What Wrath Are Christ's Servants Not Appointed To?

[veteran]

We need to beware of the slogan doctors. Slogan doctors are the same thing as 'spin doctors', the difference being usage of Scripture to come up with one-liner type slogans instead of advertising lingo.

If your pastor is claiming to preach from 1 Thess.5, and then spouts rapture traditions instead of staying with the chapter line upon line, then you know you're hearing a 'spin' instead; especially if he skips Paul's main prophet pointers to immediately jump to the 'we are not appointed to wrath' idea.


Apostle Paul had just finished revealing events of Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter. He's continuing that subject here in the 1 Thess.5 chapter, the difference is he's giving some specific timing event markers in chapter 5, pulling from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord".


1Thes 5:1-10
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Paul gives a timing reference there when our Lord Jesus returns. He uses the idea of Christ's coming "as a thief in the night" on... "the day of the Lord." That's two specific ideas Paul referred to.

Much is written in the OT prophets about that "day of the Lord" events. In Isaiah 29:5 & 30:13 God uses the idea of utter destruction to end this present world coming at an instant, at a wink of an eye (Hebrew petha). That's how Apostle Paul got the "twinkling of an eye" change of 1 Cor.15 with Christ's coming on the "last trump"; it's from the OT prophets about the "day of the Lord" events that are set to end this world. (look up that phrase "day of the Lord" in your Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, and study all those OT Scriptures where that idea is written.)

Peter also used the "as a thief" metaphor in 2 Pet.3:10, as did our Lord Jesus in Rev.3:3 and 16:15. It's the same kind of idea first given in the OT prophets about the events of God's destruction on earth that will end this world; it's to occur at an instant, suddenly per Isa.29 & 30. In Isaiah 30, the idea is used about a breach of a false wall. In the Isa.29 example, it's used with the idea of terrible ones being like chaff that passes away at an instant. Chaff is what's separated from wheat by winnowing, and when it hits a fire, it's consumed instantly, swoosh! Gone!

That's why "the day of the Lord" events are associated with the "as a thief in the night" idea; it's about the time of God's sudden destruction of this present world, and it's to be an instant surprise upon the wicked and the deceived.

Paul said he had no need to tell the brethren at Thessalonica about those coming events, because they well understood about "the times and the seasons" of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord" per the OT prophets. Paul was actually patting them on the back by saying that, showing they had studied all that and understood; thus Paul had no need to go into that with them.

Any believer on Christ that hasn't done that yet as they had, how will you understand what's to follow in this 1 Thess.5 chapter? How will you understand the import of Paul's Message here about it? Knowing about it already reveals just what 'wrath' idea Paul was speaking about later in this chapter. It's specifically about God's wrath on "the day of the Lord", the day of Christ's coming.


Paul continues...

1 Thess.5:3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Wait a minute. Who is "they" and "them" Paul speaks of there? If you'd covered the OT prophets already about the first two markers he just gave ('as a thief' and 'day of the Lord'), then you would know who he was speaking about. It's about the wicked and the deceived that will be suddenly surprised on that day, God's destruction coming at an instant, suddenly (Isaiah 29 & 30). And mind you, can't just read a couple verses out of those Isaiah 29 & 30 chapters, since the idea of that sudden destruction on the day of the Lord begins at the start of the Book of Isaiah and flows throughout it.

When the wicked and deceived say that, "Peace and safety", that reveals what kind of time it will be on this earth when God brings that sudden destruction upon them, at the twinkling of an eye, at an instant, suddenly. They will be deceived with a fake world peace the Antichrist is going to bring. That's why they will be declaring that "Peace and safety" idea. But it's not going to be real; God is going to end it, suddenly, at an instant.

Then Apostle Paul gives another event marker for that day, the "as travail upon a woman with child" metaphor from the OT prophets. That metaphor was used for the wicked suffering God's punishment; and as sorrows upon the daughters of Zion (God's people). See Isaiah 26 and Isaiah 54 especially. Our Lord Jesus used it as a metaphor for a spiritual harlot married to another per Luke 23:29, quoting from Isaiah 54. Paul also used the idea in 2 Cor.11 about us being espoused to One Husband (Jesus Christ), warning us to not be deceived by the serpent as Eve was.

In Luke 21:22-23, our Lord Jesus used that OT travail with child metaphor to show His wrath upon the wicked on that day of sudden destruction. Most think He was simply speaking of women pregnant with literal children. From study about that with child metaphor in the OT prophets, a much different type of picture is painted.

So now Paul has given 3 major OT metaphors from the prophets. And we're supposed to have recognized them. THIS is what it's about with having that spare vessel of the Oil that the five wise virgins had per Matt.25. Most of the time our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave direct pointers back to the OT Scriptures when covering end time events, and we're supposed to have already learned those ideas. None of that is difficult to understand. It's simply a matter of having read the OT prophets (line upon line), and one easily recognizes when those ideas are being referenced in the NT Books. That is what our pastors are supposed to be teaching us when covering the NT Books, not pushing some pop seminary doctrine of men that most often has very little or nothing to do with the real Message. What I've covered thus far by Paul's references to the prophets should point this out already.



1 Thess.5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

What Paul says there goes with his previous statement to them, that he had no need to do what? That he had no need to tell them of "the times and the seasons", simply because they already understood them. And because of that, they were not... in "darkness", meaning not in confusion about the end time events. That's why he said also there why that 'day' (sudden destruction with Christ's coming) would not be a surprise to those in Christ. Jesus' coming would not be "as a thief" to them, because why again? Because they well knew about "the times and the seasons", those markers Paul haven mentioned to them coming from the OT prophets.


1 Thess.5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

There's yet another... OT metaphor Paul gives, the idea of spiritual day vs. spiritual darkness or night to represent being in confusion and deception, a trait of Christ's enemies who deceive.


