Whatever happened to the simple Gospel message on salvation and heaven and hell?

[bbyrd009]

Addressing one who doesn't listen is a waste of time.

go with that then, i don't condemn you. Imo you are "convicting" yourself as you speak, but there is no judgement for beliefs that i can find.

So now, where have i not listened, v where are you ignoring me?
i have done my best to address every alert, can you say the same?

i understand that all of what you have been taught about the future/afterlife is being questioned here ok;
let's at least admit that the truth is not going to change, no matter what we decide here today.
you are allowed to examine your premises if you want to.

 

[bbyrd009]

You are here for entertainment and killing time.

i'm here to give you an opportunity to save your life, as i hope mine will be saved, and i am 5 minutes late for somewhere else right now Triumph. Have a good one k

 

[bbyrd009]

When I look around in churches these days I am amazed
how some women dare to come to church the way they look.
Maybe I'm old fashion.

k hopefully you understand how that reads coming from a guy dressed for a pimp cowboy funeral v "always wearing white" k
you might wanna do some of that glass houses/stones deal

and you might reflect on your def of "church" there too i guess

 

[Mayflower]

i certainly agree with most of that, i did not mean to say anything about no consequences for sin, i said Gehenna is on Erets. And as shocking as this might read, there is no hell, or at least not in the Bible. Tartarus is as close as we get (another Greek god btw) and ppl do not go there anyway. But understand the wages of sin is still death, and you reap what you sow, etc. The Rich Man is in fire, and he seeks a drop of "water" for his "tongue?"

Our concept of hell came from scribes, and subsists on blind willfulness imo
bc "believers" need a place for others to go, to legitimize their corrupted perspective of heaven as a place

all go to the same place
the dead know nothing
"you and your sons will be here with me"

now i'm not claiming to know what we will become, we could all be in a furnace, figuratively speaking, or it could be sunshine/lollipops/rainbows for everyone, but the unrebounded ("unrepentant" to...most) are just miserable anyway, maybe bc their "tongue" (fire) does not allow them to operate right, i dunno. No one knows. Anyone who tells you they know is lying, and also deceitful, whether they mean to be or not. satan appears as an angel of light. i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock

My sister is Jewish and she said in the Hebrew that Hell was actually reliving the experiences and feeling guilt and remorse for decisions made a lot worse. I never heard of that before.

But I believe in an actual Sheol and an actual Hell, and here is why:

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:7‭-‬15 NKJV


Lake of fire and brimstone sounds pretty clear cut to me...

 

[bbyrd009]

My sister is Jewish and she said in the Hebrew that Hell was actually reliving the experiences and feeling guilt and remorse for decisions made a lot worse. I never heard of that before.

i could direct you to a post where someone is forgiven of an obvious sin, but does not accept the forgiveness, that closely mirrors this imo, yes.

 

[bbyrd009]

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

imo you are accepting a literal interpretation of a figurative and symbolic passage, and all i can really say is that "you learned it first in English."

 

[Mayflower]

imo you are accepting a literal interpretation of a figurative and symbolic passage, and all i can really say is that "you learned it first in English."

Do you know the Greek for this passage for lake of fire?

 

[bbyrd009]

Do you know the Greek for this passage for lake of fire?

where "the devil who had deceived them was thrown?" yes, i'm pretty sure i recall it

 

[bbyrd009]

their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book
of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

see, we are getting a series of dialectic statements thrown at us, and we want to read them logically, but that does not work.
Death even gets thrown into the same lake

 

[bbyrd009]

"
Huddlin' round the captain

The Japhethite believes that the world is essentially bi-polar and results from an eternal battle between the kingdom of light and the kingdom of evil, which are pretty much of equal strength and are similarly organized, both around a kingpin and his minions. This inevitably leads to an us-versus-them thinking, with us (the good guys; enlightened, just and endowed with all the right symbols and regalia) living in the greatest country on earth, and them (the bad guys, a.k.a. the backward barbarians or decrepit evildoers) living in, well, "other" countries.

