What required for going to Heaven?

[IBeMe]

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williemac: But hey, just because you have a new favorite word (analphabetic), this is no excuse to avoid what is staring in your face. (Jesus taught law).
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Analphabetic. (unable to comprehend what is written)

Biblical Antonym: Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Your antonymous teachings are consistently contrary to the words of Jesus.

The law and the prophets were until John: ...

... since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Christians are commanded to teach the whole World to observe ALL that Jesus taught.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...

We will be judged by the words of Jesus.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Why do you keep contradicting the words of Jesus?

Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.


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williemac: The word and the doctrine of Christ is that God resists the proud. Jesus (The Word) said..."He who seeks to save his own life will lose it"
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Why do you keep teaching save his own life; that is the flesh.

Instead of teaching surrendering our life to the words of Jesus; you try to make the words of Jesus go away by antonymously teaching "Jesus taught (Mosaic) law".



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williemac: "...everyone who exalts himslef will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted"
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Humble ourselves to what?

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.



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williemac: So for those who want to merit their salvation through their own efforts, this is also transgression.
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Why do you teach doing that then?

You teach ignoring the terms of the covenant by trying to nullify the words of Jesus by presumptuously teaching that Jesus taught (Mosaic) law; thus can be ignored.

covenant: a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action

If the covenantee, through their own efforts, breaks the terms of the covenant; the covenantor is released of all obligation to perform the promise of the covenant.



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williemac: Keeping commandments is not the issue.
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You continuously teach the opposite of the Bible.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.



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williemac: Feeling justified for life by one's own behavior is.
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LOL ... Thinking you're justified by ignoring God is the message of fools.



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williemac: Rom.10:4..." Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes"
Next question. Since we are not made righteous by keeping the law, then how is it that we can become unrighteous/unsaved by breaking it (sin is transgression of law)? (of course you can always attack the grammar if you don't want to address the question)
----------

Why do you think a person can be righteous by ignoring God?



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williemac: The logic that some people are using goes something like this: " your paycheque is a free gift, not because you worked for it...but if you fail to show up for work, your paycheque will be withdrawn" If that is the case, then how was it ever a free gift?
----------

Is there supposed to be a logical thought in there?

"your paycheque is a free gift"

????????

.

 

[williemac]

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williemac: But hey, just because you have a new favorite word (analphabetic), this is no excuse to avoid what is staring in your face. (Jesus taught law).
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Analphabetic. (unable to comprehend what is written)

Unable, or unwilling?

williemac: "...everyone who exalts himslef will be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted"
----------
Humble ourselves to what?
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

OK, I'll play this silly game. Do you actually read the context, or do you just make these comments off the cuff? Here is the passage:
Luke 18:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I have been saying all along that doing all the right things is the right way to live. But this story shows how Jesus views someone who is thinking that he is justified by his lifestyle. Jesus at no time said that the Pharisee was in sin. That was not his offense. But on the other hand, the sinner, the one who knew he needed mercy and asked for it, got it.

This is not about what we do or don't do. It is about our mindset. Go ahead and do what Jesus commands. I will support you in it and do the same myself. But part of what He is commanding is that we don't consider ourselves justified by what we do. This is clearly in the text, in red letters.

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williemac: The logic that some people are using goes something like this: " your paycheque is a free gift, not because you worked for it...but if you fail to show up for work, your paycheque will be withdrawn" If that is the case, then how was it ever a free gift?
----------
Is there supposed to be a logical thought in there?
"your paycheque is a free gift"

Put your thinking cap on, bro.
I was making an analogy to the following passages:
Rom.4:4...."Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt"

Paul's point is that there is no room for both concepts in the same situation. It is either one or the other.

But he leaves no room for confusion, as he continues here.

Rom.5: KJV
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The term "free gift" is found no less than 3 places in this short passage.

Your version is that once we recieve this free gift, given (by way of His work), keeping it requires our work (obedience to commands). My objection is that if we have to work to keep the gift, then it was never free, and thus we find both grace and debt in partnership in your version of salvation. Do you honestly think Jesus intended on violating this principle? He is the one who revealed it to Paul. And He is the one who validated it in Luke 18:10-14 (refer to above)

My prayer is that one day you will admit that you know full well what I am talking about and at least say yay or nay to it. But so far, you simply look for ways to suggest I am not making any sense, thus dodging any challenge to your doctrine.

Lastly, you said: LOL ... Thinking you're justified by ignoring God is the message of fools.

I agree. But I'm not sure where that fits in with anything I have said. What am I ignoring? Have I specifically said to disobey Jesus? No, and you can't prove I did. But why do you ignore the passages I share? Are they not also from God? The bible clearly states that the keeping of commandments is what leads to life. No sense ignoring it. But the new information that is revealed is that Jesus did that for us (Rom.5), and the credit for doing it is placed on our account by faith in Him. Thus we are justified and stay justified BY FAITH! This remains a stumbling stone to those who are still trying to do it themselves, setting aside both faith and grace.

