When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[Taken]

Stop lying, liar. I answered them the way I chose to answer them. So, I did answer them.

Game playing. Your responded but did not answer. Your standing appears to be as much a mystery to you as it is to me.

I could not care less if you are satisfied with my answers or not. I was not obligated to answer them at all. You are asking questions like that to divert attention away from the fact that your doctrine that we're discussing in this thread is complete nonsense.

Not at all. And even gave you an elementary hint and example….Becoming IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ are progressions during a mans lifetime. Apparently you neither know who that applies to or why.
Zero effect on me.

You said it yourself. I answered. Whether you consider my answers to be "gobbldegook" or not is not my concern. Those questions have nothing to do with what we're talking about in this thread, so I'm not going to waste any more time giving in to your attempt to divert attention away form the fact that your doctrine is pure nonsensical gibberish.

Blah, blah, blah, la, la, la….same old, same old…nothing of interest here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Game playing. Your responded but did not answer. Your standing appears to be as much a mystery to you as it is to me.

Another lie. My standing is no mystery to me and to God and that's all I care about. I couldn't care less if it's a mystery to you since I don't answer to you.

Not at all. And even gave you an elementary hint and example….Becoming IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ are progressions during a mans lifetime.

That's complete nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture.

Apparently you neither know who that applies to or why.
Zero effect on me.


Blah, blah, blah, la, la, la….same old, same old…nothing of interest here.

So, don't respond then. You taking the time to respond shows that there was something of interest there.

 

[Timtofly]

Disagree in part.
Lazarus’ natural body died.
Lazarus’ natural body was buried.
Lazarus’ soul was in Sheol.
Lazarus’ soul returned to his dead body.
Lazarus’ natural deal body resumed living it’s natural life.

All natural bodies LIFE (which is its BLOOD), must permanently DIE, Before a body is Raised up in a GLORIFIED Body.

If Lazarus’ dead body was raised IN A GLORIFIED BODY, not one natural living person observing the event (WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE WITH THEIR NATURAL EYESIGHT TO SEE) LAZARUS’ body raise up.

John 11:
[44] And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
[45] Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

What “them” “they” watching SAW, was the “glory” of God.
NOT THE GLORY OF LAZARUS, in A GLORIOUS BODY.

John 11:
[40] Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

The Glory of God “IS” Gods POWER.
Men standing by watching Jesus SPEAK and the Glory of Gods POWER raise Lazarus from the dead, to resume his natural life, was EXPRESSLY for men TO SEE, the EFFECTS of Gods POWER IN Jesus.

The “TITLE” of Gods POWER, IS “CHRIST”.

1 Cor 1:
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Jesus Himself RAISING Lazarus” from the dead, before witnesses….
WAS for the BENEFIT of the natural living men WITNESSING the raising of Lazarus’, BY JESUS, to BELIEVE and UNDERSTAND…
JESUS IS the CHRIST…the POWER OF GOD…the GLORY OF GOD.

You making Lazarus’ being raised from the dead, ABOUT Lazarus’….ABOUT him being raised in an everlasting GLORIFIED body, is in ERROR.

The event was ABOUT JESUS’ IS THE CHRIST, the POWER OF GOD….WHAT the POWER of God CAN DO and men witnessing the POWER OF GOD, and them BELIEVING the POWER OF God IS Jesus, IS IN Jesus; Was them witnessing the Glory (Power) of Gods WORKS.

A natural bodily life that DIES, and then is brought back to LIVING, “RESUMES”, or otherwise RETURNS to living it’s natural life, and once AGAIN IS “SEEN” alive BY other Natural living men.

A natural bodily life that DIES, and then is RAISED in an everlasting GLORIFIED BODY, “that Glorified body IS NOT SEEN by the eyes of natural living men”.

Obviously God's power never let Lazarus die physically again and his permanent incorruptible physical body ascended to Paradise with all the other residence of Abraham's bosom resurrected at the Cross, in their permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Certainly Lazarus lived on earth until the Cross and that last day resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

God “comes up with” His ORDER, His WAY, His WILL.

I simply read the Knowledge IN Scripture, Trust it is True, and Get Gods UNDERSTANDING of His True KNOWLEDGE, by ASKING God Himself.

