When we see things BEGIN to happen -Rapture

[dad]

The descriptions of the Return do not say Jesus will carry out a genera slaughter. He just disposes of the armies of the Anti-Christ by the Sword of His Word.

It is at the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, where the Lord gets His blood splashed garments. Isaiah 63:1-6
at least 7 + years before He Returns.

Actually we are told when a few verses before that.

Isaiah 62:11
The Lord has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: "Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.'"

Lest there be any doubt, the matter is dealt with succinctly in Isa 34.

Isaiah 34:2
The Lord is angry with all nations; his wrath is on all their armies. He will totally destroy them, he will give them over to slaughter.
Isaiah 34:3
Their slain will be thrown out, their dead bodies will stink; the mountains will be soaked with their blood.
Isaiah 34:4
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.
Isaiah 34:5
My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens; see, it descends in judgment on Edom, the people I have totally destroyed.
Isaiah 34:6
The sword of the Lord is bathed in blood, it is covered with fat— the blood of lambs and goats, fat from the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
Isaiah 34:7
And the wild oxen will fall with them, the bull calves and the great bulls. Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat.
Isaiah 34:8
For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.

So in Isa 63 we this

Isaiah 63:1
Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.


That is the day of vengeance when He comes down and slaughters the wicked starting in the area of the mid east mentioned here, when He saves His people. There is no remote possibility that is several years before He comes.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yet the bible clearly lists the seals as the wrath of God. You do realize they are opened in the end?



No doubt that sort will be tested in those days along with the rest of the world! The ones who believe in Jesus will be caught up to meet Him when we start to see or begin to see the signs mentioned.



The test is accepting or rejecting Jesus. There will be multitudes that come to Jesus after we are gone.

The first five seals are the 7 year Great Tribulation, and believe me, you will want those seven years if you are not yet sinless. Are you sinless, or is that too personal a question. If not, you need to be. It is the sixth seal that starts the wrath.

 

[dad]

Not... really. You are missing what Lord Jesus taught about the Signs of the end He gave His servants.


Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
KJV

Lord Jesus said there when we hear of wars and rumors of wars, don't worry, because what? He said, "but the end is not yet". What did He mean by that? Simple. It means the very end, just prior to His future return, there won't be any wars or rumors of war, but a time of world peace.

Let's not pick out a verse or two and try to limit all signs to that. In those verses He Himself pointed out that was not the signs in question. However look at the whole passage.

I will bold the signs I think could apply to the signs that begin to happen when our redemption is at the gates.

Luke 21:7
And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Luke 21:9
But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Luke 21:10
Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luke 21:11
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luke 21:12
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luke 21:13
And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luke 21:14
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luke 21:15
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luke 21:16
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luke 21:17
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luke 21:18
But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luke 21:19
In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luke 21:22
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luke 21:23
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


So I bolded about 7 signs. He also mentions things before and after, such as the time when the abomination is set up.
I don't know that all have happened yet. That is not the issue. For example I don't really see signs in the heavens yet. We are starting to see families reporting on each other to a high degree these days. I would think that we had a taste of that in Germany and other places in history. With the world wide nature of the pandemic lately, it seems safe to say we have never seen it on this global scale. Same idea with pestilences. This pestilence has been global, not just a country in Africa or etc. Earthquakes we have always had, and it seems fair to say that there have been a lot in different places globally in these times as well. That doesn't mean that sign is fulfilled, of course there are more and bigger ones to come in that Tribulation. The issue is whether we can see that we have begun to see some of these signs or not. Not all. Some.

On a sidenote here I think it is interesting that wars were not mentioned. Could it be that the Rapture takes place just before a time of intense war, since it was not listed?

This is why Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 revealed that when the deceived begin to say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. And Paul began that revelation talking about the time of the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future return to destroy the wicked.

No doubt that also is a part of the events in the end. That would not matter to this conversation though. We do not see that worldwide time of false peace before the signs begin to happen! There will still be plenty of destruction after the Rapture etc.

That actual START... of the time of "great tribulation" is with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" by the coming pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem, per Matthew 24:15-21.

Correct. That is the last half of the Tribulation. (if you prefer to call it something else like the last seven years, fine)

So what we are in today is the "beginning of sorrows" time Jesus forewarned of. It is a time of wars, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes.

The verse I cited is about our redemption. The time when He is on the way here almost, when we are to look up because it is really here now.

