What required for going to Heaven?

[kjw47]

You both err------ Jesus taught--- Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW will find it.( Gods kingdom) whereas broad and spacious the path that leads to destruction, many are entering this way.
There are not many paths to God--there is a single narrow gate to the cramped path.

 

[Tropical Islander]

"You both err"

right, and you do not explain what the "narrow path" means.




Did you ever consider to be specific? This is not the small talk forum just yet.

 

[kjw47]

It can only mean one thing--- one set of teachers on this earth actually teach Jesus' truths.( narrow gate) that leads to the door( Jesus) to get to ones final destination--the Father.

 

[williemac]

It can only mean one thing--- one set of teachers on this earth actually teach Jesus' truths.( narrow gate) that leads to the door( Jesus) to get to ones final destination--the Father.

Only one set? What's that supposed to mean? Suppose you tell us what set that is?

-------
williemac: I have concluded long ago that you are not even paying attention to exactly what I am saying.
-------

LOL ... Why would anybody?

Why? Out of respect, for one thing. You have consistently been misrepresenting the intentions of my replies by quoting things out of their context and applying your own meaning to them, and then ridiculing 'your personal version' of what I am saying. That is below the proverbial belt. Paul said..."not of works, lest anyone should boast" (paraphrased). You can ignore that all you wish. But it says what is says.

-------
williemac: And what does a rebuke sound like?
-------

This is what ignoring a rebuke sounds like; "And I will kill her children with death".

In the same passage, Jesus told those whom he called "my Servants", that if they did not repent, he would put them into great tribulation. The children He will kill, therefore, are another group. Killing is much more severe than great tribulation. Do you think Jesus couldn't make up His mind what to do with them, so that first he says he will cast them into great tribulation, then he changes His mind and says he will kill them? This is just a prime example of arguing for the sake of it without a proper examination of the text at hand. Jesus is speaking of another group he was going to kill. Jezebel, and her children, were obviously not part of the true body of Christ. They were infiltrating the true church and seducing some of them. Jesus dealt with them differently than with those He addressed as "My servants". The one with tribulation, the other with death. Two different consequences with two different groups. Give your head a shake!

 

[IBeMe]

----------
williemac: Why? Out of respect, for one thing. You have consistently been misrepresenting the intentions of my replies by quoting things out of their context and applying your own meaning to them, and then ridiculing 'your personal version' of what I am saying. That is below the proverbial belt. Paul said..."not of works, lest anyone should boast" (paraphrased). You can ignore that all you wish. But it says what is says.
----------

False! ... This is exactly what you said;

williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do."

Jesus: "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father ..."

Jesus says "doeth", but you say "not about what we do"; exactly the opposite of the doctrine of Christ.

Christians are ordered not to receive those teaching anti-doctrine of Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Why do you contradict Jesus?

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.


----------
williemac: Paul said..."not of works, lest anyone should boast" (paraphrased). You can ignore that all you wish. But it says what is says.
----------

I don't ignore it, I quote it.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Christians become Christians through faith in Jesus ... Then what?

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul warns Christians not to receive those not teaching; "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."; saying; "from such turn away".


This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


----------
williemac: In the same passage, ...
----------

I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Do you notice the difference between what you teach, and what Jesus says?

Jesus: "I know thy works".
williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do."


----------
williemac: In the same passage, Jesus told those whom he called "my Servants", that if they did not repent, he would put them into great tribulation.
----------

You contradict Revelations.

This is what Jesus really said;

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Jesus rebuked the church in Thyatira for not making a stand against this false doctrine, thus allowing it to be taught to "my servants".


----------
williemac: The children He will kill, therefore, are another group. Killing is much more severe than great tribulation.
----------

All who refuse to overcometh receive their just reward, second death, for refusing to listen to Jesus; "... to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


--------------------

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

There's tons of false doctrine all over the place ... Those that rally don't want to serve the Lord will fall for it ... Those that want to serve the Lord will expose the silly nonsense.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

.

 

[williemac]

----------
williemac: Why? Out of respect, for one thing. You have consistently been misrepresenting the intentions of my replies by quoting things out of their context and applying your own meaning to them, and then ridiculing 'your personal version' of what I am saying. That is below the proverbial belt. Paul said..."not of works, lest anyone should boast" (paraphrased). You can ignore that all you wish. But it says what is says.
----------

False! ... This is exactly what you said;

williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do."