God has THE POWER, to raise up any naturally DEAD man to resume that mans natural (BLOOD) life.
AND Scripture has Revealed Examples of the ORDER and WAY, God HAS raised up natural men FROM their natural death, to RESUME living their natural life.
The ORDER…
Is a FAITHFUL men ASKING GOD to restore a natural man’s LIFE from Death to resume living it’s natural life.
The WAY…
Is God Hearing a FAITHFUL mans REQUEST.
The WAY …
Is God RETURNING that dead man’s LIVING SOUL to that man’s DEAD BODY.

You DO KNOW…all living souls belong to God? Yes?
You DO KNOW…Life of a natural man IS his BLOOD? Yes?
You DO KNOW….Life of a soul IS Gods BREATH? Yes?
You DO KNOW…Living souls DEPART Dead Body’s? Yes?
You DO KNOW…Living souls RETURNED to DEAD natural body’s RESUMES that natural body BACK TO LIVING it’s NATURAL LIFE? Yes?
You DO KNOW…a BODY that has “put on INCORRUPTION”, is a Glorified Body, that can never AGAIN DIE? Yes?
You DO KNOW…A GLORIFIED BODY, can NOT be SEEN by NATURAL LIVING MENS EYES? Yes?

Interested in an example of a FAITHFUL man ASKING God to RETURN a soul to a DEAD body, so that body would resume its natural bodily Life? It was a young boy who had died. And once the boy’s soul was returned to him, THE boy’s body was AGAIN alive. AND the mother SAW the boys dead body and then SAW the boys LIVING Body.
IF the boys body had been Raised “INCORRUPTIBLE”….The mother would NOT with her natural EYES have been ABLE TO SEE the boys natural body AGAIN alive.

Read 1 Kings Chapter 17, for context and the raising up of a Dead boy, according to Gods ORDER and WAY.

Natural bodies are not allowed into Paradise. All those in Abraham's bosom including Lazarus who got to leave a few weeks ahead of schedule, were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

None of them took their natural bodies with them. That would be the earthly temporal tabernacle that returns to dust. Lazarus was given a permanent incorruptible physical body. That is the power of God.

None of those other cases were a removal from Abraham's bosom. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom for 4 days. There is a physical resurrection. Then there is the first resurrection. Lazarus received the first resurrection out of Abraham's bosom. There is no more physical death in the first resurrection's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Those living on earth in the Millennium will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They will procreate and have offspring with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. It will be like Adam and Eve before Adam disobeyed. They could have offspring prior to disobeying God. God said it would be more painful in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. But having a permanent incorruptible physical body, means one can be seen and one can have offspring.

The church in Paradise are like the angels. They do not procreate. When the church is glorified at the Second Coming, they can be seen by others, but it would blind them after a while, because putting on the spirit is putting on a bright light. See the mount of Transfiguration, when Jesus' face started to shine as the sun.

Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot look on the sun without going blind. Yet Adam and Eve and all the sons of God had on the spirit and shone like the stars. Not that God is confined in light. God is light. That is why Moses could not look on the face of God. But even Moses began to shine like a bright light when communicating with God. They had to cover his face as well.

Read 1 Kings 22:21-24 to see that your spirit is active in heaven in God's presence and you have no control over your spirit. At the Second Coming being glorified is being united with your spirit, and is put on over the physical body like a robe of white, literally a robe of light. Paul points out mortal putting on immortality, or death putting on God, a spirit of light. We are spiritually dead without having on the spirit, the complete image of God as a son of God.

 

[Taken]

That's complete nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture.

When I said: Becoming IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ are progressions during a mans lifetime….according to you is:
“Complete Nonsense and not taught Anywhere in Scripture” ?

Yours is a fascinating yet very sad basic lacking overall big picture testimony.

 

[Taken]

Obviously God's power never let Lazarus die physically again and his permanent incorruptible physical body ascended to Paradise with all the other residence of Abraham's bosom resurrected at the Cross, in their permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Certainly Lazarus lived on earth until the Cross and that last day resurrection.

God does not SAVE bodies.
God SAVES “SOULS”, by “RESTORING” them.
A “RESTORED SOUL”, is God MAKING the “SOUL” (by the Power of God), BACK TO WHAT “IT” WAS, when GOD gave THAT SOUL, to THAT individual BODY…
(WHEN God GAVE a man A SOUL, that SOUL was CALLED……VERY GOOD.)
God “RESTORING” a SOUL, is God MAKING that SOUL BACK to … “VERY GOOD”.

