"When did the RCC begin?"

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H. Richard

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FHII said:
I don't have a problem with calling the Church a spiritual entity, as we humans have a spiritual side to us also. However, there is a physical Church to which Jesus is the head (Eph 1 and Eph 5 demonstrate this). Christ has given Apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers to care for it and perfect it (through teaching the faith, not works). Notice he didn't say Popes, fathers, monks, priests and nuns....

Christ is one body with many members. That is his Church. There will come a day when this flesh will be laid down and mortality will put on immortality and the Church will indeed be purely spiritual. But until then.... Yes there is a physical Church as well.
Jesus did not set up another religion ran by men. There are some on this and many other forums that are apostles and teachers, teaching the word of God. I recognize them when they teach the cross and the salvation that was paid for by Jesus on the cross. In my opinion I feel you are one of them.

Think about it, are we suppose to accept mans teaching when it is not confirmed by the scriptures and the holy spirit within us?

The church Jesus has set up, now, is not ran by men. Jesus is the head of the body of Christ and we are the members of that body. Our teacher is the Holy Spirit Paul was not unique in that he received his gospel by revelation of the Holy Spirit. All of the children of God have been given that same revelation. Find that in the churches ran by men!
 
B

brakelite

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tom55 said:
If you read what Archbishop Gibbons actually wrote, instead of your partial quote, you would see that he clarifies that statement and reinforces what Christians have been practicing since the death of Jesus and what was practiced in the NT. Celebrating the resurrection of our Lord on Sunday.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf


If you read what John Paul II actually wrote about this, instead of your partial quote, you would see that the PARTIAL QUOTE you provided doesn't tell the full story. Stop being so biased, disingenuous and educate yourself by reading the documents from which you quote.

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1998/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini.html

If you were to read the Baptist Manual written by Hiscox you would see that he supports Sunday worship for the same reason that all Christian Churches do. But why would you read what is actually written by someone when you can just misquote them or not fully quote them or quote them out of context???

http://spiritualforcesministry.org/pdf/standardmanualfo00hisc[1].pdf

If you were to read D.L. Moody 'Weighed and Wanting' you would see what he REALLY believes and preaches about Sunday. But heck...why read what he really said. It's much easier to misquote them to support your heretical belief.

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/BookScans/Moody%20-%20Weighed%20and%20wanting.pdf
Not disingenuous at all. Tom, Catholics such as yourself and Protestants such as I will never see eye to eye on nearly all doctrine, because we come to view Truth from completely different perspectives, and which why I personally see ecumenism as a fraud. Catholicism views doctrine as Bible plus tradition. They teach that all truth is not found in scripture, so add to scripture such doctrines and dogmas they deem appropriate to exercise their brand of faith. That's fine, they can do what they like, and if it suits you, joi them for all your worth, and good luck. When I teach doctrine, I teach it from scripture. And only scripture. So a Catholic coming to me and saying I am wrong because the Catholic church teaches such and such, is quite frankly nonsense. Its like a geologist trying to teach a physicist his trade. They simply dont match and one doesn't have the right to call the other wrong because they are completely different faith paradigms, and the only way they will mix is if one completely compromises that upon which it was founded, and the RCC is never going to do that, but Protestants are doing that, but I am not one of them.
So when I say that Sunday sacredness is not taught in scripture, and I quote Catholic sources that agree with me, I am 100% correct. And Gibbons explains what the Catholic church has done, and that is to invent Sunday sacredness on the basis of tradition, and not on scripture. And i addition to that, because Sunday sacredness is not scriptural, and that the Bible in actual fact reveals that the apostles and early church continued to observe the true Sabbath, which practise is attested to by other RCC authorities, then the change to the day to Sunday is a a lie if they teach that's based on apostolic practice. I believe you will find that it was not based on apostolc practice, but as a sop to paganism in making their conversions easier in the 4th century. But one thing Sunday sacredness is NOT, and that is Biblical.
The other people I quote are all coming from the same direction. They base the change on the power and authority of the church to establish doctrine outside of scriptural support. That's fine, they may do what they like. Just don't expect others who choose to use scripture as the basis of faith and practice, to accept their teachings. Protestants who observe Sunday do so because they don't fully accept the Bible as their sole source of faith and practice. They observe Sunday because they have failed to fully extricate themselves from under their former mother's apron strings, although very few if any would admit it.
 

epostle1

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Why is it always Catholicism getting picked on? What did she ever do to you? We are instructed to call all baptized Christians as brothers and sisters in the Lord and your churches are a means of grace and salvation, even though they are in varying degrees of separation from the historic Church. (CCC 817-819) Taking digs at the Body of Christ is taking digs at yourself, because the CC says you are in it.

