When was the last time you heard the word Rapture in your Church?

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Naomi25

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I can not say what "dispensationalists" believe or "quote".
I am not big on "name tags".

John 14
IS Jesus revealing TO (men who have been following Him and Believing) SHALL EXPECT.

1) Jesus is Bodily Leaving the Earth.
2) They Bodily can not go WITH Him.
3) AFTER Jesus Bodily Leaves....
4) The Holy Spirit WILL be WITH Them.

5) Men LISTENING, were Still in Confusion of the Understanding.

6) Jesus continued speaking;
Although Jesus will Bodily leave, no more SEEN, by the men.....He WILL Come to them IN SPIRIT, and forever BE WITH THEM.

Jesus did continue speaking, but he does not promise to come IN THE SPIRIT, he promises he will come again.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

That is a physical, tangible promise. He is not speaking, in this section, about the promise of the Holy Spirit...which, may I add, he does NOT reference as his own spirit, but talks of as it's own, separate person, which the Spirit is.

In essence:
Jesus TAUGHT Baptism of the Holy Spirit,
(Which IS a mans "natural spirit" (of a mans seed), becoming BORN AGAIN, (of Gods Seed).
Jesus, as a man, DID NOT BAPTIZE men with the INDWELLING SPIRIT.

Christ IS the Power/Spirit of God.
1 Cor 1:24

Jesus is the Seed of God, is the Word of God.
John 1:1
Luke 8:11

Christ IS the Seed of God
Gal 3:16

Yes, Jesus is the Word of God. But his is not the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, -John 14:16

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. -John 14:26

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. -John 15:26

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7


All of these verses make it clear that Jesus is talking about another person, a 'he', who comes only after Jesus has left, and he will magnify Jesus in our lives. This is another person, not Jesus. Unless Jesus has a personality disorder.

After Jesus, the man, BODILY left the Earth...
The Spirit of God...Christ...Baptized THEM, with the Spirit of God.
Which IS the Point at Which "their" natural spirits, BECAME, BORN AGAIN with Gods SEED.
That is revealed;
Acts 2: 1,2,3,4

John 14 reveals;
The Holy Spirit is Gods Truth, is a Comforter,
Is the Spirit, the Father, the Son, within a man.

1 John 3:9
Reveals a man born of God, sins no more.
Such a man, By the Power of God within Him, shall never again, Be Against God.


I disagree. I don't see any of that in those verses. At all. Well, the part about 'the spirit' being Christ, that is.
Let me ask you a question. We know when Christ was raised from the dead that he had a new, spiritual body...that which we hope to attain on our own resurrections. The firstfruits. It had certain "far out" aspects to it...teleportation appearing to be one of them! But, it was undoubtably a physical body. So, my question is this: where in scripture does it give us leave to think that Christ has 'done away with' that body? Because there seems to be a correlation between him having that body and being present on earth, and the "helper" being sent. You seem to assume that as soon as Christ ascends back to heaven then 'wham, bam' everything changes and now he can head on back down to earth and be 'in' his followers because all he needed was a breath of heaven air, or something. That was all he meant when he said that the Spirit couldn't come until he left.
No...there is an interplay between the Trinity memebers here...there has been all along. Christ remains in physical form, a true intecesor who understands his bride. And the Holy Spirit, the promised helper, resonates within every believer, pointing to the work of Christ, pulling us closer to him.

[QUOTE[And since, by definition, Jesus will have left heaven and come to earth for us,

No.
Consider the teaching and understanding.

God IS HOLY....Men and the Earth is Corrupt.
God DOES NOT "expose" Himself to Corruption.
God IS TOO HOLY, to be "IN the Presence OF SIN"
Jesus came to EARTH....HOW?
AS HE IS? No.
Jesus came to EARTH....having taken UPON HIMSELF, a BODY, "corrupt men could see".
Phil 2:7

Jesus "LOOKED LIKE" earthly men, on the outside, yet HIS INSIDE, "truth, life", remained HOLY, void of sin.

As Jesus assended up to the Clouds, HIS BODY WAS GLORIFIED, and Last "SEEN" IN the Clouds.(lower heavens, men Can see).

