When to look for the rapture of the church

[Naomi25]

"here, have a skin then"

Thus says bbyrd...

 

[CoreIssue]

Eh....from how you're taking some of these scriptures....you could stand to think about them some more. You seem to be missing the point of many of them.

After all that rambling let's boil this down to the basic.


Two thirds of the population are going to die during the tribulation.


Others will suffer starvation, pestilence and war on a scale never seen before.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come* upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Tereo Ek.
Protection by removal from the area. Not in and through not in. Church won't be there.

Protection from what? The hour temptation Of temptation.The tribulation period

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3986 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
peirasmovß from (3985)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Peirasmos 6:23,822
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pi-ras-mos' Noun Masculine
Definition

1. an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
   1. trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:
2. 1. the trial of man's fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy
      1. an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
      2. an internal temptation to sin 1b
   2. of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
      1. of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
      2. adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one's character, faith, holiness
   3. temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men
      1. rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves

And where is it take place? All the world.

Don't try to argue our God dealt with others.

They were all removed the place, but none of the places was the whole earth.

If the place is the earth to be removed from you cannot be on the earth or in the world.

This did not happen in history so it had to be prophecy.

This is very specific. It leaves nothing to debate or doubt.

Either you're on the earth and in the world subject or you are not on the earth and subject.

This is God saving us from his wrath.

Your argument has a big hole.


The passage doesn't differentiate between Saint and sinner when it says the whole world.

This promise is only to the church. Trib Saints will suffer and will be martyred because they were not rapture because they were not church.

You can try as hard as you want but you will not find a single statement of church or Christian from the seventh church to the second coming on this earth.

 

[Copperhead]

Well then. It's now completely obvious, isn't it? God's church is going to be stuffed into an ARK and LIFTED above the earth...in the CLOUDS.
Eh gads! Why didn't I EVER see it BEFORE??

Sarcasm really is not necessary. If you can prove from both the OT and the NT that there removal, hiding, and protection of the Body of Messiah from the calamity coming upon the earth of the Tribulation period, then we would all be open to seeing it. I for one have laid out many passages in both OT and NT that show the redeemed are physically hidden and protected where the Lord is when all that is going on.

 

[Bobby Jo]

I would like to know precisely what was dishonest about my posts. And if you can't show that, you owe me an apology.

...

I guess you are too busy with other things than to defend your misrepresentations which I pointed out. So what was that word that started with an "H"? Yeah, I didn't think you'd want to man up. :)


Bobby Jo

 

[Enoch111]

So what was that word that started with an "H"?

There is one word which starts with "h" that fits Bobby Jo perfectly -- hectoring.

hec·tor
(hĕk′tər)
n.
A bully.
v. hec·tored, hec·tor·ing, hec·tors
v.tr.
To intimidate or dominate in a blustering way.
v.intr.
To behave like a bully; swagger.

 

[Bobby Jo]

There is one word which starts with "h" that fits Bobby Jo perfectly -- hectoring.
hec·tor
(hĕk′tər) ...

Can you think of a word which starts with a "C" and has the letters O,W,A and a couple more.

So for those who are seeking the TRUTH of Scripture versus the LIES of the commentators, consider the last verse of Daniel 6:

Dan. 6:28 So this Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian.​

Hmmmmm, so it seems that where disreputable commentators LIE about who Darius was, 6:28 spells it out. Daniel propsered during the reign of Darius and Cyrus, -- and it DOESN'T say "the Persians", it's singular. And THAT's because Darius was the LAST Babylonian Ruler, and Cyrus was the FIRST Medo/Persian Ruler.


Yeah, -- the Scriptural and Historical TRUTHs are mere inconveniences for those would deceive you. So Trust Scripture, but not so much the deceptions.



Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

Only in terms of seeing Yeshua in the OT. Unless something is shown to be meant as an allegory or is clearly new revelation "mystery" never before revealed, it is not proper to allegorize passages to fit one's idea of what the NT says. The is nothing in the NT or OT to show that Zechariah 14 is meant to be anything other than viewed literally.