The CC has never separated from anyone, and has never changed any doctrine. It's impossible. Development of doctrine does not mean "change". The doctrine of the Trinity has undergone development from the Council of Nicae 325 AD to Vatican II, and is accepted by most Protestants

Who builds the Church? Jesus, of course. Would He build something that would fall apart? "...the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." "not prevail" does not mean "never be attacked", it means the attackers won't win. The gates of hell come in several forms. both internal and external. That means the CC is indestructible, and indefectable because Jesus doesn't build junk.

Jesus said to the Apostles: "I shall be with you always..." He did not say, "I shall be with you in the 15th century." "You" obviously means the Apostles. What does He mean by "always"? Does this promise from Jesus have an expiry date??? If there are no successors, then logically Jesus' words fall empty at the death of the last Apostle. Infallibility is a gift from God to the Church that protects her from teaching error. It's not a Catholic invention but a reality based on The Builder. Not man, not popes etc. etc. as it has been falsely asserted. He hasn't left us and I have faith that He never has and never will.



satire
10570240_1466071716995986_318242870_n_jpg_w_700.jpg
 

tom55

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Sep 9, 2013
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brakelite said:
Not disingenuous at all. Tom, Catholics such as yourself and Protestants such as I will never see eye to eye on nearly all doctrine, because we come to view Truth from completely different perspectives, and which why I personally see ecumenism as a fraud. Catholicism views doctrine as Bible plus tradition. They teach that all truth is not found in scripture, so add to scripture such doctrines and dogmas they deem appropriate to exercise their brand of faith. That's fine, they can do what they like, and if it suits you, joi them for all your worth, and good luck. When I teach doctrine, I teach it from scripture. And only scripture. So a Catholic coming to me and saying I am wrong because the Catholic church teaches such and such, is quite frankly nonsense. Its like a geologist trying to teach a physicist his trade. They simply dont match and one doesn't have the right to call the other wrong because they are completely different faith paradigms, and the only way they will mix is if one completely compromises that upon which it was founded, and the RCC is never going to do that, but Protestants are doing that, but I am not one of them.
So when I say that Sunday sacredness is not taught in scripture, and I quote Catholic sources that agree with me, I am 100% correct. And Gibbons explains what the Catholic church has done, and that is to invent Sunday sacredness on the basis of tradition, and not on scripture. And i addition to that, because Sunday sacredness is not scriptural, and that the Bible in actual fact reveals that the apostles and early church continued to observe the true Sabbath, which practise is attested to by other RCC authorities, then the change to the day to Sunday is a a lie if they teach that's based on apostolic practice. I believe you will find that it was not based on apostolc practice, but as a sop to paganism in making their conversions easier in the 4th century. But one thing Sunday sacredness is NOT, and that is Biblical.
The other people I quote are all coming from the same direction. They base the change on the power and authority of the church to establish doctrine outside of scriptural support. That's fine, they may do what they like. Just don't expect others who choose to use scripture as the basis of faith and practice, to accept their teachings. Protestants who observe Sunday do so because they don't fully accept the Bible as their sole source of faith and practice. They observe Sunday because they have failed to fully extricate themselves from under their former mother's apron strings, although very few if any would admit it.
Did you even read the links I provided?? These are the people YOU want to use as proof that you are right and NONE of them agree with your twisted theory about Sunday sacredness!! YOU chose the sources to back up your theory and those sources destroy your theory. But you wouldn't know that because you didn't read what they said!!

When YOU teach doctrine it is from scripture but when everyone else teaches doctrine it is not from scripture??? Are you being serious???

YOU, a mere mortal man, can interpret scripture properly but the mortal men of the Catholic or Protestant Church's can't interpret scripture properly??? That sounds like true nonsense to me!!

Colossians 2:16-17: “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in regard to food or drink or in respect to festival, or a new moon or a Sabbath day—things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”

I am sure you also know that in scripture they practiced Sunday as the Lords Day. Since the Christians that were alive when the Apostles walked the earth practiced Sunday Sabbath I think THEY know better than YOU and your twisted theory. I defer to the first Christians practice and beliefs. Not yours.

