Apostle Paul Showed The Antichrist MUST Come First

[Davy]

Those in Christ really should not have difficulty with understanding that Lord Jesus returns in the future after... the great tribulation which He warned us about in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, compared with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). That is the exact same... timing Apostle Paul also taught about Christ's future return and gathering of the Church per 1 Thess.4:13-17.

Here in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul again makes it plain that the Antichrist ("man of sin") MUST... come first, PRIOR to Christ's future coming and gathering of the Church.

And beware of those who try... to turn what Paul taught here around, showing their false fruit of working against the actual written Bible Scriptures.

2 Thess 2:1-14
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

The subject Paul begins with is easy, it's about the event of Christ's future coming and His gathering of His Church.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

That "day of Christ" is about the Old Testament "day of the Lord" per Isaiah 2:12, which Apostles Paul and Peter also prophesied of in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10. It represents the FINAL DAY of this present world.

(In various Greek manuscripts, the reading is not Greek 'christos' for "Christ" but Greek kurios for 'lord', making Paul's meaning clear that he was pointing to the "day of the Lord". See the following...

2 Thessalonians 2:2
Day of Christ. 'Aleph A B Delta G f g, Vulgate, read 'of the Lord.'
from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997-2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Note that phrase Paul says, "nor by letter as from us". That points to the likelihood that there were some false ones within the Thessalonian Church spreading fake letters, and claiming they were written by the Apostles. That would explain why Paul shows here that he is having to remind them about this order for Christ's future coming to gather the Church after the Antichrist false-Christ appears first.


Back to 2 Thess.2...

2 Thess 2:3-14
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul shows above TWO EVENTS must... happen first, PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather us on the "day of the Lord".

1. "except there come a falling away first" = the Greek for "away" is apostasia, which is where we get our English word 'apostasy' from. It means to become an apostate away from Christ. It will especially apply to deceived brethren when the false-Messiah shows up first, and they instead bow in worship to him instead of remaining a spiritual "chaste virgin" waiting on Jesus to come afterwards (See 2 Corinthians 11).

2. and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition = this is the 2nd requirement that MUST happen before Jesus comes to gather His Church.

BOTH no.1 and no.2 events happen TOGETHER. Some in today's Churches are not remembering Jesus' and Paul's warnings about the coming of a PSEUDO-CHRIST that will work great signs, wonders, and miracles and exalt himself AS Jesus Christ... prior to Lord Jesus' future coming.

In 2 Cor.11 Paul warned about the "another Jesus", and even linked Satan's transforming himself as "an angel of light" and his ministers as "ministers of righteousness" along with that warning. In Matthew 24:23-26 Lord Jesus warned us about the coming of a pseudo-Christ with the power of miracles that IF... it were possible, would deceive even His very elect. And He said when someone comes up to you and says something like, "Behold, Christ is here, or there", Jesus said to believe it not. In Revelation 13:11-14 Christ through His Apostle John once again reveals the coming false-Christ (the real meaning of the word Antichrist). There we are shown that false-Christ will appear AS a lamb (Jesus), but speak as a "dragon" (title for Satan). And he will work miracles, raining fire down from heaven to earth in the sight of men, to deceive the whole world.

Therefore how... can any of those Bible Scripture warnings about the coming of a false-Christ be forgotten when coming to study this 2 Thessalonians 2 Chapter by Apostle Paul? If your Church preacher fails to cover those coming false-Christ Scriptures along with this 2 Thess.2 Chapter, then you should ask why they are not doing so.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The 2 Thessalonians 2:3 & 4 verses go together. They are about the SAME timing. The appearance of that "man of sin" (false Christ) in Jerusalem for the END is what will cause that great apostasy away from the TRUE Christ.

That coming false-Christ will EXALT himself AS GOD in a TRADITIONAL "temple of God" in Jerusalem.

There are many today, mainly Jews, who try to get that understanding about that "temple of God" away from... the area of Jerusalem for the end, but a traditional Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem is what Apostle Paul was pointing to. Now Satan's host will try and tell you that "temple of God" means Christ's Spiritual Temple of Ephesians 2, which is impossible, because that would mean that "man of sin" could corrupt Jesus Christ Himself! I say that, because the True Spirit Temple is of The Spirit, and is made up of the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as its Cornerstone, and those in Christ even as "lively stones"! If the true Church of The Spirit could be corrupted, then it would mean there really is NO Salvation through Faith on Jesus Christ! That's how stupid that false doctrine by the "synagogue of Satan" actually is.

