When a believer dies, will he be with God as a sentient being right away?

[keithr]

For one thing, one who is resurrected would not be “another” person….it would be the same person.

Agreed - the person resurrected has to be the same person, otherwise there is no reason for us to take any notice of God's Word! But for the same person that has died to awaken out of the sleep of death, there has to be something that can wake up. The human body disappears and returns to dust, so there must be something non-physical that continues to exist and which can be revived to live again. I surmise that that there is a spirit part to us that continues to exist.

Maybe you meant another body? A “clone”, as you said?

God will give everyone that He resurrects to life another body, that is clear. That is not a clone because the body is just a house, or habitation, for the person to live in. If, as Aunty Jane said, we cease to exist, and God uses His memory of us to recreate us, then that recreation will be a clone - a copy. If your puppy dies and you buy a new identical looking one and tell your young child that it is the same puppy, it would be a lie.

Really though, medical science has discovered that about every seven years, our cells are replaced. We are, in essence, “another” body!

But still, the same person.

Yes, the house or habitation that we live in, the human body, is continually wearing out and being repaired, and it changes shape and size over the years. But although the body changes and deteriorates, many elderly people will tell you that their minds remain the same and they still think as they used to when they were younger, it's just their body that is no longer able to perform like it used to. Who we are is not our body, not even our brains and hearts. Demons, which are spirit beings, can possess and control or influence a human, and likewise it seems reasonable to suppose that we are also essentially a spirit being abiding in a human body, and when the body dies (ceases to function) we continue existing in an unconscious state (like a sleep, as indicated by the Scriptures), and in the future resurrection God will awaken us to a conscious state and give us a new body to abide in.

When Jesus died on the cross he said, Luke 23:46 (WEB):

(46) Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Having said this, he breathed his last.​

He commited his spirit, not his human body, into God's hands. Likewise Stephen said, Acts 7:59 (WEB):

(59) They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”​

 

[O'Darby]

Agreed - the person resurrected has to be the same person, otherwise there is no reason for us to take any notice of God's Word! But for the same person that has died to awaken out of the sleep of death, there has to be something that can wake up. The human body disappears and returns to dust, so there must be something non-physical that continues to exist and which can be revived to live again. I surmise that that there is a spirit part to us that continues to exist.


God will give everyone that He resurrects to life another body, that is clear. That is not a clone because the body is just a house, or habitation, for the person to live in. If, as Aunty Jane said, we cease to exist, and God uses His memory of us to recreate us, then that recreation will be a clone - a copy. If your puppy dies and you buy a new identical looking one and tell your young child that it is the same puppy, it would be a lie.


Yes, the house or habitation that we live in, the human body, is continually wearing out and being repaired, and it changes shape and size over the years. But although the body changes and deteriorates, many elderly people will tell you that their minds remain the same and they still think as they used to when they were younger, it's just their body that is no longer able to perform like it used to. Who we are is not our body, not even our brains and hearts. Demons, which are spirit beings, can possess and control or influence a human, and likewise it seems reasonable to suppose that we are also essentially a spirit being abiding in a human body, and when the body dies (ceases to function) we continue existing in an unconscious state (like a sleep, as indicated by the Scriptures), and in the future resurrection God will awaken us to a conscious state and give us a new body to abide in.

When Jesus died on the cross he said, Luke 23:46 (WEB):

(46) Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Having said this, he breathed his last.​

He commited his spirit, not his human body, into God's hands. Likewise Stephen said, Acts 7:59 (WEB):

(59) They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”​

Literally every cell in the human body is replaced every seven years - and yet we still remain "me" with all our memories intact. This in itself strongly suggests "me" is something other than my brain and body. The so-called "hard problem of consciousness" - meaning how to explain consciousness in terms of materialistic science - is a bigger mystery today than it was thought to be 50 years ago. Neuroscience has made huge strides in mapping the brain but no real progress in explaining consciousness. Quantum physics - things like the "observer effect" and "quantum entanglement" - only add to the mystery.

I have no doubt that consciousness survives bodily death. I've experienced some of the evidence for myself in the form of After-Death Communications from deceased loved ones. The huge variety of compelling human experiences suggesting that consciousness continues immediately after death cannot, IMO, be ignored. It may well be that at some point what survives is transformed into a new and better "me," but I don't believe the idea that the dead are now unconscious can be sustained.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Who we are is not our body, not even our brains and hearts.