The same HOW Jesus' Glorifed body left the earth, IS the same How Glorified bodies of men (in Christ) shall leave and GO TO THE CLOUDS.

Jesus shall DESCEND From Heaven TO the Clouds...and CALL HIS CHURCH UP TO HIM, that HIS CHURCH shall MEET HIM in the Clouds. (Not ON the CORRUPT EARTH).
1 Thes 4:17
[/QUOTE]

There's a fair bit of supposition in this paragraph. Jesus "looked like" earthly men? Most theologians would agree that's because he was fully man. Sinful? No, but fully man none the less.
And was Jesus' body glorified in the clouds? Acts doesn't say so. He already had his new body, does any scripture say that there is any extra process needed? He was the firstfruits, we come after...what about for us? For us once we receive our new bodies, that's it. Yes, the bible says that we will recieve them at the time of Rapture, at our Lords return, but it doesn't specifically say it is the clouds that make the process complete. That's just speculation on your part. And as for the Rapture? There is just as much evidence to say that once that event has happened, Christ will continue downwards to claim the Earth and make it all new, as there is to say we go back up. More, I'd say, if we were going to take the verses at face value.

Jesus' "CHURCH", ie the Born Again, shall be IN the Clouds WITH Christ Jesus, ABOVE the face of the Earth, while the pronouncement of the Wrath of God, commences UPON the EARTH. (Beginning of the 7 year Tribulation).
Why?

Because God hath NOT appointed the Born Again TO HIS WRATH.
1 Thes 5:9

Right...wrath. That being the final judgement of the lake of fire. We who are in Christ Jesus are spared the wrath to come, the second death.

Disagree.
Ditto

Everything has a precise ORDER (WAY) according to God. Jesus' second coming, clearly has A Decent to the Clouds, Before He comes to the earth.
Christ Jesus WILL NOT return "TO" the Earth in HIS GLORY, while the Earth is still Corrupt.
And the Earth is definitely still CORRUPT during the Tribulation.
Jesus IS in the AIR/Clouds, WIth HIS Church, At the ending of the Tribulation.....
Men on earth Against God, are Dead.
Evil spirits are still roaming on Earth.
Michael and the holy spirits, battle in the air, against the evil spirits.
Rev 12:7
The battle ends WITH Jesus' Sword...which IS the Word out of His mouth.
Rev 19:21

God did not appoint His Wrath to those Saved "unto" Him.

Noah was Saved "unto" Him, in a similar fashion, as Noah was RAISED UP to the Face of the Waters, While the Earth was "destroyed" (cleansed), with Water.
Gen 7:18

Like it was in the days of Noah, so also shall it be again.
Luke 17:26

(People are not the only corrupt thing, or the only thing God renews)

Men first knew of being Baptized with Water...
Thereafter, Baptized with Fire, ie the Spirit of God.

So yes friend, it is taught. Gods Wrath is appointed upon the Corrupt. (Earth, Lower Heavens, mankind, and evil spirits) And Not upon what He has restored.

God Bless,
Taken

Well, one would assume that he would have to come through the clouds on his way down, as clouds are usually in between heaven and earth.
And I'd also say it's sort of obvious that the earth is filled with wickedness. That's the reason he's coming back. To judge and to make all things new. As long as he's in heaven, he is giving the wicked time to repent. When he returns, it will be riding a white horse, his word a sword, and no man will stand against him.
But for those "in him", that time will not touch us. We will be 'with' him...'where he is'. Which, apparently, will be here, judging, and making all things new.
 
D

Dave L

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No one with any knowledge of the Bible would entertain the absurd heretical possibility that the tribulation has already occurred.
The Jewish Great Tribulation Jesus warned about happened in AD 70 with Jerusalem's destruction. But great tribulation also spans the entire New Covenant era for the Church via the Antichrist. First Nero, then clearly identified by the historic creeds as the Papacy from the tenth century until the French Revolution.

Jesus told the apostles to leave Jerusalem saying "when you see the abomination of desolation". "You" is second person, present tense plural meaning it applied to them and not us.
 

