when the vestiges of imperialism are removed

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Spiritual Israelite

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Yes, the 7 heads and 10 horns are 7 European leaders and 10 European countries. John explains, via riddles, that the 7 heads can be viewed as 7 hills. The hills are quite literally the 7 hills of Rome. The hills are also metaphors for 7 successive kingdoms in history, beginning with Egypt and ending with Antichrist's Empire.
You're not being consistent here. First, you say the 7 heads are 7 European leaders. And you're talking current or future leaders, right? Then you say the heads, which are called hills (or mountains) are "metaphors for 7 successive kingdoms in history (I agree). But, you can't have it both ways. They can't both be current or future entities as well as past entities. It's one or the other. Also, I disagree with the idea of the hills/mountains being both literal and metaphors. I don't believe that makes any sense, either.

Look at it this way. The woman is said to sit on those seven hills. She also is said to sit on "many waters" (Rev 17:1) and on the beast with seven heads and ten horns (Rev 17:3). Are the many waters literal? No, they symbolically represent "peoples, multitudes, nations and languages" (Rev 17:15). Is the beast with seven heads and ten horns literal? Obviously not. So, the woman clearly does not sit on literal things, but rather symbolic things. The same is true of the hills/mountains. They are not literal at all.

So the 7 heads and 10 horns are taken from Dan 7, indicating the political environment of Antichrist's geographical rule. But to identify this as something originating with ancient Rome, John turns the "7 heads" into a hint and a metaphor. The 7 hills is a hint of the 7 hills of Rome. And the 7 hills are a metaphor for 7 successive kingdoms, the 6th of which is Rome.
I disagree with your theory that John was hinting at anything there. I see no basis at all for that. He clearly indicated that five of the seven heads, representing historical kings and their kingdoms, were past and one existed at the time. That's it. There's no basis for saying it also represents seven current and/or future kings/kingdoms.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Your response is a "Distraction" from biblical truth,
So, why are you not able to address it then? I made legitimate points and all you can do is call it a distraction? That's a joke.

you know well that "Waters" is a symbolic metaphor also, and is fully explained in the literal interpretation as seen below, in people's and nations

How far will you continue to deny biblical truth, as you bend, twist, and tear, to support the reformed preterist error "SAD"
Your hyper-futurist dispensationalist way of looking at things is "SAD". Seeing everything in prophecy as either all fulfilled in the past as full preterists do or all fulfilled in the future as people like you do is an extremist approach to interpreting scripture that has no balance. It makes no sense.

Also, my view of what we're talking about here is not even preterist. I don't view the harlot as being first century Jerusalem as preterists do.
 
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Gottservant

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You need to define your focus, when you are reading "Revelation". If your focus changes (as you are reading it) then you will only get wind and confusion.

You might say "Alright I am focusing on the Jewish nation" Revelation will then teach you about "Israel" and so on and so forth.

What I am saying is that there are many ways to ground an interpretation of Revelation and many different observers may have their own Revelation.
 

Truth7t7

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So, why are you not able to address it then? I made legitimate points and all you can do is call it a distraction? That's a joke.


Your hyper-futurist way of looking at things is "SAD". Seeing everything in prophecy as either all fulfilled in the past as full preterists do or all fulfilled in the future as people like you do is an extremist approach to interpreting scripture that has no balance. It makes no sense.
Reformed Preterist Eschatology Is a False Teaching, In Denial Of A Future Literal Human Man As (Daniel's Little Horn) (Paul's Man Of Sin) (John's The Beast) A Deceptive Teaching, "Scary"!
 

Truth7t7

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So, the woman clearly does not sit on literal things, but rather symbolic things. The same is true of the hills/mountains. They are not literal at all.
Your claims are "False"

The symbolic is clearly interpreted into the literal

7 heads are seven literal mountains on this earth

The waters are clearly explained to be literal nations and people on this earth

It's amazing how far you will go in direct denial of biblical truth, "after" you have been clearly shown several times, as you bend, twist, and tear God's words in chaotic confusion "SAD"!

Reformed Preterist Eschatology Is A False Teaching

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Reformed Preterist Eschatology Is a False Teaching,
Yes, it is. Good thing I don't hold to that.

In Denial Of A Future Literal Human Man As (Daniel's Little Horn) (Paul's Man Of Sin) (John's The Beast) A Deceptive Teaching, "Scary"!
LOL. It's scary that you are wasting your time looking out for this imaginary Boogey Man.

