When is 'Speaking in Tongues', true versus false.

[Dave L]

Dave K: "If tongues cease at the end of the world, why would Paul mention the obvious? It's because they were to cease when the perfect word of God replaced them."
You keep ignoring the decisive fact that has been pointed out to you: tongues cease only when we seek Him "face to face (1 Corinthians 13:10, 12), that is, after His Parousia or Second Coming.

Dave L: "Paul said; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)"
Notice the Revelation would also confirm them to the end. So it does not happen at the end.

Modern academic commentaries on 1 Corinthians agree that both "the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ" refer to His Parousia or Second Coming. So the thought is that their spiritual gifts will confirm them until the end, the Second Coming. Thus 1:7 is totally consistent with 13:10-12. Since you obviously don't know Greek, you really do need to go a to university library and read some modern academic commentaries on 1 Corinthians and Revelation.

Dave L: "“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)." So he was saying the gifts would expire with the Revelation of Jesus Christ that we now know was written by John in either 60 or 90 AD."

Again, you suffer from failing to consult modern academic commentaries on the Book of Revelation. The phrase "which must soon come to pass" in 1:1 simply reflects John's belief that the Second Coming of Christ will happen "soon (22:20). You cannot find a single academic commentary on Revelation that claims the cessation of the gifts of the Spirit at the closure of the biblical canon! So the gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues continue in to the 2nd and 3rd centuries (so Irenaeus and Tertullian).

And you do not think scripture is perfect? And does not do a better job than tongues?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17)

Reports of tongues are just that. The fact is, they dropped from Christendom around the time Paul implied they would. If they were real, the whole church would have them, not just a few questionable sects.

 

[Berserk]

Dave L: "And you do not think scripture is perfect? And does not do a better job than tongues?"

Scripture is not perfect in the sense that it is complete revelation. It does not address many issues like abortion, which, however, is specifically condemned by the noncanonical Didache (c. 95 AD), a Christian book written in the NT era. Words of prophecy and messages in tongues perform a service that the Bible cannot, namely to address particular needs in modern churches and by discerning the spiritual conditions of those churches.

Dave L.: "Reports of tongues are just that. The fact is, they dropped from Christendom around the time Paul implied they would. If they were real, the whole church would have them, not just a few questionable sects."

You keep asserting what has already been refuted. The continuance of speaking in tongues is reported by Irenaeus and Tertullian as continuing into the 2nd and 3rd century and is not limited to questionable sects. And you keep ignoring the fact that much of the Corinthians glossolalia was of the flesh. And you are obviously unaware of the spectacular paranormal verifications of some modern messages in tongues that I will describe in another thread.

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom All,

As for me, I personally agree with this post below:

Moreover, today's tongues are learned and coached. The originals were spontaneous and came only through an apostle's hands, or through the two outpourings. Also, first century tongue speakers were edified because they knew what they were saying. Today's tongue speakers do not know what they are saying.

When I was seeking the gift of tongues, which I was told should come with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was taught to make it up for myself! I was taught, by separate sources, to start blabbering any words, as apparently the Spirit couldn't talk through me unless I done this, and then I would eventually "find" my tongue. Strange advice that never set well with me.

It seems that back in the day, and from the others who do so today, tongues is more spontaneous. They simply try to speak but the language that comes out of their mouth is foreign to them. No where have I found in Scripture (with the exception of one arguable comment) that the tongue is repetitive and "babbling", but rather a genuine language, exalting Yah.

As Paul said, tongues without interpretation is fruitless and also a counter-witness to the lost. Some might say say "But when I'm praying in tongues, it's personal, from me to God alone". And yet, it isn't quiet at all when it happens at church meetings or large prayer meetings. It used to be a counter-witness to me when I saw such things. Rather than amazed, I was disappointed.