1 Thess.5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Paul is talking about spiritual sleep in deception, not literal sleep. The 'watch' idea is another marker of time warning from the OT prophets. It was especially used as a warning for the 'watchman' waiting for the coming spoiler, like in Isaiah 21.

And still Paul gives another marker, with that 'drunken in the night' metaphor meant as being under deception. To be spiritually drunken for those spiritually asleep, it means to be spiritiually drunken with men's doctrines instead of staying in God's Word. That is exactly the case with the religious frenzies evoked in some Churches today, seeking to drive one's emotions to the sky, and then the slogan doctors come in to throw out little one-liner treasure phrases taken out of Biblical context. When brethren should have their Bibles open verifying and checking things out, instead their arms are up flying with their Bibles closed, taking in deceptions in a state of 'drunken' spiritual frenzy as if the Word of God were being revealed to them. The Holy Spirit would never... reveal anything contrary to God's Holy Writ, but instead is given to HELP us understand God's Word as written.



1 Thess.5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Let the deceived party it up as spiritual drunkards that sleep in the night, going around repeating the one-liner slogan doctors. But we instead are to remain spiritually sober, putting on the Gospel armour of Ephesians 6, so as to make a 'stand' in the 'evil day'.


1 Thess.5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
(KJV)

There it is, Paul declaring that God has not appointed us to wrath. Which wrath? By now from Paul's earlier presentation about that "sudden destruction" upon those who will say, "Peace and safety", we should realize what "wrath" this is, and what time it will occur. It's about God's Wrath upon the wicked and deceived on "the day of the Lord", the day of Christ's second coming when we are also gathered to Him per the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter.

And that "wrath" is to occur at an instant, suddenly, per the OT prophets. It's that same "last trump" timing Paul gave in 1 Cor.15 when the saints alive that remain are 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye", and gathered to be with our Lord Jesus and the asleep saints He brings with Him.

 

[mark s]

1 Thess.5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Hi veteran,

While I'm pretty sure we're at opposite sides of the spectrum on this rapture thing, to me, this is the centerpoint passage for your assertion, easily demonstrated, that the wrath we are saved from is not specifically the wrath of the end times leading to Christ's glorious appearing, that is, the "tribulation" (a misnomer in my opinion).

Paul contrasts wrath and salvation, so to me, the wrath is the wrath intrinsic to not having salvation, that is, the wrath of final judgment, the lake of fire.

But, as I said in another thread, debatable, and many do debate that.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[veteran]

[/b]

Hi veteran,

While I'm pretty sure we're at opposite sides of the spectrum on this rapture thing, to me, this is the centerpoint passage for your assertion, easily demonstrated, that the wrath we are saved from is not specifically the wrath of the end times leading to Christ's glorious appearing, that is, the "tribulation" (a misnomer in my opinion).

Paul contrasts wrath and salvation, so to me, the wrath is the wrath intrinsic to not having salvation, that is, the wrath of final judgment, the lake of fire.

But, as I said in another thread, debatable, and many do debate that.

Love in Christ,
Mark

That "wrath" which Paul mentioned in that 1 Thess.5 is 'confined' to the prophetic parameters he was giving there. Taking that 'wrath' out of that chapter's context is why many are confused about which 'wrath' that is, especially the time of its occurance. I can assure you, it is not... about the "lake of fire" event to occur after Christ's future thousand years reign.

See, what you've kind of done with wanting to assign it to the 'lake of fire' time, is exactly one of the errors I was covering in that post. If you'll take time to read the whole post, and verify Paul's references from the OT prophets he was giving there, I think you'll understand what I mean.

 

[mark s]

1 Thess.5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Hi Veteran,

Follow the flow of the passage you are quoting.

We're not appointed to wrath.
We are appointed to obtain salvation.
Jesus died so that whether we live or die, we live with Him - not apart from Him.

But please understand, I have no preference in what I learn from the Bible. It's not a matter of "wanting" to assign . . . It's simply what I understand. I'm perfectly happy to adjust my view if I see that in Scripture.

In this case, the lake of fire is the alternative to living with Jesus regardless of death.

But rest assured, I understand what you are pointing out. Like I said, debatable.

There is the question of whether sleeping is being ignorant or being dead, when referring to the believer in this passage. There is a whole discussion on that.

There is the matter of the sudden destruction. From many passages, it appears to have a certain duration. There are a whole lotta things that happen as part of that wrath, and some of them go on for a while.

And then there is the matter I believe close to your heart, does this reinforce pre-trib or not. Because if it does mean the wrath of God's destruction of wicked in that day, there are some rather compelling arguments that this is a process that begins with a sudden destruction and goes downhill from there, as God both punishes the sinners, and refines Israel.

There is a lot packed behind this simple exersize.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[veteran]

Hi Veteran,

Follow the flow of the passage you are quoting.

We're not appointed to wrath.
We are appointed to obtain salvation.
Jesus died so that whether we live or die, we live with Him - not apart from Him.

Follow the flow? You have given no... flow of Scripture, only doctrines of men. So the previous 8 verses of what Paul covered before that 9th verse mean nothing to you??? That's a plain example of not willing to stay in God's Word as written. Deception is assurred when one does that.

But please understand, I have no preference in what I learn from the Bible. It's not a matter of "wanting" to assign . . . It's simply what I understand. I'm perfectly happy to adjust my view if I see that in Scripture.

In this case, the lake of fire is the alternative to living with Jesus regardless of death.

That argument is irrelevant, since Paul isn't talking about the "lake of fire" event anywhere in that. Just because the idea of destruction is mentioned there does not automatically mean it's about the lake of fire event. Per Rev.20 we know it's not, because Paul is talking about the time of Christ's second coming to start the Rev.20 thousand years period. The lake of fire is at the end of that thousand years period per Rev.20:14-15.

But rest assured, I understand what you are pointing out. Like I said, debatable.

Sorry, I really don't think you understand what all it's pointing to. I wish you did, but at this moment I doubt you.

