Whatever happened to the simple Gospel message on salvation and heaven and hell?

[bbyrd009]

How can a person debunk a myth or even raise serious doubts about something believed so deeply for so long by so many? Do we have a better reason to believe in his existence as a separate entity than we do for believing in the overweight elf with the white beard who wears a red and white suit and rides a sleigh through the sky pulled by 8 flying reindeer apparently once a year?

bazinga

 

[Mayflower]

ok, how 'bout throwing death into it, that make sense too?
a logical interpretation will always fail one at some point, only they just disregard that part, see

I agree with Jesusisfaithful mentioning that death is swallowed up in victory. And with Dcopy that said that it is both a physical and spiritual death.

 

[Mayflower]

bazinga

Lololol. I love Great Bang Theory. I don't agree with you, but love the quote.

 

[bbyrd009]

i have no objection if you guys want to wait for Jesus to come and save you again, ok
but i would contemplate thief in the night a bit more wadr

 

[Helen]

i certainly agree with most of that, i did not mean to say anything about no consequences for sin, i said Gehenna is on Erets. And as shocking as this might read, there is no hell, or at least not in the Bible. Tartarus is as close as we get (another Greek god btw) and ppl do not go there anyway. But understand that i believe the wages of sin is still death, and you reap what you sow, etc. The Rich Man is in fire, and he seeks a drop of "water" for his "tongue?"

Our concept of hell came from scribes, and subsists on blind willfulness imo
bc "believers" need a place for others to go, to legitimize their corrupted perspective of heaven as a place

all go to the same place
the dead know nothing
"you and your sons will be here with me"

now i'm not claiming to know what we will become, we could all be in a furnace, figuratively speaking, or it could be sunshine/lollipops/rainbows for everyone, but the unrebounded ("unrepentant" to...most) are just miserable anyway, maybe bc their "tongue" (fire) does not allow them to operate right, i dunno. No one knows. Anyone who tells you they know is lying, and also deceitful, whether they mean to be or not.

Yes, good one!

 

[Helen]

@Mayflower

"Death and hell " which are thrown in too...and not "substance things" so how can they be thrown in.." Amazing how people read it and always take it literally

People to so easily and sinner burning forever and ever. Have you ever taken time to study "ever and ever" ?

Just wondering. Or maybe just getting you to think.

 

[Mayflower]

@Mayflower

"Death and hell " which are thrown in too...and not "substance things" so how can they be thrown in.." Amazing how people read it and always take it literally

People to so easily and sinner burning forever and ever. Have you ever taken time to study "ever and ever" ?

Just wondering. Or maybe just getting you to think.

Isn't this talking about Sheol though? Sheol cast into Hell. From what I understand, is that is where the people before Christ went. Like a holding place. Like the parable where the man named Lazarus and the rich man died. The rich man went to Sheol and Lazarus went into Paradise (bosom of Abraham). Since this is the only parable Jesus mentions any names from what I know, it leaves me thinking more on its importance...

"Death and Hell" thrown into the Lake of Fire I thought meant Sheol and the dead already residing there. Like a worse place.

What do y'all believe these scriptures mean? It is interesting, because we were just discussing Heaven and Hell in our life group we go to on Thursday nights as to why people don't believe in Heaven and Hell.

I can definitely see why people would want to believe in Heaven but not Hell. But where God is, sin cannot be. So what do y'all believe for those who don't trust in Christ as Savior? Where do they go?

And yeh, sure does make me think. I don't know much Greek and Hebrew and stuff to study forever and ever and ever. I sort of am working on Alef, Bet, Gimel, Dalet. But have no understanding just yet. Lol

 

[Mayflower]

ok, how 'bout throwing death into it, that make sense too?
a logical interpretation will always fail one at some point, only they just disregard that part, see

After reading what Bygrace wrote I think I see the point you are trying to make. I think Death is not just symbolic. Hell gave up the dead for everyone to be judged according to their works, and then death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire...

. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20 NKJV

 

[Helen]

But where God is, sin cannot be.