Thus Paul was pointing solidly to a Material Stone Temple in Jerusalem being required for the END of this world for that coming false-Christ to sit in, and play GOD.

What does that mean with that false one exalting himself over ALL that is CALLED GOD or that is WORSHIPED? It means just that. That false-Christ will CLAIM to be GOD, even the god or messiahs of ALL the various religions of the world. Now... maybe you understand what all the Ecumenical globalist religious movement is about today? The false-Christ will pull ALL... the world's religions into one boat. The secret societies have even been teaching that very idea in all countries for many centuries already. The United Nations has even made laws against anyone discriminating the religion of another person, something they no doubt are going to use against Christians and The Bible which reveals that Faith on Jesus Christ is the ONLY WAY of Salvation, and that all other religions are false.


5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Apostle Paul is recalling to them how he already taught them this order for Christ's future coming and gathering of the Church, but now he is having to remind them all over again about it. What happened? False ones crept in trying to distort it, even as it is on Christian forums with false ones come to distort it also.

(God allows us to be deceived if that's what we want. So don't ever think God will automatically correct any deceptions you get from your listening to false teachers. You have to stay in His Word as written, and that is how The Holy Spirit shows you the Truth.)

(Continued...)

 

[Davy]

(Continued...)

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul is not... talking about The Holy Spirit doing that withholding of the coming "man of sin" (false-Christ). That is about the Archangel Michael doing that 'withholding' of the coming false-Christ until it's time for him to be booted out of the Heavenly dimension down to this earth, with his angels, per the Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture.

Here is where that 'withholding' was first mentioned...

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
KJV

That Daniel 10 Chapter is a vision shown Daniel of Heavenly operations linked to earthly events. That "prince of Persia" represents Satan himself in the Heavenly dimension over the Medo-Persia timed event on earth, and then over the Grecia event on earth after that. It's a type of Heavenly parallel to events on earth which God's angels and Satan are behind. The Archangel Gabriel is most likely who is speaking to Daniel about Archangel Michael withholding Satan with him, since Gabriel appeared to Daniel prior to that in Dan.8 and 9.

Note also per Rev.12:7 and Dan.12:1, it will be Archangel Michael that makes a 'stand', fights with his angels against Satan and his angels, and thus Satan and his are kicked out of the heavenly dimension down to this earth for the end (Rev.12:7-17). Also, when Jesus returns, it will be Archangel Michael that will put Satan in chains and lock him in his pit prison for Christ's "thousand years" reign, per Rev.20. All that gives more weight to this being about Archangel Michael that is doing the 'withholding' of the "man of sin", which is actually pointing to his withholding Satan himself until it is time for Satan to be cast out heaven down to this earth to play the false-Christ.


2 Thess.2:7
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

That "mystery of iniquity" is about the "tares" concept that Jesus taught in Matthew 13. It was first mentioned by God in Genesis 3:15 about the two 'seeds', i.e., Satan's children that he sowed, vs. God's children that Christ sowed, and how God set enmity between them. The "tares" are shown with the "workers of iniquity" phrase in Old Testament Scripture (see Isaiah 5:18-19, of their haughtiness and love of sin; the idea there is how they use a cart rope to pull a cart full of their sins around like for show-and-tell; they even tempt GOD Himself with daring Him to bring-it-on).

The many doctrines of men created to point to many other ideas instead of that "workers of iniquity" idea only shows how those preachers have not really studied their Old Testament Scriptures; sad that is, but it's a way you can know how well studied in The Bible your preacher is.

In 1 John 2:18, the "many antichrists" is that same "mystery of iniquity" idea that Paul mentioned. In Matthew 24:5 it's those "many" that come claiming to be Christ (which don't have the power of miracles like the actual "man of sin" false-Christ will have). All those are about Satan's children of the "tares" in Christ's parable of Matthew 13.