 

[kjw47]

So then only Jews are going...no Christians allowed according to you.

The Israelites were cut off of being Gods chosen-Matt 23:37-38)God did stipulate that they could be of God again--if they accept Jesus as the Messiah--they refuse. The references after that point is to spiritual Israel( meaning Gods chosen) The writer had no clue as to what the religion in the last days would be named.

If that's scriptural, then what's the scripture and verse?

.

The Bible says that He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Christians are warned not to accept anybody presumptuously teaching any other doctrine; less they be a partner in "evil deeds".

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Jesus says; "whosoever".

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

.

Exactly whomever heareth and doeth--- the problem is that only one single religion on the planet actually teach Jesus' truths. Few learn Jesus' truths and apply them.

 

[williemac]

The Israelites were cut off of being Gods chosen-Matt 23:37-38)God did stipulate that they could be of God again--if they accept Jesus as the Messiah--they refuse. The references after that point is to spiritual Israel( meaning Gods chosen) The writer had no clue as to what the religion in the last days would be named.



Exactly whomever heareth and doeth--- the problem is that only one single religion on the planet actually teach Jesus' truths. Few learn Jesus' truths and apply them.

When you say "Jesus' truths", do you limit this to merely the red letters in your bible? Some seem to do just that. And furthermore, they only seem to focus on the red letters that tell them that their life depends on their behavior. But I say that Jesus' truths are contained in all of scripture, and it is a matter of not only hearing the word of God, but as He mentioned in the explanation of the sower, understanding the word of God. But to help us in our understanding, the bible did not end with the book of John.

Jesus told people exaclty what Moses told them. Keep the commandments and you will receive life. But the "word" of God , which is also the 'truths of Jesus', informs us of the unfortunate failure of every human born after Adam to actually achieve life in this method.

So why did God make this command then in the first place if He knew it was impossible to attain? It was because of the pride of life within the human phsyche, where we are tempted to produce things that only God can produce (life and righteousness). So God said ( in so many words) ..."go ahead, give it your best shot!" "keep the commandments, and I will give you life".
But then He also deflated man's ego at every turn. He always answered their efforts with..." sorry, not good enough" . This is precisely why God introduced all the sacrifices and cleansing rituals. They served as a continual reminder that the people could not keep thier end of the deal, and were unclean sinners.

Jesus ,if you will notice, also played that card. He never let anyone think they were successful in this endeavor of keeping commandments for the reward of eternal life.

So this truth of Jesus forces the issue to another method....faith. The subject was introduced by Jesus and kept hidden in its full revelation until after His death and resurrection. It amazes me that people to this day don't see this obvious truth. In Rom. 5 and elsewhere, we are told that life is actually a free gift. That is the ultimate ego deflator. It puts everyone on the same level of helplessness and dependancy upon God's goodness rather than a man's goodness.

Make no mistake. Sin is a serious issue with God. He has made this crystal clear. This should drive us to the point of utter humility and dependancy upon His grace and mercy. But for some, it somehow just tranlsates to them trying all the harder to solve the issue themselves.

This is a double edged sword. On the one hand, sin is a deadly issue. On the other hand, there is really only One who can solve it.....guess Who? believe it or not. These are the perameters of the new covenant. God makes the promise, and we accept it by faith. The highest form of worship and service to God is to let Him be God. Do we serve Him? Yes, but not to get something from Him, but to express that which He has freely given. Life is always free. It is never not free. Yes, we are called to bear fruit. But how can it be considered fruit if it is being done as a means to and end, and not an expression of the end? The egg didn't come first. The chicken did. Fruit neither comes first. Life does. The proper mindset in this is paramount. Humility

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: Jesus at no time said that the Pharisee was in sin.
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Why do you try to contradict Jesus?

Jesus said the publican was justified (rendered righteous) and not the Pharisee.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other ...

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williemac: I have been saying all along that doing all the right things is the right way to live.
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You constantly try to contradict Jesus.


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williemac: But this story shows how Jesus views someone who is thinking that he is justified by his lifestyle.
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This story shows exactly what Jesus says it shows.

every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

And Jesus doesn't contradict himself.

Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.


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williemac: Jesus at no time said that the Pharisee was in sin. That was not his offense. But on the other hand, the sinner, the one who knew he needed mercy and asked for it, got it.
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False, they were both sinners.

The publican admitted he was a sinner and asked for forgiveness, the Pharisee didn't admit he was a sinner and didn't ask for forgiveness.

The publican was forgiven and the Pharisee wasn't.


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williemac: This is not about what we do or don't do. It is about our mindset.
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Why do you try to contradict Jesus?

