When a believer dies, will he be with God as a sentient being right away?

[O'Darby]

That will be demons trying to deceive people into believeing that dead people are not dead but are still conscious and can communicate with us through mediums (for example). The Scriptures say that the dead are sleeping, i.e. are unconscious and cannot communicate with anybody else.

Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (WEB):

(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.​

Deuteronomy 31:14,16 (WEB):

(14) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, your days approach that you must die. ...​

(16) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers. ...​

2 Samuel 7:12 (WEB):

(12) When your days are fulfilled, and you sleep with your fathers, I will set up your offspring after you, who will ...​

Sorry, but I LAUGH at this sort of perspective. I understand, there are denominations, sects and cults so locked into one-dimensional "Bible only" thinking that vast swaths of ACTUAL HUMAN EXPERIENCE must be assigned to "demons" to preserve the house of cards. Demons here, demons there, demons almost everywhere. What a way to live!

Uh-huh, the After-Death Communications I experienced from my late father, wife and others - which were VITALLY IMPORTANT to my journey of faith - were actually demons. I am so completely undiscerning and so completely lacking in the Holy Spirit that I was deceived. And not only me, but legions of equally undiscerning Christian giants like Dale Allison, Gary Habermas and many others. And not only us, but literally millions of other sane and credible but apparently undiscerning people, believers and nonbelievers alike, who have experienced and reported the same things since the dawn of history. Demons, demons, demons!

What am I going to believe, ACTUAL HUMAN EXPERIENCE, that of myself and millions of others, or 3,000-year-old Bible verses as interpreted by some denomination, sect or cult? Gee, I think I'll go with my lying eyes and brain and trust that I have at least some modicum of spiritual discernment. Enjoy your demon-haunted view of the world if it brings you comfort, but this sort of simple-minded Bibliolatry is not for most of us.

 

[keithr]

I know he is not limited, but you seem to be imposing limits that the scriptures do not support.

I am merely trying to understand what the Scriptures say about our death and resurrection. I'm not saying anything that conflicts with the Scripture, as far as I am aware. You are assuming that nothing remains of us after we have died and that God relies on His memory to recreate us in the resurrection, but the Scriptures don't say that is the case.

OK....is your reasoning sound though?

I think that it is more sound than assuming that God creating a copy of our body and minds means that we will awake from our sleep in death, just like we wake up in the morning after a night's sleep. When we wake up each day we are still the same person; it's just that our minds have been resting and recovering during the sleep. If God creates a living being that is a copy of one that had died, that living being is not the same as the one that lived before (it will be similar but not the same, just like two pencils are similar but they are not the same pencil). The new clone will believe it is the same person, because it will have the same memories, but it won't be the same person. To me, sound reasoning must describe a living being that continues to exist in a sleep like state after death, and which can be awakened out of that sleep so that it can continue living in a conscious state again. If it does not continue to exist after death, then it has perished. After God has resurrected everyone and judged them, then He can choose to destroy those living beings that He determines are not worthy of eternal life - the second death will not result in living beings in a sleeping state again; they will be destroyed.

But the “new earth” that Isaiah and Peter and John spoke about is not a recreation of the planet...it is a recreation of God’s first purpose on this planet, which has no defects at all....it is wicked humanity that is causing all the damage.....that is what will be removed (like it was in Noah’s day).....the earth itself is perfect.

That's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not part of us remains in existence after death (even if that existance is not in the physical universe because it is a spirit existance - existing in other dimensions that we don't currently have access too).

Do we really know what process God uses to recreate people?

No, but I'm saying that it isn't a recreation. I think that resurrection is a reviving of our "spirit" (which does not perish when we die) and being given a new body. We are not immortal, because God can kill/destroy our "spirit", but our "spirit" must continue existing after the body dies and perishes, otherwise we cannot be resurrected.

So were the Jews kept in the dark about death? Or did they know all there was to know until the prospect of heaven was introduced to Christ’s disciples? When would they expect to be resurrected to heaven? All the scriptures point to the fact that they anticipated their time in the grave to be very short...their desire to be with their Lord was very strong.....but according to the apostle Paul, that call to heaven was not to be experienced until “the coming or the Lord” at his return to take them “home”. (1 Thess 4:13-18)

In Old Testament time the Jews were aware of a promised resurrection, or restoration to life, but that was restoration to human life again.

Acts 3:21 (WEB):

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

Acts 23:8 (WEB):

(8) For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess all of these.​

The peospect of a resurrection as spirit beings and going to heaven was only revealed during/after Jesus' ministry. But that is irrelevant to the discussion.

