When will God gather Israel?

[Robert Gwin]

@dad ... both correct.
Majority of Tribesmen/ Jews come into Belief in Jesus their Messiah are saved (soul and spirit) during the Seals & Trumps of the Trib. AND bodily die. They are resurrected during the First Resurrection.
Remember no Salvation is given, UNTIL a body dies.

The Israel of God who died are those who were resurrected during the first resurrection, which we believe has already happened. Since the resurrection has happened, if we are correct that is, those who die now will be instantly resurrected upon their death, and then finally those who are alive at the return of Jesus will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to join him. 1 Thes 4:17 Many people call that the rapture.

We also believe that those who come out of the great tribulation alive, will never have to die. Salvation for them is after the test when satan is released. These are the other sheep Jesus referred to at Jn 10:16

 

[Robert Gwin]

The topic is when God restores Israel, not 'all of God's people'.

Yes, but since you said God, then I assumed you were referring to the Israel He was going to restore, which He has done. You are pointing to the nation of Israel over the Israel of God which He was referring to in the restoration. The Kingdom was taken from Israel and given to the New Israel, His Israel made up from people of all nations.

 

[Robert Gwin]

No. We see he had councils with God in heaven with Satan attending. The accuser of the saints accuses us day and night to God.

Not after the war in heaven sir Rev 12:7-9. Do you believe that war is yet future Dad?

 

[Taken]

I am seeing a bit of contradiction Taken, true satan and those demons were cast down as you stated, and their residence is on the earth as you again correctly stated, but I guess our difference in understanding is that we believe that judgment was permanent Rev 12:12. When he is removed from the earth in the near future, he will not be allowed access to the earth, until the end of the millennial reign of Christ, to be released for a short time, then will come his final judgment, the lake of fire along with all those who stand with him Rev 20:10

It’s more of an understanding...
* Currently, there are Heaven(S).
* Currently, there is Earth, with Levels, (surface, ie face of the earth: holes, ie valleys, caverns, pits; Hills, Mts., Hell).
* Currently, there is a Division/Separation, BETWEEN the Heaven(S) and Earth.
* Historically the High Heaven is Gods Abode/Estate.
* Historically the HeavenS is Gods Kingdom.
* Historically the Heavens were/are Holy Angels Estate.
* Historically the Earth was/is manKINDS Estate.

* Historically God/Holy Angels have free roam, Between Heaven & Earth.
* Historically manKIND has free roam, on the face of the earth, valley’s, hills, and water that covers the earth.
* Historically for a man to reach the LOWER HEAVENS, (where clouds are, air thins) man did so by climbing UP atop of a mountain.
* Presently mankind can travel to the LOWER HEAVENS, (via motor, fueled energy, planes, choppers, balloons, jets, rockets, or climb a mountain)

* WHEN GOD effects where and when any Angel (holy or fallen)...or any man (sinner or forgiven sinner)...
IS: “summoned” or “sent”,
IS: By, Through, Of Gods Authority and Power.

Gods Judgements occur continuously...
Gods Effects, (consequences) of His Judgements may occur right THEN or LATER.
Meaning, you may be judged for doing a good deed on Gods behalf, and receive a Blessing right then.
Meaning, you will be judged for your belief, and receive an end of Days Sentence/ Judgement/ Final Consequence.

In the meantime, mens body’s die, body’s return to the earth, souls are sent to hell, souls may be summoned to heaven, spirits may be summoned to heaven, spirits may be sent to hell, spirits may be released from hell...those are temporary judgements and consequences....
* There shall be FINAL Judging and FINAL Judgements for ALL of Gods Creations.

Regarding Satan..
We are informed of judging against him, when, why, how long.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[dad]

Yes, but since you said God, then I assumed you were referring to the Israel He was going to restore, which He has done. You are pointing to the nation of Israel over the Israel of God which He was referring to in the restoration. The Kingdom was taken from Israel and given to the New Israel, His Israel made up from people of all nations.