There is the question of whether sleeping is being ignorant or being dead, when referring to the believer in this passage. There is a whole discussion on that.

No reason for you to not understand about the spiritual sleep idea Paul used in 1 Thess.5 associated with spiritual blindness, since our Lord Jesus even used it (Matt.13). Paul was more specific about it in the Rom.11 Scripture ("spirit of slumber"). He pulled the idea from Isaiah 29, one of the OT chapters I was pointing to. If you haven't yet studied about that in those Scriptures, then naturally you would think it debatable.

Isa 29:10-12
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, "Read this, I pray thee": and he saith, "I cannot; for it is sealed":
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, "Read this, I pray thee": and he saith, "I am not learned."
(KJV)

There is the matter of the sudden destruction. From many passages, it appears to have a certain duration. There are a whole lotta things that happen as part of that wrath, and some of them go on for a while.

How does the word "sudden" mean a certain duration??? Believing that is like throwing a wedge into the meaning of that word which does not belong. God revealed the "sudden destruction" occurring at an instant in His OT prophets, which is where Paul got the "twinkling of an eye" idea (1 Cor.15:52). Rev.11 also agrees with Paul and the OT prophets about it, as the 7th trumpet-3rd Woe is to occur within the same hour that the 6th trumpet-2nd Woe ends, "quickly" it says. That does not go on for a while. The 'for a while' idea is from men's doctrinal additions, leaven.

And then there is the matter I believe close to your heart, does this reinforce pre-trib or not.

I can give you solid NO answer to that already; it does not reinforce pre-trib theory. I'm not saying this because of any bias on my part, but because of the flow of events Paul is covering there from the OT prophets about the "as a thief" and "day of the Lord" timing and events.

Because if it does mean the wrath of God's destruction of wicked in that day, there are some rather compelling arguments that this is a process that begins with a sudden destruction and goes downhill from there, as God both punishes the sinners, and refines Israel.

The OT prophets where Paul was pulling from include more details of what that "sudden destruction" is, like in Isaiah 25. It's about the destruction of this present world order, the "elements" of 2 Peter 3:10. Have you ever bothered to look up the Greek for that KJV word "elements"? It's not about earthly material elements; it's about the beggardly elements, the order of man's works on this earth. It's about the ending of a world age of time where man's order on the earth has been in control of the earth. That "sudden destruction" from God is what ends it, and brings Christ's literal reign on earth over all nations and peoples.

Zechariah 14 reveals not all that come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world will be literally destroyed. There's going to be a "resurrection of damnation" too AT... Christ's coming (John 5:28-29). The vail of the Heavenly cast over the eyes of all nations is going to be removed when it happens, suddenly, at an instant, at the "twinkling of an eye" like Paul said. Don't you remember Rev.1 where our Lord Jesus said even those who pierced Him will see Him coming in the clouds on that future day? Paul was not specific in 1 Cor.15 about the "resurrection of damnation" that are changed also at Christ's coming, but he did point to it in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:52-53.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Mark S.

[/b]

Hi veteran,

While I'm pretty sure we're at opposite sides of the spectrum on this rapture thing, to me, this is the centerpoint passage for your assertion, easily demonstrated, that the wrath we are saved from is not specifically the wrath of the end times leading to Christ's glorious appearing, that is, the "tribulation" (a misnomer in my opinion).

Paul contrasts wrath and salvation, so to me, the wrath is the wrath intrinsic to not having salvation, that is, the wrath of final judgment, the lake of fire.

But, as I said in another thread, debatable, and many do debate that.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Here's something to consider: You're right that Paul contrasts wrath and salvation. However, if you follow the logic between Romans 10:13, a verse quoted from Joel 2:32, you will find that "salvation" means national "RESCUE," not personal justification by God. So, in light of that distinction, what does that do to the "wrath" that is contrasted with national "RESCUE?"

 

[mark s]

Follow the flow? You have given no... flow of Scripture, only doctrines of men. So the previous 8 verses of what Paul covered before that 9th verse mean nothing to you??? That's a plain example of not willing to stay in God's Word as written. Deception is assurred when one does that.

Hi veteran,

Compare what I've written with the passage I'm referencing.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 LITV
(9) because God has not appointed us to wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
(10) He dying on our behalf, so that whether we watch or we sleep, we may live together with Him.

We're not appointed to wrath.
We are appointed to obtain salvation.
Jesus died so that whether we live or die, we live with Him - not apart from Him.

You truly do not see the parallel to what I had written and the verses I was referrencing?

Now, someone may argue, Paul did not mean whether we live or die, rather, whether we pay attention or don't pay attention. However, in the previous verses, the contrast was not of waking and sleeping, it was watching and sleeping. And the sleeping was what the unbeliever does. We are not to do that. We are to watch.

Just before this part, Paul uses "sleep" of the believer, not the unbeliever. When Paul used "sleep" of the believer, it was for "death".

Again, debatable, But I don't know why you would say I've departed from Scripture.

Frankly, this is becoming tedious.

So the previous 8 verses of what Paul covered before that 9th verse mean nothing to you??? That's a plain example of not willing to stay in God's Word as written. Deception is assurred when one does that.

Scripture means nothing to me?

I don't want to stick to what the Bible says?

I'm deceived?

If this is what debate means on this forum, then clearly I'm in the wrong place.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Shalom, Mark S.

Here's something to consider: You're right that Paul contrasts wrath and salvation. However, if you follow the logic between Romans 10:13, a verse quoted from Joel 2:32, you will find that "salvation" means national "RESCUE," not personal justification by God. So, in light of that distinction, what does that do to the "wrath" that is contrasted with national "RESCUE?"

Hi Retrobyter,

The short answer is that the matter is debatable. I believe a case can be made for either view. Of course, the question becomes, did Paul mean "national rescue"?

Considering he was writing to the Thessalonian assembly, are you thinking he meant Israel's national rescue? Greece? The worldwide body of believers? I'm thinking that he was speaking generally of Christians.