A person's volition faculty uniquely identifies him. See What is the human soul technically? and follow up there.

 

[Carl Emerson]

JW"s also dont believe that Jesus rose from the dead in a BODY....

Mmmm... it gets worse.

 

[MA2444]

God will give everyone that He resurrects to life another body, that is clear. That is not a clone because the body is just a house, or habitation, for the person to live in. If, as Aunty Jane said, we cease to exist, and God uses His memory of us to recreate us, then that recreation will be a clone - a copy. If your puppy dies and you buy a new identical looking one and tell your young child that it is the same puppy, it would be a lie.

That's where our soul comes in, right? Our soul contains the complete record of our life. Everything, our personality, who we are. Then we get a new spiritual body like you said to live in and it should be just like Jesus's Resurrection body. Jesus could walk through walls and through locked doors with His new body....and we shall be like He is..

Nobody really thinks that God needs our DNA, do they? That information is digitized within the soul for permanent record! WHen we die and go to be with the Lord in spirit...He has everything He needs already! In our soul.

 

[Behold]

Mmmm... it gets worse.

Mormons are taught that Lucifer and Jesus were Brothers.

They teach that because God "created them both", then that proves that "just like everyone who is created, is a brother sister".. then so are The Lord and the Devil.. "siblings".

However, when Jesus was in Heaven, He was not in a body.. He was Pre-incarnate, Spirit...
He was not created up there.. He always existed as "I and my Father are one".
Jesus refers to Himself as "I Am" and So does God refer to Himself as the same "name".

Satan was/ is a Cherub, now a DEVIL.... a former part of the Heavenly Host.....CREATED by God.

Those are not brothers...

And if you take it farther, and point out to the Mormon whose eyes are now beginning to glaze over .....that Jesus was Virgin Born from a Human and Lucifer never was......

So, that is the power of deception., at work.
It has this remarkable ability to shut out logic, truth, common sense, good theology.

Even an unbeliever would hear this that the Mormons are taught, and understand that its crazy.

This is just like trying to explain to a Calvinist, that the Cross is for everyone's sin., and God wants ALL to be saved as the verse says.

And why cant they HEAR or SEE That?

A.) Paul teaches.....>"WHO has BEWITCHED YOU"..

See that?

Deception is a bewitching power, a spiritual power that is created by the "Father of Lies".

It can cause you to believe deceit, and you will believe its true.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe that if God wanted to He could destroy the whole universe and create a new one (or as many universes as He desires). I never assume that God is limited in any way.

I know he is not limited, but you seem to be imposing limits that the scriptures do not support. Do God’s promises hinge on our understanding of details...or can we just accept them at face value....because he says so and has the ability to stay true to his word?

I am not assuming that if we die and perish that when God recreates us He would be creating a clone; I am reasoning that that would be the case. If we perish in a fire, or if we simply perish in a grave (eaten by worms and insects, with perhaps only bones left remaining, though bones would eventually disappear too), then we could not be resuscitated, because there is nothing to resucitate and bring back to life. God can create an exact copy of our previous body, and he could program our brains with our memories and character, etc., but it would just be a copy and not the original us. It only makes sense to me if humans have an invisible spiritual part that is not destroyed at death (because it is not physical), that can be awakened to a conscious state by God and placed in a body, whether a new (different) body in the resurrection or in the restored original body that was dead and decaying in the case of the miracles performed by Jesus, prophets and apostles of raising people from death within days of them dying.

OK....is your reasoning sound though? God does not need a single molecule of our original body to recreate us.....we know that much. But the “new earth” that Isaiah and Peter and John spoke about is not a recreation of the planet...it is a recreation of God’s first purpose on this planet, which has no defects at all....it is wicked humanity that is causing all the damage.....that is what will be removed (like it was in Noah’s day).....the earth itself is perfect.