The (part of) Israel that will be saved is not the (part of) Israel that is saved today.
Isaiah 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isaiah 41:17

When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the Lord will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.


Did you think Israel here was you?

It seems clear who God calls Israel


30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

Do you think God is talking about the Raptured Bride when we this?

Joel 3:2

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land

Can you remind us when Christians were 'scattered'?

If Israel were just believers what is this talking about?
Acts 9:15

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Paul was to bear His name before Israel. You thought that meant he was Israel and was preaching to himself?

Who was he talking to here if there only Israel was Christians?

Acts 13:16

Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

So I think the truth is that not all Israel are the true children of God by faith, but they are still Israel! Once they do accept Jesus in the end and all Israel is saved, then they will all be the true Israel! The Jews who were and are saved before that, of course are already part of the true Israel. But you can't wave Israel away over a few verses in the New Testament taken out of context.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


The blindness of Israel (that keeps them from being 'true' Israel) will be TAKEN AWAY in the end! ALL Israel then will be saved.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The (part of) Israel that will be saved is not the (part of) Israel that is saved today.
Isaiah 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Isaiah 41:17

When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the Lord will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.


Did you think Israel here was you?

It seems clear who God calls Israel


30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

Do you think God is talking about the Raptured Bride when we this?

Joel 3:2

I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land

Can you remind us when Christians were 'scattered'?

If Israel were just believers what is this talking about?
Acts 9:15

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Paul was to bear His name before Israel. You thought that meant he was Israel and was preaching to himself?

Who was he talking to here if there only Israel was Christians?

Acts 13:16

Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

So I think the truth is that not all Israel are the true children of God by faith, but they are still Israel! Once they do accept Jesus in the end and all Israel is saved, then they will all be the true Israel! The Jews who were and are saved before that, of course are already part of the true Israel. But you can't wave Israel away over a few verses in the New Testament taken out of context.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


The blindness of Israel (that keeps them from being 'true' Israel) will be TAKEN AWAY in the end! ALL Israel then will be saved.

Israel is God's covenanted witnesses sir. No I am not of that fold, but I recognized them and go with them Zech 8:23 That is a requirement for salvation, and God identifies them beyond any doubt Dad.

 

[dad]

Israel is God's covenanted witnesses sir. No I am not of that fold, but I recognized them and go with them Zech 8:23 That is a requirement for salvation, and God identifies them beyond any doubt Dad.

If all Israel gets saved they meet that requirement Bob.

 

[Robert Gwin]

If all Israel gets saved they meet that requirement Bob.

They certainly do Dad, and I hope they do meet the requirements. That is why Jesus sent his disciples out.

 

[dad]

They certainly do Dad, and I hope they do meet the requirements. That is why Jesus sent his disciples out.

The word says they will Bob. Relax. It's in the bag.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The word says they will Bob. Relax. It's in the bag.

No sir, it doesnt. You perceive it to. Again I stress you have to know who Israel is. The Bible identifies them, and for all of us "gentiles" we have to recognize them and support them in their assignment. Zech 8:23; Mat 25:40

 

[dad]

No sir, it doesnt. You perceive it to. Again I stress you have to know who Israel is. The Bible identifies them, and for all of us "gentiles" we have to recognize them and support them in their assignment. Zech 8:23; Mat 25:40

Yes, Bob it does six ways from Sunday. Example.

Romans 11:26

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Clear as a bell.

Your quest is to believe it. Or not. Pretending it does not say what it says does not cut the mustard.

As for the verses you posted to support your position, they have precisely zero to do with the issue.

Zechariah 8:23

Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

That is talking about, as the little phrase clearly denotes, 'those days'. Not today. Not in Paul's day. The verse notes how one day Israel will again be respected and honored as being the people of God, and close to Him. That is not today and that is not about the church.

And the other verse --

Matthew 25:40

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me
Once again that is prophesy about that future time of judgment. Not Paul's day. Not today. Not 1948. Period.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Yes, Bob it does six ways from Sunday. Example.

Romans 11:26

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Clear as a bell.