So just because we don’t understand how God will resurrect the dead, doesn’t mean he can’t do as he said he would.....all remain in their graves until it is time to awaken them......including the “saints”, who were to “sleep” until Jesus came back for them. Was any part of them still “alive” except in God’s memory?

They were not alive, but they still existed in a dormant or sleeping state, otherwise they could not be awakened.

 

[keithr]

The Tanakh does not say that...

A Targum is not the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). The Targum is an Aramaic paraphrase/explanation/interpretation of the Hebrew text of the Jewish Scriptures provided by the rabbis in the course of teaching. These paraphrases or explanations were not meant to carry equal authority with the Word of God, and it was normally forbidden to record them in writing, just to make sure that no one would equate them with the written Word of God. However, while writing down the targum was initially prohibited, nevertheless, some targumitic writings appeared as early as the middle of the first century AD.

So as I said:

The Jewish Targum paraphrases this verse as, “The Spirit will return to stand in judgment before God, who gave it thee”. Therefore the Jews seemed to understand the spirit to be the essence of who we are, and not just our breath (our breath can't stand in judgement).​

 

[keithr]

What am I going to believe, ACTUAL HUMAN EXPERIENCE, that of myself and millions of others, or 3,000-year-old Bible verses as interpreted by some denomination, sect or cult? Gee, I think I'll go with my lying eyes and brain and trust that I have at least some modicum of spiritual discernment. Enjoy your demon-haunted view of the world if it brings you comfort, but this sort of simple-minded Bibliolatry is not for most of us.

You should believe the Bible. God forbade consulting of mediums for a reason.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 (WEB):

(10) There shall not be found with you anyone who makes his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices sorcery, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer,​

(11) or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer.​

(12) For whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh. Because of these abominations, Yahweh your God drives them out from before you.​

Leviticus 19:31 (WEB):

(31) “‘Don’t turn to those who are mediums, nor to the wizards. Don’t seek them out, to be defiled by them. I am Yahweh your God.​

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I doubt it.

Jesus resurrected Lazarus in John 11. When Lazarus died, I don't think he went up to heaven to be with God as a conscious acting being. If he did, then Jesus would have to pull him away from God and return him back to his earthly body. When a person dies, he becomes unconscious, and his soul is stored in a secure place.

Precious friend, you must have missed The Biblical study about?:

Confusion of what is death...

Amen.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Precious friend, you must have missed The Biblical study about?:

Can you be more specific? I prefer to argue with precision.

 

[O'Darby]

You should believe the Bible. God forbade consulting of mediums for a reason.

Did anyone say anything about "consulting mediums"? No, they did not. I have never consulted a medium. I would discourage anyone from consulting a medium or otherwise pursuing contact with the dead, If I had any indication that you had the faintest clue as to what you're talking about, I might continue the conversation. But you clearly do not. You're a Bible-verse popcorn machine living in a demon-haunted world of your own making, and I think I could make a pretty good guess at your denominational affiliation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am merely trying to understand what the Scriptures say about our death and resurrection. I'm not saying anything that conflicts with the Scripture, as far as I am aware. You are assuming that nothing remains of us after we have died and that God relies on His memory to recreate us in the resurrection, but the Scriptures don't say that is the case.

Since God does not give us more details than what is contained in his word, anything outside of it is from limited human speculation. Do we really know anything about how God can resurrect a soul who died so long ago that even their bones are now dust? Or someone whose body was eaten by wilds animals, or those who had their bodies incinerated by cremation?

The “spirit” in man “returns to God” as it says in Eccl 12....but this was written to Israel who at that time had no belief in an afterlife of any sort. Resurrection to them was God bringing them back to this life to be reunited with their family and friends....(as Jesus demonstrated with Lazarus and the two others he raised back to life.)

I think that it is more sound than assuming that God creating a copy of our body and minds means that we will awake from our sleep in death, just like we wake up in the morning after a night's sleep. When we wake up each day we are still the same person; it's just that our minds have been resting and recovering during the sleep. If God creates a living being that is a copy of one that had died, that living being is not the same as the one that lived before (it will be similar but not the same, just like tow pencils are similar but they are not the same pencil).

This is your assumption though....when we wake each morning we have no recollection of time during that period unless we woke during the night and had to look at a clock to tell us how long we had slept. Death is just like that.....we might have been sleeping for millenniums, but on awakening, it will be as if we closed our eyes only a moment ago. Time stands still for those in the grave.

You keep saying that it must be a copy.....but a re-creation is not just a copy. If you as a conscious entity remember who you are, and have all your memories restored, how can you not be that same “person” in a new body?

The new clone will believe it is the same person, because it will have the same memories, but it won't be the same person. To me, sound reasoning must describe a living being that continues to exist in a sleep like state after death, and which can be awakened out of that sleep so that it can continue living in a conscious state again. If it does not continue to exist after death, then it has perished.

