When were you created

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

before or at conception


  • Total voters
    7

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,459
31,580
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can we agree that satan was not always evil?Can we also agree that we don't no when he turned?My point is what was going on before he turned?
Really I suggest that we cannot even agree that satan is an entity separate from the old man of flesh of each person. Man did not express his potential for evil until he disobeyed God. When he did perhaps that was the beginning of a satanic something... call it entity if you will or simply call it the adversarial part of our own being... what remains in the old man who has not yet been overcome.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
See my point is that you all think our Father just knows all just because,do understand I know He does ,my point is He doesn't know who will chose Him ,if He did the trails we going through now would be point less.

Please not only read Rev 12 but do so with understanding

Let's go there

Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

The "stars" of heaven are the "sons of God". This "old dragon" caused one third of all of God's creation to follow him. One third of God's children, are all those in their "soul bodies", are also called "angelic souls". No my friend, they do not have wings, but the cherubs do.

What it is saying here, is through Satan's fall in the first earth age, he drew one third of God's children to him. He caused them to fall, and they worshipped him, and believed in him to be their God. That is also his desire also for this age; to cause you and I, the children of God, to worship him.

When we read that "all living came from mother Eve", it means that "Messiah came from, or through mother Eve". He came through the offspring of mothers Eve, and Mary. And it is through the Messiah, Christ is offering eternal life to all mankind. For acceptance of God's gift, all mankind must pass from death to eternal life through the blood of Jesus Christ. So we see this refers to spiritual life, and not necessarily physical life.

Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

The "man child" that was brought forth in the little town of Bethlehem when Jesus the Christ child was born. There are only two events that sit upon this throne, and the only one to do this was a child. Get it? That child is Jesus Christ.

This verse covers two advents [comings]; the first is Christ's birth as a child, and His second coming will be at the seventh trumpet. Then He will come to rule all nations with a rod of iron. Jesus Christ will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Revelation 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

This time is when God's protection is given for the woman "Israel". Following the resurrection, and transposing these days into years, it would bring us up to the early 1800's A.D., when the house of Israel nations became superpowers.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

This event brings us back into heaven. The war is between Satan [the dragon] and his angels, who are fighting against Michael and his angels. Satan will lose.

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

This is the time of the sounding of the fifth trumpet, when Satan and his fallen angels are released upon the earth for the final five months period, spoken of in Revelation 9:5, 10. Satan will spend five months here on earth deceiving all mankind, then go to the pit for the thousand years. After that thousand years, Satan [not his fallen angels] will be released for a short period, then go to perdition [perish]. Once Satan is kicked out of heaven, he will not be allowed to return. Today Satan is in heaven accusing the saints before the Lord.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Really I suggest that we cannot even agree that satan is an entity separate from the old man of flesh of each person. Man did not express his potential for evil until he disobeyed God. When he did perhaps that was the beginning of a satanic something... call it entity if you will or simply call it the adversarial part of our own being... what remains in the old man who has not yet been overcome.

satan led a coup 1/3 of our Father's children followed him at that point God could had killed them all
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Peter gives us all 3 ages

II Peter 3:5 "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:"

Most Christians today, and all of the worldly people today are willingly placing their selves in ignorance on this matter of the creation. Old as it is spoken of here is very ancient, goes far back before the time of Noah and Adam, and even before the creation of the animal world and the earth age as we know it now. Peter is telling you that in the far past, there was a first earth age. Not a different world or planet, but the same planet [earth] existing in a time frame prior to as the earth exist today. The same world, but a different world age or time frame.

II Peter 3:6 "Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:"

That world age or cosmos that existed in that ancient time of the past, and everything that was a part of it was destroyed completely. All life on it was completely done away with. God destroyed it completely and it happened at Satan's overthrow. Many people believe that this flood was the flood of Noah's day, however, the flood of Noah's day did not destroy this world age, life from before that flood carried right over into the dispensation that followed one year later, after the waters had subsided.

