When a believer dies, will he be with God as a sentient being right away?

[TonyChanYT]

I doubt it.

Jesus resurrected Lazarus in John 11. When Lazarus died, I don't think he went up to heaven to be with God as a conscious acting being. If he did, then Jesus would have to pull him away from God and return him back to his earthly body. When a person dies, he becomes unconscious, and his soul is stored in a secure place.

 

[DJT_47]

If you believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, then yes. And by believer, that must mean a saved individual and not one that simply believes since belief alone saves no one.

Edit:

Just to clarify my above statement. Lazarus was comforted in Abraham's bosom at his death but not necessarily in heaven or paradise with God; the scripture says Abraham was "afar off", where, who knows, it's just that Lazarus still had conscious awareness and was comforted as opposed to being in torments in hell as was the rich man immediately upon his death.

 

[O'Darby]

Only if he was a sentient being here on earth. It's not looking good for a lot of forum participants.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I doubt it.

Jesus resurrected Lazarus in John 11. When Lazarus died, I don't think he went up to heaven to be with God as a conscious acting being. If he did, then Jesus would have to pull him away from God and return him back to his earthly body. When a person dies, he becomes unconscious, and his soul is stored in a secure place.

John tells us that no one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) He is “the firstborn from the dead”.…..the first human to attain a heavenly resurrection, (Col 1:18)…but not the first human to be resurrected. Jesus and his apostles resurrected several people, back to their former lives and reunited them with their families.
This is the second or general resurrection of the dead as Jesus said…
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
All the dead (both righteous and unrighteous) are called from the same place…..their graves. (Acts 24:15)

Since the soul IS the sentient being, the soul dies when the last breath is expelled from the lungs. (Ezekiel 4:18, 20) The soul, or what remains of them, returns to the dust just as God said. Why does there need to be a storage place when the grave itself (Sheol) is the storage place. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

What “lives” is the memory of that individual with the one who can recreate them….the one who can return the spirit (breath) of life.

God’s memory is infinite as the scripture in Psalm 147:4 tells us….
”He counts the number of the stars;
He calls all of them by name.”

Astronomers tell us that there are trillions of galaxies and each contain billions of stars…if God can remember each of his stellar creations, how much more so will he remember those made in his image?

Not a molecule of any individual needs to be present for God to resurrect a person and give them a new body. Every single person on this planet is a ‘new creation’ every seven years because of the continual process of cell renewal, so there is not a cell in your body that was there seven years ago……suggesting that God needs to “store” souls is rather pointless. The earth itself is the storage unit for the earthly remains of all his creatures who all die the same death as we do. (Eccl 3:19-20) The difference with humans is the promise of a resurrection because humans alone were not designed to die, but to live forever in their mortal flesh.

The meaning of “mortal” is that they CAN die….but humans had access to “the tree of life“ in the beginning, and this guaranteed them “everlasting life”, which is not “immortality”. When sin entered the human race, God denied access to that life preserving tree. (Gen 3:22-24)
The fact that they CAN die doesn’t mean that they HAD to. Continued life was contingent upon their obedience to their Sovereign Creator. Disobedience was the only cause of death in Eden.

 

[Carl Emerson]

John tells us that no one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13) He is “the firstborn from the dead”.…..the first human to attain a heavenly resurrection, (Col 1:18)…but not the first human to be resurrected. Jesus and his apostles resurrected several people, back to their former lives and reunited them with their families.
This is the second or general resurrection of the dead as Jesus said…
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”
All the dead (both righteous and unrighteous) are called from the same place…..their graves. (Acts 24:15)

Since the soul IS the sentient being, the soul dies when the last breath is expelled from the lungs. (Ezekiel 4:18, 20) The soul, or what remains of them, returns to the dust just as God said. Why does there need to be a storage place when the grave itself (Sheol) is the storage place. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

What “lives” is the memory of that individual with the one who can recreate them….the one who can return the spirit (breath) of life.

God’s memory is infinite as the scripture in Psalm 147:4 tells us….
”He counts the number of the stars;
He calls all of them by name.”

Astronomers tell us that there are trillions of galaxies and each contain billions of stars…if God can remember each of his stellar creations, how much more so will he remember those made in his image?

Not a molecule of any individual needs to be present for God to resurrect a person and give them a new body. Every single person on this planet is a ‘new creation’ every seven years because of the continual process of cell renewal, so there is not a cell in your body that was there seven years ago……suggesting that God needs to “store” souls is rather pointless. The earth itself is the storage unit for the earthly remains of all his creatures who all die the same death as we do. (Eccl 3:19-20) The difference with humans is the promise of a resurrection because humans alone were not designed to die, but to live forever in their mortal flesh.