I rest my case. You did it again. The word "this" is a clue that I am intending to apply what we do or don't do to something in particular. That something, I explained. But my explanation is of no interest to you. You don't care to take the time to consider the context of my statements such as these. You would rather take them out of their context and intended meaning and then display them as though they mean something other than what I intended them to mean. Here is the context: (Rom.4:5)..." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt". So then, as far as receiving a wage, it is not about what we do or don't do, as in the law. The law is about "do this and don't do that". I was referring to the law. And my point was that our life is given by grace and not by the keeping of the law. That is all I meant. You can dispute it all you want from your own twisted idea of what it means, but my comment was in light of a biblical principle. Your dispute is with the bible, not with me. Unfortunately, the very thing you are blaming me for; "twisting", is exactly what you are doing against my words. Thus fulfilling Rom.2:1...." Therefore, you are inexcusable, o man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things". You don't want me to twist scripture? Fine. You first. Quit twisting my words! Then maybe we can begin a meaningful discussion.

 

[kjw47]

God hasn't changed--- ot = one religion, one truth, one faith, one God---- same today.

 

[IBeMe]

----------
williemac: You can dispute it all you want from your own twisted idea of what it means, but my comment was in light of a biblical principle. Your dispute is with the bible, not with me. Unfortunately, the very thing you are blaming me for; "twisting", is exactly what you are doing against my words.
----------

LOL ... Not only do you try to twist the scriptures, you try to twist your own words to make them go away.

williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do. It is about our mindset."

Your comment is the direct opposite of the doctrine of Christ.

Jesus Christ; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Christians are warned not to receive those teaching anti-doctrine of Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Yes, the Body of Christ is happy to keep God's commandments; but that's only the bottom line set of rules.

Jesus's instruction is get the Gospel out and encourage each other to stay strong in the faith.

Serving the Lord is way beyond keeping a set of rules; God wants to see mercy.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

.

 

[williemac]

God hasn't changed--- ot = one religion, one truth, one faith, one God---- same today.

Two covenants. And BTW, He changed His mind about creating man. Furthermore, He kept things hidden until the appointed time to be revealed. No one is saying that God's nature or character has ever changed. But He is dealing with a fallen creation that has changed and whom He is planning to further change to a new creation. And He deals with us in real time. These things all must be taken into account. With man, He takes things one step at a time. There are those who figure it is up to man to solve his own problem of sin. The point of the law was to prove that this was not going to be possible. The law said..."Keep the commandments to enter into life". Jesus came on the scene and reminded them of this rule. The law had a purpose that had not yet been fulfilled. Jesus told them He came to fulfill it. As well, He spoke to a few from time to time about salvation by faith. But then He could not reveal His whole plan of redemption until after His death. Even His own disciples needed to have it all explained after He rose from the dead. The most complete understanding of the new covenant came to Paul and is shared in his letters. This is most likely why his writings make up most of the new testament.

----------
williemac: You can dispute it all you want from your own twisted idea of what it means, but my comment was in light of a biblical principle. Your dispute is with the bible, not with me. Unfortunately, the very thing you are blaming me for; "twisting", is exactly what you are doing against my words.
----------

LOL ... Not only do you try to twist the scriptures, you try to twist your own words to make them go away.

williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do. It is about our mindset."

Your comment is the direct opposite of the doctrine of Christ.

Jesus Christ; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Yet again? You quote me out of context? I explained what I meant. That has fallen on deaf ears once again.

As far as doing the will of the Father, I have no issue with that, as long as we understand what His will actually is concerning us. Words are not interchangeable. "will" does not necessarily mean "commandments" .. His will is not rocket science. First we receive life from Him freely by grace (not by any works we do or don't do), through faith in His Son, and then we bear fruit of this life, and share the good news with others. He would like us to live a flawless life if we could, but He knows this will not happen so He made provisions to keep us in good standing while working out our salvation. The provision is the sacrifice of His Son, Who has been appointed as our advocate with the Father; our High Priest.

