When the Year of the Second Coming Will Be, the Millennial Shabbat of the Year 6000 YB, Jubilees

[justbyfaith]

What in the world did I say to lead you to think I believe otherwise than what you just said? OF COURSE Jesus was without sin - He was perfect.
I simply said what the Bible says: that Jesus had "fallen flesh" which is NOT THE SAME THING as saying He fell (into sin).

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also himself likewise took part of the SAME; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily He took not on [Him THE (PERFECT) NATURE OF ANGELS] angels; but He took on [Him] the (FALLEN) seed of Abraham." Hebrews 2:14-16​

Tell me how it is that you think that someone who has a fallen nature can also be without sin? I was under the impression that these terms were synonymous to a certain extent.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course! They all drop dead "at the brightness of His (second) coming" because sinners CANNOT stand in the sight of a holy God - they immediately give up the ghost! They all flee to the rocks and mountains but cannot escape "His terrible gaze" - they drop dead at the Second Coming, sleep through the thousand years with the rest of the dead wicked while Jesus and the saints return to heaven for the thousand year reign...

...and then the entire celestial city is transported to Earth, and as it descends, God resurrects the dead wicked - all of them - and Satan is "loosed from his prison" of idleness and nothing to do and promptly gets busy martialling the wicked together...probably lying to them and telling them he himself resurrected them and that they greatly outnumber those meek folks inside the city who don't like fighting. But, soon they are convinced of their wrong, drop to their knees at the moment when every single person who has ever lived from Adam to the last born man confess that Jesus is Lord, after which fire comes down from God and devours them out of existence.

So then, God raises them up...they attack the holy city...fire of God comes down from heaven and kills them...and then God raises them up another time so that He can judge them at the GWT judgment?

Sorry, it makes more sense to me that the people who attack the holy city are the descendants of those people who survived the Great Trib and who lived on the earth during the millennial reign as subjects of those who will rule and reign with Christ.

Also, there is the issue of the purpose of the millennial reign...which is to show that the problem of sin cannot be solved by governmental regulations!

 

[Ac28]

Of course! They all drop dead "at the brightness of His (second) coming" because sinners CANNOT stand in the sight of a holy God - they immediately give up the ghost! They all flee to the rocks and mountains but cannot escape "His terrible gaze" - they drop dead at the Second Coming, sleep through the thousand years with the rest of the dead wicked while Jesus and the saints return to heaven for the thousand year reign...

...and then the entire celestial city is transported to Earth, and as it descends, God resurrects the dead wicked - all of them - and Satan is "loosed from his prison" of idleness and nothing to do and promptly gets busy martialling the wicked together...probably lying to them and telling them he himself resurrected them and that they greatly outnumber those meek folks inside the city who don't like fighting. But, soon they are convinced of their wrong, drop to their knees at the moment when every single person who has ever lived from Adam to the last born man confess that Jesus is Lord, after which fire comes down from God and devours them out of existence.

The New Jerusalem comes down out of the NEW Heavens - see Rev 21. If it came down BEFORE the present Heavens and earth are destroyed, it would be burned up. Satan will never see the City. He will not exist. All the chaos at the 2nd coming will be over with when the city appears.

No unbeliever will ever be resurrected. Not being saved, they had no Spirit of God that would return to Him. Their body is now part of the elements. The idea of the separate, immortal soul is 100% pagan and 100% non-Biblical. If the pagan hell were true, they wou'd have to be given an immortal body that would withstand the flames - but there is no Hell. So, there is absolutely no trace of the unbeliever to resurrect - no body, no spirit, no soul. That's why the ungodly dead will never stand at any judgment. Judgment is for believers. The ungodly have already been judged. They suffer non-existence and permanent death - the worst punishment possible.

My question has always been what God is going to do with everybody when He burns up the present created Heavens and Earth. Maybe they'll be temporarily housed in the Highest Heaven, the uncreated abode of God. They won't be there long, though, since NO Israelite will ever spend eternity in this Heaven of Heavens. They're earthly people and will occupy the New Earth and the New Jerusalem. There's a Gate for each tribe to enter and leave. There is no Gentile gate.