This time is to serve as a huge contrast vs. when the pseudo-Christ is setup and claims to be God, and the deceived will be glad because they will believe he is God come to fix all the world's problems, make craft prosper, etc. The Book of Daniel also says he will destroy many using 'peace', so there's another Scripture proof of this matter (Daniel 8:25).

We have been in latter times since the time Jesus was here. Some of the things in Luke 21 mentioned that it was not yet the time and to not be afraid.
Luke 21:9
But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

So the wars and commotions were not a sign of the very end. (that does not mean there will not also be war in the end of course)

For our redemption, or what we call the Rapture, apparently we would not expect war to happen first as some sign. I did not list that.

 

[dad]

The first five seals are the 7 year Great Tribulation,

We see this in the sixth seal
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus returns after the Tribulation. People will not wonder who will stand when He returns! He will slaughter all the wicked.

and believe me, you will want those seven years if you are not yet sinless.

Sinless? No idea what you are talking about.

Are you sinless, or is that too personal a question. If not, you need to be. It is the sixth seal that starts the wrath.

I am forgiven. He washed our sins in His blood. As far as the east is from the west so far has he removed our transgression from us. I have never met a sinless person in my life. Have you? Nor have I met anyone that did not need constant forgiveness from sins/debts/trespasses. Nor have I met anyone who had attained yet.

Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Not... really. You are missing what Lord Jesus taught about the Signs of the end He gave His servants.


Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
KJV

Lord Jesus said there when we hear of wars and rumors of wars, don't worry, because what? He said, "but the end is not yet".

This is how people get twisted all up and conflated on the scriptures and timing in the bible guys.

When will THESE THINGS BE? That was the disciples first question, well, what things?

The temples destruction Jesus had just told them about. So, Jesus has to tell them about this in a way where they understand (Disciples) without a doubt what is going on because if they misread the signs and come back in 70 AD expecting Jesus has come again, they would have no doubt have all been killed (including John who had a book of Revelation to write), so Jesus clues them in with 100 percent accuracy as to when the end will come, no one with half a brain can miss Jesus' timing instructions. He meant it that way, he did not want his Disciples to die until it was their time, they had a Gospel to carry unto the world.

So, what is this unmistakable point Jesus made? In verse 14 we are told when THE END will come, when the Gospel is preached unto the whole world, only then will THE END (70th week) come, not until that has happened can Jesus return, so the Disciples had a foolproof understanding which Jesus gave unto them, they knew that until China, India and the far north Scythians (Russians) were given the Gospel, Jesus could not be returning.

So, knowing this lets separate Jesus' teaching in Matt. 24 brothers into eras, we know them in various ways, by the number of false christs, false prophets and THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet because each mention is in a different era. 70 AD.......Church Age.......70th week troubles.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(70 AD): see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

In modern English, Jesus had just told HIS DISCIPLES (hence YE in verse 6) about the temples destruction, they say when will THESE THINGS BE (Temples Destruction) and only after that do they ask two questions about his second coming an the end of the age. So, we get the temples destruction answered first, we just have to divide the word properly to understand this.

Back to MODERN English: Jesus tells them, do not let anyone fool you into thinking I have come again, many will come in my name (as the Messiah) in 67-70 AD not 2000 years later, verse 6 says see that YE be not troubled for a reason, Jesus was giving his disciples a powerful instruction on WHAT NOT TO DO, in order to survive the confusion of 70 AD. He knew (John 5:43) that the Pharisees would put forth messianic figures to try and save Israel from Rome, whom they correctly identified as the fourth beast. That is what he foretold them in John 5:43, that they would not accept him who came from God the Father but would accept another who came in his OWN NAME later on !! So, now we know what the false christs of verse 5 means !! The 70 AD period of time.

Then he says YE will hear of wars and rumors of wars (67-70 AD) BUT...don't be troubled, these shall all come to pass, but THE END (70th week and Jesus Coming at the end of the 70th week) is by an by or later on. In verse 14 we are told what brings forth THAT END Jesus was speaking about, he says when the whole world has the gospel preached unto it, then and only then will THE END (70th week and the Second Coming) happen !! Thus, the disciples had a Master Teacher (SMILE) thus they were never confused, they knew that only when they put forth the gospel until all the world would Jesus return so they got busy preaching !! Amen. ONLY THEN does Jesus go into the Church Age Period from verses 7 -14, notice WARS here also. Its not the 70 AD wars however, this is a grander scale.