Remember when Jesus said, “NONE ARE GOOD?”
Jesus was making a STATEMENT revealing KNOWLEDGE, that a mans SOUL in his BODY has BECOME “not very good”….
The UNDERSTANDING IS:
ALL BODY’s “ARE” naturally BORN “corrupt”…and the “VERY GOOD” SOUL with GODS BREATH, God BLOWS into a ‘naturally Born BODY’ … REMAINS IN that “corrupt” BODY, BECOMES “NOT GOOD”, by “BEING IN a CORRUPT Body”………UNTIL
“IF AND WHEN”….the Lord God “SAVES” that SOUL.

“IF” … an INDIVIDUAL exercises his FREEWILL…. And “NEVER” Chooses (according TO Gods ORDER AND WAY….
“TO” … appeal TO the Lord God, “TO” Save his SOUL….HE DOES NOT!

“IF” …. An INDIVIDUAL exercises his FREEWILL…. “TO” Choose (according TO Gods ORDER AND WAY…
“TO” … appeal TO the Lord God, “TO” Save his SOUL…. HE SHALL!

ALL BODY’S….MUST DIE, God Requires it…
ALL BODY’s….LIFE, is it’s BLOOD.
ALL BODY’s….ARE naturally BORN CORRUPT…(which simply means, a human man IS NOT naturally born:
BELIEVING IN GOD>IN JESUS>IN JESUS IS THE CHRIST.

EVERY naturally BORN Body, WHICH willingly Gives His BODY unto DEATH….EXPRESSLY as that individuals OFFERING “TO the Lord God”….
That is That Individual EXPRESSLY informing God of that mans ACT of willingness TO GIVE TO GOD, that mans most Worthy Possession…….
HIS BODILY LIFE.

A man WHO…
Believes IN God…shall be SOUL SAVED, after PHYSICAL DEATH.

A man WHO…
Believes IN Jesus…shall be SOUL SAVED, after PHYSICAL DEATH.

A man WHO…
Believes IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ, IN Jesus IS the Christ….Shall be SOUL SAVED, BEFORE his Physical Death.

A man, before or after BODILY DEATH…
Receiving SALVATION….
IS: Receiving “RESTORATION” of his SOUL.

The BODY will still die, sink, rot, return to dust.

PSS…23:
[1] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
[2] He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
[3] He restoreth my soul…

IF, HOW, WHEN….is according to Gods Order and Way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When I said: Becoming IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ are progressions during a mans lifetime….according to you is:
“Complete Nonsense and not taught Anywhere in Scripture” ?

Yes, that is what I said and it's true. Do you have a point here?

Yours is a fascinating yet very sad basic lacking overall big picture testimony.

Comments like this mean nothing to me. Your doctrine is so covoluted that no one can even make any sense of it. The truth is never as convoluted as your doctrine. Imagine if the gospel and God's requirements for salvation were as convoluted as your end times doctrine? No one could be saved in that case since no one would even understand how to be saved.

 

[Taken]

Natural bodies are not allowed into Paradise.

True.

All those in Abraham's bosom including Lazarus who got to leave a few weeks ahead of schedule, were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. 2 Corinthians 5:1

2 Cor 5:
[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Who is “WE”…?
Believers IN God only?
Believers IN Jesus only?
Believers IN Christ?
Believers Jesus IS the Christ?
Believers who CARNALLY believe?
Believers who HEARTFULLY believe?
Believers who CONFESSED their Belief?
Believers who HAVE NOT CONFESSED their Belief?

2 Cor 5:1….applies to a Converted individual…
A Converted individual…BELIEVES…
IN God, IN JESUS, IN JESUS IS THE CHRIST…
HAS Heartfully Confessed his BELIEF…
HAS Willingly laid down his Bodily Life FOR the Lord God Almighty…
HEARTFUL CONFESSED BELIEF:
Lord…Son JESUS and
God….Father YHWH and
Almighty…Power CHRIST

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

None of them took their natural bodies with them. That would be the earthly temporal tabernacle that returns to dust. Lazarus was given a permanent incorruptible physical body. That is the power of God.

None of those other cases were a removal from Abraham's bosom. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom for 4 days. There is a physical resurrection. Then there is the first resurrection. Lazarus received the first resurrection out of Abraham's bosom. There is no more physical death in the first resurrection's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Those living on earth in the Millennium will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They will procreate and have offspring with permanent incorruptible physical bodies. It will be like Adam and Eve before Adam disobeyed. They could have offspring prior to disobeying God. God said it would be more painful in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. But having a permanent incorruptible physical body, means one can be seen and one can have offspring.