I wonder if some use this way of tongues (the repetitive style) as a subconscious excuse in not actually praying Yahweh... For at times, when we could lift our hands and say "Almighty Yahweh, please guide us how to handle [this situation] with wisdom, in the name of Jesus", many instead say "Kura-bos-sama, kura-bos-sama!". In this way, some do not praise the Father at such moments either. Swapping innocent, simple words with empty, complex ones.

Tongues has been taught as the "sign of the Spirit" within you, which is incorrect. Tongues was common among the first believers, but surely that was necessary in a world where they would be spreading the Word without the modern advantages we have today? It makes sense for that particular gift to have priority - based on the need of the Body.

I hope you don't read me wrong here. I'm not meaning to be rude to anyone and I'm certainly not discrediting the actual gift of tongues. But we have to be honest. This is a topic which many have doubt upon and that shouldn't be the reaction of believers in the presence of a miracle!

Finally, for the many that claim to have tongues, surely they should react tenderly when being questioned on it rather than immediately defensive. "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." ~ 1 Corinthians 13:1. Love never fails. Beyond whatever gift we have, if we are questioned on it, all that ultimately matters is love towards each other. Love always trumps tongues.

Love & Shalom

 

[Dave L]

Dave L: "And you do not think scripture is perfect? And does not do a better job than tongues?"

Scripture is not perfect in the sense that it is complete revelation. It does not address many issues like abortion, which, however, is specifically condemned by the noncanonical Didache (c. 95 AD), a Christian book written in the NT era. Words of prophecy and messages in tongues perform a service that the Bible cannot, namely to address particular needs in modern churches and by discerning the spiritual conditions of those churches.

Dave L.: "Reports of tongues are just that. The fact is, they dropped from Christendom around the time Paul implied they would. If they were real, the whole church would have them, not just a few questionable sects."

You keep asserting what has already been refuted. The continuance of speaking in tongues is reported by Irenaeus and Tertullian as continuing into the 2nd and 3rd century and is not limited to questionable sects. And you keep ignoring the fact that much of the Corinthians glossolalia was of the flesh. And you are obviously unaware of the spectacular paranormal verifications of some modern messages in tongues that I will describe in another thread.

You do not appear to be well balanced.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Shalom All,

As for me, I personally agree with this post below:



When I was seeking the gift of tongues, which I was told should come with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was taught to make it up for myself! I was taught, by separate sources, to start blabbering any words, as apparently the Spirit couldn't talk through me unless I done this, and then I would eventually "find" my tongue. Strange advice that never set well with me.

It seems that back in the day, and from the others who do so today, tongues is more spontaneous. They simply try to speak but the language that comes out of their mouth is foreign to them. No where have I found in Scripture (with the exception of one arguable comment) that the tongue is repetitive and "babbling", but rather a genuine language, exalting Yah.

As Paul said, tongues without interpretation is fruitless and also a counter-witness to the lost. Some might say say "But when I'm praying in tongues, it's personal, from me to God alone". And yet, it isn't quiet at all when it happens at church meetings or large prayer meetings. It used to be a counter-witness to me when I saw such things. Rather than amazed, I was disappointed.

I wonder if some use this way of tongues (the repetitive style) as a subconscious excuse in not actually praying Yahweh... For at times, when we could lift our hands and say "Almighty Yahweh, please guide us how to handle [this situation] with wisdom, in the name of Jesus", many instead say "Kura-bos-sama, kura-bos-sama!". In this way, some do not praise the Father at such moments either. Swapping innocent, simple words with empty, complex ones.

Tongues has been taught as the "sign of the Spirit" within you, which is incorrect. Tongues was common among the first believers, but surely that was necessary in a world where they would be spreading the Word without the modern advantages we have today? It makes sense for that particular gift to have priority - based on the need of the Body.

I hope you don't read me wrong here. I'm not meaning to be rude to anyone and I'm certainly not discrediting the actual gift of tongues. But we have to be honest. This is a topic which many have doubt upon and that shouldn't be the reaction of believers in the presence of a miracle!

