"When did the RCC begin?"

[epostle1]

You said, "scripturally and historically proven".

Yes, the Catholic Church is the original CHURCH founded by Jesus Christ. The Church is infallible and indefectable, based on numerous biblical indications. You don't believe that so you don't believe the whole Bible, just the parts that fit your system.

Only if you read one verse in the Bible and falsely interpret it to mean Peter and only read and believe what those in the RCC have written through the years.

Peter's role as leader and spokesman for all the Apostles does not rest on one verse. It's indicated in about 70 verses throughout the NT. You just don't like them. I believe what has been handed down from the Apostles, you believe whatever you choose.

As for me, if it does evil things to people then it is evil.

So there are sinners in every church except yours? It's completely brainless to hold Catholics and Protestants today accountable for sins committed 1000 years ago. According to recent research, most the the hype around the Crusades and the Inquisition is Protestant propaganda. I would be glad to prove scholarly data that debunks Protestant myths. Don't be so naive to think the reformist revolt was all roses. Here is a link on the Protestant Inquisition, but really, it's a nowhere argument.


If you deny that the Bible came from the Catholic Church, you are forced to invent Bible origin fantasies. Guess what: it's essentially the same CHURCH today as it was in the 4th century, with the essence of doctrine unchanged. If you want to challenge historical facts, go right ahead, but back up your claims with real historians, not goofy wanna-be-preachers on you tube.

 

[heretoeternity]

Nice posting...however there are a lot of facts which cannot be ignore, where the Roman "church" departs from scripture...won't bore you with reposting these, as you know in your heart already, yet you continue to support this pagan based religious and political system....and you chose not to read Revelation 17 and 18 which is not very kind to your Babylonian based Roman organization is it?

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

Nice passage! Why did you quote it?

 

[H. Richard]

H.Richard,

Nice passage! Why did you quote it?

To show that each individual is only answerable to Jesus, not mankind.

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

I believe you mean Jesus first as we are told to obey the authorities God placed over us.

I do not use passage to make that point but I can see where you are coming from.

 

[ScaliaFan]

Nice posting...however there are a lot of facts which cannot be ignore, where the Roman "church" departs from scripture...won't bore you with reposting these, as you know in your heart already, yet you continue to support this pagan based religious and political system....and you chose not to read Revelation 17 and 18 which is not very kind to your Babylonian based Roman organization is it?

who told u it was pagan? who told you all this stuff? you are believing someone, as you would a "pope" or pretend pope...

we should question EVERYTHING... everything we have been taught b/c it is taught by humans. I have questioned the Catholic Church.. and i have studied and read many books and ... well, again, it is my experiences in life that are more enlightening vis a vis the Catholic Church and its veracity.. more than any studying. If i had never studied one theology book or even read much of the Bible.. i would still know through my experiences that the CAtholic Church is the true Church...

 

[heretoeternity]

The Bible is clear on what the Roman church is based upon, and it isn't God and Jesus....Revelation 17

 

[H. Richard]

H.Richard,

I believe you mean Jesus first as we are told to obey the authorities God placed over us.

I do not use passage to make that point but I can see where you are coming from.

Since the scriptures tell us that men will become exceeding sinful which authority do you want to place your trust in?

As for me I will only trust in the words that God has provide for us in the scriptures. There has never been a religion that is centered on faith in God. Most all have men following rules and regulations that are not even in the scriptures thinking that by doing them it will save them.

If people want to place their faith in men then that is their choice..

 

[kerwin]

H.Richard,

Ask Paul as he is the one the wrote the words in Romans 13 I am referring to. The specific government he was speaking of was the Roman Empire, which does not have a good record with Christians.

I was speaking obedience not faith, as is Paul.

 

[kerwin]

Heretoeternity,

Revelations is vague and it is so on purpose but that does not justify people using it to speak their own ideas.

I view it more as a general warning than a precise one. The RCC is only the western branch of the Catholic Church though it has extended itself into the east where it competes against its sister Catholic churches and their offspring. Some of those offspring condemn their own mothers and yet are no closer to the true gospel than they are.

 

[tom55]

Tom, perhaps you better inform the following of their error then, If they can hear you....
"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

"...pastoral intuition suggested to the Church the christianization of the notion of Sunday as "the day of the sun", which was the Roman name for the day and which is retained in some modern languages.(29) This was in order to draw the faithful away from the seduction of cults which worshipped the sun, and to direct the celebration of the day to Christ, humanity's true "sun"." John Paul II, Dies Domini, 27. The day of Christ-Light, 1998

“There was and is a command to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will however be readily said, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week, with all its duties, privileges and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask, where can the record of such a transaction be found: Not in the New Testament – absolutely not. There is no scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week.” Dr. E. T. Hiscox, author of the ‘Baptist Manual’.

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?" - D.L. MOODY, "Weighed and Wanting," page 47.
"I honestly believe that this commandment [the fourth, or Sabbath commandment] is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. 'The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath.' It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was-in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.' - Id., page 46.