Jesus says it is about what we do.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


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williemac: But part of what He is commanding is that we don't consider ourselves justified by what we do.
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We're justified by faith and then commanded to teach the whole World to observe ALL that He commanded.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...


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williemac: This is clearly in the text, in red letters.
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These words are in red letters, how come you don't teach them?

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


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williemac: Your version is that once we recieve this free gift, given (by way of His work), keeping it requires our work (obedience to commands). My objection is that if we have to work to keep the gift, then it was never free, and thus we find both grace and debt in partnership in your version of salvation. Do you honestly think Jesus intended on violating this principle? He is the one who revealed it to Paul. And He is the one who validated it in Luke 18:10-14 (refer to above)
----------

Analphabetic.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

The covenantee enters the covenant by grace (free).

If the covenantee takes the action (works) to break the terms of the covenant, then the covenantor is relieved of all responsibility to perform the promise of the covenant.


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williemac: My objection is that if we have to work to keep the gift ...
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Christians are warned not to receive those that don't teach full obedience to the doctrine of Christ; Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


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williemac: But so far, you simply look for ways to suggest I am not making any sense, thus dodging any challenge to your doctrine.
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"not making any sense" isn't a challenge, it's just not making any sense.


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williemac: Lastly, you said: LOL ... Thinking you're justified by ignoring God is the message of fools.

I agree. But I'm not sure where that fits in with anything I have said.
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williemac: "My objection is that if we have to work ..."


.

 

[williemac]

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williemac: Jesus at no time said that the Pharisee was in sin. That was not his offense. But on the other hand, the sinner, the one who knew he needed mercy and asked for it, got it.
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False, they were both sinners.

The publican admitted he was a sinner and asked for forgiveness, the Pharisee didn't admit he was a sinner and didn't ask for forgiveness.

The publican was forgiven and the Pharisee wasn't.


.

You are correct. They were both sinners. But what Jesus focused on was that the Pharisee exalted himself in all his good conduct. This is why He said that "he who exalts himslef will be abased". And of course that was my point. It was not the Pharisee's sin that caused him to be abased. It was his attitude concerning his obedience. Jesus did not say that one will be abased for his sin. He said he who exalts himself will be humbled, and gave the example of what that looks like. The issue in that parable is self righteousness, in thinking one is justified by his conduct. Did you miss this deliberately just to find something to be right about?

But then you seem content to contradict Jesus yourself. You quote Him that we are to keep the commandments to enter into life, but then you insist that His forgiveness of sin is a one time chance and after that there is no more grace available. I guess 70x7 doesn't apply to Him in your version.
But as far as the rest of your reply goes, I have already addressed all of those things in previous replies. Now you are just repeating the same stuff over and over as though I have never replied to them.

I have discussed, debated, and taught this subject of grace, faith, and the new covenant, for years. And up till now, you are the first and only person who claims to not understand me and claims that I am not making any sense. Everyone else understood me and understands me completely and either accepts what I am saying or questions it. You are the only exception I have seen who just passes it all off as though it is "analphabetic", and then accuses me of saying and doing things that I am not. So I have to conclude by all my past experiences that it is not me who is the problem in this failed communication.

You see, my friend, at the end of the day, I would rather stand before God and thank Him for His grace and mercy than to stand before Him with the list of all the wonderful things I am doing. Yeh, there's a list. But nothing on it jusitifes me. He owe's me nothing. He is not in debt to me, to give me life for my performance. He has offered life freely by His goodness and mercy. How you play this out is your business. That is how I will stand before Him. In humble gratitude. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. The bible speaks into both of these mindsets. This is the victory that overcomes the world-our faith. And this I will continue to teach and share.

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: But the "word" of God , which is also the 'truths of Jesus', informs us of the unfortunate failure of every human born after Adam to actually achieve life in this method.
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You try to contradict the Bible.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.


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williemac: He always answered their efforts with..." sorry, not good enough" .
----------

You try to contradict the Bible.

And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel.


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williemac: This is precisely why God introduced all the sacrifices and cleansing rituals. They served as a continual reminder that the people could not keep thier end of the deal, and were unclean sinners.
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If you're not lying, show me where the Bible says that?


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williemac: Jesus ,if you will notice, also played that card. He never let anyone think they were successful in this endeavor of keeping commandments for the reward of eternal life.
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Sickly contrary to the words of Jesus.

... they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy ...

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.


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williemac: So this truth of Jesus forces the issue to another method....faith.
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Faith without works is dead.


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williemac: This is a double edged sword. On the one hand, sin is a deadly issue. On the other hand, there is really only One who can solve it.....guess Who?
----------

By faith in Jesus, we're made free of sin.

Jesus says; Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Only you can make the decision to do, or disobey, what Jesus says.