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate. We see in different occasions where Christ and then his apostles interpret things in the NT that were seen differently in the OT, before Christ came. The Temple, for example. In the OT, the Temple was, obviously, that building. But throughout the NT we see that building being used for either the church or for the Christian themselves. "We are the temple of the HS". In fact, it is done with such regularity, that we must then consider two things: when we come to Revelation, we must at least consider the idea that when it talks of the Temple of God, that it actually is talking of the people of God, and that Daniel, in his 'vision of the end', when he talks of that abomination of desolation setting himself up in the temple of God, that it could also mean within the Church.
I know Dispensationalists deny this, but it is a biblical reality that sees the church described as such, and thus it sets an expectation that cannot be ignored.
There are other things that, like this, call on us to question if we should continue understanding things exactly as they were in OT times before Christ came. Sometimes the understanding is the same, but sometimes Christ's coming and fulfilment of the law changes how we are to understand what the Prophets said. The words remain true, but the focus changes from Israel, to Christ.

Isaiah 65 implies that there will be death in the millennial kingdom. The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 show us that sin will still be a problem in the millennial kingdom. And Zechariah 14 regarding those that will not go up to Jerusalem for the feast of tabernacles. And sin becomes such a problem that when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment a major rebellion that the nations will try to throw off the reign of Yeshua. Revelation 20 talks of that as does Psalms 2.

Isaiah 65 does bring out a lot of controversy! To understand them, we either have to believe it's not being truthful when it says "Behold! I create a new heavens and new earth!" Or we have to believe it is using analogy when it speaks of death to help portray what it will be like without it! Personally, I find one more believable than the other.

I'm afraid I completely disagree with you on Matt 13...these parables are not about the "Millennium"...in the way you would portray it. Of course...they would in the way I would portray it, but I suppose that's neither here nor there at present. The point is, Jesus is teaching on this present age...the Kingdom of heaven, which he claims is "Upon you" (Matt 12:28) then and there.

I've already touched on how I see Zech 14 and the NT verses I see that support that.

The problem I have with the notion of this grand 1000 golden years on earth where Jesus is Lord and King and rules with an iron rod...is...that it's really no better than now, is it? That's what you're all saying. Sin oozes over everything, death continues its march, and at the end it reaches a crechendo where Satan is 'released' and everyone stands against Christ...again...which is for naught...again. What's the point? I honestly can't see this "lather, rinse, repeat" in scripture. Jesus says that his Kingdom is not of this earth, and that the Kingdom has come upon us now. We are told he is ruling and reigning now. He told he 'bound' the strongman to 'plunder his house'. We know from scripture that at Christ's return that death, the final enemy, will be defeated, and that Christ, glorious and forever powerful, will truly rule with an iron rod. Does that imply he needs to stamp down rebellion? I think it means he does...once and for all, at his return. And then afterwards, never again. Where in the bible do we get the impression that when Jesus returns, it's not the be all and end all? The great hope for all Christians? Or does it teach it's just the next step on the line of 'challenges' he needs to meet? No, of course not! He defeats all his enemies with his breath! Done!

And all that fits into the statement in Revelation 2, Revelation 12, and Psalms 2 that Yeshua (and the Body of Yeshua) would rule with a rod of iron. Unless there is some getting out of line, there is no reason to rule with such severity.

I am not sure how one can allegorize all that away without taking illegal substances and having a serious mind altering experience. The only way to limit stepping all over one's self regarding scripture interpretation of these things is to follow the prescription given in the Torah which requires the testimony of two or more witnesses to establish a matter. The Bereans gave us the model for following that and were commended by the HS. They searched the scripture (OT) daily to see if what Paul (NT) taught them was true. So any matter requires equal, independent support from both OT and NT. Just like a court of law. One testimony does not conform to the other testimony, it either does or does not support the other testimony.

So...the only way I can end up not seeing what you see in scripture is by being on drugs? Nice.

 

[Naomi25]

Not "when things get bad" but when the Church is complete, and the full number of Gentiles has entered into the Church.

And "when things get bad" is not even the issue, and that is why you keep stumbling over this matter. God has a designated time for His wrath to be poured out upon this world, and that wrath is NOT for the saints. Once you understand that very simple truth, everything else will fall into place.

I honestly don't know what to say to that, because understanding that 'simple truth' would in no way let 'everything else' fall into place. I'm sorry, but there is just so much about Dispensationalism that it 'out of place', it would take much more than that.