So the one who will be taken out of the way, that is withholding the coming false-Christ right now, i.e., the Archangel Michael, will let the "man of sin" loose when Satan with his angels are cast out of the Heavenly dimension, down to earth in OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight. Per Isaiah 14, Satan also has the outward image of a 'man'. So don't let Satan's workers on earth confuse you saying that the image of 'man' can only mean one in a flesh body, because the image of 'man' originated from God's Own Image Likeness per Genesis 1. And all the angels have that image of man also.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

Can't get any more solid than the above timing when Jesus will come according to Apostle Paul. Jesus at His ONLY coming will destroy... that man of sin by the "spirit of His mouth" and "with the brightness of His coming". That means, that false-Christ MUST come first, prior to Jesus' coming to gather us. And do remember, that Paul started off this Chapter with both events happening at the SAME time, Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church.


9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

There's the same warning Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse about the pseudo-Christ coming to work great signs and wonders so powerful in deception that IF it were possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect (Matthew 24:23-26). This 2 Thess.2 Chapter is thus about a SINGULAR false-Christ coming first, not many that false preachers try to claim. And that means the one Jesus was pointing to in the Matt.24:23-26 is also definitely about a SINGULAR false-Christ.


10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Those who are deceived away from Apostle Paul's simple teaching here about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church AFTER... that false-Christ "man of sin" comes first, means they simply did not receive the LOVE OF THE TRUTH.

What does that mean, to receive the LOVE of the Truth? It means that each believer on Jesus Christ will make the effort to study His Word for theirself, as per their ability. Just about every people in the world has access to God's written Word in their own language of birth, and then with the advent of the Internet, that capability is expanded even further in that ability. The only thing that would prevent that Bible study is lack of education. But the field of education in most nations has increased too, making study more possible. But how many actually open up The Word of God for theirself and ask God through His Son for understanding in it? How many instead just rely on their preacher to save them instead? If we receive the LOVE of the Truth, that means we each will seek out that Truth, listening to God in His Word, checking our teachers out in His Word.


11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Those who just let some man tell them what The Bible says, instead of verifying for theirselves, can... be subject to that "strong delusion" if they aren't careful. God allows the many untruths out there, especially as we get closer to the end of this world. He doesn't allow the "mystery of iniquity" to work deception because He wants us to fail, but because He loves those of His that listen to Him in His Word, and not to Satan's workers. God is using Satan and his workers to do some pruning of the 'dead branches', that's all. Do you want to be pruned like a 'dead branch' suffering the coming "strong delusion" of the false-Christ which comes first, or are you prepared to take up your cross in Christ Jesus waiting for His coming afterwards to destroy that false one? Each person must choose.


12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Are the things of this world more important to you than the Salvation of your 'soul'? Are you of the type that listens to the false Prosperity gospel ministers out there which misteach God's written Word? Are you that lazy that you won't study God's Word for yourself, chapter by chapter, line upon line, and instead would rather listen to some TV preacher who demands you send them all your money? Do you send your money to a TV preacher that goes up in a university penthouse tower and claims he is not coming down until he receives $8 million dollars in donations?


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Through "belief of the truth" Paul said; just WHAT truth is that he means? God's Truth in His written Word. Do you have a Bible to take with you to Church? Do you open it and compare it to what your preacher is teaching? Do you even attend a Church that teaches The Bible from Genesis all the way through to the end of Revelation? How far must you go to find a Church like that? Not being able to find a Church that teaches Bible like that in your area, doesn't that convince you that you should be religiously studying God's Word yourself?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, I think you do a great job pointing out that we as Christians are to await the 2nd Coming, which takes place AFTER the reign of Antichrist. I think 2 Thes 2 goes even farther to say that we await a Coming that is designed to *destroy Antichrist.*

So there is no debate about it, as far as I'm concerned. Christ is coming for his Church AFTER Antichrist rules. Then Christ will come to *destroy him!*

You may be weakening your very solid argument here by arguing other pieces of this picture, such as who is the "Restrainer?," and what is the "Temple" Antichrist will sit in? However, you do make a strong case for Postribulationism, which historically has been the primary position in the Church up until John Darby introduced Dispensationalism and its Pretrib Rapture theory.

A lot of young Christians today do not know the history of Dispensationalism, and don't realize how controversial Darby was in the Church in his time. He was introducing something quite new and unrecognized in Church history. But I think it held not because of Pretrib Teaching, but rather, because of his view on Futurism, which was becoming popular among Christians.

Thank you for a solid effort. Who knows if Dispensationalists will listen? My experience after several decades of arguing this is that Christians raised in Dispensationalism don't care to study the Scriptures for themselves. Instead they go to their denomination and teachers to confirm what they want to believe.