Finally, for the many that claim to have tongues, surely they should react tenderly when being questioned on it rather than immediately defensive. "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." ~ 1 Corinthians 13:1. Love never fails. Beyond whatever gift we have, if we are questioned on it, all that ultimately matters is love towards each other. Love always trumps tongues.

Love & Shalom

May I ask how you knew you had been baptized in the Spirit? My greatest concern for the Church is there are many Christians walking around and have never received the Spirit. They are dead men walking. This is even in Pentecostal circles. I can tell when someone is faking it, which is what you were told to do to start. NO! It is more than you having faith that you've received. You KNOW it. After all it is the all-powerful Holy Spirit that consumes you. It is not head knowledge, but experiential knowledge. Do you have any of the other supernatural manifestations of the Spirit, either sign, Mark 16:16-18 (personal, all given to all individual believers) or gift, 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 (to some, not all, for ministry and the profit of all)?

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom sister

May I ask how you knew you had been baptized in the Spirit?

Thanks for the question.

I knew because the fruit of the Spirit was manifesting in my actions, mind and will. No longer did Scripture studies, worship or thinking of Yahweh all day seem like work, but it was and is a true joy.

There's almost a fountain feeling, deep inside me, erupting with joy (note: not necessarily happiness) and such peace that cannot be shaken by external circumstances. Praise Yahweh for this precious gift of the Spirit!

I agree with you though. Many walk around without the Spirit and struggle alone. I was like this too for 15 years before it happened for me. Christians need to seek this baptism above all things. Before anything else. It is truly life changing and life giving.

Love & Shalom

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Shalom sister



Thanks for the question.

I knew because the fruit of the Spirit was manifesting in my actions, mind and will. No longer did Scripture studies, worship or thinking of Yahweh all day seem like work, but it was and is a true joy.

There's almost a fountain feeling, deep inside me, erupting with joy (note: not necessarily happiness) and such peace that cannot be shaken by external circumstances. Praise Yahweh for this precious gift of the Spirit!

I agree with you though. Many walk around without the Spirit and struggle alone. I was like this too for 15 years before it happened for me. Christians need to seek this baptism above all things. Before anything else. It is truly life changing and life giving.

Love & Shalom

Yes, those are all signs of having the Spirit. The major one, of course, is being free from the desire to commit willful sins of lawlessness, especially sexual sins, lying, stealing and murder.

 

[quietthinker]

Shalom All,

As for me, I personally agree with this post below:



When I was seeking the gift of tongues, which I was told should come with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I was taught to make it up for myself! I was taught, by separate sources, to start blabbering any words, as apparently the Spirit couldn't talk through me unless I done this, and then I would eventually "find" my tongue. Strange advice that never set well with me.

It seems that back in the day, and from the others who do so today, tongues is more spontaneous. They simply try to speak but the language that comes out of their mouth is foreign to them. No where have I found in Scripture (with the exception of one arguable comment) that the tongue is repetitive and "babbling", but rather a genuine language, exalting Yah.

As Paul said, tongues without interpretation is fruitless and also a counter-witness to the lost. Some might say say "But when I'm praying in tongues, it's personal, from me to God alone". And yet, it isn't quiet at all when it happens at church meetings or large prayer meetings. It used to be a counter-witness to me when I saw such things. Rather than amazed, I was disappointed.

I wonder if some use this way of tongues (the repetitive style) as a subconscious excuse in not actually praying Yahweh... For at times, when we could lift our hands and say "Almighty Yahweh, please guide us how to handle [this situation] with wisdom, in the name of Jesus", many instead say "Kura-bos-sama, kura-bos-sama!". In this way, some do not praise the Father at such moments either. Swapping innocent, simple words with empty, complex ones.

Tongues has been taught as the "sign of the Spirit" within you, which is incorrect. Tongues was common among the first believers, but surely that was necessary in a world where they would be spreading the Word without the modern advantages we have today? It makes sense for that particular gift to have priority - based on the need of the Body.