 

[kjw47]

Paul made it clear at Hebrews 10:26---Jesus sacrifice doesn't count for those who practice sin( worker of iniquity) to harmonize Jesus truth at Matt 7:21-23)

You had some good points in your post--its always a good thing to know of the need for spirituality.

 

[williemac]

Paul made it clear at Hebrews 10:26---Jesus sacrifice doesn't count for those who practice sin( worker of iniquity) to harmonize Jesus truth at Matt 7:21-23)

You had some good points in your post--its always a good thing to know of the need for spirituality.

It isn't known for sure if Paul authored Hebrews. He probably did.
But I have expounded many times on this passage. The last verse in the chapter reveals that this is about faith. ("....we are of those who do not draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul"). The willful sin that no longer has a sacrifice is that which is done in unbelief of the sacrifice of Jesus. There is therefore NOW no sacrifice remaining..... Now, as opposed to prior. The sacrifices of animals no longer remain. This needs to be understood in its entire context. For one thing, and I mean one thing among many...the author just got through stating that He has perfected forever those who are (being) sanctified. What...forever unless he sins deliberately? There's fine print?

This merely reveals a lack of clarity concerning the old man and the new man. The part of us that is of the flesh, contains the sin of Adam, contains our sin, and cannot inherit life...is the old man. The old man has been pronounced dead already; crucified with Christ. God does not need to repeat this by more sacrifices, as in the previous covenant. The sacrifice of Jesus does a permanent job in killing the part of us that is responsible for sin. The old man rears his ugly head from time to time, lusting against our spirit, because he is not dead yet in reality. It is a position for now, because we still need our body in this life. We have this treasure in earthen vessels..." that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us". (2Cor.4:7).

Consider that if we can get the blame for sinning, then we can also get the credit for not sinning. This would result in our stealing God's glory. ( not of ourselves, that no man should boast). To avoid this, He has put a system in place where this cannot happen.

While sin is a nasty temptation, the bigger and nastier one is self justification.

 

[kjw47]

You can reason that way, but one needs to believe Jesus who said a few times because he meant it---GO SIN NO MORE---- There is no room in Gods creation for sin or one who sins.

Here is the hard one on humans---1 John 3 explains who is a child of God and who is a child of the devil--- it states---It is impossible for a child of God to practice even one sin------- this is telling all if they practice one sin they are not a child of God.

 

[IBeMe]

-------
williemac: Yet again? You quote me out of context? I explained what I meant. That has fallen on deaf ears once again.
-------

You wish it had fallen on deaf ears.

You're just a simple scripture twister; so, of course you try to contradict Jesus.

QUOTE: "This is not about what we do or don't do."

CONTEXT "It is about our mindset."

williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do. It is about our mindset."

Christ's doctrine; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Christ teaches that it is all about "doeth"; but you say, "not about what we do".

Christians are warned not to receive those teaching anti-doctrine of Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


-------
williemac: As far as doing the will of the Father, I have no issue with that, as long as we understand what His will actually is concerning us. Words are not interchangeable. "will" does not necessarily mean "commandments"
-------

Analphabet.

By definition, a commandment is the will of the one giving the directive.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus is God.
The words from Jesus, telling us what to do, is the will of my Father; Jesus is The Word of God.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


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williemac: He would like us to live a flawless life if we could, but He knows this will not happen so He made provisions to keep us in good standing while working out our salvation.
-------

Satan tries to trick Christians into believing this anti-doctrine of Christ teaching.

Theses folks weren't fooled.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The very thing you teach is the very thing the scripture warns Christians about, telling them not to receive those teaching anti-doctrine of Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. ... who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


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williemac: The provision is the sacrifice of His Son
-------

Past sins.

remission of sins that are past; the Jesus says, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.


-------
williemac: Who has been appointed as our advocate with the Father; our High Priest.
-------

There are wonderful scriptures for those who keep the commandments of God.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

If we sin through ignorance, as we grow in the Word, we have an advocate.

If we wrong a brother; first go to the brother and then God, we have an advocate.

Judge not, condemn not; we have an advocate.

But if we break God's commandments ...

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

hath not God = hath not advocate

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We might (God knows the heart) find forgiveness if we truly repent and turn; but there will be certain judgment and punishment.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But it's not guaranteed.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind ...