I am also sure that none of this matters to you because you have decided what you believe and nothing can change your mind....Not even the Truth of scripture since you have twisted it so much.

We Christians observe Sunday worship. YOU can do what you like. I am not your judge. It is up to you to accept or reject the truth.
 

FHII

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H. Richard said:
Jesus did not set up another religion ran by men. There are some on this and many other forums that are apostles and teachers, teaching the word of God. I recognize them when they teach the cross and the salvation that was paid for by Jesus on the cross. In my opinion I feel you are one of them.

Think about it, are we suppose to accept mans teaching when it is not confirmed by the scriptures and the holy spirit within us?

The church Jesus has set up, now, is not ran by men. Jesus is the head of the body of Christ and we are the members of that body. Our teacher is the Holy Spirit Paul was not unique in that he received his gospel by revelation of the Holy Spirit. All of the children of God have been given that same revelation. Find that in the churches ran by men!
H. Richard,

I have no doubt you have a verse to back up your claim that Paul wasn't unique and that we all have the same revelation and gift he had.

So let me know what that verse is.

It seems to me that Paul said we don't all have the same gifts in 1 cor 12. Yes, the Holy Spirit does teach us all... But sometimes through other men who have been given that particular gift.

Paul taught a lot on a church government. It actually was a much simpler setup than what goes on today. But it is possible and it still happens today.

I don't however believe its happening in large churches or denominations.
 
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epostle1

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Though Protestants and Catholics have many points of disagreement, it seems the most fundamental area of conflict has to do with the nature of the Church. Is the Church a visible, physically identifiable reality with an institutional government that keeps guard over doctrine and discipline, or is it a kind of invisible, loose union of various communities of Christians with different opinions on doctrinal questions and no institutional reality beyond the local level? Both Protestants and Catholics acknowledge the Church has an invisible, supernatural element; Catholics, however, assert that in addition the Church has a physical, visible side - that it is physically identifiable on this earth. Protestants, following Luther, tend to view the Church as a fundamentally invisible reality. In this essay, we will examine the biblical passages that point to the Church as a physical, institutional reality in conformity with Catholic Tradition.
Please keep in mind, we do not deny that the Church is also a spiritual-invisible reality, nor do we assert that salvation is strictly predicated only of those who are formally part of the physical Church structure - although we confess such an arrangement to be normative. In emphasizing the physical-institutional aspect of the Church, we do not mean to deny the invisible. Rather, as Christ Himself was both God and man, divine and human, so the Church, too, is a kind of incarnation, divine and supernatural while also physical and institutional.
"And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 16:17-19)

As Catholics we are extremely used to citing this passage in context of discussions about the primacy of St. Peter and the prerogatives of the papal office. However, we often overlook the broader implications of the verse: the establishment of a visible hierarchy. When Jesus Christ institutes His Church, He institutes a physical authority structure that will govern that Church. This verse should be read in parallel with Luke 10:16, when Christ says to all the Apostles, "Whoever hears you hears me, and whoever hears me hears Him who sent me." The point is Jesus establishes His Church not just to preach, but to have a real authority, the very authority with which Christ is sent by the Father. This is why the Apostles, always in union with Peter, have the duty not only to preach but also the authority to bind and loose.

We will begin in the Gospel of Matthew:
In short, a Church with authority to bind and loose must have a physical presence; an amorphous, spiritual communion of all believers might be able to preach, but not bind and loose. This 'spiritual Church' model does not fit very well with our Lord's description of the powers the Church is to have. This is why Protestants have traditionally struggled with these verses about binding and loosing; once we presume that the Church is purely spiritual, "binding and loosing" can only have a spiritualized meaning, which is why many Protestants interpret this verse to mean that individual believers have authority to "bind" evil spirits in the name of Jesus. This makes little sense for a few reasons:
First, it makes sense why one would "bind" and evil spirit, but when would you ever need to "loosen" one? [1]
Second, "binding and loosing" in the rabbinical jargon Jesus is using always refers to the binding and loosing of the faithful to certain disciplines, never to spiritual powers.
Third, Jesus says whatsoever you bind "on earth" shall be bound in heaven; he is not referring to the spirit world, but to the world of men. The traditional understanding, that the power of binding and loosing refers to the authority of the Church's legitimate pastors to bind believers in matters of dogma and discipline, fits the passage much better. Because this binding and loosing is also "bound in heaven", it is authoritative - and only a physically constituted authority structure can bind and loose authoritatively. Otherwise, we are left with mere opinion and interpretation.
"He that hears you, hears me; and he that despises you, despises me; and he that despises me, despises him that sent me" (Luke 10:16).