Matthew 24:7-14

Wars via kingdoms and ethos/factions/races. Pestilence (Black Plague/COVID 19) Earthquakes and Famines, and it will be like BIRTHPANGS and get more and more frequent all the way up unto the 70th week is ready to be birthed after verse 14, as we se in verse 15, the AoD which happens exactly 1290 days before Jesus Second Coming. This is thus THE END Jesus was speaking of, the Birth Pangs lead into the 70th week. In verses 9-11 Jesus forewarned his disciple that they would ALL DIE specifically so they would not become another Judas, people get this wrong, SO WRONG they think its the very end times, it not, he also tells them about false prophets or the people who will falsely accuse them to the Roman authorities and have them killed, and it also notes the fact that during the whole church age we will have many, may false teachers and false preachers saying they are of God. See David Koresh, Jim Jones of Jonestown fame, Joseph Smith etc. etc. But unto his disciples mostly Jesus was giving them hope, do not expect to be lived, expect to be hated as I was, thus when their time came thy were ready, and honored to die living IN FAITH:

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So, Jesus is like, hey all of you think you are strong, let me tell you something, they are going to afflict and kill you just like they did me, people will falsely accuse you because they are OFFENDED, and they were offended because they refused to worship the local gods and brought forth Jesus unto the masses, and was thus hated by these false prophet types. Thus Jesus says that you MUST ENDURE UNTIL THE END [of ones lifespan]. This is why one disciple asked about John not having to die via Martyred death, and Jesus says basically, let me worry about that. Thus we are given the False prophet/false teacher/false preacher era here. (Church Age)

Verses 15-31 are the 70th week END Jesus was forewarning them about via their other two questions. In verse 24 Jesus mentions THE Anti-Christ and THE False Prophet who actually preform miracles during the 70th week tribulation period. (the LAST ERA).

So, that is why Jesus mentions false christs in verse 5, false prophets in verse 11 and THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet in verse 24, its three different eras. 70 AD....Church Age....70th week.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

We see this in the sixth seal
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Jesus returns after the Tribulation. People will not wonder who will stand when He returns! He will slaughter all the wicked.


Sinless? No idea what you are talking about.
I am forgiven. He washed our sins in His blood. As far as the east is from the west so far has he removed our transgression from us. I have never met a sinless person in my life. Have you? Nor have I met anyone that did not need constant forgiveness from sins/debts/trespasses. Nor have I met anyone who had attained yet.

Philippians 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Yes, Jesus returns after the fifth seal - all those Christians who are martyred

 

[Randy Kluth]

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This verse says when we start or begin to see these things, that is when we look up for our redemption. That does seem to mean the Rapture, because if the 'things' just started there is a lot of things yet to happen! Yet our redemption is at the doors here.
Today we do see these things start to happen. The nations that will attack Israel are in line, the worldwide credit system of the mark is beginning to be set up. Earthquakes, pestilences, the waves of people all over the world roaring, fear etc. But even if there are some who deny we are starting to see these things, the fact remains that it is when we begin to see them that OUR redemption draws very near.

Right, this is in the same vein as "Set your mind on things above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God, over all authority" (paraphrased). It is a call to look to God, spiritually, and not a call to try to anticipate when Christ will pop through the clouds. (Think whale watching--I've done this, and there is no guarantee you'll know when a whale will jump out of the water--it's a big guess)

After all, there is no way you could anticipate someone doing that, nor would it be of any value to you of all. The only value would be in making moral preparation in anticipation of that event.

Jesus explicitly described how we are to prepare for that event, and therefore explained, as well, what "looking up" meant. It was in treating your employees properly, in treating your families, friends, and even enemies properly. In other words, it was by spiritual and moral preparation, so as to not be judged when he comes.

So, "looking up" is both an anticipation of an event and a moral preparation. But it is clearly not trying to anticipate *when* the event will happen, since it is both impossible to do this and lacks the ability to prepare for it.

For this reason I'm against "Imminency Teaching," and Pretribulation Rapture Teaching. These teachings focus on trying to be prepared by fixing on an imminent event, an event which by its very nature happens when it is too late to prepare.

But if we're talking about fixing our eyes on the *fact* of Jesus soon coming, with this we can all agree. This alone causes us to remain in a state of moral preparation. I just don't like the anxiety associate with thinking this is an "any moment" affair. We were never supposed to be anxious, as if he could come at any moment. Clearly, we are told that events have to happen first, leading up to that event. Nations have to turn apostate from Christianity before judgment against these nations can take place.

Rather, we should take note that we not participate in this apostasy as we see it taking place. "Watching" has to do with being on guard against compromising with the spirit of defection from Christianity. And it is already in the world. We are already in the last days. This is not something to be anxious about. But it definitely something we need to mind today!

