliance with all the law all the time.

    The "whole" reason? I have already addressed this passage. You continue to ignore the word ":therefore". If you want to understand how we walk after the spirit you must go back to the previous passages. But no, you insist on superimposing your own version of walking in the spirit instead. You are not the author of that letter. I will rely on Paul's explanation rather than yours. He was speaking of a mindset of being in agreement with the moral law. He who walks in the Spirit has his mind set on the things of the Spirit (Rom.8:5)

    Here is one of those things..from 1Cor.2:12...." Now we have received not the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things FREELY given to us by God". What things....Rom.8:32..." He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him FREELY give us all things?"

    One cannot just read part of the bible and think they know the whole counsel of God.

    Your version of the new covenant is that God freely gives us life and the Spirit so that we can turn around and use them to earn what we have been freely given (ie. your version of walking in the spirit, and its purpose). And you say I am the one in contradiction?
  20. IBeMe

    IBeMe New Member

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    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

    1. The scriptures agree.
    2. Scriptural teachings agree with the scriptures.
    3. Unscripture doctrine disagrees with the scriptures.

    The term, "new covenant" isn't in the Bible.

    What you teach disagrees with the Bible.

    The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

    ... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God ...

    Jesus says that the Mosaic Law ended when John's ministry began; The law and the prophets were until John:

    Apparently, you are offering two scriptures to contradict Jesus.

    The scriptures don't disagree with the words of Jesus.

    What you are teaching disagrees with the words of Jesus.

    "covenant of faith" isn't in the Bible.

    The only thing we have learned so far is that everything you say doesn't align with the scriptures.

    What you say is contrary to the scriptures.

    How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

    God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    So far, you're the only one trying to mix the Gospel with the Mosaic Law.

    Breaking God's commandments breaks His covenant with us and is decreed by God to be proof the we don't love Him.

    He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:

    Paul's teachings are just fine.

    So far, none of your teachings have agreed with the scriptures.

    Christians aren't under the Mosaic Law.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    You have given an unscriptural interpretation of the scripture in the past.

    That's not a truthful statement.

    Paul didn't speak of a "mindset" anywhere.

    It's you that are doing that; defensive mindset.[/b]

    The defensive mindset, on the other hand, is self-protective and self-deceptive. When this mindset is active, people or organizations only seek out information that will protect them. Truth can be shut out when it is seen as threatening. The defensive mindset may lead to learning based on false assumptions or prevent learning altogether (Argyris, 2004).

    Is this a Freudian slip?

    Straw-man argument.

    That's a false statement.

    God has a covenant.
    God has commandments.
    If we break His commandments then we've broken the covenant.

    It's incredibly interesting that you brought up the "mindset" thing.

    The defensive mindset, on the other hand, is self-protective and self-deceptive. When this mindset is active, people or organizations only seek out information that will protect them. Truth can be shut out when it is seen as threatening. The defensive mindset may lead to learning based on false assumptions or prevent learning altogether (Argyris, 2004).