And that is exactly what Solomon said in Eccl 9:5,6....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.”

All that made that person who they were, including their emotions has “perished”...which in Hebrew means “destroyed”......but only temporarily removed from existence. The promise of a resurrection takes the sting out of death. We know that those we have lost will be returned to us.....they will recognise us as we will recognise them.

After God has resurrected everyone and judged them, then He can choose to destroy those living beings that He determines are not worthy of eternal life - the second death will not result in living beings in a sleeping state again; they will be destroyed.

In the resurrection, there are two classes of people....the righteous, or those who have already proven by their life course that they are genuine worshippers of the true God, past and present.......then there are the unrighteous, which will include those who in the past, did not know God or even about him, being born into foreign cultures who may have been violent conquerors or even violent individuals who never had an opportunity to repent and alter their course in their lifetime. Their ignorance will not be held against them.

But there is a third class.....the wicked, or those who have proven to God that they are incorrigible in their disobedience, and opposition to God’s will and purpose.....Jesus condemned the Pharisees to “Gehenna” for exactly that. Seeing the operation of God’s spirit in Jesus’ ministry and attributing his power to the devil....and then orchestrating his murder.....they had no excuse. They committed the “unforgivable sin”. Only God and his son know who will remain in “Gehenna”....which is eternal death, with no hope of a resurrection.

No, but I'm saying that it isn't a recreation. I think that resurrection is a reviving of our "spirit" (which does not perish when we die) and being given a new body. We are not immortal, because God can kill/destroy our "spirit", but our "spirit" must continue existing after the body dies and perishes, otherwise we cannot be resurrected.

Since God does not tell us HOW he restores life to those whom he resurrects, again you are relying on speculation to make your assessments. I trust that God knows what he is doing and has promised a return to life for those in sheol.....it is a return to this life for the majority.

In Old Testament time the Jews were aware of a promised resurrection, or restoration to life, but that was restoration to human life again.

Acts 3:21 (WEB):

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

Acts 23:8 (WEB):

(8) For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess all of these.​

The peospect of a resurrection as spirit beings and going to heaven was only revealed during/after Jesus' ministry. But that is irrelevant to the discussion.

I believe they are very relevant....
Luke 20: 37-38...
“But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

That Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would live again by a resurrection from the dead was so definitely fixed that God spoke to Moses as if they were already alive, “living.” It was such a foregone conclusion that it was stated as if they were still alive......Jews were never taught that a part of humans lived on after death....so this is the only way to use scripture to answer these questions. All else is speculation.

They were not alive, but they still existed in a dormant or sleeping state, otherwise they could not be awakened.

Again....God knows how to restore life once it has been lost.....we really don’t need to know how. All that the Bible tells us is that there is no consciousness in death. Only God can restore consciousness that will self identify as that person with a new body....there are way more important things that should take our attention.

The details are really not that important.....are they?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If I had any indication that you had the faintest clue as to what you're talking about, I might continue the conversation. But you clearly do not.

As I mentioned to you previously, my mother as a small child, had some pretty weird experiences that neither she nor her mother could explain.
Visitaions at her bedside from a nun. (She was not Catholic, but later attended a Catholic school)
The creepy thing was that the nun who appeared at her bedside was a teacher at the school she later attended.....the nun recognised my mother and said she knew her well, but my mother had never met her before, except in this spiritistic form a few years before.

During wartime in England where my mother was raised, my deceased great grandmother appeared to my grandmother, telling her that the bombs dropping all around would not fall on her house or harm her...and sure enough they survived the night with homes all around them, obliterated.

My grandmother was quite spiritistic and brought a ouija board into our home when she came to live with us.
We all gathered around the table allowing the pointer to take us where it might.....we thought it was harmless fun when the spirits predicted something would happen on the 8th of September.....we all laughed and said that I was probably going to be married on that date....but my father died very suddenly on that very day with no warning. He just dropped dead.....leaving us in shock because he was only 52.

We tried to burn the ouija board but it would not burn, so we threw it in the trash and began to wonder about those spirit entities that were around us, seemingly waiting for an opportunity to deceive us or to pull us into their world. Who were they and what did they want from us?
That is one of the things that sent me on my own journey of discovery into God’s word.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but God has given us warnings about communicating with “the dead” for good reason. If they were the genuine spirits of lost loved ones, then why would God forbid communication with them? Deuteronomy 18 states that even inquiring of the dead, let alone speaking with them, is forbidden as something “detestable to God”.
If they were demonic spirits impersonating the dead, they would know everything about those ones and could use that knowledge to deceive, as we often hear people say that the spirit knew things only that person would know.....they make it their business to know. Deception is their art form...their craft.