Your quest is to believe it. Or not. Pretending it does not say what it says does not cut the mustard.

As for the verses you posted to support your position, they have precisely zero to do with the issue.

Zechariah 8:23

Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

That is talking about, as the little phrase clearly denotes, 'those days'. Not today. Not in Paul's day. The verse notes how one day Israel will again be respected and honored as being the people of God, and close to Him. That is not today and that is not about the church.

And the other verse --

Matthew 25:40

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me
Once again that is prophesy about that future time of judgment. Not Paul's day. Not today. Not 1948. Period.

Still Dad nothing changed sir, you have to know who Israel is. Israel is the anointed people of God, they have been gathered from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues. Perhaps if you know the reason they are chosen, maybe that would help. Do you know, or would you like to know the reason they have been redeemed from the earth?

 

[dad]

Still Dad nothing changed sir, you have to know who Israel is. Israel is the anointed people of God, they have been gathered from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues.

Not really. Israel will be invaded in the end. That does not mean anointed people are invaded, but that the area and nation of Israel will be attacked and many killed. So it depends on the context. If we are talking spiritually and 'true' Israel, that is different. And God has not gathered them yet, that happens when He returns and saves them as a nation. The remnant. They have gathered themselves as far as I can tell, but this thread is for people to make a case if they say God gathered them already. You have not done that. So you do not get to say 'they have been gathered'. A better way to say that might be something like 'they have gathered, and been allowed to gather by God, who knew they would in the end'

Perhaps if you know the reason they are chosen, maybe that would help.

Israel are not the chosen people of God today. Only those who choose Jesus are chosen. In the end all Israel will choose Jesus. Not in 1948.

Do you know, or would you like to know the reason they have been redeemed from the earth?

They haven't. They are no more redeemed than anyone else until they accept the Redeemer. That will happen as a nation in the end. Not in 1948.

 

[Taken]

When will God gather Israel?
OP^

During the Tribulation Sent down from Heaven.
* First a punishment for rejecting Jesus, their Christ Messiah.
* Then Teaching the Jews, via Two Witnesses.
* Then Teaching ISRAEL (all Tribes), via 144,000 & a Lamb.
* Then their Body’s killed.
* Then their Souls saved & Spirits quickened and Gathered together in Heaven;
Wait for more of prophecy to be fulfilled on Earth.
Wait for their body’s to be risen in glory.

 

[dad]

When will God gather Israel?
OP^

During the Tribulation Sent down from Heaven.
* First a punishment for rejecting Jesus, their Christ Messiah.
* Then Teaching the Jews, via Two Witnesses.
* Then Teaching ISRAEL (all Tribes), via 144,000 & a Lamb.
* Then their Body’s killed.
* Then their Souls saved & Spirits quickened and Gathered together in Heaven;
Wait for more of prophecy to be fulfilled on Earth.
Wait for their body’s to be risen in glory.

So whose bodies are killed? The 144,000?

 

[Taken]

The Israel of God who died are those who were resurrected during the first resurrection, which we believe has already happened.

Disagree, that has already happened.
IF it had, that would be utterly UNJUST, excluding millions of people for opportunity to be part of the first resurrection, Factually, because millions have not even yet be “naturally” born.

Since the resurrection has happened, if we are correct that is, those who die now will be instantly resurrected upon their death,

Sounds like you have meshed multiple teaching.
* Transforming the WHOLE of man, body, soul, spirit, has been the GOAL from the beginning.
YET, the Transforming, was taught, promised and given IN STAGES...
Some men (particularly OT/ancient men), physically DIED, with the PROMISE, of WHOLE transformation.
Some men (particularly NT/historical man), physically DIED, with the the soul saving, and spirit quickening PROMISE fulfilled, and themselves waiting for the Rising up of their transformed body’s.

It is taking the WHOLE of a man, body, soul, spirit; understanding the life source of each; body, soul, spirit; and Learning HOW and WHEN God Transforms each part of the WHOLE....body, soul, spirit...of individual men, According to Gods ORDER and WAY.

