What required for going to Heaven?

[brakelite]

Across numerous forums (and thus throughout Christianity in general) there is much confusion over the relationship between the gospel and the law. Getting to heaven is not a one step jump to glory. Its a process involving
1. Forgiveness (Justification)
2. Renewal (Sanctification)
3. Resurrection/translation. (Glorification)
The terminal disease affecting all mankind is sin. (Romans 6:23) The work of the gospel is twofold. Remove the termination point, and remove the disease. The cross dealt to the termination point. Jesus took our death upon Himself. But there still remains the problem of the disease itself. God cannot allow sinners into heaven, else the rest of creation would be put to grave risk of infection and there would be no remedy, because sin would be immortalized. Thus the disease, sin, must be dealt with while we are yet mortal beings. Before the resurrection ....therefore in this life. This is the work of sanctification. The work of cleansing the inner depths of mankinds afflicted mortal being and freeing him from the corruption, the putrid foul abomination known as sin. The result of this healing process is obedience. Obedience to all of God's commandments. Obedience does nothing in any way to earn us salvation. Justification by the grace and mercy of God through the shed blood of His Son Jesus is the only way to justifcation and forgiveness. But once justified, anyone claiming that continuing in sin cannot affect salvation is in error.
Thus there is power in the gospel. To deny that power is to cherish the disease. No disease ridden infected soul will ever enter Paradise.

 

[williemac]

Across numerous forums (and thus throughout Christianity in general) there is much confusion over the relationship between the gospel and the law. Getting to heaven is not a one step jump to glory. Its a process involving
1. Forgiveness (Justification)
2. Renewal (Sanctification)
3. Resurrection/translation. (Glorification)
The terminal disease affecting all mankind is sin. (Romans 6:23) The work of the gospel is twofold. Remove the termination point, and remove the disease. The cross dealt to the termination point. Jesus took our death upon Himself. But there still remains the problem of the disease itself. God cannot allow sinners into heaven, else the rest of creation would be put to grave risk of infection and there would be no remedy, because sin would be immortalized. Thus the disease, sin, must be dealt with while we are yet mortal beings. Before the resurrection ....therefore in this life. This is the work of sanctification. The work of cleansing the inner depths of mankinds afflicted mortal being and freeing him from the corruption, the putrid foul abomination known as sin. The result of this healing process is obedience. Obedience to all of God's commandments. Obedience does nothing in any way to earn us salvation. Justification by the grace and mercy of God through the shed blood of His Son Jesus is the only way to justifcation and forgiveness. But once justified, anyone claiming that continuing in sin cannot affect salvation is in error.
Thus there is power in the gospel. To deny that power is to cherish the disease. No disease ridden infected soul will ever enter Paradise.

He has perfected forever, those who are being sanctified. Heb.10:14. There are two types of sanctification. The one that God performs in us is spiritual and eternal. The one that we do for God is temporary and is for the purpose of making ourselves useful in this life. It does not determine our eternal destiny.
It is a mistake to think that we are partners with God in solving the disease of sin. In Gen.6:6, we find that God repented that He made mankind and determined to do away with the species. He has not diverted from this agenda. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. God's solution is to first, forgive the believer through the fact that His wrath was satisfied at Calvary. Then, to re create the believer, making him no longer a human being after Adam. This process begins with the new birth and ends at the resurrection.

In the meantime, we have the opportunity to learn our new nature through the renewing of the mind. It is not learned by doing. It is learned by understanding. Furthermore, we have been taken out of any opportunity to boast before God. Therefore, nothing we do outwardly in this life will earn what He has offered to give freely by grace, through faith....lest anyone should boast. Our outward fruit and life is intended to allow His life and love to flow through us to others, while our incentive is that we can look forward to rewards given by Jesus at His judgment seat. Sin is a hindrance and will be dealt with through chastening. Without chastening, there would be wrath. But He has chosen His way to deal with sin in the believer. Forgiveness is not removed. The new covenant is based on His promise that our sins and lawless deeds, He shall remember no more. He does this in us by looking at us according to the finished product, calling things that are not (yet), as though they were.

The old man is already dead; crucified with Christ. The new man is already righteous and holy (Eph.4:24).
But there is this matter of the "phantom pains" of the flesh. When a person loses a limb, he still experiences feeling as though it is still there, including pain. There is a memory of it in our psyche (soul, mind). The same holds true for the sin nature. God has made allowances for this.

He is not interested in sharing His role with us in the eradication of sin from His universe. There is only One God. There is only One Savior. It is simply our role to step aside and let God be God, and to humbly accept His role as solver of the sin issue. God gives grace to the humble. I dare suggest that it is the proud who desire to deserve life by their own effort added to the equation. We need to do the right things for the right reasons.