I hope you don't read me wrong here. I'm not meaning to be rude to anyone and I'm certainly not discrediting the actual gift of tongues. But we have to be honest. This is a topic which many have doubt upon and that shouldn't be the reaction of believers in the presence of a miracle!

Finally, for the many that claim to have tongues, surely they should react tenderly when being questioned on it rather than immediately defensive. "If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." ~ 1 Corinthians 13:1. Love never fails. Beyond whatever gift we have, if we are questioned on it, all that ultimately matters is love towards each other. Love always trumps tongues.

Love & Shalom

My experiences and view concur with what you're saying Zephanyahu. In fact at one juncture in my journey I tried the babbling words without any encouragement to see what would happen. Sure enough, within a short period it just flowed as if automatic. I was quiet surprised but in myself I knew it was fake, ie not a genuine language.

I might add, the human mind has an incredible capacity to generate all manner of phenomena. At one stage in my journey I did a Vipassana 'course'. A ten day retreat in total silence meditating on ones haunches eleven hours a day and preferably motionless. Towards the eighth or ninth day I was able with my thoughts to direct sensations in 'tracks' both on the exterior and interior of my body. For example, if my thoughts focused on lets say the top of my head and swept down my body to my toes in the space of a second, a sensation would shoot along the line of thought similar you might say to an electrical charge. I could do this as often and long as I chose very easily.

I'm telling you this to highlight the mind's capacity for the unusual and I put much of what is deemed as speaking in tongues into that category.
It has nothing to do with the Spirit of God. I would even go so far as to say this stuff is promoted by the enemy.

 

[amadeus]

Tongues today are not even close to the originals. If they were genuine, the whole church would speak in them, not just a couple of sects with questionable origins. Moreover, today's tongues are learned and coached. The originals were spontaneous and came only through an apostle's hands, or through the two outpourings. Also, first century tongue speakers were edified because they knew what they were saying. Today's tongue speakers do not know what they are saying.

There you go again lumping people all together based on your studies and beliefs rather than listening to God now. As a daily tongue talker for these many years I know everything that God needs for me to know of what I am saying when I am talking to Him using the gift He gave me. You would have me renounce the gift based on your experience and studies and conclusions rather than to be obedient to what He has spoke to my heart more than once.

Give God the glory!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I was quiet surprised but in myself I knew it was fake, ie not a genuine language.

Wouldn't it be sad if they were real, but like the scriptures say, you didn't know what you were saying? So you threw them away like a piece of trash.

 

[quietthinker]

Wouldn't it be sad if they were real, but like the scriptures say, you didn't know what you were saying? So you threw them away like a piece of trash.

like I said, I knew it wasn't real. The scripture that says, 'the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets' confirms this.

One of the great deceptions of the last days is and will be is what is deemed spiritual phenomena. Understanding what comes from where has been laid out clearly in the scriptures so that none who are honest seekers for truth may be deceived.
Those who are not will be left to the deceptions which they love.

 

[Deborah_]

And you do not think scripture is perfect? And does not do a better job than tongues?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17)

Reports of tongues are just that. The fact is, they dropped from Christendom around the time Paul implied they would. If they were real, the whole church would have them, not just a few questionable sects.

Scripture and tongues have different functions. So Scripture does not replace tongues. When Paul wrote to Timothy, the Scriptures he was referring to were largely the Old Testament - which the first Christians combined with the teaching of the apostles. The New Testament is the teaching of the apostles written down. Tongues are - and have always been - additional to both! And the functions of Scripture (doctrine, reproof, etc) are not what tongues are for.

And once again, how often does it need to be said that the whole church does have them. They're not confined to "a few questionable sects"!

 

[Pearl]

1stCenturyLady said: ↑
May I ask how you knew you had been baptized in the Spirit?