If I had any indication that you had the faintest clue as to what you're talking about, I might continue the conversation. But you clearly do not. You're a Bible-verse popcorn machine living in a demon-haunted world of your own making, and I think I could make a pretty good guess at your denominational affiliation.

Since the Bible is God’s primary communication with fallen humanity, we need to heed its warnings because those who are against us are way more powerful and devious than we are. They know what heartstrings to pull for the desired result....hostility often results when those things are challenged.

You mentioned a “demon haunted world” as if that could never be a possibility.....yet the Bible tells us that is exactly where we live for now. Demonic activity has been the bane of our existence since the beginning, but God has not permitted the devil’s rulership here just for his own entertainment......the reason why satan rules the world was admitted by the devil himself when he tempted Jesus....
Luke 4:5-7....
“So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”

Jesus did not refute his claim, but simply quoted God’s word in his reply. If world rulership is truly under the control of the devil and his minions, (1 John 5:19) by God’s permission, then we are certainly living in a world that is “demon haunted”......can we not see it with our own eyes?......the level of evil sometimes beggars belief, and is often described as “inhuman”....that means “not human”....so who else is manipulating mankind to levels of wickedness that they would not normally go to?

To let our guard down and assume that this is not true, argues with all that the Bible says about the demons and their agenda....and why God even permitted their existence in the beginning.....why did he not just eliminate the rebels and start again? If we don’t explore these things, we will never see the big picture.

Luke 10:21....
“In that very hour [Jesus] became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.”

Why would God “hide” things from those who are “wise and intellectual” and “reveal them to “young children”? What is there about ‘intellectuals’ that can inhibit the operation of God’s spirit in them? Their pride usually......and their looking down on those whom they view as intellectually inferior.....like intellectual toddlers who know nothing.....maybe the babies know more than you think.

We all need a wake up call.....but some of us are sound sleepers....

Proverbs 3:5-7...
“Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.
7 Do not become wise in your own eyes.”

At the risk of being a “Bible-verse popcorn machine”.....I will leave you with that.....FWIW.

Peace to you...

 

[O'Darby]

As I mentioned to you previously, my mother as a small child, had some pretty weird experiences that neither she nor her mother could explain.
Visitaions at her bedside from a nun. (She was not Catholic, but later attended a Catholic school)
The creepy thing was that the nun who appeared at her bedside was a teacher at the school she later attended.....the nun recognised my mother and said she knew her well, but my mother had never met her before, except in this spiritistic form a few years before.

During wartime in England where my mother was raised, my deceased great grandmother appeared to my grandmother, telling her that the bombs dropping all around would not fall on her house or harm her...and sure enough they survived the night with homes all around them, obliterated.

My grandmother was quite spiritistic and brought a ouija board into our home when she came to live with us.
We all gathered around the table allowing the pointer to take us where it might.....we thought it was harmless fun when the spirits predicted something would happen on the 8th of September.....we all laughed and said that I was probably gong to be married on that date....but my father died very suddenly on that very day with no warning. He just dropped dead.....leaving us in shock because he was only 52.

We tried to burn the ouija board but it would not burn, so we threw it in the trash and began to wonder about those spirit entities that were around us, seemingly waiting for an opportunity to deceive us or to pull us into their world. Who were they and what did they want from us?
That is one of the things that sent me on my own journey of discovery into God’s word.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but God has given us warnings about communicating with “the dead” for good reason. If they were the genuine spirits of lost loved ones, then why would God forbid communication with them? Deuteronomy 18 states that even inquiring of the dead, let alone speaking with them, is forbidden as something “detestable to God.
If they were demonic spirits impersonating the dead, they would know everything about those ones and could use that knowledge to deceive, as we often hear people say that the spirit knew things only that person would know.....they make it their business to know. Deception is their art form...their craft.

Since the Bible is God’s primary communication with fallen humanity, we need to heed its warnings because those who are against us are way more powerful and devious than we are. They know what heartstrings to pull for the desired result....

You mention a “demon haunted world” as if that could never be a possibility.....yet the Bible tells us that is exactly where we live for now. Demonic activity has been the bane of our existence since the beginning, but God has not permitted the devil’s rulership here just for his own entertainment......the reason why satan rules the world was admitted by the devil himself when he tempted Jesus....
Luke 4:5-7....
“So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”

Jesus did not refute his claim, but simply quoted God’s word in his reply. If world rulership is truly under the control of the devil and his minions, (1 John 5:19) by God’s permission, then we are certainly living in a world that is “demon haunted”......can we not see it with our own eyes?......the level of evil often beggars belief and is often describes as “inhuman”....that means “not human”....so who else is manipulating mankind to levels of wickedness that they would not normally go?