 

[brakelite]

He has perfected forever, those who are being sanctified. Heb.10:14. There are two types of sanctification. The one that God performs in us is spiritual and eternal. The one that we do for God is temporary and is for the purpose of making ourselves useful in this life. It does not determine our eternal destiny.

Hi Willie. Although we could discuss the matter of two sanctifications a little more deeply, it is the one God performs for us that I refer to. This form of sanctification I agree is spiritual, and eternal. But don't jump to the conclusion as so many do that I am advocating that there is something we do by way of works in order to help God in His task. I agree with the folowing...


It is a mistake to think that we are partners with God in solving the disease of sin. In Gen.6:6, we find that God repented that He made mankind and determined to do away with the species. He has not diverted from this agenda. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. God's solution is to first, forgive the believer through the fact that His wrath was satisfied at Calvary. Then, to re create the believer, making him no longer a human being after Adam. This process begins with the new birth and ends at the resurrection.

Note Willie that you said yourself it is a process of recreation. Being conformed into the image of Christ. How can such a process not result in obedience to God's commandments, just as Jesus was obedient to all of God's commandments?

In the meantime, we have the opportunity to learn our new nature through the renewing of the mind. It is not learned by doing. It is learned by understanding. Furthermore, we have been taken out of any opportunity to boast before God. Therefore, nothing we do outwardly in this life will earn what He has offered to give freely by grace, through faith....lest anyone should boast. Our outward fruit and life is intended to allow His life and love to flow through us to others, while our incentive is that we can look forward to rewards given by Jesus at His judgment seat.

However, the folowing I think could do with some revision....yes, we are chastened. But to what end? Is it not to cleanse from sin? Is it not for the purpose of eradicating the disease from our lives? If it isn't for that purpose, what is the chastening for? To satisfy God's bent for punishment???

Sin is a hindrance and will be dealt with through chastening. Without chastening, there would be wrath. But He has chosen His way to deal with sin in the believer. Forgiveness is not removed. The new covenant is based on His promise that our sins and lawless deeds, He shall remember no more. He does this in us by looking at us according to the finished product, calling things that are not (yet), as though they were.

And what if, like the Phaisees we resist the Holy Spirit, ignore the chastening, and continue in our sin? Does God forgive if we choose not to repent?

The old man is already dead; crucified with Christ. The new man is already righteous and holy (Eph.4:24).
But there is this matter of the "phantom pains" of the flesh. When a person loses a limb, he still experiences feeling as though it is still there, including pain. There is a memory of it in our psyche (soul, mind). The same holds true for the sin nature. God has made allowances for this.

Yes, the old man is dead. But we still have the choice as to whether we choose to live according to the flesh, or according to the Spirit. That choice we make vitally affects how we live, and the fruits of that life, and the ultimate destiny as we are judged by those fruit.

He is not interested in sharing His role with us in the eradication of sin from His universe. There is only One God. There is only One Savior. It is simply our role to step aside and let God be God, and to humbly accept His role as solver of the sin issue. God gives grace to the humble. I dare suggest that it is the proud who desire to deserve life by their own effort added to the equation. We need to do the right things for the right reasons.

It is more than stepping aside. It is surrender. Complete uter submission to God's Spirit and His purposes for us. It is that surrender that is our work.
You mentioned that we are dead in Christ. Allow me to continue that thought from the words of Paul....
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.....
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Phil. 1:9 ¶ And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac: "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

You don't have the power to invalidate God's commandments.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Nothing comes from God without keeping His commandments.

Not salvation ... Must keep these commandments:
- "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus"
- "believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead"
- "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

Not eternal life:
"if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

It's just anti-Christ's doctrine:

"What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of ( If ye love me, keep my commandments. ) keeping commandments."

It's a pretty simple concept; if you don't love God then you don't want to keep His commandments.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings

Trying to trick folks into thinking they can ignore God's commandments isn't a new concept.

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

.

 

[williemac]

williemac: "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

You don't have the power to invalidate God's commandments.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Nothing comes from God without keeping His commandments.

Not salvation ... Must keep these commandments:
- "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus"
- "believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead"
- "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

Not eternal life:
"if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

It's just anti-Christ's doctrine:

"What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of ( If ye love me, keep my commandments. ) keeping commandments."

It's a pretty simple concept; if you don't love God then you don't want to keep His commandments.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings

Trying to trick folks into thinking they can ignore God's commandments isn't a new concept.

And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

.

Let's get this straight. Jesus gave commandments to the church. We are to follow them. Why? Because we love Him. No problem. That is a good reason.

One example of commandments to the church is to believe on Him and love one another. (1John3:23).

The command to have faith in Jesus for everlasting life is to be followed, if one wants everlasting life. (John 3:16)

The commandments given to Moses written on tablets of stone on the other hand, were given to reveal the nature of man to mankind. The conclusion: "There is none righteous, no not one". "If there was a law given that could have given life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law" (Gal.3:21).