 

[justbyfaith]

No unbeliever will ever be resurrected.

See Daniel 12:2. It is the unbelieving who will be raised unto shame and everlasting contempt.

See also John 5:29.

 

[justbyfaith]

but there is no Hell.

I beg to differ. See Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46.

They won't be there long, though, since NO Israelite will ever spend eternity in this Heaven of Heavens.

Do you have scripture that says that Jews are excluded from this heaven, spoken of in Colossians 1:5 (kjv) and 1 Peter 1:4?

 

[Phoneman777]

I already told you, at the second coming the earth will be laid waste, through plagues, but there will be survivors.

The survivors are the righteous that escape the destruction of the wicked - they return to God's kingdom from whence Jesus came for them and remain for the thousand year reign with Him.

Why is this so difficult to understand? Will the Messiah rule over a barren wasteland for a thousand years? No, he will rule over the few that survived, which will become mighty nations, and will serve him and also the people that inherited the kingdom of God, ON THIS EARTH, for one goes to heaven either, for we will rule with the Messiah on THIS earth, which is why the Messiah comes again, to live and rule on THIS earth. And then we will live in the next earth, which is why there is never a point where we ascend into heaven.

It is an indisputable fact that no sinner can stand in the sight of a holy God and live - but you somehow are led to believe that there will be wicked people who will not only stand before Him, but also serve Him in His presence? The High Priest was at risk of dropping dead when he entered the Most Holy Place and directly into the presence of God - so much so that they tied bells to him and a ropes to his feet so that if the bells went silent, they could drag him out by them ----- yet the wicked will not be harmed for 1,000 years? It cannot be.

 

[Phoneman777]

Because it shows that there will be survivors after the second coming of the Messiah, which will:

1. Be few in number, but will multiply and become mighty nations.
2. Will be subjected to sin and death.
3. And will serve the Messiah and the people of God.

Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, Yehovah of armies, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, Yehovah of armies, there will be no rain on them. And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; which shall be the plague with which Yehovah afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (Zechariah 14:16-18)

I pursued my enemies and overtook them, And I did not turn back until they were consumed. I shattered them, so that they were not able to rise; They fell under my feet. For You have girded me with strength for battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me. You have also made my enemies turn their backs to me, And I destroyed those who hated me. They cried for help, but there was none to save, Even to Yehovah, but He did not answer them. Then I beat them fine as the dust before the airflow; I emptied them out as the mire of the streets. You have delivered me from the contentions of the people; You have placed me as head of the nations; A people whom I have not known serve me. As soon as they hear, they obey me; Foreigners submit to me. Foreigners fade away, And come trembling out of their fortresses. Yehovah lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation, The God who executes vengeance for me, And subdues peoples under me. (Psalm 18:37-47)

For Yehovah will have compassion on Jacob and will again choose Israel, and will set them in their own land, and sojourners will join them and will attach themselves to the house of Jacob. And the peoples will take them and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them in the land of Yehovah as male and female servants. They will take captive those who were their captors, and rule over those who oppressed them. (Isaiah 14:1-2)

See, Yehovah is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it; he will ruin its face and scatter its inhabitants— it will be the same for priest as for people, for the master as for his servant, for the mistress as for her servant, for seller as for buyer, for borrower as for lender, for debtor as for creditor. The earth will be completely laid waste and totally plundered. Yehovah has spoken this word. The earth dries up and withers, the world languishes and withers, the heavens languish with the earth. The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the aeonial covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left. (Isaiah 24:1-6)

I'm sorry but I simply cannot accept the idea that wicked sinners will stand in the sight of our glorified Christ and not be harmed. You know full well the Bible teaches exactly what I'm saying and every single instance when God appeared to men, He had to conceal His glory lest those men would be consumed.

