When to look for the rapture of the church

[Trekson]

Agreed, the rapture doctrine is just an escapist idea.

It all depends on the timing of it. The fact of it can't be disputed. It means one thing and one thing only, our being gathered up to him to meet him in the sky as scripture depicts.

 

[Trekson]

But I am convinced that Daniel 9:27 is in play. For the covenant to be broken and the AOD to happen, there is the covenant being confirmed by this same character. So it could be that the man of sin being revealed is at that covenant affirmation, which he later breaks and sets up the AOD that Yeshua talked about.

Perhaps, but there's nothing in scripture that claims the confirmation will be a public event. It could be some guy in the back of a meeting room just nodding his head.

 

[Copperhead]

One thing seems to come out in discussions such as these... what really are people putting their hope in?

In some folk’s zealousness to discredit the pre-trib position, they almost seem to exhibit a hope that the Lord not gather the redeemed early in the game so they can be vindicated on their eschatology. A desire for the Lord’s appearing seems to be absent, or at least put on the back burner. In contrast, there seems to be a desire to see the brethren suffer and the Antichrist be revealed. Possibly out of some vain idea of proving they are more deserving of the Lord’s favor. Almost like a Protestant Purgatory or something similar.

Again, it begs the question.... what or whom are some placing their hope in?

 

[historyb]

One thing seems to come out in discussions such as these... what really are people putting their hope in?

Christ is where my hope is, not some doctrine of evangelicals.

 

[Naomi25]

Never

Or perhaps, conversely, always.

let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. -Hebrews 10:22-25

Should we not always be looking out for the return of our Lord? And goodness knows, we only ever grow closer to it.

 

[historyb]

Of course. There is no rapture

 

[SovereignGrace]

I was once an amillennialist but I have since came to hold to Historic premillennialism. In Revelation 20:2-7, 1,000 years is mentioned 6 times, so I take this as God showing us something here. I know we should never make our theology over one verse or over one passage of verses, but Genesis 17 got me to questioning my amillennial beliefs a couple years ago. God told Abraham 7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”[Genesis 17] The covenant with Abraham's descendants(which is both Jews and Gentiles now) also included the land. Most amills(or at least I did) hold to the earth being completely destroyed upon the second advent of the Christ. Now, if this is true, then how can the land promise be everlasting? So, this is what got me to questioning my amill beliefs.

Now, I will go through a few places and try to explain why I hold to the HP view. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul wrote 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Now, show me where a pre-tribulation rapture is found in this passage. The reason why the four eschatological views believe their view is correct when using this passage is because the timing of the second advent is not there. All Paul wrote is how and what manner of His second advent will be. This passage is ambiguous in regards to when this coming in the cloud occurs. The pre-tribulation return of the Christ is not found here.


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. [1 Corinthians 15] Again, another passage used to support a pre-tribulation rapture. Nowhere does it give a timing of this second advent. It tells us how He is coming, just like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does, but not the timing. That is why HP, Dispensational Premillenialism, Amillennialism, and Post-millennialism use this(and 1 Thess. 4) to support their system.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”[Revelation 4:1] Now, this one really boggles my mind, not this verse, but how the dispensational premill view says that when John was 'caught up', so was the church. Huh? Srsly? The church is not even mentioned in that verse. Nowhere is that found. Nowhere should this be taught when using this verse. All it says is John was 'caught up', not the church.

Then they use the Ark for proof the DP view is correct. One problem...the Ark went through God's judgment. For it to fit the DP view, the Ark would have to be 'caught up' in the Cloud and then after the flood abated, it came back to earth. So, the Ark does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.[Matthew 24] Here we see the Christ saying that after the tribulation of those days, we see things happening. It appears to me that the post-tribulation rapture of the church has more concrete evidence than a pre-tribulation rapture does.

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.[2 Thessalonians 2] Here it appears that the rapture of the church will not take place until after the anti-Christ is revealed, and not before then.

Back to Revelation 20 for a few minutes. The amillennial view holds to the 1,000 years as being symbolic rather than literal. So, we are in this symbolic 1,000 years right now as we speak. One problem. It says in verse 2 he(Satan) was bound in the abyss for these 1,000 years so that he could no longer deceive the nations, and then once these years have passed, he will be turned loose for a short time. If the amillennial view is correct, Satan is bound in the abyss right now, and can not deceive the nations right now. Another problem, with sin being as rampant in the world as it is now, this is proof he is not bound and in this abyss. Also, in the amillennial view, they believe that once these symbolic 1,000 have passed, the resurrection of both saved and lost happen(general resurrection) and the final judgment takes place. Wait...Revelation 20:3 says after these 1,000 have elapsed, Satan will be released for a short time. To do what exactly? If the amillennial view is correct, his being released for a short time is useless as the judgment of all mankind has taken place. So, I think amillenialism is not correct, either.

In closing, I am well aware ppl can poke holes in my HP view. All four views have their weaknesses, imo. I just believe the HP leaves less questions that need answered than the other three do.

 

[Jay Ross]

I believe when the Anti-Christ makes his scene (which is not that far away) it is time for the rapture prophecy to come true.