The church in Paradise are like the angels. They do not procreate. When the church is glorified at the Second Coming, they can be seen by others, but it would blind them after a while, because putting on the spirit is putting on a bright light. See the mount of Transfiguration, when Jesus' face started to shine as the sun.

Adam's dead corruptible flesh cannot look on the sun without going blind. Yet Adam and Eve and all the sons of God had on the spirit and shone like the stars. Not that God is confined in light. God is light. That is why Moses could not look on the face of God. But even Moses began to shine like a bright light when communicating with God. They had to cover his face as well.

Read 1 Kings 22:21-24 to see that your spirit is active in heaven in God's presence and you have no control over your spirit. At the Second Coming being glorified is being united with your spirit, and is put on over the physical body like a robe of white, literally a robe of light. Paul points out mortal putting on immortality, or death putting on God, a spirit of light. We are spiritually dead without having on the spirit, the complete image of God as a son of God.

Yes, that is what I said and it's true. Do you have a point here?


Comments like this mean nothing to me. Your doctrine is so covoluted that no one can even make any sense of it. The truth is never as convoluted as your doctrine. Imagine if the gospel and God's requirements for salvation were as convoluted as your end times doctrine? No one could be saved in that case since no one would even understand how to be saved.

Knowledge of Gods Word IS Truth.
Men have FREEWILL to believe the Knowledge of Gods Truth…or Not. Period.

( some men Believe Gods Word IS Truth (They are IN God)

(Some men Believe JESUS IS Gods Word, Gods Truth)
(They are IN JESUS).

(Some men Believe IN God, IN Jesus…and that Jesus IS the Christ.)

(Some men Believe IN Their Carnal Mind…
That God, Jesus, Christ MAKE Logical Sense.)

(Few men believe IN their HEART, IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ ….AND call on Jesus’ NAME and Confess their Belief TO the Lord Jesus.)
They ARE, (by the Power of God (who IS Spirt, who is Christ) are MADE Whole (body, soul, spirit)…
(They Exclusively Are IN Christ).

By your own comments you are oblivious to Gods Order and Way of what Applies to Whom and the Understanding of Why.

Presently the MAJORITY of Gods Chosen PEOPLE called Gods Elect…Tribes of ISRAEL…ARE IN God….but neither IN Jesus or IN Christ.

And Prophetically God Himself has an END (ORDER) of Days and (WAY) Salvation FOR His People To become MADE Saved!

All day long you can think that IS nonsense…
Who Cares? I don’t. My BELIEF IS is Spiritual NOT Carnal, (as though Spiritual Understanding SHOULD make sense to Carnal Minds…it Doesn’t…it is NOT suppose to!)

Spiritual Understanding of Gods Truths, is A Gift From God…To Those IN Christ…

If you do NOT Spiritually Understand Gods Truths of What IN Christ means, That is Your dilemma, Not Mine.

 

[Timtofly]

God does not SAVE bodies.
God SAVES “SOULS”, by “RESTORING” them.
A “RESTORED SOUL”, is God MAKING the “SOUL” (by the Power of God), BACK TO WHAT “IT” WAS, when GOD gave THAT SOUL, to THAT individual BODY…
(WHEN God GAVE a man A SOUL, that SOUL was CALLED……VERY GOOD.)
God “RESTORING” a SOUL, is God MAKING that SOUL BACK to … “VERY GOOD”.

Remember when Jesus said, “NONE ARE GOOD?”
Jesus was making a STATEMENT revealing KNOWLEDGE, that a mans SOUL in his BODY has BECOME “not very good”….
The UNDERSTANDING IS:
ALL BODY’s “ARE” naturally BORN “corrupt”…and the “VERY GOOD” SOUL with GODS BREATH, God BLOWS into a ‘naturally Born BODY’ … REMAINS IN that “corrupt” BODY, BECOMES “NOT GOOD”, by “BEING IN a CORRUPT Body”………UNTIL
“IF AND WHEN”….the Lord God “SAVES” that SOUL.

“IF” … an INDIVIDUAL exercises his FREEWILL…. And “NEVER” Chooses (according TO Gods ORDER AND WAY….
“TO” … appeal TO the Lord God, “TO” Save his SOUL….HE DOES NOT!

“IF” …. An INDIVIDUAL exercises his FREEWILL…. “TO” Choose (according TO Gods ORDER AND WAY…
“TO” … appeal TO the Lord God, “TO” Save his SOUL…. HE SHALL!