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

.

 

[williemac]

-------
williemac: As far as doing the will of the Father, I have no issue with that, as long as we understand what His will actually is concerning us. Words are not interchangeable. "will" does not necessarily mean "commandments"
-------

Analphabet.

By definition, a commandment is the will of the one giving the directive.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus is God.
The words from Jesus, telling us what to do, is the will of my Father; Jesus is The Word of God.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Reverse analphabet ! You cannot just insert the word "commandment" when you see the word "will", which is what you are doing. By definition, you can insert the word "will, when you see "commandment". But you are doing the reverse.

The passage says do His will. This could mean any number of things. For example, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, and is pleading with the world to be reconciled (to accept His offer). This is His will concerning reconciliation.He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. This is His will concerning our response to the sacrifice of His Son.

Past sins.
remission of sins that are past; the Jesus says, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

Sigh! Another partial quote. Let me quote the rest of the thought. ..." to demonstrate at this present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus".. Ever wonder why the word "forbearance" is in there? You, who are such a stickler for words and vocabulary?

But first, let us read this from the NKJ...."whom God set forth as propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, BECAUSE IN HIS FORBEARANCE GOD HAD PASSED OVER THE SINS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED...."

What Paul is sharing is that God, looking ahead to the cross, passed over sins that were committed prior to the sacrifice of His Son (previously committed). This was His forbearance in passing over sins prior to the appointed time of the sacrifice, SO THAT AT THIS PRESENT TIME.......those who have faith in His Son would be justified. This passage is comparing two time frames; before the cross, and after (this present time).

You are caught up in a rare and errant interpretation of this passage that is deliberately putting limits on the scope of God's forgiveness. All CREDIBLE commentaries and scholars will verify that this is not about individual past sins being remitted. You are swimming upstream on this one. But I doubt that you will listen to the majority.

And once again.. what worse thing may happen? Is this subject to private interpretation? Do you presume the license to insinuate damnation from that verse? I guess you do.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We might (God knows the heart) find forgiveness if we truly repent and turn; but there will be certain judgment and punishment.

And now, we go so far as to directly contradict a principle, just after quoting it. Impossible means impossible. It does not mean maybe. This passage is about the number of times a person can be saved: ONCE ONLY!

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And there you have it. This is called chastening, not punishment. In this example, we see that eternal salvation is still intact, even though the fleshly consequences are harsh. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Better to strip away that which is causing harm than to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The old man is already declared dead. The new man is eternal, righteous, and holy ( Eph.4:24).
Keep in mind the subject of this thread. Consequences are undeniable. But salvation is by way of faith (and humility), and will not be denied those who have faith (in humility). As John said...this is our victory that overcomes the world-our faith (1John 5:4).

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: Reverse analphabet !
----------

That means: 'not illiterate'

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williemac: You cannot just insert the word "commandment" when you see the word "will", which is what you are doing. By definition, you can insert the word "will, when you see "commandment".
----------

I'll try to take it real slow ...

God has commandments.
As you say; God's commandments are God's "will".
Therefore, it's God's "will" that we keep His commandments.

Or, as Jesus puts it; "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

Not surprising, the scriptures agree.
Not surprising, what you teach disagrees with the scriptures.

"will" = FORMAL used for ordering that something must be done (Macmillan Dictionary)


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williemac: This could mean any number of things.
----------

Only for those who despise (regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful) the words of Jesus.

Jesus makes it clear 3 verses down, the will of my Father is we doeth everything Jesus says.

24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus makes it clear that we will be judged by His words.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Jesus makes it clear what His will is; "If ye love me, keep my commandments."


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williemac: Sigh! Another partial quote.
----------

False statement, I quoted the whole scripture; not that there's anything wrong with a partial quote.

You seem to have truth issues.


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williemac: Sigh! Another partial quote. Let me quote the rest of the thought. ..." to demonstrate at this present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"..
----------

Yo genius ... You falsely accuse me of giving a partial quote ... I quoted the whole scripture ... then you give a partial quote ???

There's nothing wrong with a partial quote, but one has to wonder if you're cognizant of what you're saying.


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williemac: Ever wonder why the word "forbearance" is in there?
----------

No. It means we are saved by grace.