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


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williemac: These are the perameters of the new covenant.
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You try to contradict Jesus.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


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williemac: The highest form of worship and service to God is to let Him be God.
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That frivolous statement make zero sense.

Obedience is the highest form of worship.

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee ...


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williemac: Do we serve Him? Yes, but not to get something from Him, but to express that which He has freely given.
----------

If you don't keep His commandments, then you're serving Satan.

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.


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williemac: Life is always free. It is never not free.
----------

And, of course, you're trying to contradict Jesus.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


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williemac: Yes, we are called to bear fruit. But how can it be considered fruit if it is being done as a means to and end, and not an expression of the end?
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Do you look for scriptures to contradict?

And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


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williemac: The chicken did. Fruit neither comes first. Life does. The proper mindset in this is paramount.
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Contrary to Jesus! ... And inane.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


.

 

[williemac]

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williemac: But the "word" of God , which is also the 'truths of Jesus', informs us of the unfortunate failure of every human born after Adam to actually achieve life in this method.
----------

You try to contradict the Bible.

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

How does "not bowing their knee to Baal" equate to righteousness acheived by the keeping of the law? Answer: They have nothing in common. Because.. "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." In case you need to be reminded, this would also include the 7000 men. Otherwise the bible is untrustworthy. But you knew all of this already. Your attempts to discredit my replies are usually far more 'analphabetic' than I have ever been. You are just quoting things that seem 'close enough' to rebutt my comments. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are not even in the same ball park. This shotgun approach is typical of those who are in over their head. The rest of your reply does more of the same and is not worthy to be taken seriously.

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: You are correct.
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No, the Word of God is correct; I just pointed out what you said was false.

You try to twist what Jesus said to promote your anti-obedience teaching.

williemac:"This is not about what we do or don't do."

You falsely said; "Jesus at no time said that the Pharisee was in sin."

You falsely portray the Pharisee as being obedient, and the publican a sinner; calling the publican "sinner" instead of "publican": both were sinners.

The Pharisee was the disobedient one; he declared himself righteous by his doctrine instead of humbling himself in obedience to God's rule.

Christians are specifically warned not to receive anyone teaching; "This is not about what we do or don't do."

Contrary to what you teach, Jesus demands obedience and that is the doctrine of Christ; Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

If we surrender our will and abide by the doctrine of Christ, then we hath both the Father and the Son.

If we, like the Pharisee, decide to abide by a contrary doctrine, "This is not about what we do or don't do."; then we hath not God.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

What you teach, "This is not about what we do or don't do.", is a direct defiant contradiction to the very words of Jesus; Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.


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williemac: ... but then you insist that His forgiveness of sin is a one time chance and after that there is no more grace available.
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If you're not lying, then show where I said that.

Apparently "This is not about what we do or don't do." makes lying OK.


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williemac: I guess 70x7 doesn't apply to Him in your version.
----------

God is in charge of His Judgment.

Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

Let's not be simple minded and ignore the rest of what Jesus said.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


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williemac: And up till now, you are the first and only person who claims to not understand ...
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I understand perfectly; zillions of scripture twisters out there ... nothing new.


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williemac: I would rather stand before God ...
----------

The kingdom of heaven requires doeth.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

We could be like the Pharisee, and make up our own rules; or we could be like the publican and repent from our ways and humble ourselves to God's rule.

... for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

.
###

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williemac: How does "not bowing their knee to Baal" equate to righteousness acheived by the keeping of the law?
----------

Can't read?

And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

I noticed, you're trying to ignore this scripture.

And the people served the LORD all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the LORD, that he did for Israel.


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williemac: "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
----------

All need to repent and surrender in FULL obedience to God's Word and not abide in their own fabricated doctrines.


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williemac: Otherwise the bible is untrustworthy.
----------

Or the reader is analphabetic.


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williemac: You are just quoting things that seem 'close enough' to rebutt my comments. Nothing could be further from the truth. They are not even in the same ball park. This shotgun approach is typical of those who are in over their head. The rest of your reply does more of the same and is not worthy to be taken seriously.
----------

In other words, you have no replie to the scriptures.

Instead of fighting against the scriptures, why not surrender in obedience to the scriptures?

This is Christ's doctrine; Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Why not just hear, trust, and do what Jesus says?

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. ... if ye do

.


Your teaching; "He owe's me nothing. He is not in debt to me, to give me life for my performance. He has offered life freely by His goodness and mercy."

Jesus's teaching; "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."

Jesus, who is a dictator, demands that you surrender your life in TOTAL obedience to Him.

.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. ... Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

.