Let's look at those passages:

Romans 10:9-13 LITV
(9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
(11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame." Isa. 28:16
(12) For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich toward all the ones calling on Him.
(13) For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:32

You will be saved seems to me to be speaking of personal salvation. Words I'm making red above seem to me to continue the idea of personal salvation.

So then, is that inconsistent with how Joel said it?

Joel 2:28-32 LITV
(28) And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
(29) And also I will pour out My Spirit on the slaves and on the slave-girls in those days.
(30) And I will give signs in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and columns of smoke.
(31) The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH.
(32) For it shall be, all who shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved. For salvation shall be in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, as YHWH has said, and among the survivors whom YHWH shall call.

All who call seems to me to be a personal invitation. Salvation shall be in Mount Zion, where Jesus is returning to, and in Jerusalem, but not limited there, for the prophet says, "and among the survivors whom YHWH shall call."

Peter quotes this passage too. How did he apply it?

Acts 2:15-39 LITV
(15) For these are not drunk, as you imagine, for it is the third hour of the day.
(16) But this is that which has been spoken by the prophet Joel,
(17) "And it shall be" in the last days, God says, "I will pour from My Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy;" "and your young men shall see visions," "and your old men shall dream dreams;"
(18) "and also I will pour out My Spirit on My slaves and slave women in those days," and they shall prophesy.
(19) "And I will give wonders in the heaven above," and miraculous signs "on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
(20) The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the" "coming of the great and glorious" "day of the Lord."
(21) "And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:28-32
(22) Men, Israelites, hear these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a Man from God, having been approved among you by works of power and wonders and miraculous signs, which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
(23) this One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him.
(24) But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.
(25) For David said as to Him, "I always foresaw the Lord before Me, because He is at My right hand, that I not be moved.
(26) For this reason My heart rejoiced, and My tongue was glad; and My flesh also will dwell on hope,
(27) because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.
(28) You revealed to Me paths of life; You will fill Me with joy with Your face." LXX-Psa. 15:8-11; MT-Psa. 16:8-11
(29) Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us until this day.
(30) Being a prophet, then, and knowing that God swore with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loin, as concerning flesh, to raise the Christ to sit on his throne, see Psa. 132:11
(31) foreseeing, he spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, "that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." LXX-Psa. 15:10; Mt-Psa. 16:10
(32) This Jesus, God raised up, of which we all are witnesses.
(33) Then being exalted to the right of God, and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
(34) For David did not ascend into Heaven, but he says, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand
(35) until I place those hostile to You as a footstool for Your feet." LXX-Psa. 109:1; MT-Psa. 110:1
(36) Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that God made Him both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus whom you crucified.
(37) And hearing, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men, brothers, What shall we do?
(38) And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(39) For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This seems to me to be a personal appeal to be personally saved. "As many as the Lord our God shall call" may arise from Joel 2:32B, which Peter did not quote, but may be here alluded to.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

Compare what I've written with the passage I'm referencing.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-10 LITV
(9) because God has not appointed us to wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
(10) He dying on our behalf, so that whether we watch or we sleep, we may live together with Him.

No, I refuse to bite on such ignorance as your skipping the previous 8 verses in 1 Thess.5 just to jump on a bunch of doctrines of men about that sole 9th verse. Doing that isn't just ignorance, it is showing a willingness to DECEIVE OTHERS HERE ALSO!!

That's right, I think you well heard me too! You're not interested in staying within the Scripture, you're interested in pushing false doctrines of men to deceive with!!! May God rebuke you!

 

[mark s]

No, I refuse to bite on such ignorance as your skipping the previous 8 verses in 1 Thess.5 just to jump on a bunch of doctrines of men about that sole 9th verse. Doing that isn't just ignorance, it is showing a willingness to DECEIVE OTHERS HERE ALSO!!

That's right, I think you well heard me too! You're not interested in staying within the Scripture, you're interested in pushing false doctrines of men to deceive with!!! May God rebuke you!

Hi veteran,

You know nothing about me, and yet you know so much!!

It is certainly easier to argue against me than my view, I realize. However, I have no interest in responding to this sort of hostility beyond what I've just said.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Mark S.

...
Hi Retrobyter,

The short answer is that the matter is debatable. I believe a case can be made for either view. Of course, the question becomes, did Paul mean "national rescue"?

Considering he was writing to the Thessalonian assembly, are you thinking he meant Israel's national rescue? Greece? The worldwide body of believers? I'm thinking that he was speaking generally of Christians.

Remember: Although Paul was writing to the called-out group at Thessalonika, Asia, he was primarily writing to the Jews within that community. He always started his ministry within a community "to the Jew first and also to the Gentile." He would go into town, find the Jewish synagogue, and declare to them the Messiah Yeshua`. IF they accepted the message, he would continue teaching within the synagogue. IF they did NOT accept the message, then he would branch out to teach to the Gentiles of that town.

Consider the following rendition of 1 Thess. 5:1-10:

1 Thess 5:1-11
5 1 But you have no need to have anything written to you, brothers, about the times and dates when this will happen; 2 because you yourselves well know that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When people are saying, “Everything is so peaceful and secure,” then destruction will suddenly come upon them, the way labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there is no way they will escape.
4 But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; 5 for you are all people who belong to the light, who belong to the day. We don’t belong to the night or to darkness, 6 so let’s not be asleep, like the rest are; on the contrary, let us stay alert and sober. 7 People who sleep, sleep at night; and people who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us stay sober, putting on trust and love as a breastplate and the hope of being delivered as a helmet. 9 For God has not intended that we should experience his fury, but that we should gain deliverance through our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, 10 who died on our behalf so that whether we are alive or dead, we may live along with him. 11 Therefore, encourage each other, and build each other up — just as you are doing.
CJB

This is NOT about "being born again"; this is about the DAY OF THE LORD! We are to protect ourselves by putting on the "body armor" of trust (in God) and love (for God and others). We are also to don the helmet of the confidence (hope) of "being delivered." Being delivered from what? From the wrath found in the Day of the LORD!