I understand YOU think it's when the Church is complete, but, it's not even that, really. Because after this Rapture happens, people on the earth start believing in Jesus again. People who believe in Jesus belong to the Church. So, at best, you could say that when the Church reached a certain point, it got Raptured. And too bad for those new believers who have to experience God's wrath. Guess they don't measure up to the same promises of missing it like the rest of us Christians in the book, huh?

 

[Copperhead]

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate. We see in different occasions where Christ and then his apostles interpret things in the NT that were seen differently in the OT, before Christ came. The Temple, for example. In the OT, the Temple was, obviously, that building. But throughout the NT we see that building being used for either the church or for the Christian themselves. "We are the temple of the HS". In fact, it is done with such regularity, that we must then consider two things: when we come to Revelation, we must at least consider the idea that when it talks of the Temple of God, that it actually is talking of the people of God, and that Daniel, in his 'vision of the end', when he talks of that abomination of desolation setting himself up in the temple of God, that it could also mean within the Church.

That would be possible except that Yeshua pretty much stated in Matthew 24 that Daniel's comments about the abomination in the temple should be seen as a literal occurrence. Yeshua was speaking to a Hebrew audience in that passage. They were not looking for allegorical esoteric meanings in what Yeshua said and there is no indication that Yeshua expected them to.

So...the only way I can end up not seeing what you see in scripture is by being on drugs? Nice.

Don't get so melodramatic. I stated that those passages, when compared and viewed in light of each other, there really is no way they can be seen outside of a literal context. And yes, I would question a person's brain oxygen level if they didn't. The only other excuse is holding to a unwavering agenda. At least the drug thing is a weakness. The unwavering agenda thing is malicious and intentional.

The problem I have with the notion of this grand 1000 golden years on earth where Jesus is Lord and King and rules with an iron rod...is...that it's really no better than now, is it? That's what you're all saying.

You are correct! it will end up no better than what is going on now. To the point where, when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years, he is able to foment a major rebellion of the nations. Psalms is very clear in supporting that idea...

Psalms 2 Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.’ ”
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.

Compare that to Revelation 20.....

Revelation 20:7-10 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

But the examples in the kingdom parables support this. The Parable of the Mustard Tree. The birds are nesting in the tree. In the previous parable of the Sower, the birds are the evil ones.

The Parable of the Leaven. A woman is hiding leaven in three measures of meal. Three measures of meal is the fellowship offering at the Temple. Leaven is always symbolic of sin and corruption. Remember how Yeshua told His disciples to avoid the leaven of the Pharisees? To hide leaven in the fellowship offering at the temple was a capital crime.

 

[Naomi25]

Sarcasm really is not necessary. If you can prove from both the OT and the NT that there removal, hiding, and protection of the Body of Messiah from the calamity coming upon the earth of the Tribulation period, then we would all be open to seeing it. I for one have laid out many passages in both OT and NT that show the redeemed are physically hidden and protected where the Lord is when all that is going on.

Actually, at times, when reason, patience, bible verses and every other thing you can think of, have been used, and still the person in question tosses SHOUTY words at you like someone with tourettes and thinks stating things with the word "factually" in front of them again and again to prove their slightly illogical point....well....yeah...sarcasm is what I'm going with. And, since it's not against forum rules, I think I'll stick with it at this moment in time.

 

[Copperhead]

Actually, at times, when reason, patience, bible verses and every other thing you can think of, have been used, and still the person in question tosses SHOUTY words at you like someone with tourettes and thinks stating things with the word "factually" in front of them again and again to prove their slightly illogical point....well....yeah...sarcasm is what I'm going with. And, since it's not against forum rules, I think I'll stick with it at this moment in time.

Well, I do appreciate the honesty. It removes any suspicion. And it was a good chuckle.

But using Bible verses, you have failed to follow the Torah evidentiary requirement in establishing a matter as exampled to us by the Bereans in the Book of Acts. To be taken more seriously regarding your views, it would bolster your position if you adhered to that standard.

 

[Naomi25]

After all that rambling let's boil this down to the basic.

Oh, brother, this again! Haven't we been over this before? Fine, let's rehash:

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. -Revelation 3:10

téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

ek or ex: from, from out of
Original Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.