Like the passage about binding and loosing, this passage denotes that the preaching of the Apostles is authoritative. To hear the Apostles is to hear Christ; the preaching of the Apostles is the agency through which faith in Christ is born. "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me" (John 17:20); St. Paul says the same, "Faith then comes by hearing; and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). The word of the Apostles is life-giving; not only this, but despising the message means despising Christ, and thus God the Father. Jesus do not say,"He who does not believe the Scriptures despises me", but "He who despises you despises me." The message comes with authority. An invisible Church - a loose spiritual communion of Christians with diverse beliefs about everything from baptism to salvation to the Rapture to the morality of contraception - cannot preach an authoritative message. There is no common witness. Only a message coming from something that has an institutional nature can possess this kind of authority. (authority is not a dirty word)

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Matt. 18:15-17).

The Church must have a visible structure in order for someone to "tell it to the Church." It could be argued that this simply means to take the problem to the community, but that it says nothing about the nature or structure of that community. We could respond by noting the authority our Lord gives to that community. "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and tax collector." Our Lord expresses a kind of disbelief that someone would refuse to listen to the Church and proscribes a kind of excommunication if they refuse their obedience. A loose spiritual communion cannot command this kind of obedience. The proscription for shunning, "let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector", would make no sense in such a spiritual communion because a person who did not like the judgment of one "church" could just go down the road to another that would give him a favorable judgment. The authority Jesus invests in the Church is meaningless unless there is one Church and unless it has some sort of physical constitution.
“I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (John 17:20-21).
Here we see that the Church's unity is the source of the credibility of her message. The oneness of the Church with the Father and the Son is the reason "that the world may believe." The world is to believe based on the unity of the Church, that unity must be visible - otherwise, how would the world behold it? It is true that the Church could have an internal, moral unity, but this alone is not sufficient. It is true that the essence of the Church's unity is an internal reality based on the union of the Father with the Son that Christ bestowed upon His Church. However, unity as a mark of the Church is not primarily this internal unity; it is the external, visible unity that flows from that inner unity. That is why unity is one of the Four Marks; the marks are supposed to be visible realities that identify the true Church and distinguish it from false sects. A unity that is ultimately invisible is of no use and cannot be the Oneness that Christ gave to the Church.
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.com/apologetics/86-contra-protestantism/461-visible-church.html

Doctrines develop, they cannot change their essence. It's impossible because God promised it would never happen. When I see the reckless accusation "doctrines of men", it's either a gross misunderstanding, ignorance, or blind prejudice. All doctrines flow from the written and/or oral preaching of the Apostles. There are no "doctrines of men" in the CC.

"Development is how Catholics try to explain away their doctrinal novelties,
Christian doctrine was given once and for all, completely developed, by Jesus Christ"
Initial reply
Development of doctrine is common to all kinds of Christians; it happened in history with regard to doctrines agreed upon by all, and it is also seen in the Bible.
Extensive reply
The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men’s understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.
read more here
 

heretoeternity

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The Roman "church" does not follow the first four of God's commandments, how could it possibly be "the church", as followers of the Roman religious system (who call themselves "catholics") keep on mistakenly defending. As Jesus said "by their fruits they will be known" Matthew 7...
 

Mungo

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heretoeternity said:
The Roman "church" does not follow the first four of God's commandments, how could it possibly be "the church", as followers of the Roman religious system (who call themselves "catholics") keep on mistakenly defending. As Jesus said "by their fruits they will be known" Matthew 7...
:popcorn: Waiting for some evidence.

Could be a long wait. :popcorn:
 

heretoeternity

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Mungo said:
:popcorn: Waiting for some evidence.