 

[Questor]

[SIZE=9pt]Posted 30 January 2014 - 03:14 PM[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Quote[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]Rach:
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire. (Matthew 5:21-22, ESVhttp://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew 5.21-22)[/SIZE]



[SIZE=9pt]Quote[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]williemac : He will not allow a system of justification that gives grounds for a person to boast before Him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Jesus's friends do what He says.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Yeshua wants obedience, not just to what He said, but to all the Instructions in the Torah which are the commandments of YHVH. You know, the part that is written down, and was kept by our Yeshua? Not what the Pharisees said, or Rabbinical Judaism says…What G-D said!![/SIZE]


[SIZE=9pt]Quote[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]williemac : The victory that overcomes the world is, has been, and always will be---our faith (1John 5:4http://biblia.com/bible/niv/1John 5.4)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]And faith without works will always be dead, thus saith the Word.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit are what enables us to be changed into the likeness of haMashiach…We are to trust in YHVH, in the Righteousness of Yeshua, and the power of the Holy Spirit to transform us…until we keep every commandment of YHVH [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]without whining and moaning about it, and continuously whimpering, “But I am under Grace!”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Grace gives us our initial salvation in Yeshua, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, but we have to do something too…like walk in righteousness by obeying G-D's commandments![/SIZE]


[SIZE=9pt]Quote[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]williemac : It was through our humility in the confession of sin, and by way of faith, that we received what we have in Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]We're saved by faith ... God has commandments ... We do what He says ... It's not complicated.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]PRECISELY![/SIZE]


[SIZE=9pt]Quote[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]williemac : If there is anything we must be steadfast in and be immovable in, it is in those two aspects. They got us where we are. And unless we forcefully resist it...fruit happens. Some days better than others. Some days absolutely excellent. But because we are inconsistent, imperfect, and in a process of transition, the covenant we are in is and remains a covenant of grace.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]This is your doctrine, not Jesus's.

Jesus; [colir=red]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Should we do what Jesus says, our should we do what you say? ... There's an obvious conflict![/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Humans are always in a continual state of resistance to the Grace available in Yeshua. Believers in Yeshua must continually decide to walk in the commandments, and those commandments are not limited to “loving YHVH, and loving one another”! No one can be saved by the commandments, but if you claim the Grace in Yeshua, you must also walk like Yeshua did. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=12pt]Do you need to walk perfectly? You can’t do any commandment perfectly, but you need to keep them all, to the best of your ability, and seek the grace and favor of YHVH to enable you to keep them better![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Yeshua said,”[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Matthew 7:21-27 (KJV) [/SIZE]
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[williemac]

These last two replies are all over the place and are too long to reply to, notwithstanding that I have already replied to every one of the quotes and remarks countless times. IBEME seems to confuse things by pulling partial quotes of mine from out of their context and from random places in my previous replies, and does the same with scripture.

The last two replies do prove something, however; which is that anyone can find passages that tell us how to behave ourselves and anyone can find passages that show where others have behaved well. But such passages are off topic.

The topic is "how do we get to heaven?" , not " how do we behave oursleves as believers?". The latter of these two, I have no issue with.

For example, "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you". This is what Jesus actually said. This is not the topic of how to get saved.

What He didn't say in that verse is... "whosoever does their best to keep all the commandments will inherit everlasting life". But that is what the two above members seem to think that is what it means. They are simply using verses that say one thing and implying that they mean something else.

But here are a few verses that speak directly to everlasting life:

John 6:47...."Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE"

John 6:51." I am the living bread which came down from Heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world". To some, eating of His flesh is done by what we do. However, the real truth is, eating of His flesh is done by accepting His sacrifice by faith. Jesus is saying that whoever accepts His flesh offering will live forever.
Is there another verse that proves this? Yes; John 3:16..." For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting life".

But just so that there is no mistaking what that means, here is Pauls' version:

Rom.10:9; "...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" vs.10... " For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"...

summary: "WITH THE MOUTH, CONFESSION IS MADE TO SALVATION"... That is because out of the abundance of the heart...the mouth speaks.

Now, if anyone wants to start a new topic all about what we should be doing in this life and how we should conduct ourselves as believers....by all means. It is an important subject. However, if a person connects these with the requirement for everlasting life (salvation), which is what this thread is addressing....it becomes a violation of what the bible actually says about that requirement. It therefore is called "leaven". Leaven is the mixing of one thing into another thing. What we do as Christians and how we become Christians, are two different subjects.

One last thing. The subject is salvation. In scripture, salvation is that which is done to us and for us. How in the world can it be considered salvation if it is done BY US? The only thing we can do is recieve it. We cannot produce it. The two above repliers are proof that some people have no idea what the difference is between those two things.

 

[IBeMe]

----------
williemac: These last two replies are all over the place and are too long to reply to, notwithstanding that I have already replied to every one of the quotes and remarks countless times.
----------

In other words, you don't know how to reply to the scriptures that show what you teach is in direct contradiction to The Word of God; Jesus.