So, we're looking at the possibility of the translation here being "kept from", or "kept out of" or even "guard or observe or watch". But, for the sake of the argument:

That we can accept that the translation of "keep you from" as accurate; howeve, we can still argue that being 'kept from' is not the same as being removed entirely. I will touch on that below.
But...let's look at this "hour of trial"...

peirasmos: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Original Word: πειρασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: peirasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-ras-mos')
Definition: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Usage: (a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.

peirazó: to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt
Original Word: πειράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peirazó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-rad'-zo)
Definition: to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt
Usage: I try, tempt, test.

So...this thing that you claim HAS to be the Tribulation sounds a lot more like a time of temptation, than of "The Great Tribulation" that is the worst the whole world has ever seen.

Sort of seems to me you're squeezing words to fit a notion that you want it to fit.

And where is it take place? All the world.

Don't try to argue our God dealt with others.

They were all removed the place, but none of the places was the whole earth.

If the place is the earth to be removed from you cannot be on the earth or in the world.

You say that since this 'trial' is coming upon the 'whole world', that the only way to escape it is to leave the world. But...that is not the case with God. With Lot, yes, he removed Lot and his family before the destruction, but with Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego, he preserved them IN the flame. So...we know preservation can be supernaturally provided even when disaster is all around.
But, you say, the verses doesn't say protected IN, it says 'out of'! Well...does it? The ESV, which is a word for word translation, says "keep you from". So...maybe.
But, for me, the big question is this: if the ONLY way God can protect his people is to remove them from the earth, because the judgement is worldwide...then howcome he decides to protect the Jews down here? Seems a little iffy, doesn't it? You say he has to this...but then he does that....
Somebody's exegesis is not really making all the ends meet here.....

This did not happen in history so it had to be prophecy.

This is very specific. It leaves nothing to debate or doubt.

Beg to differ...and debate, apparently.

Either you're on the earth and in the world subject or you are not on the earth and subject.

Except the Jews in their safe little hidey hole.

This is God saving us from his wrath.

Your argument has a big hole.

God has already saved us from his wrath...Christ died for us. When Christ returns, and sits on his throne to judge the nations, we will go into everlasting life, and the unrighteous into everlasting judgement...this is the only wrath the bible is talking about us escaping. Apart from that, we will see persecution, natural disasters, political hardship, famine, disease and death. All of that will be the natural consequences of a fallen world, not God's 'special wrath' that he's pouring out. His final judgement upon all is where he will release it.

At least my argument came with bible verses. I've spent a great portion of today giving them to other people, supporting my view. You give me a rehash of two Greek words that may or may not hold significance to the debate, depending on how they were used.

The passage doesn't differentiate between Saint and sinner when it says the whole world.

Actually, yes it does, and this is something we have been over also...something you still refuse to acknowledge, even though it's biblically provable. Every time in Revelation it uses the phrase, "those who dwell upon the earth", or very like it, it is ALWAYS speaking of ungodly, wicked people who stand in open rebellion of God. Ive given you the verses before proving it, I won't waste my time doing it again.

This promise is only to the church. Trib Saints will suffer and will be martyred because they were not rapture because they were not church.

Ah yes, the elitist view. My Christianity is better than your Christianity. Sorry you suck, see you later.
The problem with this view is that the bible teaches that the faith we have to believe is a gift from God. (For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, -Ephesians 2:8)
So, the problem with that is that you are saying that God picking the best Christians now, Rapturing them out of the way, then punishing believers after he draws them to himself after that.
Now...I'm pretty sure you're not a 'Calvinist', in which case, you'd object to the idea that salvation is of God, rather than of free will. Too bad, I'm sorry, that's what scripture says. People are spiritually dead. Not blind...dead. It's a little hard for a dead person to will themselves to see when we can't even breath.
So...if you have a problem with the idea that God chooses to save some and not others, why don't you have a problem with the idea that some of "his own" are promised to avoid his wrath, while others of "his own" go through hell on earth?
Your inconsistency is wild.
Here's the facts: what God promises to one Christian, he promises to all. In Christ, all walls of divisions are down are we can all look forward to the same thing.

You can try as hard as you want but you will not find a single statement of church or Christian from the seventh church to the second coming on this earth.

Do a bible search for: Saint, or servants of God. The very fact that at one point demonic creatures are prohibited from harming "those who have the seal of God on their forehead" tells us that there are those belonging to God present.

 

[Copperhead]

You have expended a lot of effort to strain at a gnat over this, yet you have not produced substantive passages from the OT to support your position. For any position to be valid, one has to show evidentiary support from both OT and NT. Equal and impartial. It is the Torah requirement.