The appearance of the Anti-Christ is still a distant future event. You OP statement above where you suggest that this event is not that far away is a wrong understanding of what is to happen still.

 

[Jay Ross]

I was once an amillennialist but I have since came to hold to Historic premillennialism. In Revelation 20:2-7, 1,000 years is mentioned 6 times, so I take this as God showing us something here. I know we should never make our theology over one verse or over one passage of verses, but Genesis 17 got me to questioning my amillennial beliefs a couple years ago. God told Abraham 7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”[Genesis 17] The covenant with Abraham's descendants(which is both Jews and Gentiles now) also included the land. Most amills(or at least I did) hold to the earth being completely destroyed upon the second advent of the Christ. Now, if this is true, then how can the land promise be everlasting? So, this is what got me to questioning my amill beliefs.

Now, I will go through a few places and try to explain why I hold to the HP view. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Paul wrote 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. Now, show me where a pre-tribulation rapture is found in this passage. The reason why the four eschatological views believe their view is correct when using this passage is because the timing of the second advent is not there. All Paul wrote is how and what manner of His second advent will be. This passage is ambiguous in regards to when this coming in the cloud occurs. The pre-tribulation return of the Christ is not found here.


51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. [1 Corinthians 15] Again, another passage used to support a pre-tribulation rapture. Nowhere does it give a timing of this second advent. It tells us how He is coming, just like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does, but not the timing. That is why HP, Dispensational Premillenialism, Amillennialism, and Post-millennialism use this(and 1 Thess. 4) to support their system.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”[Revelation 4:1] Now, this one really boggles my mind, not this verse, but how the dispensational premill view says that when John was 'caught up', so was the church. Huh? Srsly? The church is not even mentioned in that verse. Nowhere is that found. Nowhere should this be taught when using this verse. All it says is John was 'caught up', not the church.

Then they use the Ark for proof the DP view is correct. One problem...the Ark went through God's judgment. For it to fit the DP view, the Ark would have to be 'caught up' in the Cloud and then after the flood abated, it came back to earth. So, the Ark does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.[Matthew 24] Here we see the Christ saying that after the tribulation of those days, we see things happening. It appears to me that the post-tribulation rapture of the church has more concrete evidence than a pre-tribulation rapture does.

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.[2 Thessalonians 2] Here it appears that the rapture of the church will not take place until after the anti-Christ is revealed, and not before then.

Back to Revelation 20 for a few minutes. The amillennial view holds to the 1,000 years as being symbolic rather than literal. So, we are in this symbolic 1,000 years right now as we speak. One problem. It says in verse 2 he(Satan) was bound in the abyss for these 1,000 years so that he could no longer deceive the nations, and then once these years have passed, he will be turned loose for a short time. If the amillennial view is correct, Satan is bound in the abyss right now, and can not deceive the nations right now. Another problem, with sin being as rampant in the world as it is now, this is proof he is not bound and in this abyss. Also, in the amillennial view, they believe that once these symbolic 1,000 have passed, the resurrection of both saved and lost happen(general resurrection) and the final judgment takes place. Wait...Revelation 20:3 says after these 1,000 have elapsed, Satan will be released for a short time. To do what exactly? If the amillennial view is correct, his being released for a short time is useless as the judgment of all mankind has taken place. So, I think amillenialism is not correct, either.

In closing, I am well aware ppl can poke holes in my HP view. All four views have their weaknesses, imo. I just believe the HP leaves less questions that need answered than the other three do.

Genesis 17:8: - 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."​

Please note that the phrases "to you and" and "as and everlasting" expressions above should be understood to convey the following context as I have paraphrased below: -

Also I will give to your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan for a possession, for a long period of time which will be beyond their ability to comprehend; and I will be their God.​

When understood as I have paraphrased, the contextual meaning is very different from the understanding that the translators had when they translated this particular verse. Israel was given possession of the land of Canaan for a period of time before they were no longer allowed to live within the land of Canaan. This was a near future prophecy concerning Israel's possession of the land of Canaan which had a definite time period associated with it and not the infinite time period that the translated verse seems to indicate.

There is a great need for us to validate the translations of particular verses before we make any doctrinal decisions concerning those verses. This is just one example of many that I have come across in the scripture translations.

Shalom

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

This event....

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Will happen at this time....

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

1. Falling Away - Which is now occurring
2. Son of Perdition - The revealing of the Anti-Christ

I believe when the Anti-Christ makes his scene (which is not that far away) it is time for the rapture prophecy to come true.