"forbearance" : a refraining from the enforcement of something (as a debt, right, or obligation) that is due


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williemac: But first, let us read this from the NKJ...."whom God set forth as propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, BECAUSE IN HIS FORBEARANCE GOD HAD PASSED OVER THE SINS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY COMMITTED...."
----------

Analphabet!

NKJV (no wonder you're confused by this scripture)

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed to Christians (to all and on all who believe) because God forgave their past sins (because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed).

(NKJV) 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


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williemac: What Paul is sharing is that God, looking ahead to the cross, passed over sins that were committed prior to the sacrifice of His Son (previously committed).
----------

So analphabet and unscriptural that it's painful to have to comment on.

If God already passed over our sins, then we don't have sins and Jesus didn't need to die and no one needs to ask for forgiveness.

You're trying to nullify the life and death of Jesus.

Your interpretation is contrary to the NKJV you post.

past tense: God had passed over the sins

present tense: that He might be just and the justifier

If God had already justified our sins, then He was already the justifier with no need of another justifier. Doesn't make one lick of sense!

Now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed to Christians at the present time ... because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed .

Any way you try to twist it, we're justified for sins that were previously committed, and not for future sins.

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williemac: All CREDIBLE commentaries and scholars will verify that this is not about individual past sins being remitted.
----------

You said this in the past ... I asked you to post a few of these "All CREDIBLE commentaries" ... You didn't ... I ask again ... please post a few of these "All CREDIBLE commentaries"

Never mind!

THE REAL CREDIBLE commentary says past sins are forgiven; "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

Paul agrees with Paul and Jesus, but disagrees with you; "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,"

John agrees with Jesus and Paul, but disagrees with you; "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son."

John even warns us not to receive those teaching any other doctrine.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


----------
williemac: And now, we go so far as to directly contradict a principle, just after quoting it. Impossible means impossible. It does not mean maybe. This passage is about the number of times a person can be saved: ONCE ONLY!
----------

You're not in charge of God's mercy or judgment.

They can't be set free of their sin by faith in Jesus.

They face certain judgement and punishment; but you don't have the power to take God's mercy from Him.

God is merciful to those who truly repent and cease from their sins and accept the punishment.

If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.


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williemac: But salvation is by way of faith (and humility), and will not be denied those who have faith (in humility).
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You try to contradict Jesus.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You must be worthy.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

But they which shall be accounted (a statement explaining one's conduct) worthy to obtain that world ...

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.


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williemac: As John said...this is our victory that overcomes the world-our faith (1John 5:4).
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This is what John says.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

And, warns Christians not to receive those teaching any other doctrine.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

.

 

[williemac]

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williemac: Reverse analphabet !
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That means: 'not illiterate'

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williemac: You cannot just insert the word "commandment" when you see the word "will", which is what you are doing. By definition, you can insert the word "will, when you see "commandment".
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I'll try to take it real slow ...

God has commandments.
As you say; God's commandments are God's "will".
Therefore, it's God's "will" that we keep His commandments.

I know what Analphabet means, and I was making a play on words. Lighten up. However, on that note, you have been calling me illiterate over and over again for quite some time now.. Your insults are forgiven.
However, let me take it real slow. You quoted that whoever does His will enters into life. I agree. But His will concerning salvation is that we believe on Jesus. Keeping His ten commandments are not what gets us into heaven. Faith is. This is His will. The commandments that Jesus gave are seen in 1John 3:23. Faith and love. In fact, Jesus told His disciples about a new commandment. To love one another. Now, one would think He was confused, as this is not really a new commandment, as He admitted. So why did He call it a new one? Simple. It is the replacement for all the other ones. Love is the fulfillment of the law, as Paul taught.

But as far as past sins are concerned,let's look at this logically. When a person comes to Jesus for forgiveness, all the sins that are forgiven are those in the person's past. This is a no brainer. It would therefore be redundant to mention it if that was what Paul was merely meaning to say.