So, the question remains...which commandments bring life to those who keep them? The commandments of law?

Rom.7:7.." What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would have not known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law said.."you shall not covet".." (the tenth commandment).
Rom.2:22, 23..." You who say "do not commit adultery", do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?. (23) You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?" Sin is transgression of law. Is adultery not a in? Is murder not a sin? Is theft not a sin? Are they not transgressions of three of the ten?
Are you going to recant, or continue to insist that the ten commandments are not part of the law? And if you insist that they are any kind of law at all, refer back to Gal.3:21, and keep on telling us that they can give life.

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: Let's get this straight.
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1. You didn't know what the Ten Commandments were, a few post ago; there's only ten.

2. You didn't know that Moses wasn't the mediator of the Ten Commandments; it was verbally spoken by God directly to the children of Israel.

3. LOL ... You used a Google response, instead of the Bible, to support your teaching.

Now you're going to "get this straight"???

Here's what "get this straight" really is.

"Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

We just believe and do what Jesus said.


----------
williemac: Jesus gave commandments to the church. We are to follow them. Why? Because we love Him. No problem. That is a good reason.
----------

You can't love God ... You made it impossible ... You've invalidated God's commandments.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

You've invalidated the basis of "love", "my commandments".

williemac: "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

The Ten Commandments are the minimal definition of "love" for God and fellow man.

The Ten Commandments aren't the high mark, they are the low mark; you have to at least do this, but it may not be good enough.

"If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

To keep the two Great commandments, you have to keep the Ten Commandments, but go beyond them.

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

"Thou shalt not kill."

The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable

... Thou shalt not kill; ... But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment ...

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Paul; "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

williemac: "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

If you invalidate "keeping commandments", then you've killed love; and you've validated hate, sin, and unrighteousness.

Paul; "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

.

 

[williemac]

I see you are still in the business of attacking and accusing and misrepresenting in order to avoid explaining the passages I asked you to address. You can twist my words and intentions over and over all you want. You are not proving anything about the truth, just about yourself. It is obvious that you suppose you can prove the validity of your position by making me look bad. That tactic has nothing to do with addressing objections. It is simply making it about me rather than about the bible.

So, the question remains...which commandments bring life to those who keep them? The commandments of law?

Rom.7:7.." What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would have not known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law said.."you shall not covet".." (the tenth commandment).
Rom.2:22, 23..." You who say "do not commit adultery", do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?. (23) You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?" Sin is transgression of law. Is adultery not a in? Is murder not a sin? Is theft not a sin? Are they not transgressions of three of the ten?
Are you going to recant, or continue to insist that the ten commandments are not part of the law? And if you insist that they are any kind of law at all, refer back to Gal.3:21, and keep on telling us that they can give life.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac: I see you are still in the business of attacking and accusing and misrepresenting in order to avoid explaining the passages I asked you to address.

("victim card" tactic? ... You're trying to invalidate Jesus but you didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were ... That's not my fault ... Don't try to blame me ... There's only ten)

I didn't avoid the question, I ignored it.

You've made it clear what your goal is.

williemac: "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

In essence, you want to validate sinning.

You don't present it that way, but when you are invalidating keeping commandments, then you're validating sinning.

no commandments = nothing saying you can't sin = get it on, baby

If you nullify God's commandments, you're saying; williemac:"What I am validating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of sinning."

If you nullify God's commandments, then nothing is classified as sin

If you invalidate God's commandments, then it's OK to kill, steal, ..., whatever.

" salvation "

williemac: "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation ... by way of keeping commandments."

There is no Salvation without obeying commandments.

commandment: "thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus"

commandment: "and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead"

commandment: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

( life )

williemac: "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of ... life by way of keeping commandments."

Only those that are worthy shall attain eternal life.

commandment: "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

commandment: "Not every one ... shall enter into the kingdom of heaven ... he that doeth the will of my Father ..."

Salvation and Eternal Life is only by compliance with commandments, the words of Jesus, The Word of God.

It would be painfully stupid to deny this because that's exactly what Jesus says.

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you"

The words of Jesus, The Word of God, are Salvation and Life; "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

"... whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

Salvation and Life is only by him, The Word Of God; belief in and compliance to the words of Jesus: "... no man cometh unto the Father, but by me", "the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day", "observe all things whatsoever I have commanded"

Here's a clue ... if you don't even know what the Ten Commandments are, you need to learn and not teach ... there's only ten.

.

 

[williemac]

Here's a clue ... if you don't even know what the Ten Commandments are, you need to learn and not teach ... there's only ten.