You say this supposed "Future Literal Human Man" is "Paul's Man of Sin". If Paul was referring to an individual man of sin then should we conclude that the following is referring to an individual "man of God" as well?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Who is this individual man of God that Paul was referring to here? Or was he not referring to an individual man of God but to godly people in general?

As for the beast, it "was" even before John wrote the book of Revelation, but you ignore that. It is an absolute wonder that you are able to discern that the thousand years of Revelation 20 is figurative when you take almost everything else so literally.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Your claims are "False"
Great argument there. Very convincing.

The symbolic is clearly interpreted into the literal

7 heads are seven literal mountains on this earth

The waters are clearly explained to be literal nations and people on this earth
So? The woman also sits on the beast with seven heads and ten horns. Is the beast clearly explained? Can you easily identify the beast? Hardly. So, what you're saying is pointless. Again, the symbolic woman sits on symbolic things that represent things in reality. She is said to sit on seven mountains, on many waters and on the beast. None of those things are literal just as the woman is not literal. They symbolically represent real things. In scripture, mountains sometimes symbolically refer to kingdoms such as when it refers to God's kingdom as His "holy mountain".

It's amazing how far you will go in direct denial of biblical truth, "after" you have been clearly shown several times, as you bend, twist, and tear God's words in chaotic confusion "SAD"!
You have shown nothing except that you like to repeat the exact same words over and over again. You are a broken record.

Reformed Preterist Eschatology Is A False Teaching
Yes, it is. I'm glad I don't hold to it. Dispensationalism is a false teaching, too. You agree with them on some things, so I guess that makes you a dispensationalist. Apparently, all it takes is agreeing with someone on one or two things and it makes you one of them even if you disagree with them on everything else. Great logic there.
 

Truth7t7

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So, the woman clearly does not sit on literal things, but rather symbolic things. The same is true of the hills/mountains. They are not literal at all.
Your claims are "False"

The symbolic is clearly interpreted into the literal

7 heads are seven literal mountains on this earth, the woman sitting on waters is literal nations and people

It's amazing how far you will go in direct denial of biblical truth after you gave been clearly shown several times "SAD"
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Who is this individual man of God that Paul was referring to here? Or was he not referring to an individual man of God but to godly people in general?
(The Man Of God) & (The Man Of Sin), Apples And Oranges, Your Blatant "Distraction"!

A complete distraction once again, having no relevance to the fact that the future "Man Of Sin" will be a literal human man upon this earth
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Your claims are "False"

The symbolic is clearly interpreted into the literal

7 heads are seven literal mountains on this earth, the woman sitting on waters is literal nations and people

It's amazing how far you will go in direct denial of biblical truth after you gave been clearly shown several times "SAD"

A complete distraction once again, having no relevance to the fact that the future "Man Of Sin" will be a literal human man upon this earth
You are cowardly and not willing to address any points that refute what you believe. You just call them a distraction and don't even attempt to address them. This is a complete waste of time since you are not willing to take part in honest discussion.
 

Truth7t7

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This is a complete waste of time since you are not willing to take part in honest discussion.
As you remove God's literal words of truth, through symbolic allegory, "Beware"!

The Beast will be a future literal human man, who will be worshipped by all the unsaved earth

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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As you remove God's literal words of truth, through symbolic allegory, "Beware"!
That's a lie. I am not removing any literal words. I am recognizing the symbolic words used to reference the things that the symbolic woman sits on (many waters, the beast with seven heads and ten horns, and the seven mountains) and determining what those symbols mean in reality. So, I am not removing anything.

The Beast will be a future literal human man, who will be worshipped by all the unsaved earth

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
It "will be a future literal human man"? What was the beast before John wrote the book (he said the beast "once was" - Rev 17:8)? Do you think it was a man before that as well? If you were consistent, that is what you would believe. If so, who was it?
 

Randy Kluth

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You're not being consistent here. First, you say the 7 heads are 7 European leaders. And you're talking current or future leaders, right? Then you say the heads, which are called hills (or mountains) are "metaphors for 7 successive kingdoms in history (I agree). But, you can't have it both ways. They can't both be current or future entities as well as past entities. It's one or the other. Also, I disagree with the idea of the hills/mountains being both literal and metaphors. I don't believe that makes any sense, either.
Actually that's what I am saying, that the 7 heads are both 7 literal kings in the future Antichristian Kingdom and a symbol of 7 successive kingdoms that identify Rome as the 6th Kingdom.

The 7 heads and the 7 hills represent 7 successive kingdoms in history that lead to the Antichristian Empire. Since Rome was the 6th Kingdom, this identifies Rome as the predecessor to Antichrist.