To let our guard down and assume that this is not true, argues with all that the Bible says about the demons and their agenda....and why God even permitted their existence in the beginning.....why did he not just eliminate the rebels and start again? If we don’t explore these things, we will never see the big picture.

luke 10:21....
“In that very hour [Jesus] became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.”

Why would God “hide” things from those who are “wise and intellectual” and “reveal them to “young children”? What is there about ‘intellectuals’ that can inhibit the operation of God’s spirit in them? Their pride usually......and their looking down on those whom they view as intellectually inferior.....like intellectual toddlers who know nothing.....maybe the babies know more than you think.

We all need a wake up call.....but some of us are sound sleepers....

Proverbs 3:5-7...
“Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.
7 Do not become wise in your own eyes.”

At the risk of being a “Bible-verse popcorn machine”.....I will leave you with that.....FWIW.

Peace to you...

I likewise would never touch, and never have touched, a Ouija board. The distinction you fail to make is between attempting to initiate contact with the dead and the dead initiating contact with you. After-Death Communications are ENTIRELY in the latter category. If God is such a Hopelessly Ineffectual Doofus that a Christian cannot trust an unsought-after communication from his Christian wife of 33 years on the day of her death without obsessing about "demons," then God needs to find a new job. This is all about nothing more than attempting to cling to some dubious "biblical" notion that the dead are unconscious in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I likewise would never touch, and never have touched, a Ouija board. The distinction you fail to make is between attempting to initiate contact with the dead and the dead initiating contact with you. After-Death Communications are ENTIRELY in the latter category. If God is such a Hopelessly Ineffectual Doofus that a Christian cannot trust an unsought-after communication from his Christian wife of 33 years on the day of her death without obsessing about "demons," then God needs to find a new job. This is all about nothing more than attempting to cling to some dubious "biblical" notion that the dead are unconscious in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Who created the “mountain”, and what is the mountain doing to intelligent men like yourself? Like those you mentioned previously? They have adopted a completely opposite view of death than what the Bible promotes.....who was the one who told Eve she “surely would not die”? It wasn’t God.

The demons are also in the habit of unsolicited communication because they know what heartstrings to pull in order to undo faith in the Bible as the inspired word of God....which says we cannot communicate with spirits of the dead because they do not exist....the only living spirits in existence are either fallen angels, or the the ones who remained faithful to God and his son.

I see the hostility in you that I have seen in others....because what you have experienced was no doubt pleasant and reassuring to you.......as I said....FWIW...I offered you an explanation.....
Whether you accept it or not is entirely up to you....

Satan can masquerade as “an angel of light”. Deceivers love to deceive....the deceived will not know until it’s too late....not because they don’t know the truth, but because they didn’t believe it when it was offered to them.

 

[O'Darby]

They have adopted a completely opposite view of death than what the Bible promotes.....who was the one who told Eve she “surely would not die”?

"They have adopted a completely opposite view of death than what the denomination, sect or cult of which I am a member promotes ..."

Perhaps closer to the truth?

Insofar as I know, the JW and SDA are the only ones teaching the soul sleep doctrine. This surely tells us something.

'Nuff said.

 

[TheHC]

"They have adopted a completely opposite view of death than what the denomination, sect or cult of which I am a member promotes ..."

Perhaps closer to the truth?

Insofar as I know, the JW and SDA are the only ones teaching the soul sleep doctrine. This surely tells us something.

'Nuff said.

No, I’m sorry but it’s not ‘Nuff said….these concepts are promoted in the Bible.

In Deuteronomy 18:10-12, where God tells the Israelites not to attempt ‘consulting with the dead’, with what other actions is it lumped together? Magic, divination, binding others with spells, sorcery… what’s the source of power behind these?

NDE’s, ADE’s, etc., are quite ubiquitous, aren’t they? But Christians should expect such occultic activities to be everywhere. Do you know why? Because Satan and his demon cohorts are “misleading the entire inhabited Earth.” - Revelation 12:9; 1 John 5:19; see John 12:31


I hope you have a good day, my cousin.

 

[TheHC]

As I mentioned to you previously, my mother as a small child, had some pretty weird experiences that neither she nor her mother could explain.
Visitaions at her bedside from a nun. (She was not Catholic, but later attended a Catholic school)
The creepy thing was that the nun who appeared at her bedside was a teacher at the school she later attended.....the nun recognised my mother and said she knew her well, but my mother had never met her before, except in this spiritistic form a few years before.

During wartime in England where my mother was raised, my deceased great grandmother appeared to my grandmother, telling her that the bombs dropping all around would not fall on her house or harm her...and sure enough they survived the night with homes all around them, obliterated.