Even in the first two verses of Genesis, God declared that there was a first earth age. Lets go there and study what the Word actually says there.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

There are two bodies mentioned in this verse; the heaven and the earth. It simply states a fact, and left the time factor out. This verse not only did not say when, but left it totally to our imagination, as to the eternal span of time, and who the creation took place. In Proverbs 8:22 we read of wisdom speaking through Solomon. Wisdom is God, for all wisdom is of God. "The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His ways, before the works of old." What works of old could this be? It is the old earth age, spoken of in Revelation 12.

Proverbs 8:23 "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was."

This is stating that wisdom was with God, and He possessed me.

Proverbs 8:24 "When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water."

Before there was any need of an abyss, or pit, and the water to fill them, God's wisdom was there.

Proverbs 8:25 "Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:"

Before the earth even took on its present form, with the high mountains and rolling hills, God's wisdom was there. God's wisdom played part in the creation of this earth, and all wisdom comes from God.

Proverbs 8:26 "While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the high part [beginning] of the dust of the world."

God was even there before that first Adam, or speck of dust of the earth was formed.

Proverbs 8:27 "When he prepared the heavens and set a compass (circle) upon the face of the depth:"

Proverbs 8:28 "And when he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:"

Proverbs 8:29 "When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the fountains of the earth:"

In other words what this is saying is that there was land, and oceans, and fields and lakes, and God set His commandment that they should be separated through the "compass" which He set: and we call it "gravity" today. This is the force that separates all water from dry land. When the waves hit the rocks of the shoreline, they resend back into the sea.

God allowed Job to be tested by both Satan and his fellow man, in the book of Job. However, after 37 chapters of man's nonsense, ramblings, and bad advise by those around Job, God spoke to Job.

Job 38:1, 2: "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?"

Job had been tested to the point of losing his entire family, all his property, and he had been inflicted by sores and sickness, yet he did not curse God. He was in a poor frame of mind when God again came to Job. Job had been listening to the trash of men's doctrines for the first thirty seven verses of the book of Job, and now Job was ready to put those ramblings aside of other men, and listen directly to God.

Job 38:3 "Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me."

God told Job to straighten up and be a man, and listen to what He is about to tell Job. Then God spells out in detail how He laid out the foundations of the earth and the heaven, and all matters concerning them. Then in the rest of Job 38 and 39 God reveals the wisdom that we read about in Proverbs 8.

God told Job how He put the universe all together. Our God is infinite in wisdom and power, yet His love for His children is so great that He allowed Himself to be killed as a man, on the cross at Calvary hill. It was this act of love that made it possible for mankind to except Him as their Savior and approach Him as His child.

So there is a complete separation between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Genesis 1:1 is the first creation of heaven and earth, while Genesis 1:2 is the destruction of this earth after the fall or rebellion of Satan.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Who is the Spirit of God? He is the Holy Spirit, and it is God's Spirit that moved upon the face of the waters. In the Hebrew text the translation of the word, "was" as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; we see in the Massorah test it reads "(to become) without form...". The earth was not created a ruin but it became a ruin after the fall of Satan. It is the translators that changed the word from became, to was when they put it into English. This is the same thing that happened in Genesis 2:7 "...and man became a living soul."

The correct translation of the Hebrew from the Massoretic text for these words, "...without form..." is "tohu-va-bohu". So we see that the earth was not created "without form", but it became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Hayah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass."

Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the pure meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime root word for the meaning of the word "void". "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail." This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which is "to ruin".

"Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction has come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. This is one of the problems in translating Hebrew into English, the verb "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".

At the end of the first earth age of Genesis 1:1 that age ceased to exist in its precious form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between the first two verses of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude, as well as in II Peter. We will look into these Scriptures and try to understand the deeper meaning of our Father's Word.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
If you don't understand that there was a first earth age, you will not understand why God would say in Malachi 1:3; "And I hated Esau...". God hated Esau even while he was in his mother's womb. It was in the first earth age that God hated Esau, because of what he was and did in that first earth age. It was what Esau's soul did in that age, that angered God so; and that anger passed on to the embryo of Esau when his soul entered into this earth age. This is also recorded in Romans 9:13.

