What was wrong with Adam and Eve knowing good and evil?
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Nice reasonong, but a total reinterpretation of what Scripture says. It says they ate something, not returned something. Now I am not as smart as you call yourself to be but I am pretty sure God knows the difference between eat and return.
BTW as you haven't answered this in four different threads I have asked you, let me ask again- Do you commit any sins in thought word or deed at any time?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Eve most certainly thought a bad thought three times prior to the fall.
that knowing is what causes them to independently decide what isa right or wrong themselves. It is not an experience but a deciding.
Other than these your post is excellent.
Lot of assumptions which direct experience reveals are incorrect as in beliefs and not direct experience.
That there is a decider or a decision ever happens is assumed, and not actually experienced. Direct experience is of one thought ‘at a time’. Never is there an experience of two simultaneous thoughts, and a decider deciding between the thoughts.
The ego was once said to be like a clown which comes out and takes a bow after the performance… which the clown wasn’t actually in.
It’s the same with the hindsight thought “I decided” or “I chose”. That implied self is not a self, but is a hindsight thought.
That God wants. This is a colossal presumptive misnomer right at the root which skews everything said afterwards.
That God knows. That God knows (there is man) is a personal belief about God. There is no actual experience of this.
That God has a standard. This is also a personal belief. There is no actual experience of this.
On his own independently is entirely assumed & based on the belief in separation.
That there is good & evil (“what was good and evil”). There is no actual experience of evil, only the assumption.
Entirely assumed and incorrect, and based on personal beliefs and assumptions.
No. Would believe there is good & evil.
No. Would believe there is, good & evil.
Believed.
That’s again assumed.
Fear is an emotion. Not an object. Not a possession.
No reconnection occurs, as no separation happened.
Sharing personal beliefs, assumptions and purporting it to be indicative of the Bible is highly misleading.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
I doubt they ate something. Even today in America we still talk like that. I might say such a thing that you're asking me to do is hard to swallow. And it often does not mean eating something.
It doesn’t. Thank you for thinking of me though.
To eat means to put within you. Walking by an apple tree vs eating an apple. Witnessing ignorance, yet not feeling discord.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The humans were exposed to a source of evil, but the exercise of their free will, within the parameters set by the Creator, would have protected them even from this "supernatural" source. Do you disagree with that? If they had simply obeyed and refused the devil's offer, as they could have.....then none of what followed would have taken place.
Do we appreciate what they all lost by succumbing to the devil's temptation, which had nothing supernatural about it? He has no power over our will, so all he can do is provide the circumstances and the verbal and mental encouragement to act on it.
The Genesis account is really a test case in action, one in which God's free willed children (both in heaven and on earth) were tested as to their qualities of love, loyalty and obedience. The angels in particular had no excuse to doubt the Sovereign power and will of their Creator because they had been with him for untold eons and had witnessed the power behind material creation.
What did the one who made himself the "devil" lose by his own deviation from the path of obedience set by his God? He lost his sonship with his Creator by competing with him for what he craved......worship. He wanted what the humans were going to give Jehovah. He could not get it from his fellow angels because they were his equals, so all he could become to them was their leader. He still managed to take a third of them with him into rebellion. So this test was as much about them as it was for God's human children, who were hijacked for the devil's own selfish ambitions......maybe more so.
What did the humans lose that day? They lost their sonship as well....and invited on themselves a life that they could never have imagined.
They had an endless supply of delicious fruits for which they did not have to toil, and beautiful surrounding where everything was pleasant to look at and to experience.....evicted from their garden home, they now had to work hard to glean enough grain from "cursed ground" to make themselves "bread". "Thorns and thistles" were now the bane of their existence as they relied on the "long garments of skin" (provided by God) to give them a measure of protection out there, as well as preserving their modesty.
Children would be brought forth in pain and sin would blight them all their lives until they eventually died and returned to the dust out of which they were made.
There is no afterlife mentioned to Adam at all, so death meant an end of his existence. (Gen 3:19) Death was the opposite of life.
The 7th day was set aside for all contingencies to be worked out if the abuse of free will ever took place....God was ready with a plan of action, no matter what they chose to do, he would respond to it, and keep his first purpose at the forefront....so that when the 7th day ends, God will then be able to declare it also...."very good". It is the only day without a successful conclusion......did God fail? (Isa 55:11)
Of course....all contingencies were covered, no matter what his free willed children chose to do, he would use it to his own advantage.
Do we see the wisdom of allowing evil to enter their lives? He did not cause it, but when they chose it, he did not prevent the consequences......it would be an object lesson none of us would ever forget.
What have the devil and his cronies learned about obedience to their Creator? Will it end well for them? The answer is of course, NO! They were not ignorant when they chose their course in full knowledge of what they were doing. There is no repentance or forgiveness possible for them....nor Adam, who also acted in full knowledge, being created before Eve, he was alone with his Creator for some time when God eventually provided a mate for him....long enough for him to observe and name all the animals that would share life with them on the earth.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Why was "the wily serpent" there in the garden in the first place? God stationed him there, no doubt because he was a cherub.....an angel of high rank, placed in a position of great responsibility as an overseer.