Hidden In Him

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Yes, the 'harparzo' of 1 Thess 4:17 is not to heaven, but to where Jesus is. Firstly in the clouds, then to His destination; Jerusalem. Proved by Zechariah 14:4 Note; He fights against the nations first, verse 3.
Yes, the 'harparzo' of 1 Thess 4:17 is not to heaven, but to where Jesus is. Firstly in the clouds, then to His destination; Jerusalem. Proved by Zechariah 14:4 Note; He fights against the nations first, verse 3.

Actually the battle continues through verse 5.

But let me quote a few passages on how the battle will end:

"The wrath of the Lord is upon all nations, and His anger upon the number of them, to destroy them and give them up to slaughter. And their slain shall be cast forth, and the stench of their corpses shall arise, and the mountains shall be made wet with their blood. And all the powers of the heavens shall melt, and the sky shall be rolled up like a scroll… My sword has been made drunk in heaven. Behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and with judgment upon a people doomed to destruction… for the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in Idumea… and the land shall be soaked with blood, and shall be filled with their fat (i.e. dead flesh). For it is the Day of the Lord's judgment, and the year of the recompense of Zion in judgment. (Isaiah 34:2-8 LXX)

"Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments dyed from Bozrah? He who is glorious in His apparel, travelling in the greatness of His strength?"
"I who speak in righteousness, Mighty to save."
"Why are You red in Your apparel, and Your garments like he who treads in the wine vat?"
"I have trodden the winepress alone… I will tread them in My anger, and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments, and I will stain all My raiment. For the Day of vengeance is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come." (Isaiah 63:1–4)

My point is this: Unless the Lord is going to call a "Time out!" so the Marriage Supper can take place, you have it following directly on the heals of a extremely gruesome series of events, where millions upon millions of men die and their corpses raise such a stench near Israel's southern border that they have to be buried in a mass grave as a result, and their blood drained from them by means of trampling, i.e. by the angels of God. The Lord Himself appears to also take some form of active role in this.

Isn't it is a strange context in which to be marrying?
 
D

Dave L

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I considered it and I reject it.
The plainly describes cosmic and earthly things in Revelation and all the prophets, simply have not yet happened.
Saying that 'you' must mean the immediate audience is wrong from the fact that those whom Jesus was talking were likely dead before 70 AD and prophecy is commonly Written in the present or past tense, because of the surety of its fulfilment.
Note Zechariah 9:9b, See; your King is coming to you, His victory won; mounted on a donkey.....Fulfilled hundreds of years later!
You are confusing Two Tribulations, the Jewish tribulation Jesus warned the apostles to look for in their day, using the present tense of You, = those he spoke to. And the great tribulations of the New Covenant era afflicting Christians.

If you could produce even one scripture to support a 7 year tribulation or a pre-trib rapture, your prophecies would be true. But they are not.
 

Taken

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Jesus did continue speaking, but he does not promise to come IN THE SPIRIT, he promises he will come again.

Naomi25 ~
First off, how I learn and study, begins with my choices and decisions, which are;
I believe in thee Lord God Almighty, One God, whose "parts" do specific things, the Scriptures are His approved information/knowledge for all men, Scriptures are all True, not every Scripture Applies to All men, there are Two understanding of Scripture (Gods and the understanding in the individual Minds of every individual man).
I believe there Is a method for mankind to receive Gods Understanding.

I believe ALL of creation, is Gods Original Works, were all created good, and is attributed To God.
I believe "almost" ALL of Gods creations have become "corrupt".
I believe God can and does, according to; (His WAY) "make" His creations, and even Himself appointed to particular things.

(Not speaking of angels, worlds, animals, but specifically the MAN-KIND of thing that God created, that applies specifically to us.)

I believe God is Completely Holy. And that ANYthing Corrupt, MUST have a Buffer, between the Thing and Himself, for the purpose of preserving His OWN ABSOLUTE Holiness.

This is my premise, already decided, beforehand and necessary for me, before I read and study the word of God, also necessary for dividing the word of God, of what applies to me and that which does not.

While two People may believe the SAME knowledge IN Scripture, it does not mean the two Understand SAME way, or that the knowledge APPLIES to them the SAME.