The 7 heads are future leaders who in John's prophecy appeared to have origins in the current Roman Kingdom.

The "fatal wound" of one of the heads of the Beast may have been a future termination of Imperial Rome. In John's time it existed as an Empire, but in modern times it has been democratized and broken up into the states of Europe.

In John's time the Antichristian Empire did not yet exist, or "was not." But in the future, imperial Rome will be reconstituted, or brought "back to life," as the Antichristian Empire.

The ancient pagan Empire, having been terminated and put in the Abyss, would rise again as the Antichristian Empire. The current rise of Paganism in the heart of European Christianity is exhilarating to people today, as they feel new freedoms to explore sensuality and other religious beliefs. Hedonism is once again rearing its ugly head.

At any rate, I think John used the "7 heads" as symbols alluding to Rome. He did that by turning the 7 literal future heads of Europe, the "7 heads," into 2 hints, alluding to their Roman origins.

1) John turned the 7 heads into a representation of 7 hills, alluding to the 7 hills of Rome.
2) John turned the 7 heads into a representation of 7 successive kingdoms in history.

Why was this important? It was important because the culture that existed in John's time was the central political danger to Christians, both in terms of temptation and in terms of persecution. And John was stating that this Roman culture would be a continuing danger to Christianity for the rest of the age, up until Christ's Return.

How is this inconsistent or irrational? Let me make up a similar story for you.

Let's say I am captive to an oppressive kingdom called "The Hand." I am concerned that my coreligionists will fall for the idolatrous temptations of this Kingdom, and I want to be clear about the fact I am speaking of The Hand without appearing to be blatantly seditious.

I prophesy that towards the end of that Kingdom there will be a coalition of 5 leaders led by an emperor. This will be a time of intense temptation and persecution of my coreligionists, and I wish them to know that this is a test during which they should remain strong.

But being imprisoned by The Hand I cannot prophecy that this coalition will be an evil Empire identified as "The Hand." So I tell my fellow religionists that to properly recognize this endtime Empire the 5 leaders represent 5 fingers, which to my co-religionists would identify it as "The Hand."

And I tell them the 5 future leaders also represent a series of 5 evil governments, which by nature persecute our religion. In fact, our literature documents them as such.

When I identify the 4th in the series of evil governments as currently existing my coreligionists identify it as The Hand, which is indeed currently persecuting our religion.

This may or may not help you to understand how I look at John's prophecy. It's okay if we disagree on this. It took me many years to come up with my present theory. It's been one of the most difficult prophecies for me to decipher.

I'm certainly not dogmatic about it. But viewing the importance of having the Christians identify Rome as an endtime source of pagan danger was perhaps obvious but also something that needed to be exposed. That's just how I look at it.

Even more so, we were told in Daniel that a 4th Kingdom would lead to the end of the age, when Christ's Kingdom would be established on earth. I believe this Kingdom had to have been Rome, the 1st great political persecutor of the Church.

Today, Europe is in a state of decline, turning against Christianity. Christians do need to be aware of the prophecy of a final state of Rome, when Antichrist presides over 10 nations of Europe.

Furthermore, there are other places in Scriptures where disguising religious opposition to the state had to be done surreptitiously. So my interpretation is not out of sorts with other passages of Scripture.

The Gospel does not encourage conspiracy against the State, or revolution, though morally, that can, at times, be justified. I do think that in 2 Thes 2 the "Restrainer" is Paul's hidden name for the Roman Empire, which ultimately will be removed in order for a new coalition of the same to emerge under Antichrist.

You may have to read this several times to fully understand it. Due to its complex nature it is difficult to understand. But in my opinion, it is *not* irrational! On the contrary, it is critical to recognize the "Beast" culture that tests us every day within European culture.
 
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ScottA

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There are two narratives--since the beginning, there has always been two narratives: Good and Evil.

The current enactment also has two narratives. But it is this global enactment that is the finale.

But what do we know, what should we have learned? How did things occur in Christ's victory over sin and His gain of all power over Heaven and Earth? Was it a battle to be seen...or a battle behind the scenes? The same is true now.

The lake of fire burns, and has been burning since Pentecost. But this last enactment is indeed more public, more is to be revealed than in the beginning, because this is the final witness, the final testimony against evil. "Then comes the end."

Meanwhile, do not be dismayed, for the end is good for those who are in Christ. However, the warnings still stand: "take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness." "Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." "There will be weeping a gnashing of teeth."