The ORDER and WAY that affects a mans; body, soul, spirit...
ALL exclusively hangs on...WHAT applies to the Word of God; ie JESUS, at an given time....BECAUSE He is exclusively FIRST in all things.
AND, men being responsible for KNOWLEDGE, WHEN the knowledge IS revealed.
(For example...OT men were NOT revealed JESUS IN the FLESH...Knowledge not YET given them, so they were Not responsible for KNOWING and Acting on that Knowledge.)

If you do not follow the ORDER and WAY precisely...you end up mixing different prophecies together and getting a erroneous man’s carnal minded understanding.

and then finally those who are alive at the return of Jesus will be changed in the twinkling of an eye to join him. 1 Thes 4:17 Many people call that the rapture.

That is also mixing. Rapture is an exclusive Calling UP of men, Already soul saved, spirit quickened, by, through, of. Christ Jesus...ie His Church. They not subject to Tribulation and Wrath that comes down from Heaven, upon the Earths inhabitants who ARE NOT Converted.
(And remember, there ARE many Believers, who ARE NOT Converted.)

We also believe that those who come out of the great tribulation alive, will never have to die. Salvation for them is after the test when satan is released. These are the other sheep Jesus referred to at Jn 10:16

End of days is a deep study, that requires Gods knowledge of His Order and Way from beginning to ending to grasp the full perspective.

 

[Taken]

So whose bodies are killed? The 144,000?

Jews, Tribesmen...Faithful to God and having heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

and regarding the 144,000...Scripture reveals they were already saved, redeemed, sealed, and thus have already given their Bodily Life...
Don’t know of a Requirement for a man to Give His bodily life twice.

 

[dad]

Jews, Tribesmen...Faithful to God and having heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

and regarding the 144,000...Scripture reveals they were already saved, redeemed, sealed, and thus have already given their Bodily Life...
Don’t know of a Requirement for a man to Give His bodily life twice.

OK so it is just the 2 witnesses and not the 144,000 you think get killed. I do not recall any verse that says we must die to get sealed? It seems to me witnesses (144,000 in this case) need to be alive to witness.

 

[Taken]

OK so it is just the 2 witnesses and not the 144,000 you think get killed. I do not recall any verse that says we must die to get sealed? It seems to me witnesses (144,000 in this case) need to be alive to witness.

Killed...Yes, the two witness.
144,000, I believe already died and are risen & Sealed & teach the Jews and Tribal Israel, on Mt. Zion.
Killed...Yes, all the Jews/Tribal Israel after learning the Gospel of Jesus.

Salvation is given after a death of a True heartful believer.
Some have received Salvation already, “crucified with Christ”.
All other Believers will receive their Salvation after “their bodily death”.
Point of two witnesses, is to save Jews in Jerusalem, during the Trib.
Point of 144,000, is to save Tribal Israel, during the Trib.

 

[dad]

144,000, I believe already died and are risen & Sealed & teach the Jews and Tribal Israel, on Mt. Zion.

So before we saw that 144,000 I notice this..
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
So all islands moved away (Australia etc) and the heavens folded up and were no more. I don't think one could rationally suggest that happened before or in the tribulation. In other places we see that all mountains also were leveled, so where would that 'mount zion' be where the witnesses were 'teaching'? You see when Jesus stands on that mount in Israel it is after He returns. Why would we need witnesses warning and preaching after He already returned?

Killed...Yes, all the Jews/Tribal Israel after learning the Gospel of Jesus.

The bible says He destroys all their enemies when they are saved, not destroys THEM! If they were destroyed they would not be gathered back to that land.

Salvation is given after a death of a True heartful believer.
Some have received Salvation already, “crucified with Christ”.
All other Believers will receive their Salvation after “their bodily death”.

We are saved now actually. We have received Salvation already here. (except the body, which obviously is later)

Point of two witnesses, is to save Jews in Jerusalem, during the Trib.

Except that they witness to the whole world also.

Point of 144,000, is to save Tribal Israel, during the Trib.

That makes no sense if you say they died already.