And, I do not know what all others believe, or what they understand, or how

Next post, I will address your post.

God Bless,
Taken
 

bbyrd009

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I believe God is Completely Holy. And that ANYthing Corrupt, MUST have a Buffer, between the Thing and Himself, for the purpose of preserving His OWN ABSOLUTE Holiness.
"Hey, where you guys @?"
"ah, we're behind this tree (doctrine)."
"And what do you think, I'm not over there behind that tree too?"
silly humans
 
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Taken

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Jesus did continue speaking, but he does not promise to come IN THE SPIRIT, he promises he will come again.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3

That is a physical, tangible promise. He is not speaking, in this section, about the promise of the Holy Spirit...which, may I add, he does NOT reference as his own spirit, but talks of as it's own, separate person, which the Spirit is.



Yes, Jesus is the Word of God. But his is not the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, -John 14:16

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. -John 14:26

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. -John 15:26

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7


All of these verses make it clear that Jesus is talking about another person, a 'he', who comes only after Jesus has left, and he will magnify Jesus in our lives. This is another person, not Jesus. Unless Jesus has a personality disorder.

..."god"...is a general term to describe "some" created thing...In short, anything can be "a god" to anyone. (Men, spirits, statues, money, sports, moon, etc.)

Thee God, I refer to is; Thee Lord God Almighty, everlasting without beginning or ending, Not created, but Thee Holy and Pure Creator.

Everthing "OF" God, IS He, Himself.
Everthing pertaining to Gods Creations, that become "changed", "MADE" changed, IS expressly BY and OF God, Given the "thing".

What God "sends" forth OUT FROM HIM, IS Him.

Where Gods "sends" "IT" (Himself) TO, is of His Choosing, at His pleasure.

What God "calls" what He sends forth out from Him, is of His Choosing, at His pleasure.

That which Gods "sends" forth out from Him,
"Appears / looks like", is of His Choosing, at His pleasure.

Gods..."APPEARENCE" is limitedly TOLD to men, While, mortal men, can not with their human eyes SEE Him, or with their human ears, Hear Him....precisely because human men have been MADE corrupt, even from their own natural birth (manifestation).

Gods "SENDS" His Life out from Him.
Gods 'SENDS" His Word out from Him.
God "SENDS" His Spirit out from Him.

God "SENDS" His Love, His strong dislike, (which is hate), His wrath, His joy, His Comfort, His Blessing, His Rewards, His Punishments, His Knowledge, His Wisdom, His Understanding, His Plan, His Directions, His Kindness, His objections, His likes, and on and on......His own Emotions...

(And MEN call these things, human traits, "humanity". As if, God had to "change" and become a HUMAN, to Himself experience such things, that He Himself has and has Created within men.)

God does not CHANGE.

He does NOT BECOME a HUMAN, to appear in the FASHION "AS" a Human.

Nor will a HUMAN, BECOME God, to be MADE to appear in the Fashion "AS" God.

The intent of God, is that men shall FREELY choose to Believe IN Him, and choose to have Him, "MAKE" them, "changed", in a Fashion, according to His Way, that is Pleasing and Acceptable TO God.

Every GOOD thing that God SENDS to manKIND, IS NOT beneficial TO an Individual man....UNTIL the individual man....is freely willing to ACCEPT what God SENDS.

To your point..."another" comforter.

Jesus, the baby, the man, the Son, the Lord, the Teacher, the Rabbi, the God with us, the comforter, the advocate, the intercessory, the Christ, on and on as He is "called"...
The Word of God....IS God.

Jesus came among men to be SEEN, of men.
Men can SEE, men, and Jesus came among men, in the BODY, God PREPARED.

Earthly men saw Him Bodily, in the Body God Prepared, and gave men Confort, for all kinds of things that ailed men. Then men Saw Him no more.

Thereafter, those same men, received Gods Comfort in a different fashion. Via God giving them something they could not see, bodily or otherwise. Something OF God given men "internally"....Gods Spirit, to Comfort men, for all kinds of things that ail men.