ALL BODY’S….MUST DIE, God Requires it…
ALL BODY’s….LIFE, is it’s BLOOD.
ALL BODY’s….ARE naturally BORN CORRUPT…(which simply means, a human man IS NOT naturally born:
BELIEVING IN GOD>IN JESUS>IN JESUS IS THE CHRIST.

EVERY naturally BORN Body, WHICH willingly Gives His BODY unto DEATH….EXPRESSLY as that individuals OFFERING “TO the Lord God”….
That is That Individual EXPRESSLY informing God of that mans ACT of willingness TO GIVE TO GOD, that mans most Worthy Possession…….
HIS BODILY LIFE.

A man WHO…
Believes IN God…shall be SOUL SAVED, after PHYSICAL DEATH.

A man WHO…
Believes IN Jesus…shall be SOUL SAVED, after PHYSICAL DEATH.

A man WHO…
Believes IN God, IN Jesus, IN Christ, IN Jesus IS the Christ….Shall be SOUL SAVED, BEFORE his Physical Death.

A man, before or after BODILY DEATH…
Receiving SALVATION….
IS: Receiving “RESTORATION” of his SOUL.

The BODY will still die, sink, rot, return to dust.

PSS…23:
[1] The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
[2] He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
[3] He restoreth my soul…

IF, HOW, WHEN….is according to Gods Order and Way.

Are you saying that those in Abraham's bosom did not have a restored soul?

Do you view Abraham's bosom as some form of purgatory where those souls were being changed from bad to good?

It seems evident that those who received a first resurrection, had both their soul and body restored into the image of God, not just their body.

Are those souls in sheol right now, dead or just unredeemed and in a state of death, though conscious?

Lazarus' body did return to dust. He walked out of his grave with a totally different body. God did not save nor change Lazarus' dead physical body. That is the whole point, I am making.

 

[Timtofly]

Who is “WE”…?

Those currently in Paradise.

 

[Taken]

Are you saying that those in Abraham's bosom did not have a restored soul?

Those IN Abraham’s bosom WERE NOT (dead or alive) body’s.
Those IN Abraham’s bosom WERE “restored” “saved” “living” souls.

Do you view Abraham's bosom as some form of purgatory where those souls were being changed from bad to good?

Purgatory? No.
Abraham’s bosom? A “comforting PLACE” in Hell, “FOR” Saved living souls, Departed “from” their Dead body’s.

Defining some terms…
- ManKIND…is a Terrestrial KIND of being created out of the Earth.
- Person…is a Terrestrial MAN, created out of the Earth, and made ALIVE, by the power of God GIVING (making) that MAN ALIVE, by GIVING that body, Gods Breath of Life (a soul).
- ALL created BODY’s, life is it’s BLOOD.
- ALL created BODY’s, life MUST Die.
- ALL made LIVING SOULS, “depart” out of the Dying/Dead BODY.
- Dead Body’s begin rotting, RETURNING to dust of the Earth.
- Departed Living souls, USED TO ALL…(saved or not saved) go to Hell.
- HELL had a DIVISION (the DIVISION was A GREAT GULF) / WATER, that separated ….
SAVED souls FROM UNSAVED SOULS.
- SAVED SOULS, were IN COMFORT, IN Abraham’s Bosom, “WITH” the “TREE OF LIFE”.
- Where the TREE OF LIFE IS: IS called “PARADISE”.
- What IS the TREE OF LIFE: IS the Word of God.
- Saved Living souls Departed OUT of a BODY, have the WORD of God WITH them.
THOSE departed living souls ARE IN COMFORT.
THEY ^^ WERE called IN Abraham’s Bosom.
- Unsaved Living souls Departed OUT of a BODY, DO NOT have the WORD of God WITH them.
THOSE departed living souls ARE IN TORMENTS and AGONY.

*** Saved departed living souls, “BEFORE” Jesus arrived ON Earth….were ALL IN Hell, IN Abraham’s bosom, IN Comfort, IN Paradise.

WHAT CHANGED??
CHANGED FOR WHO?

WHAT CHANGED, was Jesus (the Word of God / IN the Likeness AS A Jewish Man, arrived ON Earth.
WHAT CHANGED, was Jesus’ BODY was KILLED.
WHAT CHANGED, was Jesus’ DEPARTED LIVING SOUL, WENT TO HELL…(PARADISE) and PREACHED to the Spirits (Departed Saved Living Souls).