I am not teaching here. I am sharing what I have learned. However....1John:3:23...." And this is His commandment; that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment".. Only ten, you say?
A few posts ago, I replied hastily and made a connection with the command to love God and love one's neighbor, assuming that they were covered in the first command (which some say they are). You jumped all over it and as usual, used the tactic to invalidate me in order to invalidate what I am sharing. Then you mocked me for using Google to confirm that the majority side with my viewpoint about the ten being part of the law of Moses. Of course, what else could you do to remain in denial? Be that as it may... why are you ignoring what Paul said about the connection the ten have with the law?

Rom.7:7.." What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would have not known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law said.."you shall not covet".." (the tenth commandment).
Rom.2:22, 23..." You who say "do not commit adultery", do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?. (23) You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?" Sin is transgression of law. Is adultery not a in? Is murder not a sin? Is theft not a sin? Are they not transgressions of three of the ten?
Are you going to recant, or continue to insist that the ten commandments are not part of the law that Paul was speaking of in Romans? (and Galatians 4:24)

As well, Jesus kept the commandments on our behalf, as Rom. 5:15-19 confirms. We get the free gift of life because of what He did. He fulfilled His own requirement for life so that we could benefit from His obedience. I am not invalidating what He said. I am simply adding the additional information given by scripture. What part of ONE MAN bothers you (Rom.5:19)
Rom.8:32....." If God did not spare His own Son but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? I would hate to think that some here are too proud to accept charity. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud.

 

[gosgold]

Where does scripture/Bible reveal that one goes to heaven, let alone requirements for such?

 

[IBeMe]

williemac: I am not teaching here. I am sharing what I have learned. (made up)

You've made your goals clear; you just want to validate sinning.

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

I guess it's supposed to look clever to say it backwards.

If you invalidate "keeping commandments", then you are validating sinning; (no rules against it).

Same old 'turn Grace into lasciviousness'; Jude talks about.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Of course, this is anti-Christ's doctrine.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

You attack the words of Jesus;

Jesus:keep my commandments / williemac:I am invalidating ... keeping commandments

So, we have some person, on the internet, who didn't even know what the Ten Commandments were (there's only ten), trying to invalidate The Word of God, Jesus.

Whatever ... it's the internet ... obvious what were dealing with here ... still necessary to point it out.

You throw a few words in there to obfuscate; "... the doctrine of salvation and life by way of ..."

But a person can't enter God's Salvation plan without obeying commandments.

commandments: "thou shalt confess" ... "shalt believe" ... "baptizing them"

And, of course, Jesus says it's necessary to keep the commandments for "life".

"... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

This is just anti-Christ's doctrine from someone who didn't even know what the Ten Commandments are, there's only ten.

williemac: 1John:3:23...." And this is His commandment; that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment".. Only ten, you say?

Still confused?

Yep, there's only ten in the Ten Commandments, that's why they call it the "Ten Commandments".

Nope, 1John:3:23 isn't a part of the "Ten Commandments".

It's a commandment (remember, that's what you're trying to invalidate); but it's not a part of the "Ten Commandments", there's only ten.

williemac: A few posts ago, I replied hastily ...

In other words, you just made something up and got caught.

Now you want to make yourself look like a victim to garner sympathy to cover up the ridiculousness of someone, who didn't even know what the Ten Commandments are, trying to invalidate the words of Jesus.

williemac: I ... made a connection ...

You didn't make a connection, you just made something up and got caught.

williemac: You jumped all over it and as usual, used the tactic to invalidate me in order to invalidate what I am sharing.

You invalidated yourself

You got caught making something up, a complete fabrication.

You demonstrate that what you teach is just stuff you make up, without enough interest in the Bible to even look at the scriptures.

Don't try and blame me, it's not my fault if you don't know what the Ten Commandments are, or care enough to read them when the subject is under discussion.

The only thing you're sharing is that you don't even have a basic understanding of the Bible.

williemac: Then you mocked me for using Google ...

You use Google results to support what you teach, instead of the Bible.

williemac: why are you ignoring what Paul said ...

I'm not ignoring Paul, I'm ignoring your attempt to divert attention away from your stated goal.

How can anyone discuss Paul's statements, in relation to the Ten Commandments, with someone who doesn't even know what the Ten Commandments are?

As to what Paul says about your stated goal to invalidate keeping commandments; Paul says "shall not inherit the kingdom of God".

Stop ignoring what Paul says; "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

.

 

[williemac]

You've made your goals clear; you just want to validate sinning.

I hate to fight fire with fire, for the obvious potential hypocrisy. So I won't come right out and accuse you of lying. But I will say that you have no way or means to jump inside my head and assess just what my goal is. In my prior replies, I have repeatedly confirmed that we do not have permission to sin. I have repeated the promise of Jesus that He would rebuke and chasten those whom He loves. And I have given an example of that very thing from scripture.