Could be a long wait. :popcorn:
You funny little caricatures look like a priest at a Roman church drinking the wine, after about four "masses"..lol...
Now the issues, mungo are you familiar with the Ten commandments? Probably not...anyway, so as not to overtax you, look up the first four and we will study and see how the Roman "catholic" religious organization breaches these: God says in His ten commandments:
-Have no other God's before me...so what does Rome do? Call their priests "Father" and to top it all off call their pope "Holy Father" These are names reserved for God alone..Jesus condemns calling humans "Father" in Matthew 23. in the spiritual sense it is the name reserved for God alone.
-Make no graven images...the Roman regilious organizations are loaded with statues of every conceivable kind, and people are expected to pray to statues of Mary, Peter, dead "saints"
-Do not take God's name in vain....every time you use the term "Father" or Holy Father" you are using the name of God in vain. Does the term blasphemy mean anything to you or the Roman "catholic" religious organization? Apparently not.
-Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy......Rome decided they wanted to keep the day of the sun god, their sunday, the first day of the week instead, so without Biblical authority changed the day for their followers to sunday..now 95 percent of the Biblically illiterate protestants follow them in keepng the non Biblical day of "sunday", contrary to God's law...

If you need more help just say so, I will be happy to give you lots more information...in the meantime study this carefully, if you are serious about being a true Christian.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
kepha31 said:
Though Protestants and Catholics have many points of disagreement, it seems the most fundamental area of conflict has to do with the nature of the Church. Is the Church a visible, physically identifiable reality with an institutional government that keeps guard over doctrine and discipline, or is it a kind of invisible, loose union of various communities of Christians with different opinions on doctrinal questions and no institutional reality beyond the local level? Both Protestants and Catholics acknowledge the Church has an invisible, supernatural element; Catholics, however, assert that in addition the Church has a physical, visible side - that it is physically identifiable on this earth. Protestants, following Luther, tend to view the Church as a fundamentally invisible reality. In this essay, we will examine the biblical passages that point to the Church as a physical, institutional reality in conformity with Catholic Tradition.
Please keep in mind, we do not deny that the Church is also a spiritual-invisible reality, nor do we assert that salvation is strictly predicated only of those who are formally part of the physical Church structure - although we confess such an arrangement to be normative. In emphasizing the physical-institutional aspect of the Church, we do not mean to deny the invisible. Rather, as Christ Himself was both God and man, divine and human, so the Church, too, is a kind of incarnation, divine and supernatural while also physical and institutional.
"And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt. 16:17-19)

As Catholics we are extremely used to citing this passage in context of discussions about the primacy of St. Peter and the prerogatives of the papal office. However, we often overlook the broader implications of the verse: the establishment of a visible hierarchy. When Jesus Christ institutes His Church, He institutes a physical authority structure that will govern that Church. This verse should be read in parallel with Luke 10:16, when Christ says to all the Apostles, "Whoever hears you hears me, and whoever hears me hears Him who sent me." The point is Jesus establishes His Church not just to preach, but to have a real authority, the very authority with which Christ is sent by the Father. This is why the Apostles, always in union with Peter, have the duty not only to preach but also the authority to bind and loose.

We will begin in the Gospel of Matthew:
In short, a Church with authority to bind and loose must have a physical presence; an amorphous, spiritual communion of all believers might be able to preach, but not bind and loose. This 'spiritual Church' model does not fit very well with our Lord's description of the powers the Church is to have. This is why Protestants have traditionally struggled with these verses about binding and loosing; once we presume that the Church is purely spiritual, "binding and loosing" can only have a spiritualized meaning, which is why many Protestants interpret this verse to mean that individual believers have authority to "bind" evil spirits in the name of Jesus. This makes little sense for a few reasons:
First, it makes sense why one would "bind" and evil spirit, but when would you ever need to "loosen" one? [1]
Second, "binding and loosing" in the rabbinical jargon Jesus is using always refers to the binding and loosing of the faithful to certain disciplines, never to spiritual powers.
Third, Jesus says whatsoever you bind "on earth" shall be bound in heaven; he is not referring to the spirit world, but to the world of men. The traditional understanding, that the power of binding and loosing refers to the authority of the Church's legitimate pastors to bind believers in matters of dogma and discipline, fits the passage much better. Because this binding and loosing is also "bound in heaven", it is authoritative - and only a physically constituted authority structure can bind and loose authoritatively. Otherwise, we are left with mere opinion and interpretation.
"He that hears you, hears me; and he that despises you, despises me; and he that despises me, despises him that sent me" (Luke 10:16).

