When was the last time you heard the word Rapture in your Church?

[Hidden In Him]

The 2 you do quote, just state that we are not appointed to and He will deliver us from, His wrath. This He will do by protection, not removal, as many prophesies tell us.

Keraz, if you teach protection not removal, are you saying the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place while the Battle of Armageddon is going on?

I am NOT a preterist. Some prophesies are fulfilled, but most remain to happen in the future.

Thank Heavens. I've had just about all the Historicists I can take.

 

[Nancy]

Keraz, if you teach protection not removal, are you saying the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place while the Battle of Armageddon is going on?


Thank Heavens. I've had just about all the Historicists I can take.

"are you saying the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place while the Battle of Armageddon is going on?" Maybe as we will be like Him, we too can be in both places at one time...just a thought. He is said to be omnipresent so, why not us as well, at least in the spiritual realm of eternity as opposed to time?

"Thank Heavens. I've had just about all the Historicists I can take."
Lol

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, if you teach protection not removal, are you saying the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place while the Battle of Armageddon is going on?

Revelation 19:7-9 are the only verses about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. They don't say when it will happen.
I believe it will be after Armageddon, as that will be the time for celebrations.

The protection I refer to is for the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal event that will change the world and set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt.
All the Lord's holy people, His faithful Christians, will be in the holy Land before the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls and half will be taken to a place of safety on earth, the rest must remain. Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:6-17

 

[Taken]

I...think...I understood that. Your basic idea of the different heavens and the notion of body/spirit leaving corruption and coming together in the new perfect, along with a remade earth. Etc.

However...what I am unsure of is....how has any of that got to do with my post asking about John 14? My point was that Dispensationalists often use that verse to 'prove' that Jesus is going to come and rapture his saints and take them to heaven, and to me, there is no reference to returning to heaven in that passage...only that where Jesus will be, so shall we.

I can not say what "dispensationalists" believe or "quote".
I am not big on "name tags".

John 14
IS Jesus revealing TO (men who have been following Him and Believing) SHALL EXPECT.

1) Jesus is Bodily Leaving the Earth.
2) They Bodily can not go WITH Him.
3) AFTER Jesus Bodily Leaves....
4) The Holy Spirit WILL be WITH Them.

5) Men LISTENING, were Still in Confusion of the Understanding.

6) Jesus continued speaking;
Although Jesus will Bodily leave, no more SEEN, by the men.....He WILL Come to them IN SPIRIT, and forever BE WITH THEM.

In essence:
Jesus TAUGHT Baptism of the Holy Spirit,
(Which IS a mans "natural spirit" (of a mans seed), becoming BORN AGAIN, (of Gods Seed).
Jesus, as a man, DID NOT BAPTIZE men with the INDWELLING SPIRIT.

Christ IS the Power/Spirit of God.
1 Cor 1:24

Jesus is the Seed of God, is the Word of God.
John 1:1
Luke 8:11

Christ IS the Seed of God
Gal 3:16


After Jesus, the man, BODILY left the Earth...
The Spirit of God...Christ...Baptized THEM, with the Spirit of God.
Which IS the Point at Which "their" natural spirits, BECAME, BORN AGAIN with Gods SEED.
That is revealed;
Acts 2: 1,2,3,4

John 14 reveals;
The Holy Spirit is Gods Truth, is a Comforter,
Is the Spirit, the Father, the Son, within a man.

1 John 3:9
Reveals a man born of God, sins no more.
Such a man, By the Power of God within Him, shall never again, Be Against God.

[QUOTE[And since, by definition, Jesus will have left heaven and come to earth for us, [/QUOTE]

No.
Consider the teaching and understanding.