Do we really know what process God uses to recreate people? Do we stumble over our own reasoning rather than to allow the scriptures to speak for God, who has no limits and does not necessarily tell us how he conducts his business? If he explained the process would we have the capacity to understand it anyway?
All we know is what the scriptures tell us.....
Gen 2:7-9...
“And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person. [soul] 8 Further, Jehovah God planted a garden in Eʹden, toward the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”

That was mankind’s beginning....but it was followed by a warning.....
“Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” (15-17)

There was only one cause of death, and that was disobedience to their Sovereign. We know what happened and in sentencing Adam for what he had done.....
“And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and ate from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. 18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:17–19)

Was there mention of any afterlife here? Was a part of man to depart and be stored somewhere for later use? It says that a “return to the dust” was all there was to death.....it being the very opposite of life.

Fast forward to the Israelites and their liberation from slavery in Egypt and they were given God’s Law at Mt Sinai. What options were Israel given in their service to God?

“I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers”.

What were the options? “Life or death”.....what was the Jewish understanding about death? They had no option of life in heaven because it was never mentioned in their scripture. That option came later when Messiah was commissioned and he taught his disciples about going to prepare a place in heaven for them......they did not fully understand until the holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost and anointed them for future life in a heavenly kingdom as part of a heavenly priesthood.

Until that time, death was final...the grave was the receptacle for all the dead...except those whose bodies were thrown into “Gehenna”...a place that the Jews knew to be a place of no return....those not worthy of a resurrection would remain in eternal death.

So were the Jews kept in the dark about death? Or did they know all there was to know until the prospect of heaven was introduced to Christ’s disciples? When would they expect to be resurrected to heaven? All the scriptures point to the fact that they anticipated their time in the grave to be very short...their desire to be with their Lord was very strong.....but according to the apostle Paul, that call to heaven was not to be experienced until “the coming or the Lord” at his return to take them “home”. (1 Thess 4:13-18)

Here we are almost 2000 years hence and we are finally in “the last days” of this fated system. Christ has returned as he promised, and he has led his disciples out of “Babylon the great” and directed the most extensive preaching campaign that the world has ever seen, just as he said in Matt 24:14...

“And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”.......
He told them that they would be witnesses of him “to the most distant part of the earth” before he brings the end of this system of things, crashing down on an unsuspecting world.

So just because we don’t understand how God will resurrect the dead, doesn’t mean he can’t do as he said he would.....all remain in their graves until it is time to awaken them......including the “saints”, who were to “sleep” until Jesus came back for them. Was any part of them still “alive” except in God’s memory? These have a “first resurrection” (Rev 20:6) before the bulk of mankind are brought back to life once the Kingdom is ruling from heaven over the earth. (John 5:28-29)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hence when the Scriptures, including Jesus' own words, say that the dead are sleeping and will be awakened, it cannot be referring to the physical body, which returns to dust, but it is referring to the spritual part which remains in God's care. Ecclesiastes 12:7 (WEB):

(7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.​

The Jewish Targum paraphrases this verse as, “The Spirit will return to stand in judgment before God, who gave it thee”. Therefore the Jews seemed to understand the spirit to be the essence of who we are, and not just our breath (our breath can't stand in judgement).

The Tanakh does not say that...
“And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God, Who gave it.” (CJB)
There is no “standing in judgment before God” in that verse. The earliest known copies of the Targums are two fragments of Leviticus that were found at Qumran and that have been dated to the second or first century B.C.E.
By the time of Christ’s first appearance, God had not sent a prophet to Israel for about 400 years!...why? Because their leadership was incorrigible, imagine a disobedient people uncorrected for centuries......no wonder Jesus condemned them to Gehenna! He was not sent to them, but only to “the lost sheep” who were horribly neglected by their appointed shepherds.

An analogy would be a computer. The physical body is represented by the computer, and our personality, knowledge, memories, etc. is represented by the software, which is not physical. If the computer is destroyed, or perishes in a fire, etc., then the computer can be restored by replacement hardware and a backup of the sofware can be retrieved from the safe and copied onto the computer. It would then behave just like the original computer, but it isn't the original computer, it's just a copy. The software could be copied onto many computers, each of the same or different specification, but they would all be copies. If the computer was just the hardware, and that perished, then that computer could never be restored - a computer without the sofware is not a computer, it's just a heater. The sofware backup in the safe is not functioning, similarly after death our spirit is not functioning, it remains in God's safe. At the resurrection God takes the spirit from His safe and places it in a new body, but the difference from the analogy is that there is only one spirit, that was living but then in a dormant state (death), which God restores to a living state and give it a new body. Like you I don't know the science of how God can do that, but I believe that He can and will do it.