 

[justbyfaith]

How did the scribes and Pharisees and stand before Jesus (and the people of His day)? For He is the Holy God!

I believe that the answer is that His Deity was veiled in human flesh...as it will be during the millennial reign.

 

[Phoneman777]

Tell me how it is that you think that someone who has a fallen nature can also be without sin? I was under the impression that these terms were synonymous to a certain extent.

There is a MASSIVE difference between having a "fallen nature" and a "fallen creature" that is guilty of sin. "Fallen nature" simply means "a natural inclination to do wrong". "Unfallen nature" simply means "a natural inclination to do right".

Which did Jesus have?

Hebrews 2:16-18:
"For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels (what nature do good angels have? a perfect nature); but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren (what nature do we have? a fallen nature), that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that He himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted."​

Hebrews 5:8-9:
"Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered;
And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him..."​

If Jesus' nature was unfallen - meaning His flesh did not feel the draw of temptation to sin:

• He had an unfair advantage over us
• His example of holiness to us was useless
• the devil would never cease to point to this as the highest proof of an unjust, unreasonable, unfair God.

But the Scriptures teach otherwise, meaning:

• He was on equal ground with us
• His life is a perfect example of how we too may overcome sin through a close relationship with God
• the devil stands exposed as guilty for the very things with which he accuses God

 

[Phoneman777]

So then, God raises them up...they attack the holy city...fire of God comes down from heaven and kills them...and then God raises them up another time so that He can judge them at the GWT judgment?

No no, it's like this:

1. The wicked keep on doing their dirt and persecuting us until the Second Coming
2. At His appearing, the wicked all drop dead "from one end of the Earth even unto the other end of the Earth" because of His glory "at the brightness of His coming". Sinners cannot stand in the sight of a holy, glorified God.
3. Meanwhile, the dead righteous come out of their graves and acsend to Jesus in the clouds, after which we follow them up to Him. We all in a grand and glorious procession journey back to heaven with Jesus, for "where I am (when He is preparing a place for us) there may ye be also".
4. We reign for a thousand years in heaven over the universe, while the Earth lies totally destroyed and devoid of all life, except for Satan and his angels who are "bound in chains" of circumstance, having no one to tempt or decieve.
5. After the thousand years, the entire heavenly Holy City is transported to the destroyed Earth and as it descends, the wicked are resurrected and Satan gets back to his work of deception.
6. After convincing them that victory is possible, and marshal together in preparation for the final battle, they suddenly behold Jesus raised high above everything on His White Throne, they become convicted of their sinful ways and are deserving of destruction that is to follow, they all fall down and confess Jesus is Lord, and then fire comes down and destroys them all. That's how Jesus will "rule over the nations with a rod of iron" - He will "break them with a rod of iron...dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel".

 

[CoreIssue]

No no, it's like this:

The wicked keep on doing their dirt and persecuting us until the Second Coming at which they all drop dead all over the Earth "at the brightness of His coming". Sinners cannot stand in the sight of a holy, glorified God. Meanwhile, the dead righteous come out of their graves and acsend to Jesus in the clouds, after which we follow them up to Him. We all in a grand and glorious procession journey back to heaven with Jesus, for "where I am (when He is preparing a place for us) there may ye be also". We reign for a thousand years in heaven over the universe, while the Earth lies totally destroyed and devoid of all life, except for Satan and his angels who are "bound in chains" of circumstance, having no one to tempt or decieve. After the thousand years, the Holy City is transported to the destroyed Earth and as it descends, the wicked are resurrected and Satan gets back to his work of deception. After convincing them that victory is possible, they surround the city, suddenly become convicted of their sinful ways and are deserving of destruction, all fall down and confess Jesus is Lord, and then fire comes down and destroys them all.

If let's get back to the bible here.

Those that die as the second coming are the ones of the mark the beast and the armies of the AC at Jerusalem. They don't die by the brightness of this coming, they die by the sword.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Also the rapture that is not at the second coming. It is seven years earlier.