The only thing clear here is that you are quite content to ignore some things that I say and highlight other things out of their context in order to invalidate me personally. This is somehow supposed to be a reasonable way to make your case against what I am sharing? I feel very sorry for you, my friend.
But if I wanted to say what you say in more appropriate words, this is what I would say:
Regardless of what you consider your goal to be, your replies indicate that your position validates self justification, in my humble opinion.

 

[nothead]

This opinion is just that. A man's opinion based on a man's logic. If it is indeed possible for a human to satisfy the righteous requirement of the law, then why did Paul reveal that it was by the obedience of One Man (Jesus, Rom.5), that many are made righteous? What would be the point of that?

But hear a rebuttal to this idea that it would have been cruel of God. It goes this way: The law was given as a tutor. The message that God was delivering and is delivering is that no one can qualify himself for life on the basis of his own righteousness. But instead of merely telling us, God proved it. How cruel is it to prove that which is true? Would it not have been more cruel not to? Thus the law, through man's failure to satisfy it, shows us that we require a savior. This is what the bible tells us. Opinions to the contrary are disobedient to the truth.

Paul stated that if there had been a law given that could have given life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law. (Gal.3:21)

But further to this, the bible lays out the qualification and the requirement for receiving life. They are humility and faith. God gives grace to the humble. We are told that salvation is "not of ourselves", lest any man should boast. Not by works of law. So therefore, even if it was possible to avail one's self of sufficient grace to satisfy the law, this could not overrule what we know about how salvation is attained. It is not attained through the obedience to law.

Therefore, keeping the law to its righteous requirement has no bearing on our salvation. Not before or after. God did not give us the Holy Spirit so that we can afterward be justified by works. He gave us the spirit of the new birth and the Holy Spirit as part and parcel of our justification by faith. They were not given as a means to life. They ARE the life that is given by grace through faith. They are given as a result of our justification, not as a means towards it, and especially not as a means to keeping it.

One of the temptations of Jesus was to prove who He was. The devil said.."If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here". He then quoted a verse to back up his temptation. But Jesus said "it is also written".

I personally see red flags when I encounter doctrines that incite a person to further justify himself by proving that he is a Christian by his works. It is also written; After having begun in the spirit, are we being made perfect by the flesh? That question from Paul, in its context, applies to this subject.

There are many good reasons to abstain from sin. But qualification for life is not one of them. It has been removed from the equation.

It was your conclusion I seem to have trouble with:

I personally see red flags when I encounter doctrines that incite a person to further justify himself by proving that he is a Christian by his works. It is also written; After having begun in the spirit, are we being made perfect by the flesh? That question from Paul, in its context, applies to this subject.

There are many good reasons to abstain from sin. But qualification for life is not one of them. It has been removed from the equation.

It seems, Mr Mac that a man cannot keep track of works as a balance sheet to heaven since he don't know WHICH works will suffice, and HOW many times he has to do them...

Like the tithe is it? Or a general smile to the masses which in fact is a lotta work FOR ME...

And yet you do not differentiate between faith-works which can actually be supernatural, and flesh-works which are much like the SWEAT-works of a normal peon.
This being in fact the CURSE upon man since Adam mezzed up. These including the man-made traditions and nit-picky rules we Americans all hate....

And I would say that SIN is still in the equation of life, whether you git on down I mean UP to them pearly gates. Like if you SIN enough, where then does the patience of Jesus stop? Murder? Murder after torture? John says to take these to the altar too, which means they are not AUTOMATICALLY propitiated...

And too, no fear or trembling...you know that verse which stumbles the faith-onlyists...work out your salvation with fear and trembling AS MUCH IN MY ABSENCE as MY PRESENCE. Wow, Paul would say this to the faithful??

 

[IBeMe]

----------
williemac: I hate to fight fire with fire, for the obvious potential hypocrisy. So I won't come right out and accuse you of lying. But I will say that you have no way or means to jump inside my head and assess just what my goal is.
----------

What's that all about? You've stated your goal.

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

You validate sinning by "invalidating ... keeping commandments"; cute little trick you used by wording it backwards.

You are attacking the words of Jesus.

Jesus:keep my commandments / williemac:I am invalidating ... keeping commandments

You're teaching anti-Christ's doctrine.

Jesus says; "... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

You're trying to invalidate Jesus's doctrine.

Jesus; Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...

williemac: I am invalidating ... keeping commandments

You're trying to nullify Jesus Christ.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The words of Jesus are commandments, but you keep trying to invalidate the words of Jesus.

williemac: I am invalidating (the word that I have spoken) keeping commandments


----------
williemac: In my prior replies, I have repeatedly confirmed that we do not have permission to sin.
----------

Are you truth challenged?

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

Invalidating God's commandments, and the words of Jesus (which are commandments); is granting permission to sin.

Adam and Eve only had one commandment; "God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Satan tricked Eve into thinking he had power to invalidate God's commandment; "Ye shall not surely die".