My grandmother was quite spiritistic and brought a ouija board into our home when she came to live with us.
We all gathered around the table allowing the pointer to take us where it might.....we thought it was harmless fun when the spirits predicted something would happen on the 8th of September.....we all laughed and said that I was probably going to be married on that date....but my father died very suddenly on that very day with no warning. He just dropped dead.....leaving us in shock because he was only 52.

We tried to burn the ouija board but it would not burn, so we threw it in the trash and began to wonder about those spirit entities that were around us, seemingly waiting for an opportunity to deceive us or to pull us into their world. Who were they and what did they want from us?
That is one of the things that sent me on my own journey of discovery into God’s word.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but God has given us warnings about communicating with “the dead” for good reason. If they were the genuine spirits of lost loved ones, then why would God forbid communication with them? Deuteronomy 18 states that even inquiring of the dead, let alone speaking with them, is forbidden as something “detestable to God”.
If they were demonic spirits impersonating the dead, they would know everything about those ones and could use that knowledge to deceive, as we often hear people say that the spirit knew things only that person would know.....they make it their business to know. Deception is their art form...their craft.

Since the Bible is God’s primary communication with fallen humanity, we need to heed its warnings because those who are against us are way more powerful and devious than we are. They know what heartstrings to pull for the desired result....hostility often results when those things are challenged.

You mentioned a “demon haunted world” as if that could never be a possibility.....yet the Bible tells us that is exactly where we live for now. Demonic activity has been the bane of our existence since the beginning, but God has not permitted the devil’s rulership here just for his own entertainment......the reason why satan rules the world was admitted by the devil himself when he tempted Jesus....
Luke 4:5-7....
“So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”

Jesus did not refute his claim, but simply quoted God’s word in his reply. If world rulership is truly under the control of the devil and his minions, (1 John 5:19) by God’s permission, then we are certainly living in a world that is “demon haunted”......can we not see it with our own eyes?......the level of evil sometimes beggars belief, and is often describes as “inhuman”....that means “not human”....so who else is manipulating mankind to levels of wickedness that they would not normally go to?

To let our guard down and assume that this is not true, argues with all that the Bible says about the demons and their agenda....and why God even permitted their existence in the beginning.....why did he not just eliminate the rebels and start again? If we don’t explore these things, we will never see the big picture.

luke 10:21....
“In that very hour [Jesus] became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.”

Why would God “hide” things from those who are “wise and intellectual” and “reveal them to “young children”? What is there about ‘intellectuals’ that can inhibit the operation of God’s spirit in them? Their pride usually......and their looking down on those whom they view as intellectually inferior.....like intellectual toddlers who know nothing.....maybe the babies know more than you think.

We all need a wake up call.....but some of us are sound sleepers....

Proverbs 3:5-7...
“Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.
7 Do not become wise in your own eyes.”

At the risk of being a “Bible-verse popcorn machine”.....I will leave you with that.....FWIW.

Peace to you...

Wow, that is some information!

Since Satan & the demons can’t predict the future, you know what that tells me (us)? That they had some hand in your father’s death! (Hebrews 2:14) They maneuvered events somehow, to cause it.

Just like Jesus said at John 8:44, in addition to being “a liar”, Satan the Devil was & is “a murderer”! He’s clever…. and more intelligent than we are. Plus he’s had 6,000 years’ practice in manipulating / deceiving humans.

[We should be thankful that Jehovah restrains him to the degree He does! Can you imagine if Jehovah hadn’t stepped in with the Flood?! Those sex-mad “angels that sinned” (2Pet.2:4; Jude1:6; Gen.6:1-4) would still be at it!]

Thanks for sharing that!

Later I’ll tell you an experience I was a part of, regarding a premonition someone had. It almost came true!

 

[Aunty Jane]

"They have adopted a completely opposite view of death than what the denomination, sect or cult of which I am a member promotes ..."

No, the Bible is absolutely clear on that subject. Misinterpretation does not alter the truth, no matter how many accept it.
If the dead are really alive somewhere, then God is a liar. The Bible does not support any kind of immortal soul or invisible conscious entity that survives death. If the dead are not really dead, then what is there to resurrect?
If they are up there watching what is going on down here, with the people they left behind in this horrible world, then how can heaven ever be a happy place?

Perhaps closer to the truth?

If that is what you want to believe then that is your truth....but it’s not the Bible’s truth.

Insofar as I know, the JW and SDA are the only ones teaching the soul sleep doctrine. This surely tells us something.

'Nuff said.