Like the passage about binding and loosing, this passage denotes that the preaching of the Apostles is authoritative. To hear the Apostles is to hear Christ; the preaching of the Apostles is the agency through which faith in Christ is born. "And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me" (John 17:20); St. Paul says the same, "Faith then comes by hearing; and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). The word of the Apostles is life-giving; not only this, but despising the message means despising Christ, and thus God the Father. Jesus do not say,"He who does not believe the Scriptures despises me", but "He who despises you despises me." The message comes with authority. An invisible Church - a loose spiritual communion of Christians with diverse beliefs about everything from baptism to salvation to the Rapture to the morality of contraception - cannot preach an authoritative message. There is no common witness. Only a message coming from something that has an institutional nature can possess this kind of authority. (authority is not a dirty word)

"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Matt. 18:15-17).

The Church must have a visible structure in order for someone to "tell it to the Church." It could be argued that this simply means to take the problem to the community, but that it says nothing about the nature or structure of that community. We could respond by noting the authority our Lord gives to that community. "If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and tax collector." Our Lord expresses a kind of disbelief that someone would refuse to listen to the Church and proscribes a kind of excommunication if they refuse their obedience. A loose spiritual communion cannot command this kind of obedience. The proscription for shunning, "let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector", would make no sense in such a spiritual communion because a person who did not like the judgment of one "church" could just go down the road to another that would give him a favorable judgment. The authority Jesus invests in the Church is meaningless unless there is one Church and unless it has some sort of physical constitution.
“I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (John 17:20-21).
Here we see that the Church's unity is the source of the credibility of her message. The oneness of the Church with the Father and the Son is the reason "that the world may believe." The world is to believe based on the unity of the Church, that unity must be visible - otherwise, how would the world behold it? It is true that the Church could have an internal, moral unity, but this alone is not sufficient. It is true that the essence of the Church's unity is an internal reality based on the union of the Father with the Son that Christ bestowed upon His Church. However, unity as a mark of the Church is not primarily this internal unity; it is the external, visible unity that flows from that inner unity. That is why unity is one of the Four Marks; the marks are supposed to be visible realities that identify the true Church and distinguish it from false sects. A unity that is ultimately invisible is of no use and cannot be the Oneness that Christ gave to the Church.
http://unamsanctamcatholicam.com/apologetics/86-contra-protestantism/461-visible-church.html

Doctrines develop, they cannot change their essence. It's impossible because God promised it would never happen. When I see the reckless accusation "doctrines of men", it's either a gross misunderstanding, ignorance, or blind prejudice. All doctrines flow from the written and/or oral preaching of the Apostles. There are no "doctrines of men" in the CC.

Initial reply
Development of doctrine is common to all kinds of Christians; it happened in history with regard to doctrines agreed upon by all, and it is also seen in the Bible.
Extensive reply
The Catholic Church holds that there was one apostolic deposit, given by Jesus Christ to the apostles, and that there has been no essential change in that. The Catholic Church preserves this apostolic deposit (Jude 3), and is the Guardian of it. But, on the other hand, there is a growth in clarity of those truths, and men’s understanding increases. One must keep this distinction in mind when discussing development.
read more here
All of the above is all well and good, IF the church remains faithful. If however the church apostatizes from the truth then your 'binding and loosening" will be of no avail...God will not hear. Your binding upon men certain dogma is just that...teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.
The claim is that there has been no change in the initial deposit given by Christ to the apostles. First, let me refute the assumption made that what Jesus gave was a "deposit." What He taught His disciples, (I include Paul in this) was not a deposit, that needed further deposits in order to make full that which is required for salvation. Whatever Jesus said,taight, ad accomplished through His life, death, and resurrection, is sufficient for salvation.
2 Tim.3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Faith in the atoning blood of Christ is all sufficient for salvation. Rome's ongoing so-called deposits through church councils have not made salvation more sure, but more doubtful. Added to the faith required by the believer for the Catholic, is now added pilgrimages, the earning of forgiveness through doing some great thing like attending mass on a certain day of a certain year. By accomplishing some great task in order to draw from the graces earned by others in order to gain grace for oneself. And you dare claim that this nonsense is part of an unchanged doctrine given the apostles? That 'drawing' of 'grace' from saints and Mary and dead people is paganism regurgitated in the guise of Christianity. It is fake, a counterfeit, a false religion far removed from true faith and true Christianity. It is one of the prime reasons why the reformers charged the system of Catholicism with being Antichrist. Replacing the true Christ with a false system of salvation. Instead of faith, you have replaced the gift of salvation with a salvation one must earn through penance....pilgrimages....attending mass and partaking of sacraments. What Luther discovered by reading the gospels, that salvation and forgiveness of sin is a free gift and not one to be earned by self flagellation and self inflicted pain, suffering, or by doing some tedious task like climbing "Pilate's staircase" on ones knees, is a lesson ALL Catholics need to learn. And the difference between the Catholic version of salvation by grace through faith and the Protestant version of salvation by grace through faith, is a difference Protestants have forgotten, and need to relearn.
Salvation is a gift. You cannot earn gifts. And the gift of salvation comes to individuals, and it comes not through the benefits earned by the holiness of others, nor through the authority of a system of priesthood who claim the authority to "dispense' that gift according to its own fallible judgement. Salvation comes to individuals through faith in a High Priest now officiating in the heavenly sanctuary as our sole Mediator. And it comes solely through Him, who gives His own Holy Spirit to all that believe and receive Him. Then they will seek like-minded believers to fellowship, and to cooperate with in order to reach a world lost in sin and devoid of hope. Hope is not revivied by laying a greater burden upon souls already weighed down with guilt and sorrow. No, hope comes from the offer of a forgiveing loving Savior Who even now is pleading "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.". Matthew 11:28
But what does the church do? And I am not speaking only to Catholicism here...many churches are guilty of this. We place our own demands on the believer. We interpose certain requirements superfluous to Biblical truth. We preach the love, grace, and mercy of a loving Father God and then place a whole raft of conditions on our salvation. And we go to the church seeking that what God has promised. We look to man to solve that which Jesus has already solved. "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5:40
 