It was a lie; they did die.


----------
williemac: I have repeated the promise of Jesus that He would rebuke and chasten those whom He loves.
----------

Trying to trick us into thinking you can invalidate "keeping commandments" with that scripture?

Why should anyone think someone who doesn't even know what the Ten Commandments are (there's only ten); would have a clue what that scripture means?

That scripture comes with a restriction; "As many as I love"

What must we do to qualify for "As many as I love" and receive chastising from the Lord?

You guessed it; "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love"

Your message disqualifies folks from God's love and chastising; "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."


----------
williemac: The only thing clear here is that you are quite content to ignore some things that I say ...
----------

Christians are forbidden from receiving what you have to say.

What you teach is anti-Christ's doctrine.

Jesus; "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: ..."

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

Obviously, you teach anti-Christ's doctrine.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


----------
williemac: Regardless of what you consider your goal to be, your replies indicate that your position validates self justification, in my humble opinion.
----------

You proclaim self justification through ignoring Jesus.

Jesus:"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." / williemac;"... I am invalidating ... keeping commandments."

.

Salvation is for the obedient, not those who want to pay around with their lusts.

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

.

 

[williemac]

It was your conclusion I seem to have trouble with:


It seems, Mr Mac that a man cannot keep track of works as a balance sheet to heaven since he don't know WHICH works will suffice, and HOW many times he has to do them...

Like the tithe is it? Or a general smile to the masses which in fact is a lotta work FOR ME...

And yet you do not differentiate between faith-works which can actually be supernatural, and flesh-works which are much like the SWEAT-works of a normal peon.
This being in fact the CURSE upon man since Adam messed up. These including the man-made traditions and nit-picky rules we Americans all hate....

And I would say that SIN is still in the equation of life, whether you git on down I mean UP to them pearly gates. Like if you SIN enough, where then does the patience of Jesus stop? Murder? Murder after torture? John says to take these to the altar too, which means they are not AUTOMATICALLY propitiated...

And too, no fear or trembling...you know that verse which stumbles the faith-onlyists...work out your salvation with fear and trembling AS MUCH IN MY ABSENCE as MY PRESENCE. Wow, Paul would say this to the faithful??

Nice reply, in comparison with some that I get.

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."
Obviously, you teach anti-Christ's doctrine.
Salvation is for the obedient, not those who want to pay around with their lusts.

There are three areas of lust; the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1John 2:16). If a person is abstaining from one of these in order to fulfill another one, he is still in violation. Jesus said: If anyone seeks to save his own life, he will lose it. This is the pride of life. This is precisely why Paul clarified that we are justified by faith...not of works...not of ourselves, lest anyone should boast....the pride of life. God gives grace to the humble.

This is why Paul clarified that we are save by our faith and confession (Rom.10:9,10). If I am teaching anti Christ's doctrine, then so was Paul. I am merely quoting passages that you are continuing to ignore. You are still in the business of quoting some of my statements and leaving out the ones where I agree that we should obey the commandments.

I am not saying we should disobey Jesus or the commandments. I am merely giving a different reason than you, for keeping them. Why do you continue to leave out that detail?

Jesus also said..."judge not lest you be judged". When you can show us that you are willing to obey everything Jesus said, then maybe I will take you seriously. We are products of what we believe. You seem to believe in a condemning and judgmental God. And consequently, you use trickery of fragmented quotes to judge me and condemn me.
This is forbidden on this website. Even if you were accurate in your assessment of me as a person, it is still against the rules of conduct to accuse me, or attack my character. I have no idea why you are still getting away with it. This is supposed to be a discussion of the bible. Try keeping it to just that and I will think about replying to all of your comments. O wait, I already have.

 

[brakelite]

In the sermon on the mount Christ exhorts His listeners to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. So what is the righteousness of God, and why is it so important that we are to seek it on an equal level of priority as His kingdom?

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Romans 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Righteousness is holiness; likeness to God, and God is love. (1 John 4:16) It is conformity to the law of God, for “all Thy commandments are righteousness” Psalm 119:72, and “love is the fulfilling of the law”. Rom 13:10
Righteousness is love, and love is the true light and life of God. The righteousness of God is embodied in Christ, and we receive righteousness by receiving Him.


Jesus speaking….“But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness”.…(Matt 6:33)

Yes, it is only faith, but to what purpose? Just so we can get to heaven and that’s it? We have this wonderful gift of faith and exercise it for just our benefit, for our own selfish eternal ends? Jesus said we must seek the kingdom of God yes, and we ought always be grateful for the salvation/redemption through the shed blood that makes that possible, but Jesus said that we , in equal importance to the kingdom, seek also God’s righteousness.

I think we ought to know what precisely God’s righteousness is.

1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Rom.5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

It is evident that the righteousness which comes to us as a free gift by faith is the righteousness of God….so again, what is the righteousness of God?

