Luke 14
[sup]27[/sup] And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
What do you think?
[sup]27[/sup] And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
What do you think?
When Jesus says...
- Thread starter Prentis
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No more than this passage...Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
(Luk 12:33)
This is a command of Jesus to his little flock. Are you doing it Prentis?? ...different dispensation.
(Luk 12:33)
This is a command of Jesus to his little flock. Are you doing it Prentis?? ...different dispensation.
So does that mean we can get the same benefits the disciples did without the cost they had to pay?
Can we have the treasure in heaven without laying our riches there? Can we have the heavenly kingdom without leaving behind what we have on this earth?
Prentis perhaps someday you will find yourself in the age of grace where Paul reveals to the Church/Christ's Body such gems as...
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(Col 2:9-10)
With all this freely given, what treasure compares? We sacrifice out of love not in order to merit.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(Col 2:9-10)
With all this freely given, what treasure compares? We sacrifice out of love not in order to merit.
Ye are complete in him implies that you've left you're old life behind to be found in him!
God gives freely to those who truly desire it... Thus leaving all to follow him. Do they have anything to pay him with? No. They have nothing! Thus they receive freely... But not apart from a willingness to leave the old life, and follow after.
Before the resurrection, those who wished to be disciples left everything to follow Jesus... After, they left everything to be with one another, follow him in the Spirit, and to have him among them in the Spirit.
And THAT is the church.
It is what we are called to if we wish to be disciples of Christ... the bride of Christ... living in the presence of God, both indwelt and visited of God, in true communion with the whole Godhead.
For this, the disciple of today leaves everything and follows after the Master, joining the brothers who do likewise.
And THAT is the church.
It is what we are called to if we wish to be disciples of Christ... the bride of Christ... living in the presence of God, both indwelt and visited of God, in true communion with the whole Godhead.
For this, the disciple of today leaves everything and follows after the Master, joining the brothers who do likewise.
As I am saying, Christ in us is the Great treasure Who is all in all in which the fulness of the Godhead dwelleth bodily. THIS, every believer has...an unspeakable gift. If you think there is something greater outside of Christ...go for it!
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
(Col 1:27)
For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:
(Col 2:9-10)
And if we are complete in Him what treasure more are you speaking of?
Having him in you is having the seed.... The question is do we overcome and attain, and actually walk by the new nature, Christ in us...
If you have a car, a great car, but you don't use it as it should be, to give God glory, but you just leave it parked in your parking lot and show it off, thinking that's it... You've missed the whole point! The point is that you use it, and learn to drive it properly, perfectly.
You speak of this treasure as though the believer already had it... It's a done deal, right?
Not. Paul, who most likely walked at a higher functioning level in the Spirit than anyone here does considered himself to not have attained... He STILL counted all things dung to attain Christ... including what he did for Christ yesterday!
You made a first step to follow? Good for you... What are you doing today? What are you doing NOW to give yourself to the service of the Lord?
Paul's emphasis was for Christ to be all in all .Your emphasis, Prentis is on the word 'YOU'. Read your last line which is typical..."
You made a first step to follow? Good for you... What are you doing today? What are you doing NOW to give yourself to the service of the Lord?"
Paul most definitely states that the believer already has Christ living in him ...and more than a 'seed' as you say, but as a living dynamic sanctifying Savior.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.(Gal 2:20) and
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
(2Co 4:10-11)
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:11)
You made a first step to follow? Good for you... What are you doing today? What are you doing NOW to give yourself to the service of the Lord?"
Paul most definitely states that the believer already has Christ living in him ...and more than a 'seed' as you say, but as a living dynamic sanctifying Savior.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.(Gal 2:20) and
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
(2Co 4:10-11)
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(Rom 8:11)
Did Jesus tell the rich young ruler "I will leave everything I have and come and save you" or does he tell him 'YOU come and follow me'?
The focus IS on the YOU, because God will hold his end, but you must hold yours. There is no question as to whether God will give himself to save us, but the question is will we give ourselves that he might save us?
Paul speaks of the life of Christ in him, yes... And this life he has received by lip service? I don't think he did, or would agree. Paul died that Christ might live...
What I understand from what you're saying is that we get a freebie and we can live without having to go through the death. Rather through our death, we receive the life that Christ paid for by his death. Man can only operate on one nature... For the new to be fully functioning, the old has to die. A woman is only free of duty to her husband after he dies, and the believer is free from the power of the old nature when it dies... In this life! Then it becomes PRACTICALLY true that 'it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me.
Basically it comes down to this; if we don't want to deny the power of the gospel, we must agree that then our being crucified with Christ must have the effect it had for Christ; newness of life, walking in new power. Otherwise we are saying on the one hand that we are crucified with Christ and on the other that we really aren't.
The focus IS on the YOU, because God will hold his end, but you must hold yours. There is no question as to whether God will give himself to save us, but the question is will we give ourselves that he might save us?
Paul speaks of the life of Christ in him, yes... And this life he has received by lip service? I don't think he did, or would agree. Paul died that Christ might live...