What was the meaning of “spirit” to those who did not believe in an afterlife? The “spirit” to a Jew was the “breath”...the animating force in all living breathing creatures.....they all die the same death as we do. (Eccl 3:19-20)

There was a difference between “spirit” and “a spirit” in Jewish understanding....both are invisible but have tangible manifestations. The “spirit” in man was his breath...his lifeforce.....
”a spirit” was an invisible entity....a fallen angel who was manifested in demon possessed people. These demons no longer had the ability to manifest in the flesh as they did in Noah’s day, so they harassed people by taking over their bodies to cause their harm....sometimes many demons would possess one individual as was demonstrated by Jesus in Matt 8:28-34.

Now you are assuming that our personalites are just preserved in God's memory. That means there is no continuity between our current lives and our resurrected lives. The resurrected person would just be a copy, and not us.

God recreates the “person”.....all that made them a “soul”. Only God knows how that is accomplished.
The human need to put limits on the abilities of God is a reflection of their carnal mind.....we have to admit that with God, nothing is impossible. Scripture is all we have, so we cannot go outside of it in search of the truth.

Paul also talks of how "we" live in a "house", which is our human body, but when we die and that body is dissolved then "we" will be given a new house by God (some time in the future) - an immortal spirit body (if we are a Christian). Consider 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 (WEB):

(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.​

(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;​

(3) if so be that being clothed we will not be found naked.​

(4) For indeed we who are in this tent do groan, being burdened; not that we desire to be unclothed, but that we desire to be clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.​

(5) Now he who made us for this very thing is God, who also gave to us the down payment of the Spirit.​

(6) Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord;​

(7) for we walk by faith, not by sight.​

(8) We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.​

(9) Therefore also we make it our aim, whether at home or absent, to be well pleasing to him.​

(10) For we must all be revealed before the judgment seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

This is a spirit anointed Christian describing his future resurrection....not one like they had seen Jesus perform, but one that meant shedding their fleshly body to take on a new spiritual body.....a ‘rebirth’.... in order to be able to dwell in the presence of God in a different realm that the Bible calls heaven.....do we really know what heaven is? Or even where heaven is?

Not all Christians are “called” to heaven (Heb 3:1)....only some are chosen for a role in heaven, but the vast majority will be ruled by the chosen ones, and will live on earth as God first purposed. (Rev 21:2-4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

...and the thief was to be in paradise with Jesus without delay.

Again you quote scripture with Christendom’s party line....with no thought given to the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ words to the one who hung alongside of him.

The thief was not with Jesus anywhere that day, because Jesus was in his grave for three days following his death. He was not resurrected that day, and neither was the thief. He was not a disciple, and this is not a “death bed confession”. Jesus promised the man “paradise”, not heaven. Where was the first "paradise" where man was placed at the beginning?

The issue is that most folks don't appreciate the timeless space that exists in eternity which means in chronology there is a perceived delay but there is no delay in timeless eternity.

And where will I find that stated in the scriptures? Did you just make that up?

The man executed with Christ will be resurrected, as he said to Jesus...”remember me when you get into your kingdom” .....when the kingdom “comes” and God’s “will is done on earth as it is in heaven”.....then John 5:28-29 will have its fulfillment.....even those who had done vile things in the past would awaken and be given a second chance at life, having paid sins wages with their own death......they rise with a clean slate, under God’s redemption through Christ's death, and are given every opportunity to repent of their former deeds.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are so many flaws in your use of Scripture, but that is the way you have been taught I guess.

Who taught you? Seems you have no beliefs that are outside of Christendom's poor excuse for doctrine.....none are based on correct interpretation of scripture because there are so many conflicting beliefs. Will the real Christians please raise their hands.....
Now ask if Jesus sees that hand, since the excuses offered at the judgment by those who claim Jesus as their "Lord", indicate that these "Christians" are the last to know that Christ "never knew" them. (Matt 7:21-23)

As all but your folk are deceived there is little point in dialogue.