God IS HOLY....Men and the Earth is Corrupt.
God DOES NOT "expose" Himself to Corruption.
God IS TOO HOLY, to be "IN the Presence OF SIN"
Jesus came to EARTH....HOW?
AS HE IS? No.
Jesus came to EARTH....having taken UPON HIMSELF, a BODY, "corrupt men could see".
Phil 2:7

Jesus "LOOKED LIKE" earthly men, on the outside, yet HIS INSIDE, "truth, life", remained HOLY, void of sin.

As Jesus assended up to the Clouds, HIS BODY WAS GLORIFIED, and Last "SEEN" IN the Clouds.(lower heavens, men Can see).

The same HOW Jesus' Glorifed body left the earth, IS the same How Glorified bodies of men (in Christ) shall leave and GO TO THE CLOUDS.

Jesus shall DESCEND From Heaven TO the Clouds...and CALL HIS CHURCH UP TO HIM, that HIS CHURCH shall MEET HIM in the Clouds. (Not ON the CORRUPT EARTH).
1 Thes 4:17

Jesus' "CHURCH", ie the Born Again, shall be IN the Clouds WITH Christ Jesus, ABOVE the face of the Earth, while the pronouncement of the Wrath of God, commences UPON the EARTH. (Beginning of the 7 year Tribulation).
Why?

Because God hath NOT appointed the Born Again TO HIS WRATH.
1 Thes 5:9

he will be on earth, and there is no mention of him returning, with us, to heaven, then it is pure supposition to suggest it.

Disagree.

As always, I'm happy to be proven wrong in this issue...hey...who wouldn't love to be whisked away before all the bad stuff. But I just don't see scripture allowing us to read it in.

Everything has a precise ORDER (WAY) according to God. Jesus' second coming, clearly has A Decent to the Clouds, Before He comes to the earth.
Christ Jesus WILL NOT return "TO" the Earth in HIS GLORY, while the Earth is still Corrupt.
And the Earth is definitely still CORRUPT during the Tribulation.
Jesus IS in the AIR/Clouds, WIth HIS Church, At the ending of the Tribulation.....
Men on earth Against God, are Dead.
Evil spirits are still roaming on Earth.
Michael and the holy spirits, battle in the air, against the evil spirits.
Rev 12:7
The battle ends WITH Jesus' Sword...which IS the Word out of His mouth.
Rev 19:21

God did not appoint His Wrath to those Saved "unto" Him.

Noah was Saved "unto" Him, in a similar fashion, as Noah was RAISED UP to the Face of the Waters, While the Earth was "destroyed" (cleansed), with Water.
Gen 7:18

Like it was in the days of Noah, so also shall it be again.
Luke 17:26

(People are not the only corrupt thing, or the only thing God renews)

Men first knew of being Baptized with Water...
Thereafter, Baptized with Fire, ie the Spirit of God.

So yes friend, it is taught. Gods Wrath is appointed upon the Corrupt. (Earth, Lower Heavens, mankind, and evil spirits) And Not upon what He has restored.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Hidden In Him]

Revelation 19:7-9 are the only verses about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. They don't say when it will happen.
I believe it will be after Armageddon, as that will be the time for celebrations.

How long after Armageddon do you believe it will be?

 

[n2thelight]

The only way one gets to heaven before the return of Christ is if they die first.

Now I'm sure(but not really)most on these forums have more than a 5th grade education,with that said ,let's break this down

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

I'm almost certain you were all taught to follow the subject,so what's the subject of the above?Answer,Christ coming and our gathering to Him.

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

Now let's see who comes with Christ when He returns

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

Okay let's do this subject thing again,what is it?

Those who are asleep(died) and you not being ignorant .

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Now following the subject,whom does Christ bring with Him?

Those who sleep(died)or those who were raptured?

Again the only way one gets to Heaven is if they die first,I don't see nothing that says those raptured return with Him,it says those that have died return with Him,period!!!!!

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.



Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

 

[Hidden In Him]

"are you saying the marriage supper of the Lamb will take place while the Battle of Armageddon is going on?" Maybe as we will be like Him, we too can be in both places at one time...just a thought. He is said to be omnipresent so, why not us as well, at least in the spiritual realm of eternity as opposed to time?