Psalm 119:172 ¶ My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

The commandments of God are righteousness…not just in the abstract, but they are the righteousness of God.

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

They who know righteousness are those in whose heart is God’s law, thus the law of God is the righteousness of God. We can prove this another way….
All unrighteousness is sin….1 John 5:17 and whosoever commits sin transgresseth also the law, for sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4

Sin is the transgression of the law, and it is also unrighteousness, therefore sin and unrighteousness are the same. So if unrighteousness is transgression against the law, surely righteousness must be obedience to the law.
Now we need to know “what law”?

It is the law which says “thou shalt not covet”. because Paul tells us that is was that law which convinced him of sin. (Romans 7:7.)

The law of ten commandments then, is the measure of the righteousness of God. Since it is the law of God, and is righteousness, it must be the righteousness of God. In fact, there really is no other righteousness. It is a written manifestation of the character and nature of God.
God is also love, and Paul tells us that love is the fulfilling of the law. Thus if we are to seek God’s righteousness, then we are to seek obedience, through faith, to God’s law, by love. Thus rather than doing away with the law, (how can it be possible to do away with God’s righteousness?) through love we establish the law. All by faith. Not our righteousness, but God’s.
So Solomon was perfectly correct and agreed with the text of Matt 6:33 when he said:


“Let us hear the conclusion to the whole matter: fear God and keep His commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgement, with every secret thing, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.” Eccl 12:13, 14.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac: I am not saying we should disobey Jesus or the commandments.

You say you ain't, but you is.

You defy Christ's doctrine; "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Jesus; "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

But you try to invalidate the instructions of "the way, the truth, and the life", the only way to come "unto the Father" (Salvation).

Invalidating keeping commandments, by definition, is validating breaking commandments

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

Christ's doctrine is the doctrine of salvation and life; "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Christ's doctrine is; "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ..."

invalidate: 'nullify; to weaken or destroy the cogency of'

You're trying to 'nullify, weaken or destroy' Christ's doctrine; "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of; "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

williemac: I am merely giving a different reason than you, for keeping them.

By definition, "invalidating ... keeping commandments is validating breaking commandments; validating sinning.

You validating reasons to sin.

williemac: There are three areas of lust; the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life (1John 2:16). If a person is abstaining from one of these in order to fulfill another one, he is still in violation.

Are you trying to portray following the Holy Spirit as an act of "pride"; thus evil?

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

williemac: This is why Paul clarified that we are save by our faith and confession (Rom.10:9,10). If I am teaching anti Christ's doctrine, then so was Paul.

No, you're teaching anti-Christ's doctrine and anti-Paul's doctrine.

Paul says that salvation is only for them that obey him.

Paul; "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Instead of teaching "obey him", like Paul; you invalidate "obey him", "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of ... keeping commandments."

You're trying to invalidate Paul's doctrine, "obey him".

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

williemac: When you can show us that you are willing to obey everything Jesus said, then maybe I will take you seriously.

Personal attacks ignored.

williemac: You seem to believe in a condemning and judgmental God.

False personal attack ignored.

williemac: And consequently, you use trickery of fragmented quotes to judge me and condemn me.

False personal attack ignored.

williemac: This is forbidden on this website. Even if you were accurate in your assessment of me as a person, it is still against the rules of conduct to accuse me, or attack my character.

LOL ... Launch a personal attack, then throw out the "victim card".

You can't blame me for what you say.

Comparing what a person says, to scripture, isn't a personal attack.

It's not my fault if what you say is contrary to the scriptures.

williemac: I have no idea why you are still getting away with it. This is supposed to be a discussion of the bible.

LOL ... "victim card" ??? hoping someone will bail you out.

You really don't like being held to your words?

Why are you trying to blame me for what you teach, it's not fault.

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

You're trying to invalidate keeping Jesus's instructions.

I'm just pointing out that what you teach is anti-Christ's doctrine.

You can't blame me for what the Bible says, and it's not my fault if what you say doesn't agree with the Bible.

You can't blame me if you don't know what the Ten Commandments are; there's only ten.

.

 

[williemac]

LOL ... "victim card" ??? hoping someone will bail you out.

You really don't like being held to your words?

Why are you trying to blame me for what you teach, it's not fault.

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

You're trying to invalidate keeping Jesus's instructions.

I'm just pointing out that what you teach is anti-Christ's doctrine.

You can't blame me for what the Bible says, and it's not my fault if what you say doesn't agree with the Bible.

You can't blame me if you don't know what the Ten Commandments are; there's only ten.

.

You misunderstand me, as usual. I was not playing the victim card. I am not the victim, here. But thanks for quoting exactly what I have been saying. However, again, you left out the biblical proof that I have used for what I said. And in your case, you actually are blaming me for what the bible says.