You could be right, but until you meet the evidentiary standard established in scripture, the case has no merit.

 

[bbyrd009]

Thus says bbyrd...

well cmon Naomi, we could go read the passage again if you like.
Pretty sure I can defend "here have a skin then" better than what we are all taught, "God can't even be in the presence of sin"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Proverbs 10:30-31
[30] The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth. [31] The mouth of the just bringeth forth wisdom: but the froward tongue shall be cut out.

Some might say the children of God are not righteous. Only Christ is. But the children of promise are of His seed. Reconciliation to God. One seed which remains and flourishes. Doesn’t the word say over and over His remains and endures.

Hebrews 12:27-29
[27] And this word , Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. [28] Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.



“Signifieth the removal of those things that are shaken” ...”that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.”

“...receiving a Kingdom which cannot be moved,...”

Another look at Proverbs 10:30 I’m the Lexicon and the “the righteous will never be removed” ...removed there is “shaken”...Proverbs 10:30 Lexicon: The righteous will never be shaken, But the wicked will not dwell in the land.

Again: “And this word , Yet once signifies the removing of those things that are shaken”

Matthew 13:41-43
[41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Why would God remove what He said can’t be shaken? Would be a question?

 

[Helen]

Actually, at times, when reason, patience, bible verses and every other thing you can think of, have been used, and still the person in question tosses SHOUTY words at you like someone with tourettes and thinks stating things with the word "factually" in front of them again and again to prove their slightly illogical point....well....yeah...sarcasm is what I'm going with. And, since it's not against forum rules, I think I'll stick with it at this moment in time.

Sounds good to me. :)
I believe Jesus used it too..."If your right eye offend thee..." "If thy hand offend...cut it off.."
Amazing how the literalists don't actually take things as literal.

The bible is a spiritual book which is spiritually understood.

 

[CoreIssue]

Oh, brother, this again! Haven't we been over this before? Fine, let's rehash:

Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. -Revelation 3:10

téreó: to watch over, to guard
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: to watch over, to guard
Usage: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

ek or ex: from, from out of
Original Word: ἐκ, ἐξ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: ek or ex
Phonetic Spelling: (ek)
Definition: from, from out of
Usage: from out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards.

So, we're looking at the possibility of the translation here being "kept from", or "kept out of" or even "guard or observe or watch". But, for the sake of the argument:

That we can accept that the translation of "keep you from" as accurate; howeve, we can still argue that being 'kept from' is not the same as being removed entirely. I will touch on that below.
But...let's look at this "hour of trial"...

peirasmos: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Original Word: πειρασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: peirasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-ras-mos')
Definition: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Usage: (a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.

peirazó: to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt
Original Word: πειράζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: peirazó
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-rad'-zo)
Definition: to make proof of, to attempt, test, tempt
Usage: I try, tempt, test.

So...this thing that you claim HAS to be the Tribulation sounds a lot more like a time of temptation, than of "The Great Tribulation" that is the worst the whole world has ever seen.

Sort of seems to me you're squeezing words to fit a notion that you want it to fit.


You say that since this 'trial' is coming upon the 'whole world', that the only way to escape it is to leave the world. But...that is not the case with God. With Lot, yes, he removed Lot and his family before the destruction, but with Shadrach, Meshack and Abednego, he preserved them IN the flame. So...we know preservation can be supernaturally provided even when disaster is all around.
But, you say, the verses doesn't say protected IN, it says 'out of'! Well...does it? The ESV, which is a word for word translation, says "keep you from". So...maybe.
But, for me, the big question is this: if the ONLY way God can protect his people is to remove them from the earth, because the judgement is worldwide...then howcome he decides to protect the Jews down here? Seems a little iffy, doesn't it? You say he has to this...but then he does that....
Somebody's exegesis is not really making all the ends meet here.....


Beg to differ...and debate, apparently.


Except the Jews in their safe little hidey hole.


God has already saved us from his wrath...Christ died for us. When Christ returns, and sits on his throne to judge the nations, we will go into everlasting life, and the unrighteous into everlasting judgement...this is the only wrath the bible is talking about us escaping. Apart from that, we will see persecution, natural disasters, political hardship, famine, disease and death. All of that will be the natural consequences of a fallen world, not God's 'special wrath' that he's pouring out. His final judgement upon all is where he will release it.