Genesis 1:2 then verifies that our earth is far older then 6000 years old, when in fact it is probably millions of years old. However, no matter how old this earth is, it is the only place in the universe that mankind, and the animals can exist in the flesh form that we are in and survive. We do not worship the creation, but we worship the creator, our Heavenly Father. God is in control of all of His creation, and He destroyed all forms of life that lived on earth from that first earth age.

Isaiah 45:18 "For thus saith the Lord That created the heavens: God Himself formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else." "

God is speaking and Isaiah is writing what God is saying down, and God is telling us that when He created the earth, it was not in vain. "Vain" as used here is the same Hebrew word that we saw in Genesis 1:2, which was given as "void", or ruin. God created this earth to be lived on, and to be inhabited. Genesis 1:1 told us that God created the earth to be inhabited. "Tohu", the "destruction", was not part of the creation plan, but came after the fall of Satan, when one third of all the souls followed Satan in the first earth age, in verse two.

So when we go back into II Peter 3:6, "Whereby the world that then was, being over-flowed with water, perished." We see that it was that earth age that perish, and all that was part of it. It became void at the rebellion of Satan when he drew one third of the souls with him. This is what Revelation 12:1 - 4 is all about. It was in the first earth age that this took place, and what happened then is a type of what shall happen again in our generation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy and Giuliano

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,741
5,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No beginning and no end, so it is with all who are in Christ in God.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
I am not going to deal with everything in your post, just these. I cannot find anywhere in scripture where it says we were in spiritual bodies for millions of years before God destroyed the earth. The only time he has done that is at the time of Noah and they were certainly not in spiritual bodies.

A third of us did not follow Satan. A third of the angels did.

Ordination is a concept of man. God has nothing at all to do with it.

Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and ALL the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age. We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just two questions,do you think you were created at conception or before?

For me scripture shows we were created (souls)before ,that's why Christ would say I would not have you do anything I didn't

It is an interesting thought. As to when I came into existence, became a living soul, I would say it was at birth. For the soul is the result, product, of the breath of God into the body. (Gen. 2:7) So, until the body was formed, there could be no soul.

In your post #(46) I couldn't believe you stopped short of (Pro. 8:31). "Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men". Perhaps you mentioned it earlier but I didn't see it. The time element here is prior to the creation, yet wisdom, Personified, enjoyed the sons of men. How could that be?

This is my opinion, and it is another one of those, or my, unfathomable thoughts about God. We were always in the mind of God. And God has always existed. In other words, there never was a time when God just decided to create man as a new thought as though He never had it in mind in the first place. And God knew, knows, those who are His. Meaning, there never was a time when you and I were not known of God.

But not only in the mind of God, but were in God, we were of God. Just like my children are 'of me', so we were, are, 'of God'. We were in His loins, so to speak. Just like Levi and Abraham in (Heb. 7:9-10) "...Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father..."

So, my view is that we were forever in the mind and loins of God but did not come into living existence until our birth. But God knew us perfectly and could delight in us even then knowing what He was going to do.

Stranger
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
It is an interesting thought. As to when I came into existence, became a living soul, I would say it was at birth. For the soul is the result, product, of the breath of God into the body. (Gen. 2:7) So, until the body was formed, there could be no soul.

In your post #(46) I couldn't believe you stopped short of (Pro. 8:31). "Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men". Perhaps you mentioned it earlier but I didn't see it. The time element here is prior to the creation, yet wisdom, Personified, enjoyed the sons of men. How could that be?

This is my opinion, and it is another one of those, or my, unfathomable thoughts about God. We were always in the mind of God. And God has always existed. In other words, there never was a time when God just decided to create man as a new thought as though He never had it in mind in the first place. And God knew, knows, those who are His. Meaning, there never was a time when you and I were not known of God.

But not only in the mind of God, but were in God, we were of God. Just like my children are 'of me', so we were, are, 'of God'. We were in His loins, so to speak. Just like Levi and Abraham in (Heb. 7:9-10) "...Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father..."

So, my view is that we were forever in the mind and loins of God but did not come into living existence until our birth. But God knew us perfectly and could delight in us even then knowing what He was going to do.

Stranger

So you feel God knows who will chose Him,if so what's the purpose of being here?In other words why would He create something that He knows will die,ie,go to hell?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giuliano

Stranger

Well-Known Member
Oct 5, 2016
8,826
3,157
113
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you feel God knows who will chose Him,if so what's the purpose of being here?In other words why would He create something that He knows will die,ie,go to hell?