Ezekiel speaks of satan as being manifest in the traits of the King of Tyre of whom he said....
"And the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: 12 “Son of man, sing a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and tell him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“You were the model of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eʹden, the garden of God
You were adorned with every precious stone. . . .
They were prepared on the day you were created.
14 I assigned you as the anointed covering cherub.
You were on the holy mountain of God, and you walked about among fiery stones.
15 You were faultless in your ways from the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 Because of your abundant trade,
You became filled with violence, and you began to sin.
So I will cast you out as profane from the mountain of God and destroy you,
O covering cherub, away from the stones of fire.
17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty.
You corrupted your wisdom because of your own glorious splendor.
I will throw you down to the earth.
I will make you a spectacle before kings." (Ezxekiel 28:12-17)
God could never have said this about a human....this one was "created" as "faultless" "until unrighteousness was found" in him.
The King of Tyre was not a cherub.
Did God know that this cherub was planning a coup?
God does not say whether he used his advance knowledge to foresee what he would do, but we do see a similar thing demonstrated with testing the faithful man Job.
Satan in the Hebrew Scriptures is an "adversary"...so what is the meaning of this word?
"An enemy that contends with or resists; an antagonist or opponent. The Hebrew word for “adversary” (tsar) comes from a root meaning “harass; show hostility to.” (Num 25:18; Psalm 129:1)
The Greek word an·tiʹdi·kos primarily refers to an “adversary at law” in a legal case (Luke 12:58; 18:3), but it can refer to others who are adversaries, or enemies, as in 1 Peter 5:8.
In Job's case, God detected that satan was already 'considering his servant Job', perhaps planning a way to undo his very strong faith? God allowed the test, but Job had no idea that he was the subject of a contest between God and his adversary, that would eventually be carried out on a whole generation of people at the time of the judgment. The fact that Job kept his integrity even when he thought all his trials were coming from God....demonstrated the depth of his faith and trust in his God. "There was no one like him in all the earth", so God permitted the devil to take him to his limits but no further. (1 Cor 10:12-13) God will do the same for us.
Of course God was disappointed in the outcome as he would have preferred that his children obey him out of love and loyalty....but he had contingencies already in place that would sort the 'sheep from the goats' and leave him with a faithful tested minority. Reading through scripture, it was always the faithful "few" who did not let him down, when the majority did.
What is the lesson from that, do you think?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Sorry mate...you don't speak a language I understand....."evil" is not a belief...it is a practice followed by giving in to a thought in the mind.
We are governed by what we think, but judged by what we do......do you get that?
I appreciate your perspective, Aunty Jane, but it's just not mine. I believe the Genesis account is mythical - a spiritual lesson - not literal in the slightest. The Fall was inevitable because this is what it means to be human. If they hadn't fallen right off the bat, they would have fallen the next week, next day or next year. There was no possibility from the moment of creation that humans with free will would not fall. It was not only inevitable but the only way they could ever enter into genuine communion with God. To remain ignorant of Good and Evil is to be less than human.
Thoughts of that nature are indicative of intense emotional suppression, most likely with underlying trauma. Not evil. There is ignorance & judgment apparently, but good is not dual. I’m not suggesting it’s understandable, I’m suggesting it’s reality. Traditionally, this has been referred to as the good news.
What do you mean by we? Do you have a mouse in your pocket or something?
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
~
In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as before.
It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel indecent.
FAQ: Why wasn't the woman's moral perception altered when she tasted the
forbidden fruit?
REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come
into the world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and
righteousness would later be offered to the world via a lone male's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)
Another thing: it's commonly believed the so-called fallen nature is inherited
from one's biological father. Oh? Then whence did Eve get it? She was
constructed with material taken from Adam's body but that was all over and
done with before he tasted the forbidden fruit; so it was too late for him to
transmit the fallen nature to her via reproduction.
FAQ: If Eve's altered state wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to inheriting it
from Adam; then from where? Did God do it?
REPLY: Mr. Serpent is the logical source, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) He has
the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16,
Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.
The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.
FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people . . . in the womb or out
of the womb?
REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on
adults, but I'm guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps
51:5 & 58:3)
* I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
fathers propagate the fallen nature when it's been the Serpent all along.
Jesus' statement: "You are of your father the Devil" wasn't idle slander;
rather, it's 100% fact. (John 8:44)
_
In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had
something to do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I
seriously doubt it because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she
did, nothing happened. She remained just as shameless in the buff as before.
It wasn't till Adam tasted the fruit that she began to feel indecent.
FAQ: Why wasn't the woman's moral perception altered when she tasted the
forbidden fruit?
REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come
into the world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and
righteousness would later be offered to the world via a lone male's actions.
(Rom 5:12-21)
Another thing: it's commonly believed the so-called fallen nature is inherited
from one's biological father. Oh? Then whence did Eve get it? She was
constructed with material taken from Adam's body but that was all over and
done with before he tasted the forbidden fruit; so it was too late for him to
transmit the fallen nature to her via reproduction.