Satan must have had to have a proposed Antichrist in every generation of the Church age (since he isn't omniscient and cannot know when those times are upon us). Many Christians think that current President of France, Emmanuel (the French form of Immanuel "God with us") Macron, is Satan's most recent candidate. Since Macron's parents are what Macron himself identifies as atheists, an interesting bit of mockery in naming him, no? His wife is a pedophile (she seduced Macron when he was fifteen and she was the married mother of three, and 39 years old). She would have gone to jail, had she been a man. Interestingly, Emmanuel Macron requested baptism into the Roman Catholic Church when he was twelve, although he now calls himself an "agnostic". He was educated mostly in Jesuit schools. There are persistent rumors about Macron being gay. He posed topless on the cover of a magazine for gay men, several years ago. Many political insiders in France have insisted that Macron is having an affair with Matthieu (the French form of Matthew) Gallant who was helped into his current position, as the very young president of Radio France, by his mentor, Frederic Mitterand, an openly homosexual nephew of the former President of France, Francois Mitterand. Macron has shown that he has little to no regard for human rights in his willingness to have his henchmen beat up peaceful "Yellow Vest" protestors. France has, for a long time, been suggested as a place where the Antichrist would rise to power.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

And trusting in Messiah to escape eternal punishment isn’t? We are all guilty of the death of Yeshua. As the Torah gave us an example, we flee to the city of refuge, which is Yeshua, to escape the avenger of blood, the Father.

Folks can call redemption and the removal of the righteous escapism if they like. Doesn’t negate that it is the blessed hope of the believers according to Paul, with a reward promised to all those who look forward to the Lord appearing.

And I am confident in whom I have placed my trust. I wish others were.

Amen!

 

[farouk]

Amen!

I don't see any prophecy that has to happen first Scripturally before the church is removed.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

I don't see any prophecy that has to happen first Scripturally before the church is removed.

The Church has always believed in the doctrine of immanency. That Christ could return at any moment. The writers of the Bible thought that it likely would happen in their lifetimes. When it didn't happen, they apparently revised their opinions and figured they better write their recollections and observations down. Thank God they did!

 

[farouk]

The Church has always believed in the doctrine of immanency. That Christ could return at any moment. The writers of the Bible thought that it likely would happen in their lifetimes. When it didn't happen, they apparently revised their opinions and figured they better write their recollections and observations down. Thank God they did!

Because so many church "leaders" have gotten bogged down in politics, the Old Testament arrangements for tithing which they try to bring forward to refer supposedly to pastoral stipends, etc., the scheme of literal interpretation which leads to the imminent return of Christ for the church, is something that often is one of the first things to go.

 

[n2thelight]

Christ said to watch

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

What's the key word in the above verse?

Watch!!,So the question should be,watch for what?

Let me share,we are to watch for all the signs Christ just told us in this chapter.Did He say say anything about a rapture?No He didn't!!!

So let's see what He did say

One of the most talked about subjects today is the end times and all the events that surround those times. There is no reason that we be anxious of these times, for Jesus told us to wait patiently on Him. In Mark 13 Jesus is going to give His disciples, and to us the seven seals, and these seals are also recorded in the Book of Revelation. They are the seals that mark the end of this earth age of the flesh. The very word "Revelation" means "to reveal", to make known.

Christ would not His elect in the dark concerning the simplicity of His teaching, so Jesus is asked by three of His apostles here, as they are coming out of the Temple, when is the end of the world going to be. We know from Matthew 24:3, this is the actual wording of the question put to Jesus.

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of "Thy coming, and the end of the world."

It is important that we understand the word "world" as used in the Greek manuscripts, is "aion",and "age, or an age of time". In the Hebrew, " `olam", which denotes a limited, or even an extended period of time, such as the context of each occurrence may demand. So as such, this is talking about the end of our present world age which is characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation.

Jesus is giving us in this chapter the seven events that must come to pass to bring to an end to this age, and the return of Christ. There are many church traditions that have complicate the simplicity the Jesus is teaching here. This is why we should have our ear tuned to the Lord Jesus Christ, and not to man's traditions. So the subject to this entire chapter is, "When is the end of this world age, and what are the events that mark that coming."

Remember that the closing thought to the last chapter was the little widow that had enough faith to give all over her livelihood to God and put here trust in God for provision. So don't forget that the famine in the end times is not for the bread that you eat, but for the knowledge and truth of God's Word.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

There will be a famine coming very shortly for the knowledge, and for the hearing of the Word of God.

 

[n2thelight]

Because so many church "leaders" have gotten bogged down in politics, the Old Testament arrangements for tithing which they try to bring forward to refer supposedly to pastoral stipends, etc., the scheme of literal interpretation which leads to the imminent return of Christ for the church, is something that often is one of the first things to go.

Christ 2nd coming nowhere in scripture is said to be imminent,if you so believe can you please tell me when did such happen?

 

[farouk]

Christ 2nd coming nowhere in scripture is said to be imminent,if you so believe can you please tell me when did such happen?

I see no prophecy which must happen first before the Lord comes for His church. Properly speaking, Israel is the key to prophecy.

 

[n2thelight]

I see no prophecy which must happen first before the Lord comes for His church. Properly speaking, Israel is the key to prophecy.

So everything that Christ said must and will happen before His return means nothing to you?

Mark 13 Matthew 24

When did Christ return become imminent ?

 

[farouk]

So everything that Christ said must and will happen before His return means nothing to you?

Mark 13 Matthew 24

When did Christ return become imminent ?

Matthew 24 has a strong Jewish background.

 

[n2thelight]

Matthew 24 has a strong Jewish background.

When did Christ return become imminent?