 

[GISMYS_7]

NEXT comes==The rapture "caching up" of born again believers that are looking for the rapture then comes the great tribulation and the antichrist then Jesus returns to earth to defeat all evil and gather all born again believers the dead then those living to be with him in the New Jerusalem here on the new renewed earth for eternity!!! where will you be???

 

[Davy]

Yes, I think you do a great job pointing out that we as Christians are to await the 2nd Coming, which takes place AFTER the reign of Antichrist. I think 2 Thes 2 goes even farther to say that we await a Coming that is designed to *destroy Antichrist.*

So there is no debate about it, as far as I'm concerned. Christ is coming for his Church AFTER Antichrist rules. Then Christ will come to *destroy him!*

Yep! Apostle Paul made that point very clear.

You may be weakening your very solid argument here by arguing other pieces of this picture, such as who is the "Restrainer?," and what is the "Temple" Antichrist will sit in? However, you do make a strong case for Postribulationism, which historically has been the primary position in the Church up until John Darby introduced Dispensationalism and its Pretrib Rapture theory.

I disagree with your idea of 'weakening'. And especially with Paul's "temple of God" pointer which can NEVER point to Christ's Church of The Spirit.

I'm well aware of how some Preterists and Historicists try use that "temple of God" phrase by Paul to point to a pope sitting over Christ's Church, but like I have said elsewhere, a Church 'physical' building is NOT what the Spiritual Temple of The Holy Spirit is about. Trying to claim it is means one does not understand the difference between flesh and Spirit. The Spiritual Temple in Christ can not be corrupted by a pope, nor any man, nor Satan, nor any angel, for that would mean Jesus Christ Himself could be corrupted.

So make sure you understand this matter about Christ's Spiritual Temple ain't about Rome and the Catholic Church, nor any physical place on earth. Thus "the temple of God" Paul mentions is about that "man of sin" appearing in JERUSALEM for the end, in a newly built Jewish 3rd stone temple. And many of today's Orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem already have the materials ready to build it.

A lot of young Christians today do not know the history of Dispensationalism, and don't realize how controversial Darby was in the Church in his time. He was introducing something quite new and unrecognized in Church history. But I think it held not because of Pretrib Teaching, but rather, because of his view on Futurism, which was becoming popular among Christians.

God showed by His rebuke against those who preach to fly away to save one's soul in the Ezekiel 13 chapter. What might that reveal in relation to why... the false Pre-trib Rapture would be a doctrine preached in the last days? Simple to me, that God was warning about the fly away doctrine for His that listen to Him in the last days. Just how many would notice His warning about it in that Old Testament Ezekiel 13 Chapter? Not that many. Yet He warned His. So evidently, God is going to use that doctrine to do a bunch of 'pruning' for the end.

Thank you for a solid effort. Who knows if Dispensationalists will listen? My experience after several decades of arguing this is that Christians raised in Dispensationalism don't care to study the Scriptures for themselves. Instead they go to their denomination and teachers to confirm what they want to believe.

All seminary categories do that same things. It ain't just the fly away crowd only.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I disagree with your idea of 'weakening'. And especially with Paul's "temple of God" pointer which can NEVER point to Christ's Church of The Spirit.

You may disagree, but none of what I said was challenging your views on these things, whether the "Restrainer" or the "Temple." You could be right.

My point is that the more you add to your central argument, the more you provide opportunity for readers to ignore it and then to focus on the more peripheral matters. My suggestion is that you reduce your main argument to size and focus, so that detractors cannot ignore the main gist of your argument. Then deal with the peripheral issues in a separate post. But certainly, do as you feel led.

Your main argument is strong, and I do not wish others to shuck that aside. I wouldn't give them anything else to re-focus their attention on.

Also, size matters. If you unnecessarily extend a single post, you will lose some readers. Your argument is strong, and I don't wish it to be weakened in any way.

If I'm wrong, fine. I just want you to know I'm on your side on this.

 

[Davy]

You may disagree, but none of what I said was challenging your views on these things, whether the "Restrainer" or the "Temple." You could be right.

My point is that the more you add to your central argument, the more you provide opportunity for readers to ignore it and then to focus on the more peripheral matters. My suggestion is that you reduce your main argument to size and focus, so that detractors cannot ignore the main gist of your argument. Then deal with the peripheral issues in a separate post. But certainly, do as you feel led.

