When to look for the rapture of the church

[Hidden In Him]

not sure how one can be both???

:)

That it could never be both is based on the assumption that there can only be seven years between the time the AC signs a covenant with Israel and the time Christ returns in power to set up His kingdom. I found this to be false. I believe there are three and half years of peace, followed by three and a half where the AC turns on Israel and seeks to annihilate them instead after breaking covenant with them. But then the rapture of the church takes place, the people of God are taken with Him to the marriage supper of the Lamb in Heaven, and the wrath of God begins on earth for an unspecified time before the Lord finally returns in power and the Battle of Armageddon takes place.

I believe the assumption that it all has to take place within the boundaries of seven years is taken from a misunderstanding of a verse in Daniel. I'd have to go back and look to remember which one.

 

[rockytopva]

And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law. - Genesis 19:4

As one mocked....

"Rapture is not in the bible!"
"You rapturists are a cult!"
"We do not believe in a pre-destruction of Sodom!"

And the day took Lots sons in law at unawares.

 

[Enoch111]

I believe the assumption that it all has to take place within the boundaries of seven years is taken from a misunderstanding of a verse in Daniel. I'd have to go back and look to remember which one.

The verse in question is Daniel 9:27, and I have inserted notes for clarity:
And he [the prince that shall come = the Antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven years]: and in the midst of the week [after 3 1/2 years] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [within the future temple at Jerusalem], and for the overspreading of abominations [the image of the Beast] he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined [God's wrath] shall be poured upon the desolate.

There is no misunderstanding when you take all the connected prophecies in Daniel and Revelation and harmonize them. The first 3 1/2 years is the same as the 42 months assigned to the Beast and Satan:And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev 13:5) This is the time when the Antichrist compels the inhabitants of the world to take the Mark of the Beast (Rev 13:14-18)

Now you have to take the subsequent desolations (devastations) which are triggered by the Abomination of Desolation, and place those within the next 3 1/2 years, which correspond to both the Great Tribulation and the Day of the LORD, as well as the 7th trumpet judgments (the seven vials or bowls). Which means that the reign of the Antichrist is over and God's wrath is poured out upon the world, following which the heavens and the earth are shaken, and the heavenly bodies moved out of their places .

 

[Naomi25]

I used to post step by step every parallel scripture for my belief...WASTE OF TIME...on deaf ears, and besides I post from my phone, and an ordeal to go back and forth to scripts.

So, no, I do not really know anyone with "grace" in their name speaking of having studied in depth any particular topic.

And when I say Indepth, I mean months, of researching every word in scripture that applies to the topic, and what it means, then, and who it applies to. And going over and over that Knowledge and then Asking God for His understanding...

Have you done that? About the Lords church, Redemption, The end time Tribulations, the Lambs Wrath, Gods Wrath? I have.

So who doen't know to do that IF they want to know and understand the knowledge ?

Glory to God,
Taken

I’m sorry, but, aren’t you making rather an assumption here? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean they have not done as you have and devoted considerable time and effort pouring over scripture and seeking God about it.

 

[Stranger]

Only meant that ‘actual’ stone is dead part of the corruption and you are saying they build it up again ...why would God call it abomination what they do in this dead temple made with men’s hands?

(2 Thess. 2:4) "...in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

You are blending Platonic philosophy with Bible interpretation. It is a common error. Just because something is 'material' doesn't make it evil and corrupt. You need to get away from that.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

...No mention of Peter?

I believe I referred to it in post #(89). I recognize we today are the temple of God and are living stones making up that temple. I do not see that as the third temple built in Jerusalem where the abomination of desolation will be set up.

Stranger

 

[Hidden In Him]

The verse in question is Daniel 9:27, and I have inserted notes for clarity:
And he [the prince that shall come = the Antichrist] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven years]: and in the midst of the week [after 3 1/2 years] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [within the future temple at Jerusalem], and for the overspreading of abominations [the image of the Beast] he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined [God's wrath] shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hey, Enoch. No, that's actually not the verse. I'd need to go back and find it... It's the verse that says 70 weeks have been determined.