Since those being saved are "few", perhaps you should reserve judgement on that...? The "many" all accept the three basic lies upon which Christendom is built.....the worship of more that one god (they have three)....immortality of the soul, meaning that they have no idea what a soul is....and a hell of eternal torment for the wicked, indicating that they have no understanding of the difference between "hades" and "gehenna".
Poor Bible translation doesn't help.

JW"s also dont believe that Jesus rose from the dead in a BODY....

LOL...I just love it when people think they know all about JW's...reading about us from what our opposers say.....that's like asking the Pharisees what they thought of Jesus.

Of course we believe that Christ rose in a body...the same kind of body he had before he came to earth to be born as a mortal human. In order to return to heaven, Jesus was given back his glorious spirit body.....the kind of body that all who dwell in the heavenly realm have......even "God is a spirit". (John 4:24) The kind of body he promised that Christ's anointed brothers would have.

1 Cor 15:42-45...
"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit."

There it is in black and white...no ambiguity whatsoever.

You don't even realize that the devil is doing to all of you, what he did to the Pharisees....he can make evil appear to be good and vice versa.....but you all, divided and squabbling over doctrine whilst pretending that you will all go to heaven, just continue on in your merry way.....oblivious to the fact that what you practice is not Christianity at all, but a pathetic counterfeit sown by the devil. Its been around so long that you accept it without question.....maybe its time to take stock of where your beliefs come from......do your own research.

I thank God that Jesus is our judge, because he knows who we are at heart......stubborn like the Pharisees...or meek and teachable like young children......we are all deciding our own fate by the choices we make. Don't ever think that the devil cannot deceive you......he has had lots of success and experience.
He turned almost the entire nation of Israel (God's own people) against their promised messiah......you think he cannot do it again?

History is repeating, folks....right under your collective and divided, noses. God's spirit unites his worshippers...it does not divide them.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Mormons are taught that Lucifer and Jesus were Brothers.

They teach that because God "created them both", then that proves that "just like everyone who is created, is a brother sister".. then so are The Lord and the Devil.. "siblings".

However, when Jesus was in Heaven, He was not in a body.. He was Pre-incarnate, Spirit...
He was not created up there.. He always existed as "I and my Father are one".
Jesus refers to Himself as "I Am" and So does God refer to Himself as the same "name".

Satan was/ is a Cherub, now a DEVIL.... a former part of the Heavenly Host.....CREATED by God.

Those are not brothers...

And if you take it farther, and point out to the Mormon whose eyes are now beginning to glaze over .....that Jesus was Virgin Born from a Human and Lucifer never was......

So, that is the power of deception., at work.
It has this remarkable ability to shut out logic, truth, common sense, good theology.

Even an unbeliever would hear this that the Mormons are taught, and understand that its crazy.

This is just like trying to explain to a Calvinist, that the Cross is for everyone's sin., and God wants ALL to be saved as the verse says.

And why cant they HEAR or SEE That?

A.) Paul teaches.....>"WHO has BEWITCHED YOU"..

See that?

Deception is a bewitching power, a spiritual power that is created by the "Father of Lies".

It can cause you to believe deceit, and you will believe its true.

Yes, being blind to your own deception is bondage indeed...

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, being blind to your own deception is bondage indeed...

Strange that this "blindness" is common among folks such as yourself (2 Cor 4:3-4)....like the Pharisees pointing fingers at Jesus, not realizing that they were condemning themselves in the process.....who is your own teacher?

 

[MatthewG]

Jesus will raise all people up.

There is resurrection of condemnation.
There is resurrection of life.
There is a resurrection better than the normal.

I expect with hope upon death; judgment to be quick along with my placement being able to meet Yeshua and hope to enter into the kingdom.

I can’t say anything for anyone else.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Literally every cell in the human body is replaced every seven years - and yet we still remain "me" with all our memories intact. This in itself strongly suggests "me" is something other than my brain and body. The so-called "hard problem of consciousness" - meaning how to explain consciousness in terms of materialistic science - is a bigger mystery today than it was thought to be 50 years ago. Neuroscience has made huge strides in mapping the brain but no real progress in explaining consciousness. Quantum physics - things like the "observer effect" and "quantum entanglement" - only add to the mystery.