However, 'forbearance" means patience, or to refrain from, or to abstain. Therefore, in His forbearance, God patiently waited for the time that Jesus would be given for the sin of the world, thus passing over the sins committed prior to that "present time". Are you willfully dismissing the use of these underlined terms or is it really yourself who has literacy problems? Paul was not merely musing that God was remitting sins at the present time in those who had faith. He was comparing "the present time" with another time...a previous time when He was patiently passing over sins. Present vs. previous. Two time periods, my friend. In fact, it was really old covenant vs. new covenant: Law. vs.faith. Read the context. Paul mentions the law several times in his testimony to the fact that we are justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. That is the context of the passage in question. Paul was making a case for faith as opposed to law, for justification. But then, context doesn't seem all that important to you in your world. Just saying....

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: You quoted that whoever does His will enters into life. I agree.
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If you really agree with what Jesus says, then why do you try to obnubilate the will of my Father which is in heaven?


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williemac: Keeping His ten commandments are not what gets us into heaven.
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But, it's necessary to keep the commandments to get into heaven.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

God's commandments are the base-line rules of conduct.

All the words of Jesus are the instructions of eternal life.

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

We have to lay down our life and follow the Spirit, the flesh isn't going to make the trip.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

In fact, we shall be accountable for all the words of Jesus.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


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williemac: Keeping His ten commandments are not what gets us into heaven. Faith is. This is His will.
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Let's see what Jesus really says His will is, instead of trying to ignore it.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


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williemac: The commandments that Jesus gave are seen in 1John 3:23. Faith and love.
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You're not telling the truth!

There is a single commandment in 1John 3:23, but that's not The commandments that Jesus gave.

You blatantly disregard Jesus; "Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."


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williemac: To love one another. Now, one would think He was confused, as this is not really a new commandment, as He admitted.
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Only if one despised Jesus.

Jesus magnified the will of God.

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


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williemac: 1John 3:23 ... So why did He call it a new one? Simple. It is the replacement for all the other ones.
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Why do you show despite to Jesus and what He says?

... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments (plural). He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1John 3:22, which you ignored, says; "... we keep his commandments (plural), and do those things that are pleasing in his sight."

1John 3:24, which you ignored, says; "And he that keepeth his commandments (plural) dwelleth in him, and he in him."

Jesus says we are to observe, and teach observation, of ALL things He taught.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...


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williemac: Love is the fulfillment of the law, as Paul taught.
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You're trying to twist that to say that it's a replacement for God's commandments.

That would be impossible, because Jesus has decreed that if we don't keep His words then that is a manifestation of the fact that we don't love Him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

The words of Jesus are "will of my Father"

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


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williemac: But as far as past sins are concerned,let's look at this logically. When a person comes to Jesus for forgiveness, all the sins that are forgiven are those in the person's past. This is a no brainer. It would therefore be redundant to mention it if that was what Paul was merely meaning to say.
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You call that logic???

You call it redundant for the Bible to say God forgave our past sins???


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williemac: However, ...
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What you said in the last post didn't work; so you're going to try some of your old tricks, "old/new covenant" and "timeframe"; but you forgot "mindset".

Why don't you rework that and add "mindset" to it and get back to me. That way I only have to flush the toilet one more time.

.

 

[williemac]

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williemac: You quoted that whoever does His will enters into life. I agree.
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If you really agree with what Jesus says, then why do you try to obnubilate the will of my Father which is in heaven?


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williemac: Keeping His ten commandments are not what gets us into heaven.
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But, it's necessary to keep the commandments to get into heaven.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
.

Obnubilate? Never heard of that. Why do you on the other hand ask me why I am doing what I am not doing? You have drawn conclusions that dismiss and ignore my heart on this matter.

And now we see a contradiction in your mindset. Here are some things Jesus said:

Math. 19:
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Luke 10:
25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

If you will notice, the above scriptures plainly show that Jesus referred to the keeping of the commandments that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. In fact, He even rightly called it "the law".

You have insisted over and over that the Mosaic law was done away with and we are not under it. But if we follow the above passages, Jesus said otherwise. He not only validated those same commandments, He confirmed that they were to be obeyed for everlasting life.
However, why do you leave out the part where Jesus said this was impossible with men?

As I said before, since Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict the unbelieving world of sin, how is it you cannot fathom that He Himself would think to do the same while on earth? Jesus gave the bad news: with men this is impossible. Then He followed it with the TRUTH> With God, all things are possible.