The meaning of “mortal” is that they CAN die….but humans had access to “the tree of life“ in the beginning, and this guaranteed them “everlasting life”, which is not “immortality”. When sin entered the human race, God denied access to that life preserving tree. (Gen 3:22-24)
The fact that they CAN die doesn’t mean that they HAD to. Continued life was contingent upon their obedience to their Sovereign Creator. Disobedience was the only cause of death in Eden.

You make a grave mistake


How do you account for Moses and Elijah on the mount ?

 

[TonyChanYT]

How do you account for Moses and Elijah on the mount ?

Good question. See Did God resurrect Moses and Elijah already? and follow up there

 

[Aunty Jane]

You make a grave mistake


How do you account for Moses and Elijah on the mount ?

Again the Bible tells us what took place at the transfiguration….in accord with a promise Jesus had made, he said before this event….. “There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Matt 16:28)
Some days later, Peter, James and John were taken up into the mountain where Jesus was transfigured before them.
What did the disciples see? They saw Jesus in his heavenly glory accompanied by Moses and Elijah, conversing.
Was it something real that they saw? Were Moses and Elijah really present there?

“As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Matt 17:9)

It was a “vision”, because no one had ascended into heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) therefore, Moses and Elijah were still ‘sleeping’ in their graves….so what was the significance of their particular presence in connection with God’s Kingdom on that occasion? Moses represented the Law, and Elijah represented the Prophets, who were present with the King of the Kingdom….they were seeing the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise. This was the embodiment of God’s kingdom, seen in a glorious, but highly symbolic way.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Again the Bible tells us what took place at the transfiguration….in accord with a promise Jesus had made, he said before this event….. “There are some of those standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Matt 16:28)
Some days later, Peter, James and John were taken up into the mountain where Jesus was transfigured before them.
What did the disciples see? They saw Jesus in his heavenly glory accompanied by Moses and Elijah, conversing.
Was it something real that they saw? Were Moses and Elijah really present there?

“As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Matt 17:9)

It was a “vision”, because no one had ascended into heaven before Jesus, (John 3:13) therefore, Moses and Elijah were still ‘sleeping’ in their graves….so what was the significance of their particular presence in connection with God’s Kingdom on that occasion? Moses represented the Law, and Elijah represented the Prophets, who were present with the King of the Kingdom….they were seeing the fulfillment of Jesus’ promise. This was the embodiment of God’s kingdom, seen in a glorious, but highly symbolic way.

Half of the modern translations do not translate with the word vision - they say "what you have seen"

If you read from the beginning of the chapter they witnessed a tangible event.

Noun. ὅρᾱμᾰ • (hórāma) n (genitive ὁρᾱ́μᾰτος); third declension. that which is seen, a visible object, a sight.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Half of the modern translations do not translate with the word vision - they say "what you have seen"

Half the translations? Please tell me what a vision is……isn’t it something you see….?

If you read from the beginning of the chapter they witnessed a tangible event.

Noun. ὅρᾱμᾰ • (hórāma) n (genitive ὁρᾱ́μᾰτος); third declension. that which is seen, a visible object, a sight.

Yes…what they “saw” was a vision, not reality….Peter was ready to put up tents for them to spend the night…..but they vanished and Jesus was alone….no longer in his glorious state. They had “seen” what Jesus promised…..a foregleam of his magnificence as God‘s appointed King…..a state of glory that they too would share, but they would not fully comprehend that until their anointing with holy spirit at Pentecost as a token of what was to come for those chosen to be “holy ones”. (Rev 20:6)

Moses and Elijah, according to Jewish belief were still in their graves. Did Jesus teach them something different to what God had taught his people through his prophets? The immortal soul doctrine was introduced to both Judaism and Christendom from platonic Greek ideas….not from the Bible. Neither of them believed in immortality of the soul in the early part of their existence…..corruption takes a while to seep in and become accepted. Who wanted humans to believe that they do not die, when God stated it plainly?

The weeds needed time to grow and flourish like weeds always do….Jesus and the apostles foretold them, and the church was taken way off track by a Roman Emperor trying to create a state religion by fusing pagan ideas with Christian labels, changing the names of pagan celebrations to make them acceptable to the so called Christians, who by the fourth century had already lost their way and were ripe for a takeover..…….what makes today’s “Christians” think it never happened? Look at the pathetic state of the church…..hopelessly divided and bickering over doctrines that they do not share….yet still all claiming to be one with Christ….what a joke!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Half the translations? Please tell me what a vision is……isn’t it something you see….?

When Jesus was baptised a voice from heaven said "this is my Son in whom I am well pleased"

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Do you think that was a 'vision' as well ?

A Christian vision is a message from God in picture form communicated internally by God's Spirit and is individual.

In the case of several disciples walking up a hill with Jesus who is transformed before their eyes into a heavenly state, is seen this way by all the disciples who are awe struck at the sight - this was all external to them - not a vision.