We can “speculate” WHAT Jesus PREACHED to the SAVED departed living souls IN Paradise, IN Abraham’s bosom.
Speculating…Jesus TOLD THEM, (departed saved living souls, they would SOON, be IN HEAVEN WITH GOD.)
We can “KNOW” from Scripture, Abraham’s Living soul RETURNED to His BODY, and His BODY “resumed” Living, (his body being risen up out of its grave) AND WALKED about ON the EARTH….WITH Jesus’ Risen Body and His Living soul having “returned” to His Body…
FOR a duration of 40 Days…Being SEEN, and HEARD, by Living Earthly men.
- AFTER the “forty days” ?

Jesus’ Living Body AND Living Soul…Returned to ‘high’ Heaven, from whence HE came.
Speculation….Abraham’s Living Soul (AFTER Jesus’ Soul rose up to Heaven…)Abraham’s Living soul ALSO rose UP to Heaven…
And Abraham’s body RETURNED to it’s grave to resume rotting.

According to Scripture Jesus IS FIRST in all things…
First in Life, First in Death, First to rise up from Death….Bodily, Soul, Spirit.

* Living Body’s Die…and their living soul departs the dead body.
* Living Souls CAN return to a Dead Body, and the body WILL resume Living.
(Cases reveal IN Scripture and testimonies of men not in Scripture).
* ONLY saved Departed living souls GO TO HEAVEN…waiting in comfort (NOW Paradise, NOW where the Tree of Life is).
Waiting for their body’s to be raised in glory, and their living souls returned to their body’s….For Judgement Day.
* UNSAVED Departed living souls STILL GO TO HELL, waiting in Discomfort, Agony, Separated from The Tree of Life (ie. the Word of God)…Waiting for Judgement Day.

Paradise….IS where the Tree of Life IS:…
The Tree of Life IS:…The Word of God.
Paradise WAS…in Gods Mouth…Heaven
Paradise WAS…in the G of Eden…Earth
Paradise WAS…was in Jerusalem…Earth
Paradise WAS…in Abraham’s Bosom…Hell
Paradise IS…in Converted men…on Earth
Paradise IS…….in Heaven
Paradise SHALL BE….on the NEW Earth

It seems evident that those who received a first resurrection, had both their soul and body restored into the image of God, not just their body.

The FIRST Resurrection APPLIES to ANY of man, From the beginning of manKIND, THROUGH “portions” of the (Last days Tribulations Sent down from Heaven), WHO believed IN God and His Word (whether or not they had heard, learned Gods Word is Called JESUS).

*A Resurrection IS, Raising up of a DEAD BODY, Back to its SAME LIVING BODY.
*The First Resurrection IS, Raising up of a Dead BODY, (that Physically Died IN BELIEF IN the Lord God) From it’s Grave in the Earth, TO the Face of the Earth, IN A NEW BODY, and it’s SAVED living soul being returned to that BODY….Facing the Judge…receiving Judgement.
*The Second/Last Resurrection IS, Raising up of Dead BODY, From it’s Grave in the Earth, TO Hell, and it’s unsaved Living soul IN Hell, being returned to its BODY…Facing the Judge…receiving Judgement.

* What about THE CONVERTED?
Who BEFORE Physical Death…Pledged their BODY unto DEATH for the Lord God….What is DIFFERENCE about THEM?
Did they believe IN God? Yes
Did they believe IN Jesus? Yes
Did they Pledge their BODY to the Lord God?
No.
What does “pledging” ones Body mean?
What DID THEY DO?
They GAVE THEIR BODY TO the Lord God…
BEFORE they “physically” died.
How? They exercised their FREEWILL to GIVE their WORD of Heartful Belief.
Belief IN What?
Belief IN JESUS IS THE CHRIST, the Son of the Living God.
Isn’t that the same as Believing IN Jesus?
No.
Believing IN Jesus, IS to confess, Jesus was sent by God, was killed, and God Raised “HIM” up to “resume” living. (And thereafter, AFTER their bodily death, THEN SHALL THEIR SOUL BE SAVED.
Believing IN and CONFESSING…JESUS “IS” the CHRIST…THAT individual, lays down his life THEN, (called a LIVING SACRIFICE), a pledge of sorts, THAT RIGHT THEN, his soul IS SAVED….and his spirit is born again….WHEN … the Last days Tribulations ARE sent down from Heaven….
THAT converted mans, soul, spirit, NEW Body shall be raised up (TO the clouds, Above the face of the Earth) BEFORE Gods Last days Tribulation are sent down from Heaven UPON the face of the Earth.