Same ONE God,
First gave those men Himself, His Word, in the likeness AS a man, (a flesh body, that looked like them), that SPOKE Gods Word for the ears of those human men to hear.

Secondly gave those men Himself, His Spirit, Unseen, Physically unfelt, yet with mans gift of emotions (in the likeness of God), Gods gift of His Spirit "within" a man, IS experienced by the man, though his own Emotions.

So...Was the comforter given those men...another comforter? Yes...
First given Gods Comforting Word....
Secondly given Gods Comforting Spirit...
(And to note, those men Given the Word of God and Given the Spirit of God "are" one Gift added TO another.....not one gift given "instead" (or to cancel out ) of another. )

Separate Gifts that come forth out From ONE God, Who is Life, Power, Word, Comfort, Power....etc.

It appears complicated, separating..... but I could equally give you Examples, that apply TO ONE MAN, that is the same likeness that APPLIES to Thee One God.

On this forum, your word represents YOU.
You have Named your word on this forum...
Naomi25. But yet, most people have umpteen different names and titles they are called, by Particular people, (not so called by all people). And yet your word is not SEPARATE from you, it does a particular thing. As does your muscles, your mind, your vascular system, organs, heart, soul, spirit, all have specific things that apply to those things they "do", posessively called "I, mine, me, his, hers, yours, etc.

God is no more Separated from Himself, and that which IS personally He.....then man is separated from hisself, and that which IS personally he.

(Regardless of what He is called.)

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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Jesus did continue speaking, but he does not promise to come IN THE SPIRIT, he promises he will come again.

In short.

"EVERY" connection, teaching, speaking, communication, interaction;

BETWEEN THEE Holy and Pure God and Corrupt manKIND;

IS: INDIRECT. By and through a Buffer, a cover, a Veil, an Advocate, an Intercessory...

And THAT Buffer, Veil, Advocate, Intercessory, SHALL "REMAIN" in effect.....UNTIL such time A MAN IS "changed" and MADE "holy and pure" and Acceptable to BE, STAND, HEAR, SEE, Thee Lord God Almighty, As HE IS.

(And the being, standing, hearing, seeing, is given a willing man, in "stages").

Individual men KNOW, what stage personally applies to themselves, BY what they have personally done and God Himself has accomplished IN them.

Jesus FULFILLS, Gods Promises.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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Yes, Jesus is the Word of God. But his is not the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Gods Spirit IS part of the WHOLE of God. Gods Spirit IS Power. His Power IS His LIGHT, IS His STRENGTH, IS His CONSUMING FIRE, Thee ALL MIGHT of God; IS Thee Christ;
who IS Jesus.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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All of these verses make it clear that Jesus is talking about another person, a 'he', who comes only after Jesus has left, and he will magnify Jesus in our lives. This is another person, not Jesus. Unless Jesus has a personality disorder.

...Person...person in its most basic understanding applies to earthly human man-KIND of created thing.

God "communicating" with manKIND, sent forth a ...

BODY, prepared of God
A BODY THAT, was prepared in the IMAGE, AS a representation of a Human man's Look.
A BODY THAT, is EXPRESSLY, prepared to Demonstrate and Communicate TO Man-KIND.

And YET, IS THEE Power that Upholds, IS THEE brightness of Gods Glory.

God is NOT Human, NOT created, and NOT out OF the Earth.

God is WHOLLY ONE GOD, yet gives men things out from Him, in increments, bit by bit, in a fashion, and manner, according to Gods pleasure, according to to WHEN a man is ABLE and WILLING to receive such things....as God has prepared the man TO receive such things.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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Let me ask you a question. We know when Christ was raised from the dead

It was Jesus, presented in a BODY prepared of God.
It was THAT PURE BODY, given for the Purpose, to DIE, "paying our price for sin, of our CORRUPT BODY'S".
And His pure BLOOD, given for the Purpose, of Forgiveness.

Our Corrupt bodies, Our Blood (ie the life of our bodies,)is Still required of God, TO DIE, because they ARE corrupt.

Something CORRUPT, is not sufficient to PAY for something that is PURE.

Jesus' BODY, is Gods "offering" to us, FOR Benefit, TO accept or not.