At the rapture Christ comes as a thief in the night in the clouds. At the second coming the whole world sees him and he does not leave for 1000 years.

As for the fire coming down, that is 1000 years later when Satan his release from the pit. There is another thief in night return and the heavens and the earth are destroyed in fire.

What is said above sounds like SDA to me.

 

[Phoneman777]

The New Jerusalem comes down out of the NEW Heavens - see Rev 21. If it came down BEFORE the present Heavens and earth are destroyed, it would be burned up. Satan will never see the City. He will not exist. All the chaos at the 2nd coming will be over with when the city appears.

Revelation is NOT written in chronological order - it employs Hebrew Chiastic Structure. Because we in the West are of a Western mindset - where the climax comes at the end of a story - we fail to recognize that in the East, the climax is reached in the middle of a story with many details yet to be given, but are revealed by repetition and enlargement of the story as it proceeds from the middle to the end. Revelation 21:1 is a concluding remark which is associated with the end of chapter 20. 21:2 begins repeating previously revealed elements of the story with additional details.

No unbeliever will ever be resurrected.

"...they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Not being saved, they had no Spirit of God that would return to Him.

"If he set his heart upon man, [if] he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; ALL FLESH (not just the flesh of the righteous as you suggest) shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."

The idea of the separate, immortal soul is 100% pagan and 100% non-Biblical.

100% agree

If the pagan hell were true, they wou'd have to be given an immortal body that would withstand the flames - but there is no Hell. So, there is absolutely no trace of the unbeliever to resurrect - no body, no spirit, no soul. That's why the ungodly dead will never stand at any judgment. Judgment is for believers. The ungodly have already been judged. They suffer non-existence and permanent death - the worst punishment possible.

You're preaching to the choir!
[/QUOTE]My question has always been what God is going to do with everybody when He burns up the present created Heavens and Earth[/QUOTE] The Second Coming is accompanied by unimaginable destruction but "the end is not yet". Only after the 1,000 years when the Holy City is transported down here, will total destruction and the Lake of Fire set ablaze every thing that is outside the city walls.

 

[Phoneman777]

If let's get back to the bible here.

Those that die as the second coming are the ones of the mark the beast and the armies of the AC at Jerusalem. They don't die by the brightness of this coming, they die by the sword.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

Also the rapture that is not at the second coming. It is seven years earlier.

At the rapture Christ comes as a thief in the night in the clouds. At the second coming the whole world sees him and he does not leave for 1000 years.

As for the fire coming down, that is 1000 years later when Satan his release from the pit. There is another thief in night return and the heavens and the earth are destroyed in fire.

What is said above sounds like SDA to me.

Let's get something straight: NO SINNER CAN LIVE IN THE SIGHT OF A HOLY GOD.

 

[CoreIssue]

Let's get something straight: NO SINNER CAN LIVE IN THE SIGHT OF A HOLY GOD.

He did for the 33 years Christ was on the earth.

At the second coming he will be in glorified flesh, just as he was before he ascended and was talking to people. He even told them to touch him.

 

[justbyfaith]

No no, it's like this:

1. The wicked keep on doing their dirt and persecuting us until the Second Coming
2. At His appearing, the wicked all drop dead "from one end of the Earth even unto the other end of the Earth" because of His glory "at the brightness of His coming". Sinners cannot stand in the sight of a holy, glorified God.
3. Meanwhile, the dead righteous come out of their graves and acsend to Jesus in the clouds, after which we follow them up to Him. We all in a grand and glorious procession journey back to heaven with Jesus, for "where I am (when He is preparing a place for us) there may ye be also".
4. We reign for a thousand years in heaven over the universe, while the Earth lies totally destroyed and devoid of all life, except for Satan and his angels who are "bound in chains" of circumstance, having no one to tempt or decieve.
5. After the thousand years, the entire heavenly Holy City is transported to the destroyed Earth and as it descends, the wicked are resurrected and Satan gets back to his work of deception.
6. After convincing them that victory is possible, and marshal together in preparation for the final battle, they suddenly behold Jesus raised high above everything on His White Throne, they become convicted of their sinful ways and are deserving of destruction that is to follow, they all fall down and confess Jesus is Lord, and then fire comes down and destroys them all. That's how Jesus will "rule over the nations with a rod of iron" - He will "break them with a rod of iron...dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel".