This is seen in Rom.5, where Paul reveals that it was Jesus who kept the commandments on our behalf, so that we could receive the FREE GIFT of life and the FREE GIFT of righteousness, made possible by ONE MAN------God in the flesh.

People are delusional if they think that God is going to go over His Son's head and reward men with life based on their own efforts. Who is attempting to justify himself other than they who do not believe or understand that life is a free gift? There is ONE who is good.

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: You have drawn conclusions that dismiss and ignore my heart on this matter.
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Out of the mouth the heart speaks ... Let's see what comes out of your heart in this post.

... out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.


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williemac: If you will notice, the above scriptures plainly show that Jesus referred to the keeping of the commandments that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. In fact, He even rightly called it "the law".
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Childish deception tactics? ... You're just not telling the truth.

Jesus didn't call the ten commandments "the law".

Why do you show despite for Jesus and what He said?

In Matthew 19, Jesus was speaking to a rich man about the commandments.

In Like 10, Jesus was speaking to a lawyer about the Law.


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williemac: You have insisted over and over that the Mosaic law was done away with and we are not under it. But if we follow the above passages, Jesus said otherwise. He not only validated those same commandments, He confirmed that they were to be obeyed for everlasting life.
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Where'd you learn this childish trick? ... Third grade? ... Mixing two different scenarios together to build a false accusation.

Yes, Jesus says we must keep the commandments.

... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Yes, we are not justified by works (cardinal ordinances) of the Mosaic Law.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

But Jesus also said ...

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The works of the Mosaic Law are done away.

Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

But the righteousness of the Law wasn't done away with.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That which God has declared right/wrong has been magnified.

Jesus came to magnify the righteousness of the law; not destroy the law.

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. ... he will magnify the law, and make it honourable

Jesus came and died so that born-again-of-the-Spirit-new-creatures-in-Christ-Jesus-sons-of-God would have the POWER to worship God in Spirit and truth.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


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williemac: As I said before, since Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict the unbelieving world of sin, how is it you cannot fathom that He Himself would think to do the same while on earth?
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That statement makes no sense to me, but I'm not seeking clarification.


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williemac: Jesus gave the bad news: with men this is impossible. Then He followed it with the TRUTH> With God, all things are possible.
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Do you really think there's anyone who doesn't know that Jesus said that about the rich man? ... Why do you constantly try to misrepresent what Jesus says?

But Jesus does warn ...

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Not because it's hard ...

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Many would rather enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.


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williemac: This is seen in Rom.5, where Paul reveals that it was Jesus who kept the commandments on our behalf, so that we could receive the FREE GIFT of life and the FREE GIFT of righteousness, made possible by ONE MAN------God in the flesh.
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Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.


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williemac: People are delusional if they think that God is going to go over His Son's head and reward men with life based on their own efforts. Who is attempting to justify himself other than they who do not believe or understand that life is a free gift? There is ONE who is good.
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For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

.

 

[williemac]

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williemac: If you will notice, the above scriptures plainly show that Jesus referred to the keeping of the commandments that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai. In fact, He even rightly called it "the law".
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Childish deception tactics? ... You're just not telling the truth.

Jesus didn't call the ten commandments "the law".

To be honest, I think it is you who is deceived. On the other hand, you are accusing me of using childish deceptive tactics; not just deceived, but a deliberate deceiver. This is more than a mere disagreement with my understanding. You are addressing my motives and my agenda. Personal attack.

However, I merely quoted a passage where Jesus asked the lawyer what the law says. The Lawyer replied to love your God and your neighbor. Jesus validated his reply. You going to tell me that this is not from the ten commandments? Give your head a shake.

As for what you call the Mosaic law, you are most certainly misinformed. Moses brought the ten commandments down from Mount Sinai. They were the basis of the law of Moses. When they were told to keep the law, they understood full well that this was the ten commandments. The description you give concerning what you call the Mosaic law, is all about what the priesthood was involved with.

Here is your quote: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
But the righteousness of the Law wasn't done away with.

Is that so? Well, I have a quote right back at ya. Rom.10:4...." For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" .
And continuing on.....5For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Your head is buried deeply in the sand of works/righteousness. I will continue to pray that your eyes will be opened, and that you will find the humility to accept life as a free gift rather than something you have to work for.