We gain deliverance through our Master Yeshua` (whose name MEANS "Rescue!") the Messiah or the Anointed, i.e., to become King!

Let's look at those passages:

Romans 10:9-13 LITV
(9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
(11) For the Scripture says, "Everyone believing on Him will not be put to shame." Isa. 28:16
(12) For there is no difference both of Jew and of Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich toward all the ones calling on Him.
(13) For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:32

You will be saved seems to me to be speaking of personal salvation. Words I'm making red above seem to me to continue the idea of personal salvation.

So then, is that inconsistent with how Joel said it?

Yes, it IS inconsistent, but let's go a little farther and then I'd like to take you from Joel 2:28-32 BACK to Romans 10:9-13...

Joel 2:28-32 LITV
(28) And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
(29) And also I will pour out My Spirit on the slaves and on the slave-girls in those days.
(30) And I will give signs in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and columns of smoke.
(31) The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of YHWH.
(32) For it shall be, all who shall call on the name of YHWH shall be saved. For salvation shall be in Mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, as YHWH has said, and among the survivors whom YHWH shall call.

All who call seems to me to be a personal invitation. Salvation shall be in Mount Zion, where Jesus is returning to, and in Jerusalem, but not limited there, for the prophet says, "and among the survivors whom YHWH shall call."

Okay, first, let's look at Yo'el's prophecy in Joel 2 and it's context:

Joel 2:1-4:21
2:1 “Blow the shofar in Tziyon!
Sound an alarm on my holy mountain!”
Let all living in the land tremble,
for the Day of Adonai is coming! It’s upon us!
—
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and thick fog;
a great and mighty horde is spreading
like blackness over the mountains.
There has never been anything like it,
nor will there ever be again,
not even after the years
of many generations.
3 Ahead of them a fire devours,
behind them a flame consumes;
ahead the land is like Gan-‘Eden,
behind them a desert waste.
From them there is no escape.
4 They look like horses,
and like cavalry they charge.
5 With a rumble like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like crackling flames devouring stubble,
like a mighty horde in battle array.
6 At their presence the peoples writhe in anguish,
every face is drained of color.
7 Like warriors they charge,
they scale the wall like soldiers.
Each one keeps to his own course,
without getting in the other’s way.
8 They don’t jostle each other,
but stay on their own paths;
they burst through defenses unharmed,
without even breaking rank.
9 They rush into the city,
they run along the wall,
they climb up into the houses,
entering like a thief through the windows.
10 At their advance the earth quakes,
and the sky shakes,
the sun and moon turn black,
and the stars stop shining.
11 Adonai shouts orders to his forces —
his army is immense, mighty,
and it does what he says.
For great is the Day of Adonai, fearsome,
terrifying! Who can endure it?

12 “Yet even now,” says Adonai,“
turn to me with all your heart,
with fasting, weeping and lamenting.”
13 Tear your heart, not your garments;
and turn to Adonai your God.
For he is merciful and compassionate,
slow to anger, rich in grace,
and willing to change his mind about disaster.
14 Who knows? He may turn, change his mind
and leave a blessing behind him,
[enough for] grain offerings and drink offerings
to present to Adonai your God.

15 “Blow the shofar in Tziyon!
Proclaim a holy fast,
call for a solemn assembly.”

16 Gather the people; consecrate the congregation;
assemble the leaders; gather the children,
even infants sucking at the breast;
let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride the bridal chamber.
17 Let the cohanim (priests), who serve Adonai,
stand weeping between the vestibule and the altar.
Let them say, “Spare your people, Adonai!
Don’t expose your heritage to mockery,
or make them a byword among the Goyim.
Why should the peoples say, ‘Where is their God?’”

18 Then Adonai will become jealous for his land
and have pity on his people.
19 Here is how Adonai will answer his people:
“I will send you grain, wine and olive oil,
enough to satisfy you;
and no longer will I make you
a mockery among the Goyim.
20 No, I will take the northerner away,
far away from you,
and drive him to a land
that is waste and barren;
with his vanguard toward the eastern sea
and his rearguard toward the western sea,
his stench and his rottenness will rise,
because he has done great things.”

21 Don’t fear, O soil; be glad! rejoice!
for Adonai has done great things.
22 Don’t be afraid, wild animals;
for the desert pastures are green,
the trees are putting out their fruit,
the fig tree and vine are giving full yield.
23 Be glad, people of Tziyon!
rejoice in Adonai your God!
For he is giving you
the right amount of rain in the fall,
he makes the rain come down for you,
the fall and spring rains — this is what he does first.
24 Then the floors will be full of grain
and the vats overflow with wine and olive oil.

25 “I will restore to you the years that the locusts ate,
the grasshoppers, shearer-worms and cutter-worms,
my great army that I sent against you.
26 You will eat until you are satisfied
and will praise the name of Adonai your God,
who has done with you such wonders.
Then my people will never again be shamed.

27 You will know that I am with Isra’el
and that I am Adonai your God,
and that there is no other.
Then my people will never again be shamed.

3:1(2:28) “After this, I will pour out
my Spirit on all humanity.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions;
2(2:29) and also on male and female slaves
in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
3(2:30) I will show wonders in the sky and on earth —
blood, fire and columns of smoke.
4(2:31) The sun will be turned into darkness
and the moon into blood
before the coming of the great
and terrible Day of Adonai.”

5(2:32) At that time, whoever calls
on the name of Adonai will be saved.
For in Mount Tziyon and Yerushalayim
there will be those who escape,
as Adonai has promised;
among the survivors will be those
whom Adonai has called.