Yes...more that enough actually....since “few” are said to be on the road to life....we are not going to find the “many” traveling the road that true disciples of Christ are traveling....(Matt 7:13-14)....the majority are traveling in the opposite direction......and its a dead end.
If you think that the divided mess that is Christendom qualifies as “Christianity”.....then all I can say is......all the best with that.
The Bible is all we have been given to ascertain the will of God and to explore his purpose for mankind on this earth. We ignore it at great risk......though that will not be obvious until the judgment.

“Sheep or goats”....that’s all there is when Jesus comes as judge....

 

[keithr]

If I had any indication that you had the faintest clue as to what you're talking about, I might continue the conversation. But you clearly do not.

This is a Bible study forum, so the conversation should be Bible based. There's no point continuing the conversation if you're not basing your beliefs on what God's word to us says.

Having an encounter with spirit beings, be it angels, Jesus, God or demons, is a very convincing experience, so I can understand why you feel strongly about it, but there is a possibility that the encounter you had was not with who you assumed it was, and you may have been deceived. It's what Satan and his demons do; they try to convince people that Satan's first lie was true, that people don't die. The only way we can be sure is by whether or not it is in harmony with the Bible. Remember what Jesus said about the devil, John 8:44 (WEB):

(44) ... He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn’t stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.​

​

You're a Bible-verse popcorn machine living in a demon-haunted world of your own making, and I think I could make a pretty good guess at your denominational affiliation.

I think if you guessed what denomination of Church I attend that you would be wrong! (I am not a JW or SDA).

 

[amigo de christo]

Again the Bible tells us what took place at the transfiguration….in accord with a promise Jesus had made, he said before this event….. “There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Matt 16:28)
Some days later, Peter, James and John were taken up into the mountain where Jesus was transfigured before them.
What did the disciples see? They saw Jesus in his heavenly glory accompanied by Moses and Elijah, conversing.
Was it something real that they saw? Were Moses and Elijah really present there?

“As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Matt 17:9)

It was a “vision”, because no one had ascended into heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) therefore, Moses and Elijah were still ‘sleeping’ in their graves….so what was the significance of their particular presence in connection with God’s Kingdom on that occasion? Moses represented the Law, and Elijah represented the Prophets, who were present with the King of the Kingdom….they were seeing the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise. This was the embodiment of God’s kingdom, seen in a glorious, but highly symbolic way.

Peter even tells the church of the glory He saw that would be revealed .
None had yet ascended up into heaven .
But lets look at revelation . GOD showed , revealed to JOHN the DAY of the LORD
many saints were in heaven , YET i bet many had not yet been born on this earth .
IN other words , GOD can reveal anything at anytime to a person . EVEN if said event has not yet occured .
Also consider before , concerning another saul
that there was some kind of place for the dead . Cause a witch raised SAMUEL up
and samuel was not happy bout it either and rebuked saul .
All i know is NO man had yet ascended into heaven . JESUS was the first and in HIM
and HE ALONE shall those who do believe partake of the ressurection of LIFE .
all others the ressurection of the evil and they will not like that day at all .
The message remains , Time to preach , to teach , to say to all , BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST
cause muhammed , nor any other religon or false love gonna save ya .
And make sure its the BIBLICAL JESUS we do teach . cause i also see many who seem to preach another jesus
another love , another so called gospel . IT WONT BE SAVING squat .

 

[amigo de christo]

Elijah was never in a grave.

The heavenly realm is not bound by chronology.

Jesus could transcend into timelessness and talk with saints of old.

The old body may be in a grave or burnt up but the soul/spirit returns to God. Ecc 12:7

Correct , for GOD IS NOT BOUND BY TIME . time as we know it is but for a short season .
TIME as GOD KNOWS IT , HAD NO BEGINNING , HAS NO ENDING . IT just always was and is .
A time our wee minds cannot fully grasp .
GOD revealed even to JOHN the DAY of the LORD .
look at all those souls john saw that had come out of great tribulation .
AND YET in johns time and day THEY WERE NOT EVEN BORN as of yet .
GOD is not bound by time as our minds are bound to what we call time as we know it .

 

[keithr]

This is your assumption though....when we wake each morning we have no recollection of time during that period unless we woke during the night and had to look at a clock to tell us how long we had slept. Death is just like that.....we might have been sleeping for millenniums, but on awakening, it will be as if we closed our eyes only a moment ago. Time stands still for those in the grave.

I agree. We can't keep track of time when we are unconscious or asleep.

You keep saying that it must be a copy.....but a re-creation is not just a copy. If you as a conscious entity remember who you are, and have all your memories restored, how can you not be that same “person” in a new body?

If the "person" ceases to exist, because he/she has disintegrated back to dust, then it is obvious that a re-created human is not the same person (unless there is a non-physical part which survives and is placed in the re-created body). That seems obvious to my logically thinking mind; I don't know why you can't grasp that thought!