Jesus' BODY, is ALSO a precise EXAMPLE, FOR mankind, To oberve, To hear, To experience, To write about, To testify thereof, To speak about, To spread their experiences, To believe, and To spread His words, among OTHER men.....that they may also believe.

AND also, accept His Offering, or not.

that he had a new, spiritual body...

An example for us....for what He taught, Woud also Apply to mankind, IF they trust to believe in Him and Give Him the Authority to MAKE us like Him.

that which we hope to attain on our own resurrections. The firstfruits. It had certain "far out" aspects to it...teleportation appearing to be one of them! But, it was undoubtably a physical body.

Ofcourse it was "physical".
He came in MANS "likeness". Mankind is "physical".

Our becoming "MADE" "changed", does not "change" us into a "spriit". A man accepting what God CAN MAKE us become...."makes" us HAVE A NEW SPIRIT, not become A SPIRIT.

So, my question is this: where in scripture does it give us leave to think that Christ has 'done away with' that body?

What I have learned, is AS LONG as there ARE living mortal men, The BODY of Jesus, is necessary, when it is necessary for mortal men to SEE Him....
(Teaching of men, face to face, Rising up of mortal bodies, sentencing of mortal bodies, 1,000 yr reign, etc.)
And Appears, after all who are going to, DO become immortal, THEY shall be able to SEE Him, AS HE IS, which personally I don't think, AS HE IS, is BODILY....but rather Spirit.

Because there seems to be a correlation between him having that body and being present on earth, and the "helper" being sent.

Earth was created FOR;
To bring forth mankind out of the earth.
And FOR:
Earth to BE mankinds habitat.

God has numerous times, APPEARED to mankind, IN A FASHION, a man could comprehend. Several times He appeared AS A MAN.

Men make their own appearences....in a fashion, as they determine,, others can immediately comprehend their intent.
( Like if you appeared at a funeral; in a flashy hot pink outfit, low cut top and mini skirt and thigh high boots, a clown suit and wig and makeup, or a plain black dress or slacks....
Your intent would be revealed ) eh?

You seem to assume

I assume nothing. Well, dealing with men, I assume, because I already know, they do not know ALL things.
But concerning Spiritual things, assuming is guessing, and I am of the belief, God desires us to KNOW, His Truth, and His Understanding, and that is what I am always after.
(That was what was meant, by David being after Gods own Heart....Gods Truth and Gods Understanding. David a man, God Himself MADE a KING, to be seated IN AN everlasting throne.....I find as an Excellent example, and extremely Acceptable of God).
And BTW a promise made to ALL men, WHO are after and obtain, Gods Truth and Gods Understanding, that they also shall Sit with the Lord God, in His everlasting throne.

that as soon as Christ

Remembering Jesus CAME to Earth, as a MAN, "without His Power". While on Earth, bit by bit, His POWER is comes unto Him, and is revealed through His Works and Miracles.
Also it is by Gods POWER, that a man realizes Jesus IS THEE Christ. Scripture tells us Christ IS the Power of God.

ascends back to heaven then

Yes, Bodily, from whence "HIS" body came, and with POWER, from whence HIS power came....Returns to Heaven.

wham, bam' everything changes and now he can head on back down to earth and be 'in' his followers because all he needed was a breath of heaven air, or something. That was all he meant when he said that the Spirit couldn't come until he left.

This is just silly. What "appears"....returns from whence it came.
Once Jesus' BODY and Power departed the earth.....As men trust to Believe in Jesus (as those men did), as men trust to Believe Jesus is the Christ (as those men did), as men trust to Believe Jesus died and was risen up by Gods Spiritual Power, (as those men did)....
Men receive Gods Spirit (as those men did).

Jesus' BODY was offered, thereafter, one who accepts His bodily offering, His "indwelling" Spirit is given.
The scriptures reveal, His Body and His "indwelling" Spirit were not offered or given at the SAME TIME.

Everything is According to Gods Design, Order, Way....not ours.

God Bless,
Taken
 

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Actually the battle continues through verse 5.