Not sure I'd wanna be in both places at the same time, LoL.

It would make for kind of a creepy wedding don't you think?

 

[n2thelight]

Now let's do the,I go prepare a place for you.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

Now the subject is in verse one.

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.

John 14:4 "And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."

Why? Because for the last three years Jesus told them over and over about His journey to the cross, His death and His resurrection. This is the way to the place where the preparation is made for theirs and our return to Him. That way leads down the path to the cross, and at His death it leads into the tomb where on the third day, Jesus rose for the dead to ascended to be with the father fifty days later.

Our resting place is in His Word, and under the shed blood of Jesus.

 

[Dave L]

We are in tribulation now? Funny- if my life so far was 'tribulation', then long may it continue!

The clearly described Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls of Revelation await fulfilment.
But before them, comes the Great and terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal.
At that event, the Jewish people and their evil neighbors will be uprooted. [a euphemism for killed] Jeremiah 12:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Isaiah 17:1, Isaiah 22:14, + and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:4, Romans 9:27

Count yourself lucky while ISIS and other Antichrist regimes behead your Christian brethren and their families. And if you are not experiencing persecution, you are not living a godly life according to Paul. How many times have you lost a job from following Christ?

 

[LC627]

I get kind of tired of hearing people after every earthquake or natural disaster say, "Get ready here comes Jesus!"
While I agree that we should look forward to His coming, no one should ever try and predict in the time/hour of His 2nd coming.

Ironically many overlook this but the 2nd coming will occur when people say, "peace and safety"
1 Thess. 5:1-3

 

[Enoch111]

Revelation 19:7-9 are the only verses about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. They don't say when it will happen. I believe it will be after Armageddon, as that will be the time for celebrations.

We need to follow the sequence of events as laid out, and what you are suggesting is THE REVERSE of what is in Scripture.

THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (Rev 19:7)

THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Rev 19:19)

The book of Revelation is generally chronological. The Rapture is not mentioned in this book, neither do we see the word "church" or "churches" (after chapter 3). The "saints" mentioned are the Tribulation saints, all of whom are beheaded by the Antichrist.

So the sequence of events taking all Scriptures into account are:
1. The Resurrection/Rapture [Christ comes FOR His saints]
2. The Tribulation (3 1/2 years)
3. The Great Tribulation (3 1/2 years)
4. The unprecedented major cosmic disturbances (Rev 6)
5. The Second Coming of Christ [Christ comes WITH His saints]
6. The battle of Armageddon

While the Great Tribulation occurs on earth, the judgment of the resurrected/raptured saints at the Judgment Seat of Christ would be taking place, followed by the Marriage of the Lamb (both events in Heaven). Which is then followed by the second coming of Christ.

 

[Keraz]

We need to follow the sequence of events as laid out, and what you are suggesting is THE REVERSE of what is in Scripture.

But you don't keep to the given sequence of Revelation.
You place the Sixth Seal after the GT. Impossible for several reasons:
1/ The Seals must be opened before the scroll can be unrolled, for the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
2/ What is described in the SS, isn't the same as for Jesus' Return.
3/ There is no reason for a worldwide destruction to happen after the Great Trib. Armageddon is not the Sixth Seal.

While the Great Tribulation occurs on earth, the judgment of the resurrected/raptured saints at the Judgment Seat of Christ would be taking place, followed by the Marriage of the Lamb (both events in Heaven). Which is then followed by the second coming of Christ.

All this is speculation and is simply unscriptural.
There is no resurrection until Jesus Returns and then it is only for the martyrs killed during the GT. Revelation 20:4

 

[Dave L]

One thing you folks might want to consider is the great tribulation being long past. It was a Jewish tribulation centered on Jerusalem in 70 AD. But great tribulation also spans the entire New Covenant era for the Church via the Antichrist. First Nero, then clearly identified by the historic creeds as the Papacy from the tenth century until the French Revolution.