The Hebrews were into none of that. To the Hebrews it was clear that there is only one set of rules, which they called Dabar-Yahweh or the Word of God and which modern science calls Grand Unified Theory (science and religion don't disagree on the existence of God but on whether He has personhood). This Word of God, the Hebrews figured, applies to everybody (good, bad, believers or ignorazzi) and exists prior to the universe ("prior" on a complexity scale, not a temporal one; time is a product of the universe, not the medium in which it emerged).

In the Hebrew model, the Word exists everywhere and always the same, is sovereign in the universe, and produces everything in the universe, including the biological man and finally human culture. That means that human culture can only become something that accords with natural law, and all other effort is folly and simply won't work. The Word is the only thing all people can ever agree on, the only thing that can ever be accomplished, the only thing that can ever be discovered, and the only thing that can not ever be destroyed.

"Good", simply said, is the working together of all things when all those things have been allowed to develop freely and ultimately. "Evil", therefore, is not some kingdom that counterpoises the kingdom of good, but rather the absence of good in the same way that darkness is the absence of light and not the presence of something else.

To the Hebrews, reality has only one pole and that is the goodness of harmony with natural law. The opposite is not a pole but a chaotic cloud, still centered on that singular, almighty pole! The name Baal-zebub, after all, means "lord of the flies" in which it is understood that flies do not adhere to central rule, don't congregate, don't cooperate, don't produce, don't care for their offspring, aren't armed and spend their times focused on dung and dead things; all this contrary to the bee, which in Hebrew is דברה (deborah), which is the feminine version of the masculine דבר (dabar), hence the phrase "Dabar-YHWH" or "Word of God" (see our article on the name Deborah).

One of the Zeusian Titans was called Prometheus, and he personifies the second and most practical difference between Hebrew and Greek thought..." http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Homer.html#.W1Cqg9JKiUl

 

[bbyrd009]

ah, meant to get this bit in:
"
Journalism is just a genre, and Moses and Homer were not journalists, and although their works consist of words and appear to be similar to a Times column to people who can't really read, they function in a medium that's much more like Bach's music or Rembrandt's paintings, and are dominated by rhythms and repetitions, shapes and compositions. To the chagrin of zappers and folks waiting for their chicken nuggets, the Brandenburg Concertos aren't jam sessions, the Night Watch isn't a photograph, and neither Homer nor Moses produced literary realism..." ibid

 

[bbyrd009]

Lake of fire and brimstone sounds pretty clear cut to me...

ok, how 'bout throwing death into it, that make sense too?
a logical interpretation will always fail one at some point, only they just disregard that part, see

 

[Dcopymope]

their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book
of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

see, we are getting a series of dialectic statements thrown at us, and we want to read them logically, but that does not work.
Death even gets thrown into the same lake

So what exactly about that statement are you not getting, "logically"?? Its not hard at all for me to 'logically' understand it. The curse of death and the grave, aka Hades, or the abode of the dead, along with all names unlisted in the book of life are thrown in the lake of fire, which is the second death. Its describing the day that death is swallowed up in victory once and for all.

 

[bbyrd009]

So what exactly about that statement are you not getting, "logically"?? Its not hard at all for me to 'logically' understand it. The curse of death and the grave, aka Hades, or the abode of the dead, along with all names unlisted in the book of life are thrown in the lake of fire, which is the second death. Its describing the day that death is swallowed up in victory once and for all.

spiritual death, certainly, but physical death, as is so often advanced? Regardless, the point was that allusions are being made that are being taken literally, and small but important phrases are omitted or dropped from Quotes--we see it here all of the time--in order to "fit" Scripture into the logical perspective

 

[Dcopymope]

spiritual death, certainly, but physical death, as is so often advanced? Regardless, the point was that allusions are being made that are being taken literally, and small but important phrases are omitted or dropped from Quotes--we see it here all of the time--in order to "fit" Scripture into the logical perspective

Nothing is being "omitted", that's all in your head. Jesus Christ himself defined the second death as both spiritual & physical in nature. Its not hard to understand, the message is simple, this is just you making it seem like the Bible is rocket science with your strict adherence to allegorical interpretations that is not justified at all by the narrative. The only omitting being done here is your removal of the obvious literal description.