kerwin

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heretoeternity said:
...
-Have no other God's before me...so what does Rome do? Call their priests "Father" and to top it all off call their pope "Holy Father" These are names reserved for God alone..Jesus condemns calling humans "Father" in Matthew 23. in the spiritual sense it is the name reserved for God alone.
...

I know you are referring to Jesus' words "Let no man call you Father, for you have one Father in heaven" but does every other one of your readers?
 

heretoeternity

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kerwin said:
...
-Have no other God's before me...so what does Rome do? Call their priests "Father" and to top it all off call their pope "Holy Father" These are names reserved for God alone..Jesus condemns calling humans "Father" in Matthew 23. in the spiritual sense it is the name reserved for God alone.
...

I know you are referring to Jesus' words "Let no man call you Father, for you have one Father in heaven" but does every other one of your readers?
Your obviously have trouble reading......read it all...if it is not too much for you1
 

kerwin

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heretoeternity said:
Your obviously have trouble reading......read it all...if it is not too much for you1
You are correct I missed it though it does not mean "father" is reserved for God alone as it is used in later passages by the apostles.

I interpret it as meaning that Christians are not to use titles within the church but instead just address each others as equals no matter what position is served. That is the practice they followed.

If I am correct and the evidence is that I am then it follow the RCC does violate that instruction but that is not the same as placing something or someone before God.

Of course any sin is lawbreaking.
 

Mungo

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heretoeternity said:
You funny little caricatures look like a priest at a Roman church drinking the wine, after about four "masses"..lol...
Now the issues, mungo are you familiar with the Ten commandments? Probably not...anyway, so as not to overtax you, look up the first four and we will study and see how the Roman "catholic" religious organization breaches these: God says in His ten commandments:
-Have no other God's before me...so what does Rome do? Call their priests "Father" and to top it all off call their pope "Holy Father" These are names reserved for God alone..Jesus condemns calling humans "Father" in Matthew 23. in the spiritual sense it is the name reserved for God alone.
-Make no graven images...the Roman regilious organizations are loaded with statues of every conceivable kind, and people are expected to pray to statues of Mary, Peter, dead "saints"
-Do not take God's name in vain....every time you use the term "Father" or Holy Father" you are using the name of God in vain. Does the term blasphemy mean anything to you or the Roman "catholic" religious organization? Apparently not.
-Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy......Rome decided they wanted to keep the day of the sun god, their sunday, the first day of the week instead, so without Biblical authority changed the day for their followers to sunday..now 95 percent of the Biblically illiterate protestants follow them in keepng the non Biblical day of "sunday", contrary to God's law...

If you need more help just say so, I will be happy to give you lots more information...in the meantime study this carefully, if you are serious about being a true Christian.