FAQ: If Eve's altered state wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to inheriting it
from Adam; then from where? Did God do it?
REPLY: Mr. Serpent is the logical source, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) He has
the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human
body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16,
Mark 5:1-5, and Eph 2:2.
The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment
that Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it
takes effect. Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both
immediately set to work cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to
cover up their pelvic areas.
FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people . . . in the womb or out
of the womb?
REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on
adults, but I'm guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps
51:5 & 58:3)
* I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame
away from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe
fathers propagate the fallen nature when it's been the Serpent all along.
Jesus' statement: "You are of your father the Devil" wasn't idle slander;
rather, it's 100% fact. (John 8:44)
_
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If it was not literal, then God's first purpose for humans was not literal either. Why did he bother putting material creatures on a material earth in a material Universe if it was only for them to experience this difficult life, grow old and die?
It makes a mockery of Christ's sacrifice.....he died for the actions of two mythological humans, tempted by a mythological snake....was Jesus mythological too?
What gives you that idea? This kind of 'humanity' is all we know, because we never got a chance to experience what life was meant to be like....we all know in our heart of hearts that this life makes no sense at all as the product of a loving heavenly father....our Creator.
Its more the product of a sadistic fiend. That is not the God I know.
I simply do not understand this way of thinking.....Why would a fall be inevitable if there was no sin nature to begin with?
God did not create them imperfect...in fact, with their creation he declared everything to be "very good"....imagine what "very good" means in God's vocabulary....?
By their disobedience, they changed the course of human history.
If satan had not tempted the woman to bait the man, then for what reason would they have taken the one thing in the garden that would end their life?
There was no excuse for what they did, because none of them wanted for anything that wasn't within the parameters set for them. All could have thrived in the environment that God had given them....his loving generosity was plainly evident.
But, the devil was not content with his lot...he wanted what did not rightfully belong to him....the worship of the humans. In order to gain it, he had to separate them from God.....he could not force them, but he could deceive them into breaking the only law that carried a heavy penalty, and hope that they fell for it.
The woman was tempted to eat the fruit, but it was not hers to partake of....it belonged to a God who had given them every kind of fruit tree to enjoy the fruitage, but she was tempted to think that in the abundance of what she had already been given, she was somehow entitled to more.
The man had an opportunity to maintain his close relationship with God but couldn't bear to be separated from his wife, so he joined her in full knowledge of what it meant....death for both of them. There is not a single word of remorse from either of them...they knew what they had done. From the moment they ate, they died spiritually from God's view, with sin entering into their physical being, they began the slow descent into aging, sickness and death physically. There was no "tree of life" to come to their rescue....it was now off limits.
Jesus was the one to come to the rescue of their children, who were born in sin through no fault on their part....which demonstrated God's love for mankind, as well as his own. (John 3:16)
I would like to comment because you have written this so well. Well enough that I think I learned something from reading it. May I suggest there was nothing eaten? We speak the same even today in our English when we say such a concept is hard to swallow. All I can come up with for the fruit was they decided to walk by their flesh and so gave the spirit back to God. This would put the body in a position to die and to deliberately do such a thing would be a sin. It would also separate them from God and would require the Christ to get the spirit back for us.
Moral perception is a misnomer. Morality is thought, conceptual.
Perception is perception, non-conceptual (seeing, hearing, touching, tasting).
The illusion of ignorance.
Simply put, the belief in good & bad is a belief.
Judgment ensues.
It is only the judgement which blinds one from seeing this is heaven already.
It’s a simple story with s simple point.
The serpent is the sneakiness of believing thoughts, about there being good and bad.
Death is not bad.
Notice how judgment, and believing judgement (“bad”), blinds.
This is The Womb.
You are not within an it.
Heaven is (already) within you.
Material is assumed. That is suffering (‘difficult’).
Not at all. It’s the very point while you insist it’s “difficult”, based on “material”, thus with love, overlooking the entire point.
Without beliefs, this makes perfect sense.
This is perfect sense.
Perfection.
Judgement blinds (“sadistic fiend”).
Understanding is the thought, understanding.
Thinking is the thought, thinking.
Try to post a picture of ‘understanding’ and or ‘thinking’. Why can’t you?
Because these are thoughts, presumed to be more.
‘Dead’ in that sense means blinded by judgement, via “knowing” Good “and bad”.
Good is nondual.
This is non-conceptual unconditional eternal Aliveness.
That aliveness is a product or property of a physical body is a belief. That was proven scientifically over a hundred years ago.
Which is to say, what the Bible said, without misinterpretation, was proven scientifically, over a hundred years ago.
The Nobel prize was recently awarded for proving separation is a belief. There’s no shortage of The Message.
All thats in question ostensibly is, is it allowed to be heard.
It’s actually very, very , very simple. It’s just how simple it is which seems to be complex.
Don’t. Judge.
Which means… don’t believe ‘you know’, there is good and evil. (The knowledge of good & evil).
It’s so simple, straightforward, clear & direct.
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