The bible reveals that Jesus was dealing with those under the law, and was telling them to keep the law for life, as the law commanded. But further information reveals that this timeline ended at His death, and then the way to life became about faith, not about keeping commandments. BTW, I have shown in scripture how the ten commandments were part of the law of Moses. You simply will not acknowledge the passages in question. Be that as it may, in Rom.5, we see that Jesus Himself kept them for us on our behalf. So what He said was true, but he fulfilled it Himself because no man before then or since then has ever kept them to the extent that they would have a cause for boasting before God.

And FYI, the commands mentioned in John 15 were made to His disciples. He was replying to Judas, to be exact. And the question had nothing to do with qualification for life. The context is about our conduct as believers, nothing more. It is not about earning eternal life. But you errantly take it to that place, both there and in other contexts.

You are showing yourself to be a novice in the skills of bible interpretation and one who has no problem violating rules of conduct to win an argument. Using questionable tactics to make me personally look evil is no way to prove what the bible says. That is not a victim card. That is just the way it is.

 

[IBeMe]

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williemac: And in your case, you actually are blaming me for what the bible says.
----------

Not blaming anybody, just comparing what you say to the scriptures.

Don't blame me if what you say doesn't align with the scriptures.

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments." ... Jesus; "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

It's clear, that ain't love you're teaching; you'd be saying "keep my commandments".

It's quite simple, you're just trying to validate sinning, "invalidating keeping commandments"; playing around with all them lusts of the flesh that relentlessly demand attention with an ever growing insatiable appetite.

Of course, God's commandments stand in the way.

I had a friend; very wild man, but very funny.

He grew up running the streets from a toddler, up.

He said, he rejoiced when he read this part of the scriptures; "Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes:"

Then, he read the rest of it; "but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment. Therefore remove sorrow from thy heart, and put away evil from thy flesh: for childhood and youth are vanity."

Obviously, "I am invalidating ... keeping commandments", is an attempt to validate sinning.

Breaking God's word is the definition of "sin"; "All unrighteousness is sin"

Old/New Testament: God doesn't ever change.

Exo 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

Rev 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

God does offer a new Salvation plan (prepared for you from the foundation of the world) : carnal man, the Mosaic Law; spiritual man, justification by faith in Jesus.

Jesus had to die in our place so that we could become spiritual (born again) beings and "worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

The Ten Commandments, law written by the hand of God, were placed inside the tabernacle; the Mosaic Law was placed on the side of the ark; "... when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book ... and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant".

You can't make God's commandments go away; "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts".

Paul; "being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ".

We are subject to all that Jesus taught; "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

We're warned that teachers would promise us liberty from God's commandments.

"For whe false n they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

williemac; "What I am invalidating is the doctrine of salvation and life by way of keeping commandments."

Breaking God's commandments, "invalidating keeping commandments", isn't "promise them liberty"; it's death; "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"

You can't make the words of Jesus go away:

Mat 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."
Mar 13:31 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."
Luk 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

Why not just do what Jesus says?

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

.

 

[williemac]

It's quite simple, you're just trying to validate sinning, "invalidating keeping commandments"; playing around with all them lusts of the flesh that relentlessly demand attention with an ever growing insatiable appetite.

There's nothing in any of my replies that can verify this brutal attack on my character. Your willingness to make such personal accusations says more about you than it does about me. You are going much further than merely pointing out what the bible says. But whatever...

I have made my case from scripture, as have you. The difference is that my case explains why there is contradiction. Yours simply lumps two contradictory qualifications for life together as though they do not contradict themselves.

Paul said that we ought not to use grace as a license to sin (in so many words). I agree with Paul. But this also indicates that the message itself is not an automatic license to sin. The message can be abused...or not. However, you have decided that it is an automatic license.. This is why you accuse me of using it that way. You cannot fathom any other reason that I would believe it. Therefore you assume I am deliberately doing these thing you (falsely) accuse me of (in saying I am validating sin through my own lusts...as if you know anything about me). I totally get that reasoning. But It has no substance to it.

You must also then accuse Paul of the same. He is the one who confirmed that the law of Moses includes the ten commandments. He is the one who said that life is a free gift, made available through the righteousness of one man. He is the one who said salvation comes by our faith and confession. And while we talk of Jesus' words not passing away, He is the One who said everlasting life is given by faith in Him, and He is the One who promised that once a person has life, He will not come under judgment (John 5:24).

So please explain the contradiction. Do we gain life by our own obedience to the commandments or by faith in His? Do we gain life by our own obedience to the commandments or by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus? Did Paul say both faith and works bring salvation, as you insist, or did He say it is by faith and not by works? Of course it is the latter. How do you justify your denial? And please don't give me this noun vs. verb garbage. This isn't dodge ball. The bible uses the words. They are not invalid. I am merely quoting them.