(Matthew 10:28) "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

And in case you are wondering, the word being used for "hell" here is Gehenna, also the same word used for the Lake of Fire. There is no excuse for any confusion when the message is crystal clear, especially if you are not a novice believer.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur

Anyone whose name was not found written in the book
of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

see, we are getting a series of dialectic statements thrown at us, and we want to read them logically, but that does not work.
Death even gets thrown into the same lake

Death and hell is thrown in that same lake because eventually, Christ Jesus will put everything down under His feet and that literally means nobody will be sinning ever again to incur death nor hell and thus never be separated from God ever again because we all will know what is outside the will of God; nothing good.

And for His promise to those that have eternal life, then His judgment for eternal death has to remain true as well.. and the second death is eternal lake of fire; complete separation from all that is good and God.

I reckon you can look at God speaking someone with a soul into existence and suddenly, he is not? How can God take back His word? So maybe in that sense, is why sinners that never had believed in Him, will burn in the lake of fire forever.

John 3:18-21 assures me that God knows who would receive Him if they had heard the Good News from those that prefer their evil deeds rather than be reproved of them. No one in hell will be able to claim that they would have believed in Him if they had heard the gospel, because God's word stands that all those that seek, will find.

People see that as unfair, but evil needs to be done away with for when God shall establish His kingdom of Heaven for ever where only His goodness dwells

In society, we have jails and death penalties for the unrepentant hardened criminals. Those that believe God is unfair can ask society to release those hardened criminals into their homes to stay for a while; then maybe one can see why God cannot be unfair when society has common sense in dealing with evil.

In any event, for His promises of eternal life and all that is good to remain forever unchanged when Christ puts everything under His feet, then death, hell, Satan and his angels, and all those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are damned to the lake of fire forever as His judgment stands forever too.

 

[amadeus]

the whole developed world pretty much hears the same tired boogeyman story i guess, ya. Google "a red guy with a long pointed tail, horns and a pitchfork" imo, that will get one to the truth right quick. It's Norse/Angle mythology, the closest thing the White, Engyshe scribes had i guess.

But when I heard about it, I know there was no Public Internet to search for the source. It have been available in the public library but I never in those day bothered to look it up.

Supposedly from what I had believed it was based on the Bible. It was a long time before I began to learn for myself just what was in the Bible and what was not. Even reading the Bible myself beginning in 1976 I never saw the details of some very prevalent beliefs about Lucifer and Satan and the Devil in the written scriptures. Someone eventually had to point them out to me.

I did not argue the points then as who was I and what did I know? I know a little more but I still hold way back from admitting that there is a separate devil or satanic entity called at times, Lucifer, nor do I discuss it very much. How can a person debunk a myth or even raise serious doubts about something believed so deeply for so long by so many? Do we have a better reason to believe in his existence as a separate entity than we do for believing in the overweight elf with the white beard who wears a red and white suit and rides a sleigh through the sky pulled by 8 flying reindeer apparently once a year?

 

[bbyrd009]

Its not hard to understand, the message is simple

to the wise i'm sure it is, yes; i guess we even have an explanation along these lines in the Bible. i guess it isn't a sin to read with the understanding one has, hopefully i didn't imply that it was

 

[bbyrd009]

And in case you are wondering, the word being used for "hell" here is Gehenna, also the same word used for the Lake of Fire. There is no excuse for any confusion when the message is crystal clear, especially if you are not a novice believer.

i agree; Gehenna is on Erets however, and i'm pretty sure your concept of "hell" is "in the afterlife" right?

Death and hell is thrown in that same lake because eventually, Christ Jesus will put everything down under His feet and that literally means nobody will be sinning ever again to incur death nor hell and thus never be separated from God ever again

ah yes, ty. An even logical fail, at several points, see? You can't have procreation and no physical death, and "nobody will be sinning ever again" = "no free will." etc

 

[bbyrd009]

when society has common sense in dealing with evil.

hmm, ok