Jesus told the apostles to leave Jerusalem saying "when you see the abomination of desolation". "You" is second person, present tense plural meaning it applied to them and not us.

 

[Keraz]

One thing you folks might want to consider is the great tribulation being long past. It was a Jewish tribulation centered on Jerusalem in 70 AD. But great tribulation also spans the entire New Covenant era for the Church via the Antichrist. First Nero, then clearly identified by the historic creeds as the Papacy from the tenth century until the French Revolution.

Jesus told the apostles to leave Jerusalem saying "when you see the abomination of desolation". "You" is second person, present tense plural meaning it applied to them and not us.

I considered it and I reject it.
The plainly describes cosmic and earthly things in Revelation and all the prophets, simply have not yet happened.
Saying that 'you' must mean the immediate audience is wrong from the fact that those whom Jesus was talking were likely dead before 70 AD and prophecy is commonly Written in the present or past tense, because of the surety of its fulfilment.
Note Zechariah 9:9b, See; your King is coming to you, His victory won; mounted on a donkey.....Fulfilled hundreds of years later!

 

[Ac28]

One thing you folks might want to consider is the great tribulation being long past. It was a Jewish tribulation centered on Jerusalem in 70 AD. But great tribulation also spans the entire New Covenant era for the Church via the Antichrist. First Nero, then clearly identified by the historic creeds as the Papacy from the tenth century until the French Revolution.

Jesus told the apostles to leave Jerusalem saying "when you see the abomination of desolation". "You" is second person, present tense plural meaning it applied to them and not us.

No one with any knowledge of the Bible would entertain the absurd heretical possibility that the tribulation has already occurred.

 

[Willie T]

I considered it and I reject it.
The plainly describes cosmic and earthly things in Revelation and all the prophets, simply have not yet happened.
Saying that 'you' must mean the immediate audience is wrong from the fact that those whom Jesus was talking were likely dead before 70 AD and prophecy is commonly Written in the present or past tense, because of the surety of its fulfilment.
Note Zechariah 9:9b, See; your King is coming to you, His victory won; mounted on a donkey.....Fulfilled hundreds of years later!

Go back and read from the BEGINNING of Zachariah 9. LOL

 

[Hidden In Him]

Revelation 19:7-9 are the only verses about the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. They don't say when it will happen.
I believe it will be after Armageddon, as that will be the time for celebrations.

Keraz, how long afterwards do you believe it will be? The question has bearing on whether your eschatological construct is plausible or not.

 

[Keraz]

Go back and read from the BEGINNING of Zachariah 9. LOL

I see Zechariah 9:1-17 as all end time prophecy. EXCEPT verse 9b, that confirms who is our King and who will rule the world; verse 10b.
Do not think these prophesies belong only to Israel, as Judah and Ephraim are mentioned in verse 13, because we Christians are the inheritors of God's promises through Jesus. Galatians 3:26-29

Keraz, how long afterwards do you believe it will be? The question has bearing on whether your eschatological construct is plausible or not.

I believe what the Bible tells us. It doesn't say when or where the Marriage supper will be.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I believe what the Bible tells us. It doesn't say when or where the Marriage supper will be.

I thought you said your interpretation of "the rapture" was that they would be taken by the Lord to Jerusalem. Are you not insinuating that the Marriage Supper will be there? If not, then where else would it be?

 

[Keraz]

I thought you said your interpretation of "the rapture" was that they would be taken by the Lord to Jerusalem. Are you not insinuating that the Marriage Supper will be there? If not, then where else would it be?

Yes, the 'harparzo' of 1 Thess 4:17 is not to heaven, but to where Jesus is. Firstly in the clouds, then to His destination; Jerusalem. Proved by Zechariah 14:4 Note; He fights against the nations first, verse 3.