Many years ago when I was a very new Christian in the Church of England we were being taught about the necessity of being baptised in the Holy Spirit and my husband asked one of the older men, 'How will we know?' The man smiled and said, 'Oh, you'll know.' And we did. And then we read the book, 'When The Spirit Comes' and wanted that Spirit baptism for everybody as we saw how vital it was

 

[Dave L]

Scripture and tongues have different functions. So Scripture does not replace tongues. When Paul wrote to Timothy, the Scriptures he was referring to were largely the Old Testament - which the first Christians combined with the teaching of the apostles. The New Testament is the teaching of the apostles written down. Tongues are - and have always been - additional to both! And the functions of Scripture (doctrine, reproof, etc) are not what tongues are for.

And once again, how often does it need to be said that the whole church does have them. They're not confined to "a few questionable sects"!

Tongues today are not the first century gift for many reasons. 1) they came only through the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. 2) the speakers knew exactly what they were saying and were edified. The needed to interpret so others could understand and be edified. 3) Paul said they would cease by the time John wrote Revelation. History shows they expired as foretold. And some other reasons that conflict with the Azusa Street descriptions of their supposed experience.

 

[Dave L]

There you go again lumping people altogether based on your studies and beliefs rather than listening to God now. As a daily tongue talker for these many years I know everything that God needs for me to know of what I am saying when I am talking to Him using the gift He gave me. You would have me renounce the gift based on your experience and studies and conclusions rather than to be than be obedient to what He has spoke to my heart more than once.

Give God the glory!

Many different religions speak in tongues, even voodoo. And people get a buzz from it. But if you study first century tongues in the bible, they are vastly different from what people think they have today. I used to speak in tongues too so this is more experience than armchair opinion. Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction

 

[1stCenturyLady]

like I said, I knew it wasn't real. The scripture that says, 'the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets' confirms this.

One of the great deceptions of the last days is and will be is what is deemed spiritual phenomena. Understanding what comes from where has been laid out clearly in the scriptures so that none who are honest seekers for truth may be deceived.
Those who are not will be left to the deceptions which they love.

Not everyone is a prophet. And from what you are saying, you are definitely not!

What you are now describing in the last days will be demonic supernatural phenomena from psychics and witchcraft, haters of God, not lovers of God. The testing of the spirits have to do what they believe about Jesus, and who they say He is. 1 John 4:1-3. To say what you are saying is bordering on blasphemy against God, without the fear of the Lord.

 

[Ezra]

My greatest concern for the Church is there are many Christians walking around and have never received the Spirit. They are dead men walking.

may i ask how you can be a christian and not have the holy spirit? since it is a spiritual birth

 

[amadeus]

Many different religions speak in tongues, even voodoo. And people get a buzz from it. But if you study first century tongues in the bible, they are vastly different from what people think they have today. I used to speak in tongues too so this is more experience than armchair opinion. Speaking in Tongues: Glossalalia and Stress Reduction

You have essentially said this to me previously and I don't expect you to suddenly jump over to my side, [which I believe to be God's side], but at least ease up on declaring all tongue talkers as false or to be treated as practitioners of witchcraft. I know yours is not only an armchair opinion but that still does make the blanket condemnation right either. You compare what you have seen today in many tongue talkers with 1st century tongue talkers as if that were the end of the conversation yet you were not there then not do you know 1st hand of my experience now. Not everyone approaches God in the same way even though all who approach Him do so through His Son. We, those of us who really have a measure of the faith He has given and of which he requires are different parts of or are to be different parts of the Body of Christ. Who but God can know who all of those parts are and what correction if any is needed for each one in order for them to properly fit into the Body subject to the Head?

Walk with God as you will and as you can and I will leave you to that so long as you don't open the Door for something else, but don't insist that no one else may also be correct according to God even though you cannot see it. Leave such condemnation where it belongs.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John :17-19

 

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom quietthinker,

Thank you for your comments.