Finally, I would reassert what I often feel I have to say. The Olivet Discourse, though mentioning the 2nd Coming, was focused primarily on Israel and on its future NT history. Israel would suffer a "great tribulation," an exile into all the world, due to their sin of rejecting their Messiah. The Jews would persecute Christians, and suffer a long age of judgment for it--the longest punishment in their history.

This is what Jesus was talking about, which would start in 70 AD with the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This was all foretold in Daniel chapter 9. I know many futurists disagree with this, wanting everything to be about the endtimes. But clearly, some things in prophecy was fulfilled in the past, and some things have yet to be fulfilled in the future. We need to know the difference in this case, as I see it.

 

[dad]

Yes, Jesus returns after the fifth seal - all those Christians who are martyred

In the sixth seal, as pointed out not all the wicked are yet slaughtered. They hide in mountains etc. When He returns He metes out swift justice. So you can't claim the 6th seal is in the Trib.

 

[Keraz]

In the sixth seal, as pointed out not all the wicked are yet slaughtered. They hide in mountains etc. When He returns He metes out swift justice. So you can't claim the 6th seal is in the Trib.

Yes, The Sixth Seal is not part of the GT. It happens before that. That forthcoming devastation will be focused on the Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 6:11-13
Most of the ungodly people in the rest of the world, will survive by keeping under cover, as we are told to do. Isaiah 26:20-21

When Jesus Returns, He does not destroy anything other than the armies of Satan. By the Sword of His Word.
All the events yet to happen; the Sixth Seal, the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, the 7th Bowl is Armageddon, will be over before Jesus appears in glory and gathers His faithful people to go with Him into the Millennium of peace and prosperity. Matthew 24:29-31

 

[dad]

Right, this is in the same vein as "Set your mind on things above, where Christ is seated on the right hand of God, over all authority" (paraphrased). It is a call to look to God, spiritually, and not a call to try to anticipate when Christ will pop through the clouds. (Think whale watching--I've done this, and there is no guarantee you'll know when a whale will jump out of the water--it's a big guess)

We should anticipate our redemption when we start to see the signs for it is here suddenly. It could not be in the same vein as business as usual through the ages! That is why Jesus mentions it. When we start to see the signs boom, watch out it is time to look up. When we begin to see some signs do you think that will be a time to go see a financial planner, or horde food etc? No, Jesus says look up for it is near then. The time to look down and on things of the world will be over. That will be the time when believers can finally just look up. There is no need to ignorantly look over the sea hoping a whale pops up then! He told us that the redemption (the pop up) is here almost. That means that when all the signs are seen and over, we are already long redeemed. All we need is the start of some of the signs happening.

Jesus explicitly described how we are to prepare for that event, and therefore explained, as well, what "looking up" meant. It was in treating your employees properly, in treating your families, friends, and even enemies properly. In other words, it was by spiritual and moral preparation, so as to not be judged when he comes.

Chapter and verse?
Christians always were to look upward that is true. However there comes the time when signs begin to happen that it is really time to actually look up, it's all over now for us here on earth. We are going up in the air. Bye bye world. Yet at that time the world will still be here, and the rest of the signs happening down there! Likewise, when the believing Jews in Jerusalem one day see that abomination set up, they are not supposed to sit there looking up, treating employees fairly or etc etc! They will need to run for their lives. It is not business as usual any more.

So, "looking up" is both an anticipation of an event and a moral preparation. But it is clearly not trying to anticipate *when* the event will happen, since it is both impossible to do this and lacks the ability to prepare for it.

Jesus just told us when our redemption was arriving! When we start to see the things happen. That is when we need to look up, for the train is at the station. No one knows the day. No one ever did know the day. People never even know the season! But when believers begin to see the signs spoken about, then they will know that it is almost here literally.

For this reason I'm against "Imminency Teaching," and Pretribulation Rapture Teaching. These teachings focus on trying to be prepared by fixing on an imminent event, an event which by its very nature happens when it is too late to prepare.

Who can prepare for being caught up into the air and given immortal bodies and living with Jesus forever? All we can do is try to be ready. Watch and pray. But for the folks there when the signs START to happen, they can know it is time!

But if we're talking about fixing our eyes on the *fact* of Jesus soon coming, with this we can all agree. This alone causes us to remain in a state of moral preparation. I just don't like the anxiety associate with thinking this is an "any moment" affair. We were never supposed to be anxious, as if he could come at any moment. Clearly, we are told that events have to happen first, leading up to that event. Nations have to turn apostate from Christianity before judgment against these nations can take place.