Indeed, some things God keeps to himself for now....would we have the mental capacity to understand even if he were to give us the details? I think not......and do we need to know anyway?

I have no doubt that consciousness survives bodily death. I've experienced some of the evidence for myself in the form of After-Death Communications from deceased loved ones.

I would like to ask you about those encounters....I have heard of "near death experiences" but "after death encounters" are something else entirely. My own mother, as a child had some very strange 'experiences'' and so did her mother who was into spiritism...(ouija boards and the like.)
Can you describe your experiences for me?...perhaps we can discuss them in light of the scriptures...?

The huge variety of compelling human experiences suggesting that consciousness continues immediately after death cannot, IMO, be ignored.

That is true.....but from what source does it come? No one can deny their own experiences.....but how do we interpret them? Within what framework?

Eccl 9:5,6,10...Solomon wrote...
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, [wages] because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun [in this world]. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going."

What was this scripture indicating to Israel about the condition of the dead? Was there any suggestion of an afterlife here? Does something in man survive death? Does "love" "perish" along with other more negative emotions? How can that be when LOVE is God's primary quality...and we are made in his image?

Solomon also wrote....
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

What is this indicating about the "spirit" that the Israelites believed in? What is the "one spirit" that all living, breathing creatures have? It is the breath in their lungs that sustains their life. For Jews, breath was "spirit".....the air....the wind.
God animated Adam with "the breath (spirit) of life" and when the last breath leaves the body, the soul (person) dies. (Ezek 18:4)

Psalm 146:3-4...
"Do not put your trust in princes
Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.
4 His spirit [rûaḥ] goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish."

The "spirit goes out" much like a light or a candle "goes out"......it doesn't 'leave' but is extinguished or turned off. The soul is then incapable of feelings or conscious activity of any sort.
Our understanding of scripture has to be through the lens of those to whom it was written.....in how the Jews understood their own scripture in the day.

It may well be that at some point what survives is transformed into a new and better "me," but I don't believe the idea that the dead are now unconscious can be sustained.

Since we do not understand the process by which God restores life to those who are resurrected, it is obvious that he can reverse all physical maladies, as Jesus and his apostles demonstrated. All who are resurrected will have new healthy bodies, not ravaged by age or infirmity or disability. Adam and his wife were perfect human specimens....they lost their perfection through sin and God promises to give us back all that we lost in Eden because none of that was our fault.

 

[ScottA]

I doubt it.

Jesus resurrected Lazarus in John 11. When Lazarus died, I don't think he went up to heaven to be with God as a conscious acting being. If he did, then Jesus would have to pull him away from God and return him back to his earthly body. When a person dies, he becomes unconscious, and his soul is stored in a secure place.

Like all biblical issues, this is one where Time gets in the way of fully understanding.

The issue is clouded by the illusion of time. If we can consider that time is part of this created world but not a part of our eternal God, then this issue is one that needs to be translated from terms of time to that of eternal terms, or as Paul indicated: It all needs to be "rightly divided" between those two very different sets of terms.

Death brings a transference between this world of time and eternity.

However, in the case of Lazarus, as an example of what occurs with us all, no transference was made. You made that point, and it is correct. But what you have not factored in, is just what time is. Time is not what it appears from within it. Actually, time, as all things, is within God, in whom there is no actual time. In other words, yes, God has incrementally divided His great vastness into bitesize pieces (and before that milk) for revelations to us. But what is timeless, being without beginning or end, cannot otherwise actually include time. So, no, there is no "storing" of souls until time runs its coarse...only a transference. Yet, what then of Lazarus (and what also applies to us all)?

This time in which we live, that is without actual time--is biblically referred to as "half a time", or in modern terms, as "the dividing of time." The giveaway words from God, the key, is "silence in heaven for half an hour" Revelation 8:1. "Half" here is defined as "partitioning what is connected." That--is the created status of our existence--in God...which has been done in the form of "image" Genesis 1:26. In other words, this would-be time, is that inseparable "half an hour" of silence.

If you are not getting this--forget it. You don't need to understand it. Even so, I have told you the truth...and this issue of soul sleep or storage or of time actually being real rather than a created incremental illusion of image, need not be debated or misunderstood. That time has passed.