----------
williemac: IBEME seems to confuse things by pulling partial quotes of mine from out of their context and from random places in my previous replies, and does the same with scripture.
----------

You mean EXPOSE where you deliberately try to contradict Jesus; who is God, and The Word of God.

Making the word of God of none effect through your teaching, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus; "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

williemac; "This is not about what we do or don't do."

What you teach is the absolute opposite of the very words of God, Jesus.

You try to turn Grace into Lasciviousness by promoting your anti-obedience teaching, This is not about what we do or don't do.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus says; Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; only those that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus says, "he that doeth the will of my Father"; but you contradict Jesus with your fabrication, This is not about what we do or don't do.

Jesus says, "doeth"; but you say not about what we do.

Thus, you are denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ; trying to nullify what He says.

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

This is the doctrine of Christ; "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

This is the opposite of Christ's doctrine; "This is not about what we do or don't do."

Christians are warned not to receive those teaching anti-doctrine of Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Jesus's friends like the words of Jesus because they know that Jesus teaches the truth, and not a lie.

"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."

These words try to contradict "the words of eternal life"; "This is not about what we do or don't do."


----------
williemac: The last two replies do prove something, however; which is that anyone can find passages that tell us how to behave ourselves and anyone can find passages that show where others have behaved well. But such passages are off topic. ... The topic is "how do we get to heaven?" , not " how do we behave oursleves as believers?".
----------

Contrary to what you teach, obedience is sine qua non if thou wilt enter into life.

Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


----------
williemac: For example, "You are My friends if you do whatever I command you". This is what Jesus actually said. This is not the topic of how to get saved.
----------

Analphabetic.

The topic is; "What required for going to Heaven?"

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


----------
williemac: What He didn't say in that verse is... "whosoever does their best to keep all the commandments will inherit everlasting life". But that is what the two above members seem to think that is what it means. They are simply using verses that say one thing and implying that they mean something else.
----------

You make something up, then argue against what you made up???

Meanwhile ... back in reality ...

Those who love Jesus rejoice for the opportunity to serve God and be freed from delusional doctrines.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


----------
williemac: But here are a few verses that speak directly to everlasting life: John 6:47...."Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE"
----------

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


----------
williemac: However, if a person connects these with the requirement for everlasting life (salvation), which is what this thread is addressing....it becomes a violation of what the bible actually says about that requirement.
----------

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.


----------
williemac: One last thing. The subject is salvation.
----------

Analphabetic.

The subject is: "What required for going to Heaven?"


----------
williemac: How in the world can it be considered salvation if it is done BY US?
----------

Analphabetic.

If the covenantee deliberately breaks, or ignores, the terms of the covenant; the covenantor is released from all obligations to perform the promise of the covenant.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

.

 

[williemac]

Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

As you are saying. This is about what we do. And Jesus wasn't kidding.

But there is another way to enter into life. Believe on Jesus for everlasting life. I have shared all the passages.

What can clearly be seen in scripture is that there are actually two options in relation to the OP question.

If I can compare this to a flat tire, one has two options in changing it. He can either change it himslef, or he can call AMA and have them do it for him. Simply put, one can do it himself or allow someone else to do it for him. Either way, the tire must be changed in order to reach a destination.

These two options also appear in scripture concerning the destination: the way to eternal life, or the way to heaven, as the OP puts it.

Rom. 5:19 summarizes the second option:..." For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be made righteous".

Your replies have lied about me. I have always agreeed that we should obey Jesus. I have never promoted lasciviousness, licentiousness, or disobedience. You have simply concluded these things by your own deduction.

All I have been doing is promoting the second option in regards to gaining eternal life; which is to let Jesus do it for us.

It is perfectly within your right to try to keep the commandments yourself to gain life. (1st option) I am keeping them for another reason.

And BTW, good luck with your choice to take the 1st option. If you happen to fail (fall short) on any one point, you will be decalred guilty of all. You are in the zero tolerance lane. Stay safe, my friend.

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: How in the world can it be considered salvation if it is done BY US? The only thing we can do is recieve it. We cannot produce it.
----------

You left out this part out; Not every one ... he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

As Paul says, faith without works is reprobate.

.

 

[williemac]

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

As Paul says, faith without works is reprobate.

.

Paul never said that. James did. And go see the examples he gave. The first one was Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, and the second was the harlot's willingness to help God's messengers. Simply put, what they did proved that they believed a promise from God. So yes, if you believe you have to keep commandments to be saved, then what you do will prove it. But even moreso, what you say will prove it, for out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
But what works are we to do once we have received life? What kind of works prove we know God? "...inasmuch as you did it to the least of these, you did it unto Me". The underlying theme of the book of James is love; the royal law. He was addressing the quality of their behavior towards one another. The conclusion; real faith produces good fruit. But Jesus did not demand 100 in the fruit department. He said some would bear 100, some 60, some 30.