Jesus was not talking about that usual state of always being ready and not knowing! He was saying that WHEN they start to see the signs, THEN they KNOW it is time, and can look up for actual redemption very very soon.
So the only issue here is whether we today have begun to see some of the signs or not. If we have, then we can know it is near.

Rather, we should take note that we not participate in this apostasy as we see it taking place. "Watching" has to do with being on guard against compromising with the spirit of defection from Christianity. And it is already in the world. We are already in the last days. This is not something to be anxious about. But it definitely something we need to mind today!

That does not apply to the people who see the abomination set up. They are not to watch, they already saw! They need to run. The people who SEE the signs start to happen can also SEE. Once we have already watched these things begin to happen, we no longer really need to watch for them! What we need to do at that time is smile and look up. We're here, we will say.

Finally, I would reassert what I often feel I have to say. The Olivet Discourse, though mentioning the 2nd Coming, was focused primarily on Israel and on its future NT history. Israel would suffer a "great tribulation," an exile into all the world, due to their sin of rejecting their Messiah. The Jews would persecute Christians, and suffer a long age of judgment for it--the longest punishment in their history.

Yes they will suffer, but it also comes on all the world! After the redemption of the church, God deals with Israel and the rest of the world. That is when all the things written are fulfilled, not just when we start to see some of the things begin to occur!
There is no possibility that you could put the events of the end of the world in history.

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[dad]

Yes, The Sixth Seal is not part of the GT. It happens before that. That forthcoming devastation will be focused on the Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Isaiah 6:11-13
Most of the ungodly people in the rest of the world, will survive by keeping under cover, as we are told to do. Isaiah 26:20-21

Not the wicked. They will not be able to hide.

In case anyone has the slightest doubt, God speaks here-
Amos 9:1 I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.

2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

3 And though they hide themselves in the top of Carmel, I will search and take them out thence; and though they be hid from my sight in the bottom of the sea, thence will I command the serpent, and he shall bite them:

4 And though they go into captivity before their enemies, thence will I command the sword, and it shall slay them: and I will set mine eyes upon them for evil, and not for good.

When Jesus Returns, He does not destroy anything other than the armies of Satan. By the Sword of His Word.

Isaiah 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked

All the events yet to happen; the Sixth Seal, the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, the 7th Bowl is Armageddon, will be over before Jesus appears in glory and gathers His faithful people to go with Him into the Millennium of peace and prosperity. Matthew 24:29-31

He also returns with His saints. Looks like they were gathered before He returned! By the time He returns all the signs are done. Over. When we begin to see some of these signs, OUR redemption is near.

 

[Davy]

Let's not pick out a verse or two and try to limit all signs to that. In those verses He Himself pointed out that was not the signs in question. However look at the whole passage.

I don't have time to read your denial of what Jesus said. Go fish, because you certainly don't care about understanding in His Word with your made up baloney that I was picking out one verse and applying it how I want.

 

[Christ4Me]

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

This verse says when we start or begin to see these things, that is when we look up for our redemption. That does seem to mean the Rapture, because if the 'things' just started there is a lot of things yet to happen! Yet our redemption is at the doors here.
Today we do see these things start to happen. The nations that will attack Israel are in line, the worldwide credit system of the mark is beginning to be set up. Earthquakes, pestilences, the waves of people all over the world roaring, fear etc. But even if there are some who deny we are starting to see these things, the fact remains that it is when we begin to see them that OUR redemption draws very near.

Not to mention the falling away from the faith by those who believe they can receive the holy Spirit again apart from salvation after a sign.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,....

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Such examples of the falling away from the faith are; another baptism with the holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angeley's healing crusade where he announces the Holy spirit falling on a saved believer to cause them to fall backwards, etc.

 

[Davy]

This is how people get twisted all up and conflated on the scriptures and timing in the bible guys.

When will THESE THINGS BE? That was the disciples first question, well, what things?

Just the opposite, it's your heeding men's doctrines that is twisting Christ's Word. I gave the Scripture evidence of what I was saying. You're just throwing out hot air with the above, trying character assassination.

In Matthew 24:3 is where Christ's disciples with Him upon the Mount of Olives specifically asked Him what would be the Sign of His coming, and of the end of the world.

THIS was the disciples' FIRST QUESTION, including the part that you left out....

Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

That means, Christ's disciples well understood Jesus was pointing to the future... on the last day of this world, the day of His coming. THAT... is the context of the question they asked Him!

It also means ANYONE trying to supplant that above meaning there in the actual Scripture is doing the work of a deceiver.

 

[dad]

I don't have time to read your denial of what Jesus said. Go fish, because you certainly don't care about understanding in His Word with your made up baloney that I was picking out one verse and applying it how I want.

He said look up when we start to see these signs. That is not at the end of the Trib! You have been corrected.

 

[dad]

Not to mention the falling away from the faith by those who believe they can receive the holy Spirit again apart from salvation after a sign.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,....

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Such examples of the falling away from the faith are; another baptism with the holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angeley's healing crusade where he announces the Holy spirit falling on a saved believer to cause them to fall backwards, etc.

I agree that is a sign of the end. The thing is it would need to be among the signs Jesus had just spoken about. Now when people fall away they might do things like turn in their families and etc. So it all fits. But I think the thread is specifically about the signs Jesus mentioned here. Then we know for sure that it's time to basically load the plane so to speak, or let school out or whatever. The time will be at hand for the redemption of the church when we start to see the signs!

Is there any sign in the chapter you think we are starting to see?

 

[dad]

Just the opposite, it's your heeding men's doctrines that is twisting Christ's Word. I gave the Scripture evidence of what I was saying. You're just throwing out hot air with the above, trying character assassination.

In Matthew 24:3 is where Christ's disciples with Him upon the Mount of Olives specifically asked Him what would be the Sign of His coming, and of the end of the world.

THIS was the disciples' FIRST QUESTION, including the part that you left out....

Matt 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV

That means, Christ's disciples well understood Jesus was pointing to the future... on the last day of this world, the day of His coming. THAT... is the context of the question they asked Him!

It also means ANYONE trying to supplant that above meaning there in the actual Scripture is doing the work of a deceiver.

The end of the world for us is when we are redeemed in the air to meet Him. The end of the world can mean many things and refers to a time when all things come to an end here, and Jesus returns to rule. The second coming of Jesus with His saints as well as His coming in the air seem to me to be part of what is called the end of the world. How could we leave His redeeming us in the air out?

 

[Christ4Me]

I agree that is a sign of the end. The thing is it would need to be among the signs Jesus had just spoken about. Now when people fall away they might do things like turn in their families and etc. So it all fits. But I think the thread is specifically about the signs Jesus mentioned here. Then we know for sure that it's time to basically load the plane so to speak, or let school out or whatever. The time will be at hand for the redemption of the church when we start to see the signs!

Is there any sign in the chapter you think we are starting to see?

We are called to be always ready with His help and so we may be surprise when the Bridegroom comes like a thief in the night.

Signs may help us to see He is at the door, but we need to pray that we are not ensnared by the cares of this life that we would not want to leave.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[dad]

We are called to be always ready with His help and so we may be surprise when the Bridegroom comes like a thief in the night.

Signs may help us to see He is at the door, but we need to pray that we are not ensnared by the cares of this life that we would not want to leave.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Yes there is always that. However, when the train is in the station and the track number called out, that is the time to get ready to board. There is not a whole lot of time to be a glutton at the station snack bar, or get corked and pass out in the station bar. By that time we either have our ticket to ride or not. Once the train is in the station we are not watching for it anymore. We are looking out at the track and gate. Of course we still do what we can. Maybe we can get a few people at the station saved before we board. Etc But Jesus already called out that now (when we start to see some of those signs) we need to look up, for our Rapture is truly close at hand. Not business as usual. Not something any other generation is history ever experienced. That will be (is?) a whole new ballgame.

 

[Christ4Me]

Yes there is always that. However, when the train is in the station and the track number called out, that is the time to get ready to board. There is not a whole lot of time to be a glutton at the station snack bar, or get corked and pass out in the station bar. By that time we either have our ticket to ride or not. Once the train is in the station we are not watching for it anymore. We are looking out at the track and gate. Of course we still do what we can. Maybe we can get a few people at the station saved before we board. Etc But Jesus already called out that now (when we start to see some of those signs) we need to look up, for our Rapture is truly close at hand. Not business as usual. Not something any other generation is history ever experienced. That will be (is?) a whole new ballgame.

But He still say it will be like a thief in the night and so the looking up part is hopeful expectations, but trusting Him to take us no matter what we are in the middle of doing. Let's trust Him to help us not prefer whatever we are doing to leaving with Him.