Hello my friend
That again is a line that we were taught and accepted. I did ..but when we weight it , it doesn't make sense.
People say " God cannot look at sin."
Sound very wise.

So the "where God is, sin cannot be.."..just think on it.
Sin abounds..and when you are on your knees before Him, does He have fellowship with you?

• 1 John 8 says..." If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us " So how in earth do the people who first taught us that , believe that God speaks to any man! How does He " draw the sinner to Himself? " If He cannot be where sin is, or sin be where His is? Because He is everywhere!!! Its good to think on these things, and really read the bible in balance...and, if we can..with an open heart willing for God to show us things and challenge us in what we chose to believe. If what we believe is solid truth..wonderful...then it will stand up when we test it. ( Not sure where these black dots came from! LOL )
• 
  
• Bless you...Helen

 

[Enoch111]

"Death and Hell" thrown into the Lake of Fire I thought meant Sheol and the dead already residing there. Like a worse place.

Death and Hades (mistakenly called "hell) are personified in Revelation. They are shown riding on a pale horse in Rev 6:8, and they are again personified in Rev 20:13,14. So what does the latter passage really mean in the context of the Lake of Fire (the true Hell, also called Gehenna)?

First we read "and death and hell (Hades) delivered up the dead which were in them". Then we read "And death and hell (Hades) were cast into the lake of fire".

1. So the first thing to understand is that the Lake of Fire is the ultimate destiny and destination of all the souls who are unsaved and therefore not found in the Lamb's Book of Life (v 15).

2. Death "delivering up the dead" simply means that all the unsaved dead from wherever they are found enter into the resurrection of damnation before the Great White Throne (v. 12). The unsaved dead are resurrected before being cast into the Lake of Fire.

3. Hades "delivering up the dead" means that the souls and spirits of the unsaved dead come out of Hades (which is in the heart of the earth) and are joined to their bodies at this resurrection of the unjust.

3. Since death is abolished at this point, and Hades is not necessary for the same reason, death and Hades are metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire. God is finished with death on earth and Hades in the heart of the earth.

 

[Mayflower]

Hello my friend
That again is a line that we were taught and accepted. I did ..but when we weight it , it doesn't make sense.
People say " God cannot look at sin."
Sound very wise.

So the "where God is, sin cannot be.."..just think on it.
Sin abounds..and when you are on your knees before Him, does He have fellowship with you?

• 1 John 8 says..." If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us " So how in earth do the people who first taught us that , believe that God speaks to any man! How does He " draw the sinner to Himself? " If He cannot be where sin is, or sin be where His is? Because He is everywhere!!! Its good to think on these things, and really read the bible in balance...and, if we can..with an open heart willing for God to show us things and challenge us in what we chose to believe. If what we believe is solid truth..wonderful...then it will stand up when we test it. ( Not sure where these black dots came from! LOL )
• 
  
• Bless you...Helen

Oh wow! That is awesome! I didn't think about that. There was another saying too I learned that someone really woke me up on, but I can't remember right now.

But yeh! I see your point. Now if we are in sin, we cannot have fellowship with God, but God is everywhere!

Except now I am a little confused, because the Father turned His head when Jesus was on the cross...and I don't imagine God being in Hell with those who do not believe in Him. God IS Omnipresent.

 

[Mayflower]

Father turns His head away. :doh: duh lol
@"ByGrace" thanks! I am going to be careful wording that from now on.

 

[Mayflower]

3. Hades "delivering up the dead" means that the souls and spirits of the unsaved dead come out of Hades (which is in the heart of the earth) and are joined to their bodies at this resurrection of the unjust.

3. Since death is abolished at this point, and Hades is not necessary for the same reason, death and Hades are metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire. God is finished with death on earth and Hades in the heart of the earth.

I have understood this as the "Second Death"

 

[Enoch111]

I have understood this as the "Second Death"

The second death applies to those who are not children of God. Death means separation. The first death is separation of the soul and spirit from the body. The second death is eternal separation form God in eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire. So "the second death" is really a reference to the Lake of Fire and how it will affect those who have been consigned to it. See Rev 14:9-11 and Rev 21:8.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2288: θάνατος (death)
1. properly, the death of the body, i. e. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul from the body by which the life on earth is ended:...