4(3) 1 “For then, at that time, when I restore
the fortunes of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim,
2 I will gather all nations and bring them down
to the Valley of Y’hoshafat [Adonai judges].
I will enter into judgment there
for my people, my heritage Isra’el,
whom they scattered among the nations;
then they divided my land.
3 They drew lots for my people,
traded boys for whores,
sold girls for wine to drink.

4 “Moreover, what have you against me,
Tzor, Tzidon, all parts of P’leshet?
Are you paying me back for something I did?
If you’re paying me back for something I did,
then easily, quickly, I’ll pay you back
right on your own head.
5 You took my silver and gold.
You brought my good treasures into your temples.
6 The people of Y’hudah and Yerushalayim
you sold to the Greeks, so that you could remove them
far away from their land.
7 I will rouse them from the place where you sold them
and pay you back right on your own head —
8 I will sell your sons and daughters
to the people of Y’hudah;
and they will sell them to the men of Sh’va,
a nation far off; for Adonai has spoken.

9 “Proclaim this among the nations:
'Prepare for war! Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men approach and attack.’
10 Hammer your plow-blades into swords
and your pruning-knives into spears.
Let the weak say, ‘I am strong.’
11 Hurry, come, you surrounding nations,
gather yourselves together!”

Bring your warriors down, Adonai!

12 “Let the nations be roused and come up
to the Valley of Y’hoshafat [Adonai judges].
For there I will sit to judge
all the surrounding nations.”

13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe;
come, and tread, for the winepress is full.
The vats are overflowing,
for their wickedness is great.
14 Such enormous crowds
in the Valley of Decision!
For the Day of Adonai is upon us
in the Valley of Decision!
15 The sun and moon have grown black,
and the stars have stopped shining.
16 Adonai will roar from Tziyon,
he will thunder from Yerushalayim,
the sky and the earth will shake.

But Adonai will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Isra’el.
17 “You will know that I am Adonai your God,
living on Tziyon my holy mountain.”

Then Yerushalayim will be holy,
and foreigners will pass through her no more.
18 Then, when that time comes,
the mountains will drip with sweet wine,
the hills will flow with milk,
all the streambeds of Y’hudah will run with water,
and a spring will flow from the house of Adonai
to water the Sheetim Valley.

19 But Egypt will be desolate
and Edom a desert waste,
because of the violence done to the people of Y’hudah,
because they shed innocent blood in their land.

20 Y’hudah will be inhabited forever,
Yerushalayim through all generations.
21 “I will cleanse them of bloodguilt
which I have not yet cleansed,"
for Adonai is living in Tziyon.
CJB

Now, tell me this doesn't have to do with "national rescue!"

Now, let's go back and look at Romans 10 again with a fresh perspective. This can be difficult because we are so conditioned through sermon after sermon to see it solely from one perspective, but keep Joel 2:32 and context in mind when you read:

Romans 10:1-21
1 Brothers, my deepest desire and prayer to God for Isra’el is that they might be delivered.
2 For I can attest to the fact that they have a zeal for God, but not corresponding to full knowledge.
3 For while they are ignorant of God’s righteousness and attempting to form their own righteousness, they have not humbled themselves to God’s righteousness.
4 For the Messiah is the satisfaction of the Torah into righteousness to everyone who trusts Him.
5 For Mosheh described the righteousness out of the Torah thusly, that “The man who performs those things shall live by them.”
6 But, the righteousness that stems from trust is spoken about this way: “Don’t say in the core (of your thinking), ‘Who will ascend into the sky?’” that is, to bring the Messiah down.
7 “Nor, ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead.
8 But what does (the Scriptures) say? “The message is close to you, already in you mouth and in the core (of your thinking)”; that is, the message about trust in whom we herald.
9 Namely that, if you shall admit with your mouth that Yeshua` is the Master and shall trust in the core (of your thinking) that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be delivered.
10 For the core (of your thinking) trusts (God) into righteousness, but agreement with one’s mouth into deliverance.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever trusts upon Him shall not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Master over both is generous to both those who cry out to Him.
13 For “all whoever shall cry out to the authority of the Master shall be delivered.”
14 Then, how shall they cry out to one they have never trusted? But how shall they trust about whom they have never heard? But how shall they hear without a herald?
15 And how shall they herald if they’ve never been commissioned? As it is written, “How welcome the (running) feet of those who bring the good news about peace and good (events)!”
16 However, not everyone has listened carefully to the good news. For Yesha`yahu said, “ADONAI, who has trusted our information?”
17 So then the trust (grows) out of careful listening, but careful listening to Messiah’s utterance.
18 But I say, Haven’t they carefully listened? But of course! “Their sound went into all the earth and their utterances into the extremes of the world.”
19 But I say, Didn’t Isra’el know? First, Mosheh said, “I will provoke you to jealousy over no people; I will anger you over an unintelligent nation.”
20 But Yesha`yahu ventured plainly and said, “I was found in those who didn’t look for me; I became apparent to those who didn’t inquire about me.”
21 But he said to Isra’el, “I have stretched out my hands all day long to a disobedient and contradictory people!”

Can you see how the underlying theme is the national deliverance of Isra'el?

Peter quotes this passage too. How did he apply it?