And that is exactly what Solomon said in Eccl 9:5,6....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.”

All that made that person who they were, including their emotions has “perished”...which in Hebrew means “destroyed”......but only temporarily removed from existence. The promise of a resurrection takes the sting out of death.

Or more succinctly as I quoted, Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

All thoughts cease at death (hence the dead can't commnuicate with the living). Those thoughts and memories can't continue again if everything that the person was is destroyed. That would be equivalent of the second death, when God destroys "both soul and body in Gehenna {fire}" (Matthew 10:28) - thee will be no resurrection from the second death.

We know that those we have lost will be returned to us.....they will recognise us as we will recognise them.

Yes. But copies, or clones, would also recognise each other if they have the same memories as the original persons. If you came across someone who looked exactly like you, had the same memories, knowledge, etc. as you, and claimed they were you, does that make them you? You would be 100% sure that you were the original you and that the imposter was trying to steal your life (live in your home with your wife and kids, driving your car, etc.). I remember seeing a film with that storyline once - the twist in the tale was that the star of the film eventually discovered that he was the clone and the imposter!

In the resurrection, there are two classes of people....

That's irrelevant as to whether or not a spiritual part of us survives death and can be brought back to life again by God.

Since God does not tell us HOW he restores life to those whom he resurrects, again you are relying on speculation to make your assessments. I trust that God knows what he is doing and has promised a return to life for those in sheol.....

It is a speculation based on what is written in the Bible. I too trust God knows what He is doing! I just don't believe that recreating people from memory is preserving that person and restoring them to life - it would just be creating a copy of the person that had died. I trust that God can preserve us and restore us to life again, as hinted at in some of the Scriptures I quoted, such as:

Acts 7:59 (WEB):

(59) They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”​

2 Corinthians 5:1 (WEB):

(1) For we know that if the earthly house {human body} of our tent {temporary dwelling} is dissolved, we have a building {spirit body} from God, a house not made with hands, eternal {permanent dwelling}, in the heavens.​

2 Corinthians 5:4 (WSV):

(4) For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed {with a permanent body}, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.​

Luke 20: 37-38...
“But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.”

That Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would live again by a resurrection from the dead was so definitely fixed that God spoke to Moses as if they were already alive, “living.” It was such a foregone conclusion that it was stated as if they were still alive......Jews were never taught that a part of humans lived on after death....so this is the only way to use scripture to answer these questions. All else is speculation.

Correct, humans don't continue living after death, they exist in a dormant, sleeping condition - that is what death is. Acts 13:36 (WEB):

(36) For David, after he had in his own generation served the counsel of God, fell asleep, and was laid with his fathers, and saw decay.​

Again....God knows how to restore life once it has been lost.....we really don’t need to know how. All that the Bible tells us is that there is no consciousness in death. Only God can restore consciousness that will self identify as that person with a new body....there are way more important things that should take our attention.

Again, there's a difference between restoring consciousness and re-creating another person who thinks that he/she is you.

The details are really not that important.....are they?

We all desire to know the truth. It's important to me, because if I am not awakened to life again (as the Bible says) but instead God creates somebody else and gives them my memories, then that removes any incentive to obey God's commandments. If God re-creates me from memory, it will not be me, it will be somebody else who thinks they are me.

I think we may have exhausted what we have to say on this topic now, so it's probably time to move on to other topics?

 

[O'Darby]

I actually didn't realize this was the Bible Study forum because I pay no attention.

That being said, my posts raise the question, "What should a rational, biblical Christian believe?"

1. What every major branch of Christianity has always taught and believed and is supported by a veritable mountain of actual human experience among believers and nonbelievers alike;

or​

2. A doctrine taught by eccentric denominations that distinguish themselves by having non-mainstream views, views that force their followers to relegate a veritable mountain of human experience to "demons."

I think I'll go with #1. It's no big deal - a good Christian can certainly believe in soul sleep, but such a Christian (it seems to me) is forced to live in a fearful, demon-haunted world and to worship a rather tiny, ineffectual God.

William Lane Craig is one of the premier Christian philosophers and apologists of modern times. I don't agree with everything he says, but I'm pretty sure he's not possessed by demons. Here is his biblical analysis as to why the doctrine of soul sleep is false:

Is There Consciousness after Death? | Reasonable Faith

Dear William, Firstly, a big thanks to you for grappling with all sorts of challenging questions and for the help you have provided to many people (including myself) to overcome what the writer of the Hebrews calls the

www.reasonablefaith.org

Obviously, when consciousness after death is and always has been believed by every major branch of Christianity and the biblical basis for this is explained by someone of the stature of William Lane Craig, it is NONSENSE to suggest that soul sleep is the only biblical position.