Jesus can appear in a vision, He can also appear face to face external to one's self.

At Jesus Baptism they were able to see what was happening in the Spiritual realm. This was not a vision, rather a glimpse of what was occurring spiritually.

Same with Elisha...

2 Kings 6:17
Then Elisha prayed and said, “O Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the Lord opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Again that was not a vision, it was being able to see what was actually happening in the spiritual realm at that moment.

 

[TheHC]

…and his soul is stored in a secure place.

Interesting way to word that!

The most “secure” place for anyone to be, is in God’s memory.

According to Ezekiel 18:4,20….
All souls die - we all sin (Romans 3:23) - but God says, “to ME they belong.”

Yes, everyone’s future life prospects (including those now dead, whose lives will be restored in the Resurrection), rests in God’s hands.

 

[Aunty Jane]

When Jesus was baptised a voice from heaven said "this is my Son in whom I am well pleased"

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

Do you think that was a 'vision' as well ?

Well, what does it say...? "The heavens were opened"....what does that mean? Could it be that a portal opened so that he remembered all he had previously been when in heaven with his Father, now that he had been baptized to begin his mission...the very reason why he was sent? It must have been like opening a letter from home. He went into the wilderness for 40 days to commune with his Father in preparation for his mission.
He was just Jesus the Carpenter's son before that...like any other Jewish man...nothing striking about his appearance and no abilities to perform miracles before that time. The Bible tells us what it says.....only Jesus was privvy to the what he experienced.

A Christian vision is a message from God in picture form communicated internally by God's Spirit and is individual.

Prophets like Ezekiel had amazing visions, and he struggled at times to put into words what he was seeing.....he recorded what he saw for our benefit.

In the case of several disciples walking up a hill with Jesus who is transformed before their eyes into a heavenly state, is seen this way by all the disciples who are awe struck at the sight - this was all external to them - not a vision.
Jesus can appear in a vision, He can also appear face to face external to one's self.

Yes, a collective vision...is there some scripture that says this was impossible?
Jesus was with them in the flesh and he somehow was transfigured before them demonstrating his heavenly glory. When the vision was over...there was just Jesus left by himself.....so, were the persons of Moses and Elijah real? Peter thought so, but they were not. They were not resurrected, because Jesus had not given his life as yet.....and no one was resurrected to heaven before he was. (John 3:13)

At Jesus Baptism they were able to see what was happening in the Spiritual realm. This was not a vision, rather a glimpse of what was occurring spiritually.

Is that what it says?
“After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’”

It says that Jesus saw this, not that onlookers saw what he saw.....the shape of the dove was God's spirit coming upon him.....was it literal? We have no idea, but the anointing of his disciples at Pentecost was with visible tongues of fire, that each could see........then after his baptism and the opening of the heavens revealing his past life....there was the voice from heaven that others heard.
Just let the Bible speak for itself.

Same with Elisha...

2 Kings 6:17
Then Elisha prayed and said, “O Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” And the Lord opened the servant’s eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Again that was not a vision, it was being able to see what was actually happening in the spiritual realm at that moment.

Seriously.....do you actually believe that there are angels riding on horseback in heaven with chariots of fire? If you were going to give a vision of an army today how would you portray them? Riding on horseback with chariots? Or would the weaponry and mode of transportation be in keeping with what we know about warfare today? Its the same with angels...do you seriously believe that they have literal wings? How else would you convey flight to humans with no ability to do what only birds can do?

Do you understand that at that time in history there were no jet fighters or nuclear weapons that modern man has invented. The vision Elisha had reflected the warfare of the day.....not our day. If soldiers turned up on horseback with bows and arrows now, the enemy would wonder what on earth they were thinking...and then obliterate them with a missile.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Moses and Elijah, according to Jewish belief were still in their graves. Did Jesus teach them something different to what God had taught his people through his prophets? The immortal soul doctrine was introduced to both Judaism and Christendom from platonic Greek ideas….not from the Bible. Neither of them believed in immortality of the soul in the early part of their existence…..corruption takes a while to seep in and become accepted. Who wanted humans to believe that they do not die, when God stated it plainly?

Elijah was never in a grave.

The heavenly realm is not bound by chronology.

Jesus could transcend into timelessness and talk with saints of old.

The old body may be in a grave or burnt up but the soul/spirit returns to God. Ecc 12:7

 

[Aunty Jane]

Elijah was never in a grave.

He was when he died.....he did not die in the whirlwind....In fact, years afterward Elijah, still alive, wrote a prophetic letter to Jehoram, king of Judah. (2 Chron 21:12) Later Elijah died, just as all mankind do. Neither he nor Moses was resurrected to everlasting life ahead of Christ, who is “the firstborn from the dead.” Jesus himself, while on earth, said: “No man has ascended into heaven.” (Rev 1:5; John 3:13)

The heavenly realm is not bound by chronology.