I venture to guess that you are suggesting that God will disqualify one who is not living up to a certain standard. No, those who are disqualified are they who bear no fruit whatsoever, as the one who buried his talent, indicating a refusal to bear fruit. Faith without works is faith with NO works.

Of course His will is that we bear much fruit. But He is also the One who says He will take a little fruit and prune the tree so that it bears more. The problem with your doctrine is that it puts the entire ball of responsibility in our court. You are leaving little or no room for the heart of Jesus , who will go to the ends of the earth to rescue one of His who has gone astray. And you leave no room for our Lord working with His church with patience, kindness, compassion, and a firm hand of chastening when necessary. Who is the one who is intolerant? Not Jesus.

There are plenty of people who think they have the Spirit but do not, being clouds without water, as Jude put it. (vs.12&19). They are the equivalent to those in the lukewarm church, who have not yet heard or responded to the Savior knocking at the door of their heart, wanting to come in and sup with them.

When the bible speaks of such, please do not confuse them with a fruit bearing believer who is struggling with his flesh. Jesus will take care of that situation in His love by His correction.

 

[IBeMe]

Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

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williemac: But there is another way to enter into life. Believe on Jesus for everlasting life. I have shared all the passages.
What can clearly be seen in scripture is that there are actually two options in relation to the OP question.
----------

Ludicrously analphabetic!

Jesus offer TWO options:
1. they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life
2. they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

This is the doctrine of Christ.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

ALL Christians are commanded, by Jesus, to teach all nations; "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded ..."

Defiantly, you teach something else; "This is not about what we do or don't do."

Christians are warned not to receive those teaching alternative doctrines.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

If a person pushes the words of Jesus aside, doctrine of Christ; the scripture says they hath not God, and we're warned receive him not are we might be a partaker of his evil deeds.


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williemac: If I can compare this to a flat tire, one has two options in changing it. He can either change it himslef, or he can call AMA and have them do it for him.
----------

Makes as much sense as the rest of what you teach!

What's the AMA going to do, operate on the tire?


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williemac: These two options also appear in scripture concerning the destination: the way to eternal life, or the way to heaven, as the OP puts it.
----------

Confoundedly analphabetic!

Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


----------
williemac: Rom. 5:19 summarizes the second option:..." For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be made righteous".
----------

The only thing that scripture says, we can be made righteous.

The scripture is speaking of the One who says; "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."


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williemac: Your replies have lied about me. I have always agreeed that we should obey Jesus. I have never promoted lasciviousness, licentiousness, or disobedience. You have simply concluded these things by your own deduction.
----------

Don't try and blame me for you contradicting Jesus ... Why do you do it?

williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do."

You teach the direct opposite of what Jesus says.

Jesus:"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Jesus says "doeth"; you say "not about what we do" ... opposite.


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williemac: All I have been doing is promoting the second option in regards to gaining eternal life; which is to let Jesus do it for us.
----------

Why do you promote something contrary to what Jesus says?

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus tells you to doeth; but you're telling Him to doeth?

It doesn't work that way; God does the telling and we do the doing.


----------
williemac: And BTW, good luck with your choice to take the 1st option. If you happen to fail (fall short) on any one point, you will be decalred guilty of all. You are in the zero tolerance lane.
----------

The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.

.
##########

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williemac: Paul never said that.
----------

Analphabet?

Yes, Paul did say that; and I posted the scripture?????

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

As Paul says, faith without works is reprobate.


.
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: Simply put, what they did proved that they believed a promise from God.
\----------------------------------------------/

Instead, let's go with the correct meaning, since James supplies that.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In this case, "justified" means, 'to demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid'; and not, 'to declare free of blame; absolve'.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: So yes, if you believe you have to keep commandments to be saved, then what you do will prove it.
\----------------------------------------------/

Your statement shows no understanding of the word, "covenant".

The covenantee must abide by the terms of the covenant to receive the promise from the covenantor.

If the covenantee decides to break the binding agreement, then the covenantor is released of all obligations to deliver the promise.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: But even moreso, what you say will prove it, for out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
\----------------------------------------------/

What if the excrement is consistently anti-Bible?


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: But what works are we to do once we have received life?
\----------------------------------------------/

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: But Jesus did not demand 100 in the fruit department. He said some would bear 100, some 60, some 30.
\----------------------------------------------/

But, God demands 100% effort!

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: I venture to guess that you are suggesting that God will disqualify one who is not living up to a certain standard. No, those who are disqualified are they who bear no fruit whatsoever, as the one who buried his talent, indicating a refusal to bear fruit.
\----------------------------------------------/

Only a good tree can bear good fruit.

A corrupt tree can only bear evil fruit.