Acts 2:15-39 LITV
(15) For these are not drunk, as you imagine, for it is the third hour of the day.
(16) But this is that which has been spoken by the prophet Joel,
(17) "And it shall be" in the last days, God says, "I will pour from My Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy;" "and your young men shall see visions," "and your old men shall dream dreams;"
(18) "and also I will pour out My Spirit on My slaves and slave women in those days," and they shall prophesy.
(19) "And I will give wonders in the heaven above," and miraculous signs "on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
(20) The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the" "coming of the great and glorious" "day of the Lord."
(21) "And it shall be that everyone who shall call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:28-32
(22) Men, Israelites, hear these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a Man from God, having been approved among you by works of power and wonders and miraculous signs, which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
(23) this One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him.
(24) But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it.
(25) For David said as to Him, "I always foresaw the Lord before Me, because He is at My right hand, that I not be moved.
(26) For this reason My heart rejoiced, and My tongue was glad; and My flesh also will dwell on hope,
(27) because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You give Your Holy One to see corruption.
(28) You revealed to Me paths of life; You will fill Me with joy with Your face." LXX-Psa. 15:8-11; MT-Psa. 16:8-11
(29) Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us until this day.
(30) Being a prophet, then, and knowing that God swore with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loin, as concerning flesh, to raise the Christ to sit on his throne, see Psa. 132:11
(31) foreseeing, he spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, "that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." LXX-Psa. 15:10; Mt-Psa. 16:10
(32) This Jesus, God raised up, of which we all are witnesses.
(33) Then being exalted to the right of God, and receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
(34) For David did not ascend into Heaven, but he says, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand
(35) until I place those hostile to You as a footstool for Your feet." LXX-Psa. 109:1; MT-Psa. 110:1
(36) Then assuredly, let all the house of Israel acknowledge that God made Him both Lord and Christ, this same Jesus whom you crucified.
(37) And hearing, they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men, brothers, What shall we do?
(38) And Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, each of you on the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(39) For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

This seems to me to be a personal appeal to be personally saved. "As many as the Lord our God shall call" may arise from Joel 2:32B, which Peter did not quote, but may be here alluded to.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Well, again, it may SEEM that way to you, but notice that Kefa (Cephas, Peter) mentioned more of the passage! (I put them in bold-face type, as well as the verse you highlighted.) Make no mistake; Kefa DOES want them to submit to the righteousness of God through acceptance of the Messiah, but "saved" is NOT the word for that righteousness! A key verse here is verse 36:

"God made Him both Lord (Master) and Christ (God's Anointed or God's Choice to be King), this same Jesus (Yeshua`) whom you crucified."

 

[7angels]

1 Thess.5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
(KJV)

There it is, Paul declaring that God has not appointed us to wrath. Which wrath? By now from Paul's earlier presentation about that "sudden destruction" upon those who will say, "Peace and safety", we should realize what "wrath" this is, and what time it will occur. It's about God's Wrath upon the wicked and deceived on "the day of the Lord", the day of Christ's second coming when we are also gathered to Him per the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter.

And that "wrath" is to occur at an instant, suddenly, per the OT prophets. It's that same "last trump" timing Paul gave in 1 Cor.15 when the saints alive that remain are 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye", and gathered to be with our Lord Jesus and the asleep saints He brings with Him.

this is the only point i differ from you on veteran. i know where you are coming from but i believe there is more meaning to this verse then what you have posted. yes it refers to the Lord's coming but what those verses say when all put together for me is that it tells christians everywhere to live a Holy life. because this holy lifestyle will assure you a place in heaven. it says that if you are not living the righteous lifestyle that you may miss the Lord on his return.

the wrath that is being referred to here to me along with other places in the word refer to tribulations, persecutions, and ect that we as christians must endure while here on earth. if you look to who God is referring to as "us" in verse 9 you will notice that it is the church. which is one reason i believe the we will be raptured out before the great tribulation start. the great tribulation is God's wrath on on isreal. verse 9 shows us that we are to be spared the wrath. now i am not going to debate the subject with you but ask that you respect my beliefs even if you do not agree with them. i will clarify further on subjects concerning this discussion but arguing i will not do. if you want to argue them i will concede and let you win if that makes you feel better. i figure if i am wrong then God himself can correct my thinking but if it is man telling me then i will agree to disagree with you.

Hope this helps

 

[veteran]

this is the only point i differ from you on veteran. i know where you are coming from but i believe there is more meaning to this verse then what you have posted. yes it refers to the Lord's coming but what those verses say when all put together for me is that it tells christians everywhere to live a Holy life. because this holy lifestyle will assure you a place in heaven. it says that if you are not living the righteous lifestyle that you may miss the Lord on his return.

the wrath that is being referred to here to me along with other places in the word refer to tribulations, persecutions, and ect that we as christians must endure while here on earth. if you look to who God is referring to as "us" in verse 9 you will notice that it is the church. which is one reason i believe the we will be raptured out before the great tribulation start. the great tribulation is God's wrath on on isreal. verse 9 shows us that we are to be spared the wrath. now i am not going to debate the subject with you but ask that you respect my beliefs even if you do not agree with them. i will clarify further on subjects concerning this discussion but arguing i will not do. if you want to argue them i will concede and let you win if that makes you feel better. i figure if i am wrong then God himself can correct my thinking but if it is man telling me then i will agree to disagree with you.

Hope this helps

This is not about one of us trying to 'win' an argument. I don't play such games.

This matter is about whether one desires to 'stay' within the Scripture as written or not, instead of taking it out of context of the chapter it's written in.

You've done the very same error that mark s did, jumped to the 1 Thess.5:9 verse and added a bunch of leaven to it, as you have evidently been taught to do by pre-trib rapture preachers. Keeping that verse in context with the previous 8 verses in 1 Thess.5 makes it impossible to do what you're doing with that 9th verse.

 

[7angels]

veteran when you become a smith wigglesworth, john lake, katherine coleman or amy mcpherson then i will start listening to your advice about what is or is not scriptural. because if you are as knowledgeable about scripture as you claim them you would fall into the same category as those listed above but you don't so somewhere you are not in line with God's word as well as you think you are. i don't mean to demean you but you talk like a religious leader of Jesus' time who believe they are all holier than thou attitude and who Jesus called a hypocrite.

i have a question for you veteran. why did Jesus call the pharisees a hypocrite when Jesus was a perfect man. doesn't calling someone names even if it is a pharisee wrong? please elaborate on why or why not you believe Jesus was or was not right in doing what he did.

if you are not sure then i will share with you why and show you scripturally why what he did was not wrong.

God bless you all

 

[mark s]

Just a simple return to Romans 10:9-10 confirms for us that "saved" is used for the individual:

Romans 10:9-10 LITV
(9) Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
(10) For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.