Is that the First or Last Resurrection? No.
Why not?
Because Resurrections, are dead body’s being raised from their earthen graves, to the face of the earth.
Is a body being raised TO THE CLOUDS, being raised TO THE EARTH? No.
Body’s being raised FROM the Earth TO the CLOUDS is called BEING “CAUGHT UP”…or from Greek Raptur, meaning CAUGHT UP…TO English Rapture, meaning CAUGHT UP…
And to WHERE…is the CLOUDS…not the Earth.

Was ANY other LVING BODY’S EVER “risen Up”, above the FACE of the Earth, WHILE the Earth was BEING Destroyed (such destruction being CAUSED by God)? Yes.
WHO…Noah, and his family.
RISEN above the face of the Earth..HOW?
In an Ark.
RISEN how HIGH above the Earth…approx 24 feet.
What is Earth? Dry land.
How High is the Earth (dry land)? As High as the Highest Mountain peak.
What IS visible for man to SEE, even in today’s Highest Mountain peak? CLOUDS.
IS Heaven described as Heaven(S), plural?
Yes.
How many described Heaven(S)? Three.
The Highest…Gods Estate, where no earthly man goes.
The Mid … what man sees, but does not go, outer atmosphere, no air to breath, stars, planets, stars….Holy Angels Estate, where no earthly man goes.
The Lower …. What men can see…ie CLOUDS, where men HAVE gone, Where men have been IN the CLOUDS, and men IN the CLOUDS, are NOT SEEN, (without technological aid) NOT seen by mens naked eye, ON the Earth.

Converted men ARE soul saved, ARE spirit quickened….BEFORE physical death, (crucified WITH Jesus)…and IN Christ…
expressly BECAUSE BEFORE physical death, THEY expressly GAVE their BODY unto Death FOR the Lord God.
They participate IN NEITHER …
The Last Tribulations sent down from Heaven, The Wraths experienced during the Last tribulations, nor the First or Second Resurrection.
They participate in THE RAPTURE, being caught up OFF the Earth, TO the CLOUDS…
And SHALL RETURN to the NEW EARTH…
* SIMILAR to Noah, caught up off the face of the Earth and he returning TO A CLEANSED Earth.

Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Pss 147:
[13] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.

While this is long, for a forum post…it is just a blip of the Big Picture.

Are those souls in sheol right now, dead or just unredeemed and in a state of death, though conscious?

Departed living souls, departed out of their dead body, are still Living souls…(regardless if they are Saved or Not.)

Lazarus' body did return to dust. He walked out of his grave with a totally different body. God did not save nor change Lazarus' dead physical body. That is the whole point, I am making.

Lazarus’ physically dead body, resumed living, in his natural body. Yes.

 

[Timtofly]

Lazarus’ physically dead body, resumed living, in his natural body. Yes.

Paradise is in heaven in the presence of God. Lazarus is there in a permanent incorruptible physical body. His old body is dust in the ground. So is every other OT redeemed soul, in a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. Lazarus walked out of his grave and out of Abraham's bosom permanently, never to return to death. He and all the OT redeemed ascended in physical bodies with Jesus on Sunday morning and were presented as firstfruits to God in Paradise, where the thief on the Cross was already in a permanent incorruptible physical body.

That is not in their natural flesh from Adam. That is in God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. 2 Corinthians 5:1-4

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

There are no "naked" souls in Paradise. All are "clothed" in God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Paul was not looking to just be a soul in Paradise, but to have a physical body as well. And not the old natural body either. A new body from God, not of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[Taken]

Paradise is in heaven in the presence of God. Lazarus is there in a permanent incorruptible physical body.

Disagree.

His old body is dust in the ground.

Agree.
Further in brief.

Saved souls (departed out of dead bodys),
receive white robes and rise to Heaven.
They WAIT, for resurrection or rapture of their dead body.

Resurrected Believing Dead body’s rise from the Grave to the Face of the Earth.
They Receive Rewards and Judgement.
(First Resurrection)

Raptured Converted Dead body’s rise from the Grave to the Clouds.
They Receive Rewards and Judgement


Resurrected unbelieving Dead body’s rise from the Grave to Hell.
They Receive Judgement.
(Last Resurrection)

So is every other OT redeemed soul, in a permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise.

Disagree.
Souls are restored, saved and justified for Redemption.
Bodys are made new and resurrected.