What I understand from what you're saying is that we get a freebie and we can live without having to go through the death. Rather through our death, we receive the life that Christ paid for by his death. Man can only operate on one nature... For the new to be fully functioning, the old has to die. A woman is only free of duty to her husband after he dies, and the believer is free from the power of the old nature when it dies... In this life! Then it becomes PRACTICALLY true that 'it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me.
Basically it comes down to this; if we don't want to deny the power of the gospel, we must agree that then our being crucified with Christ must have the effect it had for Christ; newness of life, walking in new power. Otherwise we are saying on the one hand that we are crucified with Christ and on the other that we really aren't.
Good post Prism, very easy to read.
I agree with you Christ did all that was necessary for our reconciliation to God, we just have to trust that He did and cease from trying to do it of ourselves. This is the proper foundation. Dying to self is something that takes place as we walk with Christ, we decrease and He is increased, this too is performed by God through the work of HolySpirit.
Prentise, I am going to post a scripture that I think you are familiar with and ask for a simple answer.
4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
Eph 2:4-10 (NLT)
With exception to verse ten, in this context of scripture is Paul speaking in present tense or past tense?
To be honest, I feel like your springing a trap. You already know what you're going to try and say with this scripture... And I get the impression you want me to nod, 'yes, past tense' so that you can prove it. Am I not getting what your doing, maybe?
Yes, it is past tense.
And the people are abiding. God saved them from the current corruption, that they might walk in newness of life... Now they must be faithful to the end... As it says, "he who perseveres to the end, he shall be saved"... And if they do, they will spend eternity ruling and reigning with Christ.
Otherwise why does it say 'to he who overcomes...'? Overcomes what, since some say there is nothing to do on our part?
To carry our load or cargo is to own up to our sins, which if we do, we then shall repent and deny our own will, which the Lord requires of us, if we are to belong to Him at all. And no, it is not as is advertised, of our bearing our hardships, for if that were so, then those that have none could not be included; and yes there are those who have very little. No, rather Christ is referring to our sins which need to be passed over if we are to belong to Him; but we cannot receive the remission of our sins unless we repent, which is why that is the first thing He tells us to do, and without which we cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And no, this is not me saying so, rather it is Him saying so.
This isn't another masked debate between the principles of Socialism and Imperialism-Capitalism or the idea of nations, is it?
Paul's Epistles are clear that those in Christ's Church have the duty of charity, but selling all one has there is no such requirement in order to fulfill bearing one's cross to follow Christ Jesus. If this were not so Christ Jesus and His Apostles wouldn't have founded His literal Church on this earth, nor with that foundation being started in the Christian west among nations.
That's a difficult question to answer.
On the one hand, one could say Paul is giving us insight into a present reality that we do not see, and we must therefore take it by faith. On the other hand, it might be said that this is a reality that one attains to when he is operating in a spiritual capacity, thus those who are spiritual in Christ Jesus are seated in heavenly places.
I knew a brother who took this by faith, and said that yes, if we are Christ's, we are seated in the heavenlies and we must take this by faith! Then again, that man operated on a spiritual level and ministered Christ to all those around him.
Is a carnal Christian seated in heavenly places? Seated in heavenly places and sinning?
There seems to
It is not about a rule, not all sell all.... We are not all carnally the same... But we are all spiritually the same, ie, we must all GIVE UP everything, holding on to nothing, being willing...
For one, that means leave everything he can't bring with him to go live with the brethren... For another, it means to open up his house to the brethren. The common denominator is that those who are Christ's all give up their old life driven by their own desires to a communal life driven by the presence of God among them.
But your last paragraph is... about rules, which are your own I must say. There is no such command in Scripture for those in Christ Jesus to live a literal "communal life", for that's the idea of asceticism. And along with the idea of asceticism is the idea of one giving up all they materially possess, which is specifically an idea from Socialism also. I thought we'd already been over that 'commune' concept applied literally when it is not Scriptural?
2 Cor 8:1-15
1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;
2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.
3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;
4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
Paul speaking to the church at Corinth, commends the churches at Macedonia for their good example of alms giving to needy brethren. As Titus was sent to gather the gifts for distribution, Paul admonishes those at Corinth to follow that example of the brethren in Macedonia.
8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.
Paul then makes it clear he is not speaking by a commandment, but out of love for the brethren.
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.
10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.
11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.
Is Apostle Paul saying for the brethren to literally give up all possessions like our Lord Jesus did? No. He said to perform this grace "out of that which ye have."
12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
Not only does Paul not... command the brethren to literally give up all possessions, he makes it clearly understood that he means for brethren that have to not be "burdened" so that "other men be eased"!
That very idea is the anti-thesis of Socialism. We could easily get into a debate of how... the lives of many on welfare today are eased while others are burdened in holding two or three jobs just to make ends meet. (Welfare is for those who need it because of a disability or not able to work, not for those who can work to live in ease.)
14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
(KJV)
Paul is specific about their giving out of their "abundance", not the giving of all their possessions away.
This matter of alms is between the Christian believer and Jesus Christ as to how much one gives. It is not about someone who complains of how rich another is, which one can hear Socialists doing today.
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