I'm sorry that doesn't fly with me (because I know what my Bible teaches on the issue).

Also, I am not willing to argue over the subject and also do not need to argue over the subject (to me it is a peripheral issue that has no bearing on salvation: and therefore if you want to believe something false about this subject of end-times events, it is no skin off my back unless your doctrine on the issue is somehow connected to false doctrine on things that matter, such as salvation by grace through faith).

If you are trying to teach some false doctrine about salvational issues by coming in through the back door, then my advice to the reader would be to reject the doctrines being presented simply on the basis that they could be a back door entry to your heart concerning false doctrines that oppose faithful doctrine essential to salvation: as soon as you see the person preaching salvation by works, for example, out of reasoning that his end-times doctrines have been accepted as true, I would suggest reexamining those end-times doctrines and bringing them into subjection to the word of the Lord that salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

 

[farouk]

I'm sorry that doesn't fly with me (because I know what my Bible teaches on the issue).

Also, I am not willing to argue over the subject and also do not need to argue over the subject (to me it is a peripheral issue that has no bearing on salvation: and therefore if you want to believe something false about this subject of end-times events, it is no skin off my back unless your doctrine on the issue is somehow connected to false doctrine on things that matter, such as salvation by grace through faith).

If you are trying to teach some false doctrine about salvational issues by coming in through the back door, then my advice to the reader would be to reject the doctrines being presented simply on the basis that they could be a back door entry to your heart concerning false doctrines that oppose faithful doctrine essential to salvation: as soon as you see the person preaching salvation by works, for example, out of reasoning that his end-times doctrines have been accepted as true, I would suggest reexamining those end-times doctrines and bringing them into subjection to the word of the Lord that salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I do believe the Rapture is imminent in the sense that I don't see what else in Scripture must happen first. But I don't speculate about the exact timing.

 

[justbyfaith]

No one knows the day or the hour; and therefore it could happen in twenty minutes or in twenty decades; in one second or in one century.

However, Jesus warned us not to follow after those who would try to tell us that the time is at hand (Luke 21:8).

 

[Phoneman777]

He did for the 33 years Christ was on the earth.

At the second coming he will be in glorified flesh, just as he was before he ascended and was talking to people. He even told them to touch him.

??? Who did?

 

[Phoneman777]

I'm sorry that doesn't fly with me (because I know what my Bible teaches on the issue).

Also, I am not willing to argue over the subject and also do not need to argue over the subject (to me it is a peripheral issue that has no bearing on salvation: and therefore if you want to believe something false about this subject of end-times events, it is no skin off my back unless your doctrine on the issue is somehow connected to false doctrine on things that matter, such as salvation by grace through faith).

If you are trying to teach some false doctrine about salvational issues by coming in through the back door, then my advice to the reader would be to reject the doctrines being presented simply on the basis that they could be a back door entry to your heart concerning false doctrines that oppose faithful doctrine essential to salvation: as soon as you see the person preaching salvation by works, for example, out of reasoning that his end-times doctrines have been accepted as true, I would suggest reexamining those end-times doctrines and bringing them into subjection to the word of the Lord that salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I don't want to believe something false, that's why I don't believe a glorified Jesus will be reigning over wicked people when the Bible is clear that no sinner can stand in the sight of a holy God - they give up the ghost.

 

[justbyfaith]

I don't want to believe something false, that's why I don't believe a glorified Jesus will be reigning over wicked people when the Bible is clear that no sinner can stand in the sight of a holy God - they give up the ghost.

So then, why didn't everyone just give up the ghost the moment they saw Jesus when He walked the earth?