There is no misunderstanding when you take all the connected prophecies in Daniel and Revelation and harmonize them. The first 3 1/2 years is the same as the 42 months assigned to the Beast and Satan:And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev 13:5) This is the time when the Antichrist compels the inhabitants of the world to take the Mark of the Beast (Rev 13:14-18)

Now you have to take the subsequent desolations (devastations) which are triggered by the Abomination of Desolation, and place those within the next 3 1/2 years, which correspond to both the Great Tribulation and the Day of the LORD, as well as the 7th trumpet judgments (the seven vials or bowls). Which means that the reign of the Antichrist is over

The full context of Revelations 13:5 reads as follows:

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Verse 5 in light of verse 6 means that what he "continues in" is blaspheming the name of God. Verse 7 may insinuate that he continues in the persecution of the saints for 42 months as well. But I place both these events inside the 7 years. In verse 9 He says something that suggests that judgment is going to come afterwards to those who made war against the saints:

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

In other words, it is a command to the faithful to remain patient, because those who kill the saints by the sword will eventually be killed by the sword themselves, when the time of His wrath begins (after the 42 months are over).

 

[historyb]

Interesting....so those who are expecting some rapture , stay prepared and keep their nose clean- “so that they are ready to go”....but those of us who expect nothing , walk close to God NOT to get taken out, but BEACUSE Of their LOVE for The FATHER...’just because ‘....

Exactly

 

[historyb]

Why? God wants the saved to suffer WRATH? ...Like Noah? The faithful...Poor thing,( He had to remain ON earth and learn to swim for a year so he wouldn't drown ... eh? ) lol



Taken

There none of that silliness either

 

[historyb]

Try Jesus' doctrine.

Where is John, the faithful SAVED and QUICKENED servant of Jesus, when Jesus "shows" him what will happen on earth when the Tribulation begins?

Taken

No tribulation, just in evangelicals mind.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Agreed, the rapture doctrine is just an escapist idea.

Just out of curiosity, History, what do you do with Matthew 24:40-44?

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[historyb]

It happened when Israel was taken by Rome. Remember he said this generation not 2000 years later

 

[Hidden In Him]

It happened when Israel was taken by Rome. Remember he said this generation not 2000 years later

You believe the return of Jesus Christ happened 2000 years ago?

 

[historyb]

You believe the return of Jesus Christ happened 2000 years ago?

I believe the only thing left to happen is Christ return nothing less nothing more

 

[Hidden In Him]

I believe the only thing left to happen is Christ return nothing less nothing more

The entire Chapter answers the question of what signs would precede His coming. Why would He list a dozen+ signs that would all be fulfilled 2000 years before He actually came?

 

[historyb]

I just don't believe evangelical things like this.

Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.
Matt 24:34

 

[Naomi25]

The problem with too many Christians nowadays is asking for EXPLICIT statements about everything, as though God gave us a textbook.

There is no explicit statement about a pre-tribulation Rapture. However, it is implied in the sequence of events which must occur before the Second Coming of Christ, and the nature of God's salvation.

The problem with this, is that a lot of the time Dispensationalists refuse to track the implicit thought through scripture.
Saying that the bible teaches ‘implicitly’ a Rapture, and the whole system that fits around it, and then being persistently unwilling to track that doctrine out for those who ask for it, preferring to rely instead on blunt statements of “must” and “of course”, doesn’t do their point of view any favours. As Christians we MUST be able to bring back everything we believe to scripture. And if it doesn’t state explicitly something we have in our doctrines, then we must track it very carefully through the implicit texts. And the thing about ‘implicit texts’....we can’t make them say whatever we want them to, just because they DONT say something explicitly. So, if we cannot show, with biblical faithfulness that certain “implicit” texts are proof for our particular view...which takes dedication and careful bible exegesis, then they are implicit of nothing.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I just don't believe evangelical things like this.

Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.
Matt 24:34

Whatever translation you are using for that verse is dubious. So are most of the English translations that followed KJV's lead. It is not "Verily I say unto you, 'This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.'" γενιά is translated "age" in other passages (see Ephesians 3:5, 3:21), and it should be here. His statement was "This age shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled." I think you've built your entire eschatology on a flawed translation of a single verse.

 

[historyb]

Whatever translation you are using for that verse is dubious. So are most of the English translations that followed KJV's lead. It is not "Verily I say unto you, 'This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.'" γενιά is translated "age" in other passages (see Ephesians 3:5, 3:21), and it should be here. His statement was "This age shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled." I think you've built your entire eschatology on a flawed translation of a single verse.

No it was flawed when I believed the rapture nonsense. As a preterist I am much more informed

 

[Copperhead]

Christ is where my hope is, not some doctrine of evangelicals.

It would seem that should apply to all doctrines, not just evangelical doctrines.