Your main argument is strong, and I do not wish others to shuck that aside. I wouldn't give them anything else to re-focus their attention on.

Also, size matters. If you unnecessarily extend a single post, you will lose some readers. Your argument is strong, and I don't wish it to be weakened in any way.

If I'm wrong, fine. I just want you to know I'm on your side on this.

The reader may regard it or not. Either way I do not care. And nor do I agree with you that my covering those Scripture parts by Paul about the one who withholdeth and the mystery of iniquity are of lesser importance. Some will understand, others may not yet. Still God did not hide the parts of His Word that are hard to understand, even as Apostle Peter said about certain things in Paul's Epistles.

 

[rockytopva]

Noting the key word, "revealed."

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Revealed - apokalyptō - To take off the cover, i.e. disclose:—reveal.

Or.... Something that will happen very early in his rule.

 

[GISMYS_7]

NEXT big event we will soon see==The rapture "caching up" of born again believers that are looking for the rapture then comes the great tribulation and the antichrist then Jesus returns to earth to defeat all evil and gather all born again believers the dead then those living to be with him in the New Jerusalem here on the new renewed earth for eternity!!! God's home will be here with us ==where will you be???

 

[marks]

Those in Christ really should not have difficulty with understanding that Lord Jesus returns in the future after... the great tribulation which He warned us about in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, compared with 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). That is the exact same... timing Apostle Paul also taught about Christ's future return and gathering of the Church per 1 Thess.4:13-17.

Here in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul again makes it plain that the Antichrist ("man of sin") MUST... come first, PRIOR to Christ's future coming and gathering of the Church.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (lit. "has in stood", perfect tense, that is, has come, and remains here)
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (lit. away from standing, that is, departure), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him . . . Don't be troubled by some claiming the Day of the LORD is here.

Why would they be troubled? If in fact they understood that "our gathering together unto Him" were to be AFTER this, then they would simply know it was getting closer, that day they would be gathered.

However, if they understood that this gathering were to occur BEFORE, that would be troubling indeed over reports that the Day of the LORD had come.

"That day shall not come", what day? The Day of the LORD. Except first there come the departure, and the man of sin be revealed. Don't be troubled! The Day of the LORD won't come until the departure come first, and the man of sin revealed. No departure, no revealed man of sin? Not the Day of the LORD.

I've been using "departure" to translate "apostasia", as this is the literal meaning of the word. The one other time it's used in the NT is Acts, 21, the accusation that Paul was teaching "departure from Moses". Apostasia was used for rebellion against authority, but it also still meant departure. In answering which sense should be understood here, I'd point out that Paul wrote, Don't you remember that I told you about this?

Do we have any evidence of which sense Paul had instructed them about, whether spiritual apostacy, or a more literal departure? In his first letter to this church, Paul wrote about the departure of all who are "in Christ", whether alive or asleep, to depart and be forevermore with Christ.

What about "spiritual apostacy"? There isn't any teaching regarding that in Paul's first letter to them. This is a specific "apostasia". Can we find a specific rebellion to which this may refer? How would you know it had happened? There has been spiritual rebellion from the beginning. However, the departure is a specific event that will happen at a certain time. Paul here is specifying that time to be prior to the Day of the LORD.

Much love!

 

[Stash]

The restrainer has Satan and his fallen angels locked up in chains in heaven right now

The restrainer seems to be archangel, Micheal

Once YHVH decides it is time
Woe to the world.

Will we notice that when it happens?

Will there be signs in the sky like may be a UFO?

It seems like the world is waiting for a UFO
President Reagan mentioned it
The patriot movement says the Deep Stare last card will be the alien invasion card
Q mentions a sky event

Somebody trying to tell us something?

Expecting the unexpected
Always watching

 

[Randy Kluth]

The reader may regard it or not. Either way I do not care. And nor do I agree with you that my covering those Scripture parts by Paul about the one who withholdeth and the mystery of iniquity are of lesser importance. Some will understand, others may not yet. Still God did not hide the parts of His Word that are hard to understand, even as Apostle Peter said about certain things in Paul's Epistles.

I did not say some parts were of lesser importance. I was saying that when you make a central argument, you should focus on that, instead of trying to deal with all of the peripheral arguments that surround it. Again, do as you feel led.

 

[Douggg]

Noting the key word, "revealed."