But let me quote a few passages on how the battle will end:

"The wrath of the Lord is upon all nations, and His anger upon the number of them, to destroy them and give them up to slaughter. And their slain shall be cast forth, and the stench of their corpses shall arise, and the mountains shall be made wet with their blood. And all the powers of the heavens shall melt, and the sky shall be rolled up like a scroll… My sword has been made drunk in heaven. Behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and with judgment upon a people doomed to destruction… for the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in Idumea… and the land shall be soaked with blood, and shall be filled with their fat (i.e. dead flesh). For it is the Day of the Lord's judgment, and the year of the recompense of Zion in judgment. (Isaiah 34:2-8 LXX)

"Who is this who comes from Edom, with garments dyed from Bozrah? He who is glorious in His apparel, travelling in the greatness of His strength?"
"I who speak in righteousness, Mighty to save."
"Why are You red in Your apparel, and Your garments like he who treads in the wine vat?"
"I have trodden the winepress alone… I will tread them in My anger, and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments, and I will stain all My raiment. For the Day of vengeance is in My heart, and the year of My redeemed has come." (Isaiah 63:1–4)

My point is this: Unless the Lord is going to call a "Time out!" so the Marriage Supper can take place, you have it following directly on the heals of a extremely gruesome series of events, where millions upon millions of men die and their corpses raise such a stench near Israel's southern border that they have to be buried in a mass grave as a result, and their blood drained from them by means of trampling, i.e. by the angels of God. The Lord Himself appears to also take some form of active role in this.

Isn't it is a strange context in which to be marrying?
Both your quotes apply to the Sixth Seal event, years before the Return.
Proved by them being about the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath and how the sky is rolled up like a scroll. Revelation 6:14

When Jesus Returns, on the Great Day of the Lord Almighty, Revelation 16:14, He simply disposes of the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.
 

Hidden In Him

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Both your quotes apply to the Sixth Seal event, years before the Return.
Proved by them being about the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath and how the sky is rolled up like a scroll. Revelation 6:14

When Jesus Returns, on the Great Day of the Lord Almighty, Revelation 16:14, He simply disposes of the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

No, Keraz. The 6th seal only stipulates that this is when the sun will become darkened and the moon will be turned to blood and the stars will roll up as a scroll. Nothing is said about the destruction of the wicked yet except that these events signal it is about to happen, and that the "the great day of His wrath has come."

How do we know? Because passages like Joel 3:14 and Jeremiah 25:30-33 equate all of these events together, with the soldiers of the nations being gathered in the valley of Megiddo when the sun is turned to darkness. And when they are gathered, then will the voice of the Lord thunder from Heaven to destroy the wicked at His return:

Huge numbers of soldiers are gathered in the valley where the Lord will hand down his sentence. The Day of the Lord is near in that valley. The sun and moon will become dark. The stars will not give their light anymore. The Lord will roar like a lion from Jerusalem. His voice will sound like thunder from Zion. The earth and the heavens will tremble. But the Lord will keep the people of Israel safe. He will be a place of safety for them. (Joel 3:14-16)

Not only that, but Jeremiah 26:33 states that it will not just be the millions of soldiers whose corpses are everywhere, but the slain of the Lord will cover the entire planet, and NOT be buried, which means the stench of rotting corpses will cover the whole planet at His return.

Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them, "The Lord shall roar from on High, and utter His voice from His holy habitation; He shall mightily roar upon His habitation; He shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord... And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground." (Jeremiah 25:30–33)

As I've stated, you make one error and it compounds itself into further errors. I know sorting out end-times prophecies is complex, but you are twisting things around in such a way that several passages become contradictory.
 
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Keraz

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Conflating the Sixth Seal with Armageddon, is a very obvious error. They have nothing in common, except many will die in both.
The Sixth Seal is the next prophesied event to happen. It will be a worldwide disaster, but Armageddon is just in the Megiddo valley of Israel.
So saying that I'm wrong, is kind of silly of you.
 

Taken

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There's a fair bit of supposition in this paragraph. Jesus "looked like" earthly men? Most theologians would agree that's because he was fully man. Sinful? No, but fully man none the less.