I might add, the human mind has an incredible capacity to generate all manner of phenomena.

Indeed, this is true. For many years I studied various disciplines within psychology. With that viewpoint you could argue that the manifestations of some tongues are a subconscious automation. You can experiment with this yourself, playing a game with a child or an atheist friend.

Leaving that aside, let's just look at the matter logically for a moment...

In any language there are simple sounds and quick staccato phrases - even when the language itself flows smoothly. However, with the manifestation of some tongues what we hear are repetitive phrases that sound "very foreign" and complicated, and they always have multiple syllables.

For example, we might hear "Kuru-pa-tei-ka, kuru-pa-tei-ka, anan-nan burri pa-tei-ka" (I just made this up). Now, this is how foreign languages can sound to us - very complex, cool and impressive. But, the common theme with my example and what we hear in church is the absence of simplicity. For example, it would be rare to hear a tongue sounding like "Popo stum to dok". Maybe because it doesn't sound as impressive to the speaker or others? Whatever the reason, in any number of TV broadcasts or youtube videos, the tongues we hear usually have many multiple syllables, repetitive sounds to connect phrases, no pauses, and no dynamic of emphasis on words - as we would expect.

Now, the argument against this is always going to be "Well, we could be speaking the language of angels or a language that's little known or extinct!" Granted. But why such a dramatic lack of the languages that we DO know? If Paul said tongues must have interpretation, isn't it okay that some are a little weary at these unknown languages? I think so.

Repetitive chanting sounds are found in other religions and, as I mentioned, there is also a psychological argument to explain them also. So we have to be aware that all we hear today might not be genuine, although I'm not discrediting the speaker's heart or loyalty to Yahweh. However, the tongues we typically hear today do work as a counter-witness. Without interpretation, non-believers think Christians are mad and they want no part in it. I have witnessed this for myself! It's just as Paul predicted: "So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?" ~ 1 Corinthians 14:23. Oye! Let tongues never be spoken aloud again if it keeps out the lost! What profit is there to pray in tongues are the cost of another's commitment to Yahweh?

Therefore, if there is no interpreter for our "angel language" we should take Paul's advice: "I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." ~ 1 Corinthians 14:19. Now, if we don't do this or feel we shouldn't, aren't we running the risk of having pride in our gift (if it is a gift)?

Forgive me, I have put forward a strong argument against the tongues we hear today. I've had bad experiences surrounding this matter, maybe for my good, maybe at my detriment.

My heart isn't to insult anyone over this matter, but rather to share an interesting point of view. The actual gift of tongues is a wonderful gift! Those who have been taught or subconsciously created their own language are not at fault really. But if you have a "gift" in use, that is contradicting the Word or advice of the Apostles, it's wise to reassess your stance. If the gift is true, the Spirit will confirm it. If not, you have gained further clarity on the matter. It's a win-win.

Love & Shalom

 

[Dave L]

You have essentially said this to me previously and I don't expect you to suddenly jump over to my side, [which I believe to be God's side], but at least ease up on declaring all tongue talkers as false or to be treated as practitioners of witchcraft. I know yours is not only an armchair opinion but that still does make the blanket condemnation right either. You compare what you have seen today in many tongue talkers with 1st century tongue talkers as if that were the end of the conversation yet you were not there then not do you know 1st hand of my experience now. Not everyone approaches God in the same way even though all who approach Him do so through His Son. We, those of us who really have a measure of the faith He has given and of which he requires are different parts of or are to be different parts of the Body of Christ. Who but God can know who all of those parts are and what correction if any is needed for each one in order for them to properly fit into the Body subject to the Head?

Walk with God as you will and as you can and I will leave you to that so long as you don't open the Door for something else, but don't insist that no one else may also be correct according to God even though you cannot see it. Leave such condemnation where it belongs.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John :17-19

If it doesn't come from God according to scripture, where does it come from?