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Revealed - apokalyptō - To take off the cover, i.e. disclose:—reveal.

Or.... Something that will happen very early in his rule.

Yes, the key word is "revealed". Revealed as the man of sin. Not revealed as the Antichrist.

Before revealing himself as the man of sin, he will be the Antichrist, perceived King of Israel messiah by the Jews.

All the talk about Darby, dispensationalism, etc, some posters constantly bring up - but don't understand the basics. The basics are the person goes through five sequential stages before his end in the lake of fire.


1. as the little horn, (as king 7), leader over ten EU leaders.
2. then as the prince who shall come following the Gog/Magog event.
3. then as the Antichrist,temporary King of Israel thought-to-be messiah, by the Jews.
4. then as the revealed man of sin, who claims to have achieved God-hood, end of his time as the Antichrist - phony King of Israel.
5. then as the beast-king (king 8), who is killed for his God-hood claim, but comes back to life as the beast - to be the dictator of the EU.

 

[Truth7t7]

the Archangel Michael, will let the "man of sin" loose when Satan with his angels are cast out of the Heavenly dimension, down to earth in OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight.

Sorry Davy Satan isn't in heaven presently as you suggest, he was cast out of heaven long ago

Satan was on the earth to tempt Jesus 40 days and nights, Satan isn't omni present

Jesus was speaking "past tense" below, prior to his earthly ministry long ago

Luke 10:18KJV
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Luke 10:18KJV
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

The question is what heaven did Christ talk about here, humm?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, the key word is "revealed". Revealed as the man of sin. Not revealed as the Antichrist.

Wrong. Read again:

2Th 2:3-4
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What you do NOT understand is that God did not talk about one man being revealed someday. Rather it talks about the MANIFESTATION of the POWER of Satan in the lawlessness of man, revealed in the falling away of the corporate church, as we are truly seeing this happening today! I read NOTHING about the economic, political, and physical welfare of nations. Apostasy is the name of Satan's game!

The son of perdition is a title applied to no one else but Judas, the child of Satan and betrayer of Christ (John 17:12) illustrating the sinful man, or man of sin, comes directly from the ranks of the saints. This portends or serves as a warning or sign of the soon coming of Christ. That is, traitors, the perfidious, the unfaithful in the church. Antichrists that usurp the authority of the Christ of the Bible to themselves and their leaders. In a phrase, false Christs seated in the Temple of God ruling as if they were God. This is the end time scenario that Dispensationalists miss in their zeal to follow in the footsteps of the fallen messengers of Israel in looking for an earthly kingdom and reign.

Before revealing himself as the man of sin, he will be the Antichrist, perceived King of Israel messiah by the Jews.

Sigh!!! That is your faulty theory and interpreation. God did not say that! King of Israel?

No, with God's restraining hand being removed, we can see the power of Satan being revealed in more and more false prophets and christs who pretend to be god (by claim that they got the power from God) in the temple (church). This is the rise of false prophets and christs God is talking about. Not your fantasy supernatural one man.

1. as the little horn, (as king 7), leader over ten EU leaders.

No, the little horn is a power for a short season that spirit Satan will have after God's restraining hand has been removed.

2. then as the prince who shall come following the Gog/Magog event.

No, the prince who shall come of Daniel 9:26 is Jesus Christ, and his people the Jews, the congregation of Israel at that time.

3. then as the Antichrist,temporary King of Israel thought-to-be messiah, by the Jews.

There will be no "thee" antichrist as of one who you believe will be the "king of Israel" in the future. You got everything about "antichrist" all wrong.

4. then as the revealed man of sin, who claims to have achieved God-hood, end of his time as the Antichrist - phony King of Israel.

See, here is your flawed theory, the "revealed man of sin" as of one who claim to have "God-hood" LOL. No, the "revealed man of sin" is false prophets and christs that the power of Satan has manifested in.

5. then as the beast-king (king 8), who is killed for his God-hood claim, but comes back to life as the beast - to be the dictator of the EU.

No such thing as "beast-king." The beast is a kingdom... a body of unbelievers. Not one man.

Sorry Douggg and Davy, your dispensational view of the end times reads like a bad apocalyptic movie script that has absolutely nothing to do with "Biblical" prophecy of the end times.

@covenantee

 

[Davy]

Why would they be troubled? If in fact they understood that "our gathering together unto Him" were to be AFTER this, then they would simply know it was getting closer, that day they would be gathered.