"-Have no other God's before me...so what does Rome do? Call their priests "Father" and to top it all off call their pope "Holy Father" These are names reserved for God alone..Jesus condemns calling humans "Father" in Matthew 23. in the spiritual sense it is the name reserved for God alone."

Been through all this before but here we go again.
Catholics do not call their priests "father"; they address them as father. Not the same thing.
Catholics do not call the Pope "Holy Father";, they address him as" Holy Father". Not the same thing.

"-Make no graven images...the Roman regilious organizations are loaded with statues of every conceivable kind, and people are expected to pray to statues of Mary, Peter, dead "saints""
That is not the second commandment. It is part of the first. By splitting the first commandment into two you distort it's meaning.
The proper commandment is;
"'You shall have no other gods before me. "'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them…..” (Dt 5:7-9).

The commandment is to have no other gods before the one true God. It then goes on to explain what constitutes having other god before the one true God. And that is making images and serving them, not merely making images. If it were only making images then God breaks his own commandments by ordering the making of images (e.g. Ex 25:18 & Num 21:8).

-Do not take God's name in vain....every time you use the term "Father" or Holy Father" you are using the name of God in vain. Does the term blasphemy mean anything to you or the Roman "catholic" religious organization? Apparently not.
Not true- as explained above.

-Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy......Rome decided they wanted to keep the day of the sun god, their sunday, the first day of the week instead, so without Biblical authority changed the day for their followers to sunday..now 95 percent of the Biblically illiterate protestants follow them in keepng the non Biblical day of "sunday", contrary to God's law...
The instruction to worship on a Saturday was abrogated along with all the other ceremonial and social laws of the Mosaic Covenant. The early Christians worshipped on the first day of the week (Sunday).

Actually the Ten Commandments as a legal code was only ever valid for the Israelites and was only introduced at SInai as part of the Sinai Covenant.
"Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive this day."(Dt 5:3)

Gentiles were never part of that Covenant (Eph 2:12), and, as scripture makes clear. Christians are not bound by the Mosaic Law (Acts 15).
“For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances… “(Eph 2:14-15)

Now, which tiny bit of my reply are you going to pick on and whilst ignoring all the rest?
 

kerwin

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heretoeternity said:
What did Jesus say about the subject..read it again until you get it right.
I assume you are addressing me.

He said more than one thing but it is the Spirit of the words you need to learn from.

Matthew 23:5-12 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

"But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." is the conclusion.

"But all their works they do for to be seen of men" is the introduction.
 

bbyrd009

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EMPEROR CONSTANTINE
"Most of the Bible is an adaptation of the very ancient and quite global wisdom tradition that celebrated the exuberant freedom and autonomy of every human individual (Jude 1:24) and the subsequent psychodiversity of the entire human realm, whereas most formal Christianity is an adaptation of Roman Imperial Theology, which was designed to control the masses and make them compliantly stand in neat rows, waiting for orders in solemn uniformity.

Emperor Constantine famously made Christianity the Roman state religion, but Constantine's favored deity was and always remained Sol Invictus, or the Invincible Sun (hence aureoles and Christmas and all that), and many aspiring world-leaders before and since him have used the sun and its signature invincibility as their chief symbol. The sun's invincibility would be argued by the fact that nothing can stop it from moving. That is, of course, unless something even greater than the sun shows up and demonstrates this superiority by stopping the sun dead in its tracks."
Evolution, the Bible and the halting of the sun over Gibeon
 

H. Richard

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Why did the Pharisees and the people in the Jewish religion have Jesus put to death???

The same reason that the RCC had people burned at the stake. And for the same reason Calvin had Jews and Muslims burned at the stake.

Religious people love their religions and the traditions formed in that religion more than they love God.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Why did the Pharisees and the people in the Jewish religion have Jesus put to death???

The same reason that the RCC had people burned at the stake. And for the same reason Calvin had Jews and Muslims burned at the stake.

Religious people love their religions and the traditions formed in that religion more than they love God.
Would you mind explaining what the "RCC" is?
Judging by the fact that YOU started this moronic thread - something tells me that you'll get this one wrong as well . . .
 

H. Richard

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Would you mind explaining what the "RCC" is?
Judging by the fact that YOU started this moronic thread - something tells me that you'll get this one wrong as well . . .
**8

LOL

So I am moronic and wrong. Thanks for you opinion. It means so much to me.