@Mr E
@amadeus

 

[TheHC]

Agreed - the person resurrected has to be the same person,…

Yes.

But for the same person that has died to awaken out of the sleep of death, there has to be something that can wake up. The human body disappears and returns to dust, so there must be something non-physical that continues to exist and which can be revived to live again.

But this is what the Resurrection is for. God could turn stones into life, if He wanted to. It’s our person - our personality - that makes us who we are. And different from each other.

I surmise that that there is a spirit part to us that continues to exist.

But our person isn’t in our spirit; I know a lot of people are fond of using the passage at Eccl.12:7, “the spirit returns to God, who gave it.” (As if that implies ‘we’ are in it.)
But another verse, Psalm 146:3,4, simply says “His (man’s) spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground….”
The spirit “goes out”, that’s it. Look at the words “his”, & “he”. In similar contexts, “his” & “he” always apply to the person, not the body.

For our life to continue, it depends on the spirit. This fact is supported by other Biblical verses. Psalm 104:29 states: “If you [Jehovah] conceal your face, they get disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they expire, and back to their dust they go.”
Again, look at the words “they” and “their”; in similar contexts, it always refers to people, not bodies.
When you couple this passage with James 2:26, which states “the body without spirit is dead”, we can see that the spirit is what animates the whole us: our person, and our body. Our spirit is simply an invisible life-force.

Consider this….
What did God tell Adam would happen, if he were to eat from the forbidden tree? God simply said, “you will die.” Now if that entailed ‘going off into another realm’…. shouldn’t a God of truth have told them? But that’s all God said.

Did they (A&E) know what death was? Yes apparently, by seeing the animals die. Observing what happened to them.
At Genesis 3:19, after A&E had sinned, God said they were going back to the ground. (Just like what happens with the animals ) Sounds like Ps.104:29 again, doesn’t it?

Speaking of animals, please read Ecclesiastes 3:19,20.

The only difference is that, created as sons & daughters of Jehovah God (although we are in an alienated condition), we are given an opportunity to have our life restored at the Resurrection. “In the last day”, Jesus said. — John 6:40,44.

This is why the Resurrection, made possible only through Jesus’ sacrifice, is so valuable!

Can you imagine the joy of seeing our loved ones again, restored to life?! This time, with everlasting life in view? What a “gift”! — Romans 6:23

Take care, my cousin.

 

[TheHC]

…there must be something non-physical that continues to exist…

Yes, you could say that: it would be our entire person, including what our body looked like — big, fat, skinny, small — in God’s memory.

Didn’t Jesus say, “Even the hairs of your head are all numbered”?

Just think of what this means: the personal interest that Jehovah takes in each of us!

Now that, is a loving Father!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Strange that this "blindness" is common among folks such as yourself (2 Cor 4:3-4)....like the Pharisees pointing fingers at Jesus, not realizing that they were condemning themselves in the process.....who is your own teacher?

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

And do you know how many people will claim that....but then disagree with each other....They all think the same as you, so how would you know who has a genuine anointing and who is just fooling themselves?

As part of his end time prophesy, Jesus has appointed a "faithful slave" to guide and direct all his disciples at this time (Matt 24:45) ....who is he? Jesus asked that because many would claim to be him, or to be taught by him......and yet they are not united in their beliefs.....where then is God's spirit?....Does God teach different things to different people?
......time will tell, wont it?

 

[keithr]

I have no doubt that consciousness survives bodily death. I've experienced some of the evidence for myself in the form of After-Death Communications from deceased loved ones.

That will be demons trying to deceive people into believeing that dead people are not dead but are still conscious and can communicate with us (through mediums for example). The Scriptures say that the dead are sleeping, i.e. are unconscious and cannot communicate with anybody else.

Psalms 146:4 (WEB):

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

Ecclesiastes 9:10 (WEB):

(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.​

Deuteronomy 31:14,16 (WEB):

(14) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, your days approach that you must die. ...​

(16) Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, you shall sleep with your fathers. ...​

2 Samuel 7:12 (WEB):

(12) When your days are fulfilled, and you sleep with your fathers, I will set up your offspring after you, who will ...​