Jesus could transcend into timelessness and talk with saints of old.

You assume this to be true.....the Bible is silent on those things.

The old body may be in a grave or burnt up but the soul/spirit returns to God. Ecc 12:7

Sorry but you are mistaking the soul for the spirit...these are not interchangeable terms. There is not a single mention of a soul leaving the body at death to go somewhere else. There is no "immortal soul" because the soul dies. (Ezek 18:4)

The "spirit" is "the breath of life" that animated the soul, Adam. He "became a living soul" when God started him breathing.
The "spirit returns to God" because he is the only one who can give the dead back their lives....he gives them back the breath of life to live again, as God intended....forever in paradise on earth.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, what does it say...?

John the Baptist was told that the one upon whom the Spirit would come upon and remain upon would be the awaited Messiah.

Without this event being visible Jesus would have been like any other devout Jew, and not identified as the Lamb of God..

 

[Carl Emerson]

You assume this to be true.....the Bible is silent on those things.

Not so... Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM"

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sorry but you are mistaking the soul for the spirit

Not really, I used the term soul/spirit because they were undefined for the purposes of this discussion.

Reading Rev 6, the souls of the martyrs do not seem to be in their graves and were even able to speak to the Lord.

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

 

[Aunty Jane]

John the Baptist was told that the one upon whom the Spirit would come upon and remain upon would be the awaited Messiah.

Without this event being visible Jesus would have been like any other devout Jew, and not identified as the Lamb of God..

What other devout Jews could perform miracles? How was the spirit manifest in Christ? Do we know how many people witnessed Jesus’ baptism? The people were coming to John at the river and Jesus presented himself too, but at first John hesitated….but on Jesus’ insistence, he agreed. The account tells us what Jesus saw and what others heard. You seem to assume a lot.

Not so... Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM"

That is not what Jesus said….the Jews asked him a question about his age , not his status as a deity.
John 8:56-58….
”Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” 57 Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

The Jews asked a past tense question and Jesus answered in the same tense…..not the present tense.
”I Am“ does it fit the question, nor is it a reference to Exodus 3:13-15.
If you look up Strongs Concordance you will see that Jesus’ response can be rendered as above.
Jesus was in existence before Abraham was even born.

If you consult the Jewish Tanakh, you will see that God’s name means “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE”…not “I AM”. In context Moses was asking about God’s name and the meaning was significant….it was not a statement about his existence because they had kept themselves separated from the Egyptians in Egypt. They already knew that their God was Jehovah…..but his name took on a new broader meaning with regard to his intention to “BE” whatever he needed to be in order for his will to be accomplished in connection with his people.

Not really, I used the term soul/spirit because they were undefined for the purposes of this discussion.

They need definition or any discussion about them is pointless. The soul is very distinct from the spirit in the Bible…two completely separate things….not all interchangeable.

Reading Rev 6, the souls of the martyrs do not seem to be in their graves and were even able to speak to the Lord.

This is Revelation though, presented in signs, so a lot of it is symbolic. The “souls” of those martyred were pictured under the alter….lamenting the fact that their murders were not avenged…this is pictorial language because these souls have not been sitting under an alter complaining about justice for 2000 years now, have they? The Revelation is about the times we are living in now…..we are in “The Lord’s day”.

9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Can you imagine if this was literal…..God saying….”here’s a white robe…..you just wait there because you fellow martyrs haven’t been killed yet …..once they are all dead we will see about justice for y’all.”

Do you really read what’s written with no understanding about what it means? Symbolism is all through Revelation, which was John’s vision that came from God to Christ, by an angel to John.

 

[keithr]

Since the soul IS the sentient being, the soul dies when the last breath is expelled from the lungs. (Ezekiel 4:18, 20) The soul, or what remains of them, returns to the dust just as God said. Why does there need to be a storage place when the grave itself (Sheol) is the storage place. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

What “lives” is the memory of that individual with the one who can recreate them….the one who can return the spirit (breath) of life.

The difficulty I have with the idea that we are purely physical, and we completely return to dust when we die, with God recreating us at a later date from His memory, is that the newly created person would not be us - it would be a clone (God could even create multiple clones of us - which one would then be the real us?!). There would be no benefit to us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12) if we will die and later God creates another person with our characteristics and memories. It only makes sense to me if there is a spiritual part that retains what it is that we are - our memories, character, etc. - and that survives death in a dormant (sleeping) state, which God can revive to consciousness and give a new body (physical or spiritual) at a later time.

In line with that idea is Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

How would you interpret that verse, which seems to imply that the body can be destroyed but the soul continues to exist, and only God can destroy our soul (second death)?

 

[Behold]

I doubt it.

Jesus resurrected Lazarus in John 11. When Lazarus died,

Lazarus wasn't born again.