God know those who are His. Who are of Him. They will choose Him because they are of Him. (John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

Why would God create anything at all? Why would God not create it so that there was no devil, and that His creation would enjoy paradise bliss forever and ever without sin and death?

All I can say is, it is the way He has done it. He wants His people to go through this experience of suffering and sin and death, as a growth and maturing process. (Heb. 5:8) "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered." Jesus, The Son, who knew no sin 'learned' obedience. How can that be that Jesus need 'learn' anything? Throughout all eternity The Son was obedient. But now He was given a body, whereby He could actually feel as man the experiences of men and suffer through it. Before with Him, nothing could affect his obedience. Now with a body, many affects are pushing against His obedience. Obedience becomes a 'learned' thing for Jesus, The Son.

As for those who go to hell, just like there are those who are of God, there are those who are not of God. Again, (John 8:47). No one who is of God will go to hell. And all who come to Christ are of God. (John 6:44), (John 6:37)

Stranger
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
God know those who are His. Who are of Him. They will choose Him because they are of Him. (John 8:47) "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

Why would God create anything at all? Why would God not create it so that there was no devil, and that His creation would enjoy paradise bliss forever and ever without sin and death?

All I can say is, it is the way He has done it. He wants His people to go through this experience of suffering and sin and death, as a growth and maturing process. (Heb. 5:8) "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered." Jesus, The Son, who knew no sin 'learned' obedience. How can that be that Jesus need 'learn' anything? Throughout all eternity The Son was obedient. But now He was given a body, whereby He could actually feel as man the experiences of men and suffer through it. Before with Him, nothing could affect his obedience. Now with a body, many affects are pushing against His obedience. Obedience becomes a 'learned' thing for Jesus, The Son.

As for those who go to hell, just like there are those who are of God, there are those who are not of God. Again, (John 8:47). No one who is of God will go to hell. And all who come to Christ are of God. (John 6:44), (John 6:37)

Stranger
Yet if He already knows,what's the point
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,459
31,580
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was really suggesting that your assumption might not be accepted by everyone...
satan led a coup 1/3 of our Father's children followed him at that point God could had killed them all
But then we serve a loving and merciful God!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

marksman

My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Feb 27, 2008
5,578
2,446
113
82
Melbourne Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and ALL the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age. We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.

None of these verses say that we were in spiritual bodies for millions of years before God destroyed the earth.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sorry, but I cannot vote on this as this is not something I've ever heard commented on. Could you perhaps please refer me to some scriptures that speak of souls existing before birth? Jeremiah 1:5 is all well and good, but I hope it is not all that this idea is resting on. If God is outside of time, then he would know us at any 'time'. Therefore we should not, I think, use this to argue we existed before our conception; just that God knew of it, who we would be and do...because he already existed in that time and space.

Yeah, I find in the scriptures where God created Adam & Eve and then told them to be fruitful and multiply. I find nothing in the scriptures where it says each individual human is created. I also find nothing in the scriptures that say we have souls. I do see in scripture that say we are souls. God created Adam & Eve then procreation took over when God told them to be fruitful and multiply..
 
  • Like
Reactions: brakelite

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Yeah, I find in the scriptures where God created Adam & Eve and then told them to be fruitful and multiply. I find nothing in the scriptures where it says each individual human is created. I also find nothing in the scriptures that say we have souls. I do see in scripture that say we are souls. God created Adam & Eve then procreation took over when God told them to be fruitful and multiply..

Genesis 1:28 "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, ad over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

focus on replenish,for some to be (re)it had to had been...Also notice this is not what He told (THE)man Adam
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Yeah, I find in the scriptures where God created Adam & Eve and then told them to be fruitful and multiply. I find nothing in the scriptures where it says each individual human is created. I also find nothing in the scriptures that say we have souls. I do see in scripture that say we are souls. God created Adam & Eve then procreation took over when God told them to be fruitful and multiply..

So why did He hate Easu before he was in the womb?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy and Giuliano