I do not consider what "theologians, philosophers, preachers", etc., SAY, as a consideration of WHAT I believe.

So to tell me, so-n-so said, is rather irrelevant to me.

Yes, Jesus "LOOKED LIKE" earthly men.
(Probably why when an earthly man LOOKED at Jesus, they called Him A MAN).

Why did Jesus need to TAKE THAT BODY UPON HIMSELF? Already said, WHY.

HOW ?

Phil 2:7
...WHO (Jesus) TOOK UPON HIMSELF,
The FORM (body) of a SERVANT (who are servants of God? angels and earthly men)

WHAT was Jesus thereafter SEEN AS?

Phil 2:9
...(JESUS)....thereafter being found (seen by manKIND) in the fashion...
"AS A MAN".

WHAT IS JESUS....."UNDER THAT FORM HE TOOK UPON HIMSELF" ?

Phil 2:8
WHAT "being" ? (Jesus)... BEING IN THE FORM of God. WHAT FORM? God. WHAT BEING? God.

Further, We know, since the beginning of earthly manKIND....mankind, has desired to SEE God....THAT is a mans dilemma, TO BELIEVE what he can not SEE. That is a mans own dilemma, and a teachers (dilemma) of Gods Word to others men.

Men asked TO SEE God....After 4,000 years of men Hearing, but wanting to SEE God....God provided, in a FASHION pleasing to God, for men to SEE God.

Could a man SEE God and LIVE? No
Thus the barrier, cover, veil, BODY God prepared.

Do not be deceived, what was Beneath, that prepared Body. It is precisely what a converted and imperishable and glorified man SHALL one day See.

1 John 3:2
....we shall see him AS HE IS...

Zech 14:9
....in that day shall there be ONE LORD, and his name ONE.

And was Jesus' body glorified in the clouds?

Jesus' (our Example) body was raised up...imperishable...spiritual...changed.

So also will a mans body, who is Converted.
Shall rise up imperishable...spiritual...changed....glorified.

Acts doesn't say so.
Acts is not the entent of knowledge.

He already had his new body, does any scripture say that there is any extra process needed?

I can only give you snippets, a brief. Scripture study is very indept...every step of the Order, covering every step of the whole of man and God Himself.

Jesus prayed God, for Glory Jesus had with God from the beginning, just before they came to take Him, to try Him, and Kill Him.

I know of no time, God experienced a Physical Pain, pryor to what was about to happen. While Jesus experienced the forth coming pain....it was also a lesson to mankind...that with Gods Power a man CAN endure the unfathomable. Gods Glory IS His Light, Light IS His Power.

He was the firstfruits, we come after...what about for us?

Do you know all things? Understand all things? Seen all of Gods creations? Experienced life without heartache, pain, sorrow, being mad, without fear, without evil all around you.....there is endless much more for us.

Yes, the bible says that we will recieve them at the time of Rapture, at our Lords return, but it doesn't specifically say it is the clouds that make the process complete.

There is the Sound that calls, the graves opening, the rising out of the graves, the rising up through the air, reaching the clouds, receiving ones rewards, (living soul, quickened spirit), bodies being glorified, changed, meeting the Lord in the clouds, as they have been prepared..as a bride for their groom..All occuring instantly, quick...

That's just speculation on your part.

That may be your opinion. However it is a False accusation to claim that definitively.
You are welcome to reveal scripture that is in opposition to what I have said.

And as for the Rapture?

What about it?

There is just as much evidence to say that once that event has happened, Christ will continue downwards to claim the Earth and make it all new,

Of course there is that information....However there are numerous things that occur after the Rapture and Before Jesus returns to the Earth.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Naomi25

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you will see Him come down the same way you saw him go up i guess Naomi

yikes?

Ha! Would it be better to know that there is a 't' missing in that sentence?? 'This' is not the Spirit of God...not 'his is not the Spirit of God'. My stupid keyboard is quite dodgy and it likes missing keys sometimes!
Anyway...my point was, that while, in a real way Jesus is, of course, the spirit of God, as they are all one, that he is not "The Holy Spirit"...THE Spirit of God.
Hope that clears that up....the 'yikes' part anyway!
 
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