3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell is called — now simply θάνατος, Romans 1:32 (Wis. 1:12f Wis. 2:24; Tatian or. ad Graec. c. 13; the author of the epistle ad Diognet. c. 10, 7 [ET] distinguishes between ὁ δοκῶν ἐνθάδε θάνατος, the death of the body,and ὁ ὄντως θάνατος, ὅςφυλάσσεται τοῖς κατακριθησομενοις εἰςτό πῦρ τό αἰώνιον); now ὁ δεύτεροςθάνατος and ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερος (as opposed to the former death, i. e. to that by which life on earth is ended), Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6, 14b; Revelation 21:8

 

[Mayflower]

The second death applies to those who are not children of God. Death means separation. The first death is separation of the soul and spirit from the body. The second death is eternal separation form God in eternal conscious torment in the Lake of Fire. So "the second death" is really a reference to the Lake of Fire and how it will affect those who have been consigned to it. See Rev 14:9-11 and Rev 21:8.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2288: θάνατος (death)
1. properly, the death of the body, i. e. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul from the body by which the life on earth is ended:...

3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell is called — now simply θάνατος, Romans 1:32 (Wis. 1:12f Wis. 2:24; Tatian or. ad Graec. c. 13; the author of the epistle ad Diognet. c. 10, 7 [ET] distinguishes between ὁ δοκῶν ἐνθάδε θάνατος, the death of the body,and ὁ ὄντως θάνατος, ὅςφυλάσσεται τοῖς κατακριθησομενοις εἰςτό πῦρ τό αἰώνιον); now ὁ δεύτεροςθάνατος and ὁ θάνατος ὁ δεύτερος (as opposed to the former death, i. e. to that by which life on earth is ended), Revelation 2:11; Revelation 20:6, 14b; Revelation 21:8

Okay. I hear what you are saying. I got confused when you said death will be abolished, so death and Hades are metaphorically cast into the Lake of Fire.

I believe This is literal, because those judged without Christ, are cast into Hell, (Second Death) along with Hades.

Thought provoking stuff! That is Greek to me. Really neat to look at.

 

[bbyrd009]

Except now I am a little confused, because the Father turned His head when Jesus was on the cross

can you Quote that?
ah, i see maybe you got some Rev there? God didn't turn from the First Adam's sin, why would He turn for the second
this was invented to fit preconceived premises, to make the agenda work

 

[bbyrd009]

13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man.

 

[bbyrd009]

Edom (Adam) denies his birthright
and identifies with Jacob, the deceiver

 

[bbyrd009]

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

anyone narcissistic and useless enough is avoided by all of his fellows and cut off. He might even become a billionaire, and might possibly not even suicide, but unless he changes his mind the last part won't matter anyway. Understand I AM, and put the right context on Revelations, and the statement gets clearer imo. You are reading about an event that might happen in real-time, not in some imagined future. Happened yesterday, happening today, will happen tomorrow. "anyone who does not pursue what brings life will experience death." meaning the walking dead

 

[amadeus]

Oh wow! That is awesome! I didn't think about that. There was another saying too I learned that someone really woke me up on, but I can't remember right now.

But yeh! I see your point. Now if we are in sin, we cannot have fellowship with God, but God is everywhere!

Except now I am a little confused, because the Father turned His head when Jesus was on the cross...and I don't imagine God being in Hell with those who do not believe in Him. God IS Omnipresent.

Where is it that Jesus came from? And where is it that he came to?

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13 Hmmm? Where is heaven?

When Jesus "came down" was that not down to man's level? Where is man in his flesh, but in death? Our first carnal parents died when they sinned. We were born to dead parents so are we not also dead... until we have received the Life that Jesus is?

But Jesus brought that Life to us in our place of death, in our "hell". Coming to where he could suffer as a man did he not come into the very death of men even though He was not dead? Is that a quandary?

So where then is Jesus now?

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

Where is God?