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

We must abide in Jesus, or we won't be able to bear good fruit.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

We must keep God's commandments to abide in Jesus; "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all".

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If we refuse to abide in Jesus, keep His commandments, we won't be able to bear any good fruit.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: Faith without works is faith with NO works.
\----------------------------------------------/

Faith without all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind is faith with NO works.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: The problem with your doctrine is that it puts the entire ball of responsibility in our court.
\----------------------------------------------/

It's not my doctrine, it's Christ's doctrine that you are arguing against.

Who else, besides you, is responsible for what you do?

Looking for someone you can blame it on?

God is real particular; Thou hast a few names ... which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

If we walk with God, then God is walking with us.

If we walk away from God, then God will walk away from us.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

But, we have to put the yoke on, and keep it on, and let the yoke guide us.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: You are leaving little or no room for the heart of Jesus , who will go to the ends of the earth to rescue one of His who has gone astray.
\----------------------------------------------/

It's you who doesn't wish to leave room for Jesus's words in what you teach.

This is Jesus's words!

Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

This is Jesus's words!

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: Who is the one who is intolerant? Not Jesus.
\----------------------------------------------/

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.



/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: When the bible speaks of such, please do not confuse them with a fruit bearing believer who is struggling with his flesh.
\----------------------------------------------/

struggling with his flesh = cutie-putti way of saying you want to play around with them lusts of the flesh; feel the thrill

The fruit bearing will be evil fruit; a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

God is very merciful to a truly repentant soul, meaning they repent and cease.

Only God is in charge of His mercy and judgement.

This is Christ's doctrine, not mine.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Christians are warned not to receive those teaching against Christ's doctrine.

Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: Jesus will take care of that situation in His love by His correction.
\----------------------------------------------/

Christ's doctrine; And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

.

 

[williemac]

Brother, you are saying (almost) exactly what I am saying. However, Jesus did not use the words "cutie pie" in dealing with those men who were in sexual immorality (Rev.2:20). These men were they who He called "My servants". In your world he would have cut them off. But what He did do instead was act upon His promise to rebuke and chasten those whom He loves. I am simply cautioning you to not read condemnation into situations where Jesus is not applying it. Satan is the accuser of the bretheren. Jesus is the advocate of the bretheren. You are dangerously close to reversing those two.

 

[IBeMe]

/----------------------------------------------\
williemac: (Rev.2:20). These men were they who He called "My servants". In your world he would have cut them off. But what He did do instead was act upon His promise to rebuke and chasten those whom He loves. I am simply cautioning you to not read condemnation into situations where Jesus is not applying it.
\----------------------------------------------/

Analphabetic!

Jesus is speaking of spiritual fornication; false doctrine.

Again, what you teach is contrary to the words of Jesus.

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

As Jesus says, Christians will be accountable if they don't speak out against false doctrine; Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee ... except they repent of their deeds.


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williemac: You are dangerously close to reversing those two.
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Analphabetic!

You can't understand the scriptures you posted?

Jesus will say, "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee", if I don't expose these false doctrines.

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[williemac]

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williemac: (Rev.2:20). These men were they who He called "My servants". In your world he would have cut them off. But what He did do instead was act upon His promise to rebuke and chasten those whom He loves. I am simply cautioning you to not read condemnation into situations where Jesus is not applying it.
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You can't understand the scriptures you posted?

Jesus will say, "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee", if I don't expose these false doctrines.

.

It is you who does not understand the scrfiptures. Did Jesus not say " all whom I love I rebuke and chasten"? Well, did He or didn't He? And what does a rebuke sound like? "I have a few things against thee". And what does chastening look like? "...cast those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation". I have concluded long ago that you are not even paying attention to exaclty what I am saying. I'm not sure why I bother with you.

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: It is you who does not understand the scrfiptures.
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There's lots of scriptures I don't understand.

Infantile scripture twisting is easy to spot.

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williemac: And what does a rebuke sound like?
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This is what ignoring a rebuke sounds like; "And I will kill her children with death".

We can't fool Jesus with silly scripture twisting.

... all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts ...

I will give unto every one of you according to your works

The good rewards go to them that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end


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williemac: I have concluded long ago that you are not even paying attention to exaclty what I am saying.
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LOL ... Why would anybody?

Christians are specifically warned not to receive anti-words of Christ teachings.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

You teach anti-obedience: williemac:"This is not about what we do or don't do."

Jesus demands obedience: "keepeth my works unto the end"


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williemac: I'm not sure why I bother with you.
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I'm not sure you have a choice.

Some folks are driven to opposing the words of Jesus.

You teach just the opposite of what Jesus says.

williemac: "This is not about what we do or don't do."

Jesus: "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father ..."

Jesus says "doeth", but you say "not about what we do".

You defiantly contradict the very words of God?

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