If you read what Archbishop Gibbons actually wrote, instead of your partial quote, you would see that he clarifies that statement and reinforces what Christians have been practicing since the death of Jesus and what was practiced in the NT. Celebrating the resurrection of our Lord on Sunday.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27435/27435-pdf.pdf


If you read what John Paul II actually wrote about this, instead of your partial quote, you would see that the PARTIAL QUOTE you provided doesn't tell the full story. Stop being so biased, disingenuous and educate yourself by reading the documents from which you quote.

https://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1998/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_05071998_dies-domini.html

If you were to read the Baptist Manual written by Hiscox you would see that he supports Sunday worship for the same reason that all Christian Churches do. But why would you read what is actually written by someone when you can just misquote them or not fully quote them or quote them out of context???

http://spiritualforcesministry.org/pdf/standardmanualfo00hisc[1].pdf

If you were to read D.L. Moody 'Weighed and Wanting' you would see what he REALLY believes and preaches about Sunday. But heck...why read what he really said. It's much easier to misquote them to support your heretical belief.

http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/E-Books/BookScans/Moody%20-%20Weighed%20and%20wanting.pdf

 

[ScaliaFan]

The Bible is clear on what the Roman church is based upon, and it isn't God and Jesus....Revelation 17

I've read the whole Bible and CAtholicism is in there in spades

since we say opposing things.. guess we cannot rely on humans to figure such things out... time for the Church Christ founded..

 

[kerwin]

Is the RCC claiming they teach the same doctrine as when the Catholic Church became the state religion of the Roman Empire. The Greek Orthodox branch debates that claim. From what I see each major council led to changes in the church doctrine and those Catholics that attended them agreed to the doctrine that evolved from them. As a result the Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic branches of the Catholic Church hold some things in common but diverge on others. The councils themselves were held to settle disputes within the Catholic Church and there very existence reveals an evolving doctrine.

 

[H. Richard]

I've read the whole Bible and CAtholicism is in there in spades

since we say opposing things.. guess we cannot rely on humans to figure such things out... time for the Church Christ founded..

The Church is a spiritual entity, made by the will of God and built without human hands of flesh, and the head of the Church is Jesus Christ who gave his life for it. I, personally feel that no man is to be considered as head of the Church. The Church's visibility in the world is shown through Christians that profess that faith in Jesus‘ work on the cross has saved them, individually and as groups. It is not a religious organization, or building, or certain place. Read LUKE, 17:20 "The Kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, here it is, or there it is, because the kingdom of God "is" within you.

But those championing the RCC say here is their church built with the works of men who claim they have a special relationship with God that is not given to all those in Christ. This is pure rubbish.

 

[tom55]

The Church is a spiritual entity, made by the will of God and built without human hands of flesh, and the head of the Church is Jesus Christ who gave his life for it. I, personally feel that no man is to be considered as head of the Church. The Church's visibility in the world is shown through Christians that profess that faith in Jesus‘ work on the cross has saved them, individually and as groups. It is not a religious organization, or building, or certain place. Read LUKE, 17:20 "The Kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, here it is, or there it is, because the kingdom of God "is" within you.

But those championing the RCC say here is their church built with the works of men who claim they have a special relationship with God that is not given to all those in Christ. This is pure rubbish.

Scripture disagrees with you: What Church was He building? Why is Peter allowed to bind a loosen and the apostles able to forgive sins if The Church is a "spiritual entity" and isn't run by "works of men"? Even if you don't agree it is the Catholic Church He still said he was building a Church and gave men the same power He had; to forgive sins. Matthew 16:18-19, John 20:23

How do you explain away 1 Timothy 3:15 or Matthew 18:17?

Or Acts 14:23 where the appointed elders in every Church? That one line contains a bases for "organization" (elders) and 'buildings or places' (every church) which is completely OPPOSITE of what you believe.

Acts 15:4.....they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders. Three distinct groups!

Acts 15:3....being sent by the church. Who is "the church" in that passage? Would it not be people or a person with authority who sent them?

There is also mention of CHURCHES in Acts. How can you have CHURCHES but not have "buildings" or "certain places"?

What you believe is not based on scripture, is heretical and is true rubbish.

 

[FHII]

I don't have a problem with calling the Church a spiritual entity, as we humans have a spiritual side to us also. However, there is a physical Church to which Jesus is the head (Eph 1 and Eph 5 demonstrate this). Christ has given Apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers to care for it and perfect it (through teaching the faith, not works). Notice he didn't say Popes, fathers, monks, priests and nuns....

Christ is one body with many members. That is his Church. There will come a day when this flesh will be laid down and mortality will put on immortality and the Church will indeed be purely spiritual. But until then.... Yes there is a physical Church as well.

 

[heretoeternity]

Heretoeternity,

Revelations is vague and it is so on purpose but that does not justify people using it to speak their own ideas.

I view it more as a general warning than a precise one. The RCC is only the western branch of the Catholic Church though it has extended itself into the east where it competes against its sister Catholic churches and their offspring. Some of those offspring condemn their own mothers and yet are no closer to the true gospel than they are.

Revelation 17 and 18 not vague at all..read them carefully.

 

[kerwin]

Heretoeternity,

I have read them and consider them of limited importance; an afterthought of God.

 

[heretoeternity]

Heretoeternity,

I have read them and consider them of limited importance; an afterthought of God.

Interesting, how you regard the prophesies of Jesus Christ....

 

[kerwin]

Heretoeternity,

The gospel is much more important and the prophecies were indeed an afterthought that came years after the rest of the new testament and many Christians died before they were even written.

I think their purpose is more to comfort us than to forewarn us of any carnal events.