At least my argument came with bible verses. I've spent a great portion of today giving them to other people, supporting my view. You give me a rehash of two Greek words that may or may not hold significance to the debate, depending on how they were used.


Actually, yes it does, and this is something we have been over also...something you still refuse to acknowledge, even though it's biblically provable. Every time in Revelation it uses the phrase, "those who dwell upon the earth", or very like it, it is ALWAYS speaking of ungodly, wicked people who stand in open rebellion of God. Ive given you the verses before proving it, I won't waste my time doing it again.


Ah yes, the elitist view. My Christianity is better than your Christianity. Sorry you suck, see you later.
The problem with this view is that the bible teaches that the faith we have to believe is a gift from God. (For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, -Ephesians 2:8)
So, the problem with that is that you are saying that God picking the best Christians now, Rapturing them out of the way, then punishing believers after he draws them to himself after that.
Now...I'm pretty sure you're not a 'Calvinist', in which case, you'd object to the idea that salvation is of God, rather than of free will. Too bad, I'm sorry, that's what scripture says. People are spiritually dead. Not blind...dead. It's a little hard for a dead person to will themselves to see when we can't even breath.
So...if you have a problem with the idea that God chooses to save some and not others, why don't you have a problem with the idea that some of "his own" are promised to avoid his wrath, while others of "his own" go through hell on earth?
Your inconsistency is wild.
Here's the facts: what God promises to one Christian, he promises to all. In Christ, all walls of divisions are down are we can all look forward to the same thing.


Do a bible search for: Saint, or servants of God. The very fact that at one point demonic creatures are prohibited from harming "those who have the seal of God on their forehead" tells us that there are those belonging to God present.

Your problem is in defining Tereo you neglected ek. They are not just two words they are a phrase in phrases have different meanings than individual words. Translation Is kept from. From does not mean in and through. It means elsewhere. There is no elsewhere on the earth from the trib.

The sealed are the woman, not Church.

Revelation 12:6
6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Taken care of not Tereo ek from the world. Only the church is Tereo ek.

And of course you did exactly what I said you should not.

Lot was not removed from the whole world because the place of issue was not the whole world.

It does not matter what the issue or solution is for you. What the Bible says is what matters.

Same does not mean servant of God. It means set apart for God.

Angels are servants of God but they are not saints.

Even in heaven and the new Jerusalem Israel and the church are not identical. Nor are the saved who were neither.

I repeat, from the seventh to the second coming there is absolutely no mention of church or Christian revelation.

Those that turn to God in the tribulation are called tribulation saints. God does not protect them from wrath.

Revelation 7
, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”
14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You need to do a lot more study because what you're saying is simply wrong.

But that requires doing so in open-heart, mind and ears. Not sure you can do it,

 

[Trekson]

Those that turn to God in the tribulation are called tribulation saints. God does not protect them from wrath.

No such thing, whomever you consider "tribulation" saints are in fact the still here church. Rev. 7:14 is a picture of the rapture, bro. The seals are not part of anyone's wrath any more than the a-bomb, ww1, ww2, korea, Vietnam, etc. were.

 

[CoreIssue]

No such thing, whomever you consider "tribulation" saints are in fact the still here church. Rev. 7:14 is a picture of the rapture, bro. The seals are not part of anyone's wrath any more than the a-bomb, ww1, ww2, korea, Vietnam, etc. were.

Show me a single mention of church or Christian from the 7th church to the second coming in Revelation. You cannot.

Deal with Revelation 3:10.

 

[Davy]

you must provide both NT and OT support for any assertion you make. That is the standard set in scripture.
....

Here's a passage in Isaiah linked to 1 Cor.15 and the resurrection:

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

It starts off by the saved declaring the wonderful things God has done, pointing to His ending of this world.


6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

In Matthew 26, Jesus said He wouldn't drink of the wine with His disciples at the time of His coming, not until anew in His Father's Kingdom. Per Matt.8 and Luke 14, that feast is about the supper in God's future kingdom, sitting down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at table. He promised it. "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that My house may be filled," (Luke 14:23). Notice here in Isaiah 25 that feast is to "all people".


7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

This is where Apostle Paul pulled from about death being swallowed up in victory when teaching about the resurrection to the "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15. That is what that "covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations" is about.


9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, This is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us": "This is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
KJV