 

[MatthewG]

Concerning it being a message to the people in Theasslonians, I would completely assume all this has to do with the very last day, when destruction commenced upon into Israel, with everything going up in FIRE. Burning down their heaven and earth, which they understood. (They were completely different as far any other culture), they lost everything they had. This ended that Age.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Concerning it being a message to the people in Theasslonians, I would completely assume all this has to do with the very last day, when destruction commenced upon into Israel, with everything going up in FIRE. Burning down their heaven and earth, which they understood. (They were completely different as far any other culture), they lost everything they had. This ended that Age.

What did what happened in Israel have to do with the people in the church in Thessalonica? There is no basis for thinking that 2 Peter 3:10-12, which is about the same event as 1 Thess 5:2-3, has to do with anything but the actual, literal heavens and earth being burned up.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Spiritual Israelite,

Hope this message finds you well.

Everything still involves people going back and forth to Jerusalem.
The temple to the Jews was seen as Heaven and Earth.


Think about it... God would visit, by accepting an offer when sacrifices were made unto him, and he would show up in the temple.

Therefore - the idea is even to the Jewish people. It was heaven and earth, together in one microcosm.

Every one of the people written in the letters is getting taught the same thing, the only difference is one for Jewish and one for Gentile, but the scope of everything all ties in together into waiting for Jesus to return, and come get that "RAPTURED BRIDE", which is something I believed happened in the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 Ad by faith.

That former Heaven and earth no longer exist.
What does exist is now you become the temple God dwells in, because of his son, and the victory that he has had.

Does this help you understand the view I am expressing? That was very apparent to happen with-in a context of a generation or span of 40 years?

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus to return, and come get that "RAPTURED BRIDE", which is something I believed happened in the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 Ad by faith.

Your claim is found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in the "Future" second coming at the (7th/Last Trump) in the (Catching Up/Rapture) of the Church, as scripture clearly teaches

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hello @Spiritual Israelite,

Hope this message finds you well.

Everything still involves people going back and forth to Jerusalem.
The temple to the Jews was seen as Heaven and Earth.

Where are you getting this from and what does that have to do with 2 Peter 3:10-12? The context in 2 Peter 3 is clearly in relation to the actual heavens and earth if you look at it from the beginning. In 2 Peter 3:5-7 Peter compared a future fiery event pertaining to the heavens and the earth to the flood that destroyed the earth in the past. So, he was comparing one literal, physical global event to another.

Think about it... God would visit, by accepting an offer when sacrifices were made unto him, and he would show up in the temple.

Therefore - the idea is even to the Jewish people. It was heaven and earth, together in one microcosm.

This has nothing to do with the context of 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3, though.

Every one of the people written in the letters is getting taught the same thing, the only difference is one for Jewish and one for Gentile, but the scope of everything all ties in together into waiting for Jesus to return, and come get that "RAPTURED BRIDE", which is something I believed happened in the downfall of Jerusalem in 70 Ad by faith.

There was no rapture in 70 AD. The bride that gets raptured will consist of literally every believer from all-time since all believers from all-time are in the bride of Christ. That has not yet happened.

That former Heaven and earth no longer exist.
What does exist is now you become the temple God dwells in, because of his son, and the victory that he has had.

Does this help you understand the view I am expressing? That was very apparent to happen with-in a context of a generation or span of 40 years?

I understand that you have been duped by false preterist teaching. What you're saying has absolutely nothing to do with the context of passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thess 5:2-3. Are you a full preterist? Do you even believe in a future visible, bodily coming of Christ?

 

[MatthewG]

Hi im just giving information to consider.

I believe the people who were seeking faith were saved from the great and dreadful day of the Lord when Jerusalem went up in flames. Literal flames of fire along with plagues that cmae upon them for having killed the son of God. Yes i believe they psychially seen Jesus come (the faithful only).

There are also secular writers who seen visions through the clouds but that is something ya gotta just go find out for yourslef such as history, early history at that.


Im really glad all of those things are over…

 

[MatthewG]

Your claim is found no place in scripture

Jesus returns in the "Future" second coming at the (7th/Last Trump) in the (Catching Up/Rapture) of the Church, as scripture clearly teaches

Youre right. Its by faith i believe those people were taken. And it does teach for their time they were gonna be raptured.

But i dont hate on those who differ with me.

Have a good day. Im okay by faith: so i dont worry about the return of the Lord anymore. I believe he came, and he lives with us now today. As we wait to leave this life and go on that way.