That was just it, they DID NOT understand that Christ comes AFTER the "great tribulation". And that is the point Apostle Paul was clearing up for them, showing that the "man of sin" and the great apostasy MUST happen FIRST.

However, if they understood that this gathering were to occur BEFORE, that would be troubling indeed over reports that the Day of the LORD had come.

Paul showed them the great apostasy and the "man of sin" MUST come first, and even that false one will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming afterwards.

So what false idea would be the OPPOSITE of that? The false idea that Jesus comes PRIOR to what Paul taught. So what doctrine would that be? A doctrine like man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

 

[Davy]

I did not say some parts were of lesser importance. I was saying that when you make a central argument, you should focus on that, instead of trying to deal with all of the peripheral arguments that surround it. Again, do as you feel led.

Nah... what you are actually trying to say, is to stick to a particular LINE of SEMINARY TEACHING OF MAN, and not treat God's written Word as its own AUTHORITY. That is something I'm always... wary of.

A central argument is just a theory taught by universities, it's not something that can be used to 'organize' Biblical themes, which is what you are suggesting. Bible Scripture can move between different timelines very quickly, so when it may seem to you, that it is leaving the 'central theme', it really is not. And if you are not able to recognize what the actual Scripture 'link' is about when that happens in Scripture, then it reveals you have yet to fully understand what all the Scripture is pointing to.

For example, In Genesis 3 we are shown the fall of the man, Eve and Adam disobeying God. And then God giving out His judgements and punishment for it. But God in that Genesis 3 Chapter didn't bother to cover just who that "serpent" in His Garden really was. But He did in the Revelation 12:9 Scripture, in a totally separate Book of His Word. Likewise, in Genesis we are not shown how Satan as "that old serpent" got into that position as adversary in His Garden tempting Eve. But in the Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 Scripture we are shown that Satan was created as a covering cherub (to guard God's Throne), and that he was originally perfect in his ways, until he coveted God's Throne, and wanted to be The GOD. Once again, that revelation is in 2 more separate Books of The Bible.

Therefore, sorry, man's university ideas about "central argument" doesn't really work when covering God's Word as written. That is why Apostle Paul told Timothy to 'rightly divide' The Word. It's about recognizing when timeline in Bible Scripture moves to different times and events. And it sometimes happens within just a few verses, like the Rev.12:1-5 verses do.

 

[Davy]

Sorry Davy Satan isn't in heaven presently as you suggest, he was cast out of heaven long ago

1 Peter 5:8
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
KJV

Read your Bible much?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nah... what you are actually trying to say, is to stick to a particular LINE of SEMINARY TEACHING OF MAN, and not treat God's written Word as its own AUTHORITY. That is something I'm always... wary of.

A central argument is just a theory taught by universities, it's not something that can be used to 'organize' Biblical themes, which is what you are suggesting. Bible Scripture can move between different timelines very quickly, so when it may seem to you, that it is leaving the 'central theme', it really is not. And if you are not able to recognize what the actual Scripture 'link' is about when that happens in Scripture, then it reveals you have yet to fully understand what all the Scripture is pointing to.

For example, In Genesis 3 we are shown the fall of the man, Eve and Adam disobeying God. And then God giving out His judgements and punishment for it. But God in that Genesis 3 Chapter didn't bother to cover just who that "serpent" in His Garden really was. But He did in the Revelation 12:9 Scripture, in a totally separate Book of His Word. Likewise, in Genesis we are not shown how Satan as "that old serpent" got into that position as adversary in His Garden tempting Eve. But in the Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 Scripture we are shown that Satan was created as a covering cherub (to guard God's Throne), and that he was originally perfect in his ways, until he coveted God's Throne, and wanted to be The GOD. Once again, that revelation is in 2 more separate Books of The Bible.

Therefore, sorry, man's university ideas about "central argument" doesn't really work when covering God's Word as written. That is why Apostle Paul told Timothy to 'rightly divide' The Word. It's about recognizing when timeline in Bible Scripture moves to different times and events. And it sometimes happens within just a few verses, like the Rev.12:1-5 verses do.

No, I was talking about a strategy for trying to get people to focus on one central argument at a time--not prioritizing which argument is more important than another. And it has nothing to do with seminaries. We've lost the argument completely at this point.