This whole portion of Scripture speaks of personal salvation, using that word.

You've quoted this passage, but then simply said, Don't you see how it's about Isael's national deliverance? Frankly, no I don't. The Gospel, the message of salvation has gone out to a nation, but individuals are the ones being saved.

Paul's whole theme in that passage is why isn't Israel saved? His answer? Individuals from about the Israelites are being saved.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[veteran]

veteran when you become a smith wigglesworth, john lake, katherine coleman or amy mcpherson then i will start listening to your advice about what is or is not scriptural. because if you are as knowledgeable about scripture as you claim them you would fall into the same category as those listed above but you don't so somewhere you are not in line with God's word as well as you think you are. i don't mean to demean you but you talk like a religious leader of Jesus' time who believe they are all holier than thou attitude and who Jesus called a hypocrite.

i have a question for you veteran. why did Jesus call the pharisees a hypocrite when Jesus was a perfect man. doesn't calling someone names even if it is a pharisee wrong? please elaborate on why or why not you believe Jesus was or was not right in doing what he did.

if you are not sure then i will share with you why and show you scripturally why what he did was not wrong.

God bless you all

Since you have such disrespect for God's Holy Writ, skipping whole sections of verses, I really don't care how much more deceived you become. Afterall, some people have to learn the hard way, and apparently you're one of those.

 

[avoice]

7 angels
I dont know what scripture you think you have Jesus was wrong, but that statement in itself is unbiblcal.
Have you not read Christ was perfect ? yet you say he was wrong ..Tells me you have no idea who the Pharisees were and what Jesus was teaching here .The names idenify who they are.You obviously do not understand that every word spoken by Jesus had reason ....
..................................
Vetran
In answer to your Opening post question
What Wrath Are Christ's Servants Not Appointed To
very easy answer ... Rev. 16-17 This wrath is reserved for the wicked.

Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev. 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

 

[veteran]

Vetran
In answer to your Opening post question
What Wrath Are Christ's Servants Not Appointed To
very easy answer ... Rev. 16-17 This wrath is reserved for the wicked.

Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev. 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Yes, and I agree. However... have you ever looked closely at the Rev.16:15 verse as to 'whom' our Lord Jesus was speaking to at that point?

What I see, (which must include the OT prophets who were given to write about "the day of the Lord"), is that idea of 'wrath' comes in two stages, one upon the wicked 'during' the tribulation time while Christ's Church is still here alive on earth, and then a final wrath on "the day of the Lord" to occur at the same time as Christ's coming.

Thus in 1 Thess.5:9 by Apostle Paul, since he was speaking of a "sudden destruction" connected with "the day of the Lord", he was speaking of that final wrath on the 7th Vial when our Lord Jesus comes. That's where that "sudden destruction" idea comes from within the OT prophets; it's in connection with "day of the Lord" events.

 

[7angels]

7 angels
I dont know what scripture you think you have Jesus was wrong, but that statement in itself is unbiblcal.
Have you not read Christ was perfect ? yet you say he was wrong ..Tells me you have no idea who the Pharisees were and what Jesus was teaching here .The names idenify who they are.You obviously do not understand that every word spoken by Jesus had reason ....

i did not say Jesus was wrong but asked why since Jesus was perfect that he had to have a reason to call the pharisees hypocrites(hypocrites can also be referred to as name calling). so if Jesus was not insulting the pharisees then what was he doing it for? what was his reason?

 

[avoice]

i did not say Jesus was wrong but asked why since Jesus was perfect that he had to have a reason to call the pharisees hypocrites(hypocrites can also be referred to as name calling). so if Jesus was not insulting the pharisees then what was he doing it for? what was his reason?

Sorry, your right I misread your post you didnt say that, Jesus called them that because thats what they were.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither allow you them that are entering to go in.

The word hypocrites in this verse is sometimes translated pretenders or actors (see strongs) an insult is only an insult if its not true ..The Pharisees knew exactly what they were. Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Yes, and I agree. However... have you ever looked closely at the Rev.16:15 verse as to 'whom' our Lord Jesus was speaking to at that point?

What I see, (which must include the OT prophets who were given to write about "the day of the Lord"), is that idea of 'wrath' comes in two stages, one upon the wicked 'during' the tribulation time while Christ's Church is still here alive on earth, and then a final wrath on "the day of the Lord" to occur at the same time as Christ's coming.

Thus in 1 Thess.5:9 by Apostle Paul, since he was speaking of a "sudden destruction" connected with "the day of the Lord", he was speaking of that final wrath on the 7th Vial when our Lord Jesus comes. That's where that "sudden destruction" idea comes from within the OT prophets; it's in connection with "day of the Lord" events.

No I dont see that
We are probably not going to agree on this because we see it differently.
Christ comes once delivers his wrath once. There is Satan wrath upon men and God wrath upon Satan.

As far as Rev. 16:15 I believe he talking to those who did not make the first resurection,
The age of grace ended the moment the 7th trump sounded ..your garments/robes are your works ...
These people did not accept grace when it was offered all they have is their works ... They will be taught in the Millieum
Do not be caught naked less your shame show is a figure of speech.

Sorry software wont let me make two posts at once

 

[7angels]

Sorry, your right I misread your post you didnt say that, Jesus called them that because thats what they were.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither allow you them that are entering to go in.

The word hypocrites in this verse is sometimes translated pretenders or actors (see strongs) an insult is only an insult if its not true ..The Pharisees knew exactly what they were. Luk 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

an insult is not just an insult if it is not true. an insult is something that calls people things that they take as an offense. i can bet the jewish leaders of that time were insulted. now i agree that the statement Jesus made was true but why is what he said any different then if i called veteran for example a hypocrite because of some of the things he says could be considered hypocritical. but when does telling someone that become right or wrong?

makes you wonder

God bless you all