When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[David in NJ]

You seem to forget that the OT prophet was predicting this 500 years before Christ's first coming. He was predicting in obscure and symbolic terms what would actually happen when and after Jesus came to this earth. I think if you let the NT interpret the OT it might help dispel the confusion you have with passages like this. The Op, which you have no answer to, absolutely demolishes your thesis. Premil essentially results from an unhealthy fixation with, and a private interpretation of, the highly symbolic Rev 20 coupled with a misinterpretation of OT predictions to support that mistaken position.

God's Will is for us to SEE the difference in OT Prophecy concerning the TWO Separate Appearings/Comings of the LORD.

 

[David in NJ]

Your position denies that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Amils believe in corroboration. Multiple Scripture proves that the first resurrection of Jesus occurred 2000 years ago.

the LORD Jesus Christ is indeed the First Resurrection and the First Fruits of them that sleep in the dust of the earth.

 

[WPM]

the LORD Jesus Christ is indeed the First Resurrection and the First Fruits of them that sleep in the dust of the earth.

Ok. So this negates the Premil lie that this is future.

 

[David in NJ]

What about all your “mortal converts” in your supposed future millennium? Are they not physically resurrected at some stage?

Why would they be physically resurrected when God said that He would spare some at His Coming = Zechariah ch14

 

[David in NJ]

Ok. So this negates the Premil lie that this is future.

Forget all these labels which separate us from TRUTH.

Christ being the FIRST Resurrection in no way negates His Second Coming and the Resurrection of the dead in Him.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[David in NJ]

Ok. So this negates the Premil lie that this is future.

Forget all these labels which separate us from TRUTH.

Christ being the FIRST Resurrection in no way negates His Second Coming and the Resurrection of the dead in Him.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

 

[WPM]

Forget all these labels which separate us from TRUTH.

Christ being the FIRST Resurrection in no way negates His Second Coming and the Resurrection of the dead in Him.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

No. You place the "first resurrection" at the second coming. That is a grave error. It occurred 2000 years ago.

 

[WPM]

Why would they be physically resurrected when God said that He would spare some at His Coming = Zechariah ch14

Are there any “mortal believers” or “mortal converts” in your supposed future millennium?

 

[David in NJ]

No. you place the "first resurrection" at the second coming. That is a grave error. It occurred 2000 years ago.

Do you believe Christ when He said: "I am the Resurrection" ?

 

[WPM]

Do you believe Christ when He said: "I am the Resurrection" ?

Of course! Hello! Is that past or future?

 

[David in NJ]

Of course! Hello! Is that past or future?

HE is BOTH = His Resurrection is BOTH

Our dead spirits have been resurrected First thru the Eternal Spirit of God in Christ = Ephesians ch2

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


Therefore when HE Comes, HE brings the Completion of the Promise = His Resurrection of the dead in Him = First Resurrection

 

[WPM]

HE is BOTH = His Resurrection is BOTH

Our dead spirits have been resurrected First thru the Eternal Spirit of God in Christ = Ephesians ch2

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


Therefore when HE Comes, HE brings the Completion of the Promise = His Resurrection of the dead in Him = First Resurrection

This is theological posturing to try to justify Premil. Jesus 2000 years ago literally defeated the grave physically in a real resurrection, which is the first resurrection from the grave. Any further resurrection are therefore additional to that first resurrection.

 

[WPM]

HE is BOTH = His Resurrection is BOTH

Our dead spirits have been resurrected First thru the Eternal Spirit of God in Christ = Ephesians ch2

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


Therefore when HE Comes, HE brings the Completion of the Promise = His Resurrection of the dead in Him = First Resurrection

Are there any “mortal believers” or “mortal converts” in your supposed future millennium?

 

[rwb]

In 1 Cor. 1:8, it's referring to faith keeping you blameless before God until the Day of His gathering the believers, the Rapture.

1 Cor. 5:5, is referring to the sin of incest that one in the Church has committed. "delivering this person over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved in the say of the Lord Jesus" is the Church body separating themselves from this person in hopes he will see his error and repent.

Yes, however the Day of His gathering you call the rapture, Christ says is the "last day".

John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 (KJV) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Discipline of unrepentant sinners in hope of preventing the spread of evil within the churches, and to turn the one committing sin back to Christ that he/she may be saved on the last day when Christ comes again to gather His people and make all things new again.

Jude 23-25 (KJV) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[David in NJ]

This is theological posturing to try to justify Premil. Jesus 2000 years ago literally defeated the grave physically in a real resurrection, which is the first resurrection from the grave. Any further resurrection are therefore additional to that first resurrection.

Christ is the First Resurrection for ALL who belong to Him = Believers are in Him = the First Resurrection

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 1 Cor 15:20-23

JESUS defeated Death because HE committed no sin.
JESUS holds the Keys to Death and Hell.
JESUS is the First Resurrection and when HE Returns, Death will be swallowed Up in Victory in the Resurrection at His Coming.

Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O Death, is your victory?
1 Cor 15:50-55

Where, O Death, is your sting?”i

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, however the Day of His gathering you call the rapture, Christ says is the "last day".

John 6:39 (KJV) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 (KJV) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Discipline of unrepentant sinners in hope of preventing the spread of evil within the churches, and to turn the one committing sin back to Christ that he/she may be saved on the last day when Christ comes again to gather His people and make all things new again.

Jude 23-25 (KJV) And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The last day of the Church Age. I wrote a paper on this in school over 30 years ago. I wish I had that paper now, lol.

I haven't discussed this in many years, so to give anything of value I would have to jog my memory in Scripture.

I do remember in my paper that the "last trump" is not necessarily the last trump of Revelation, meaning at the Second Coming of Christ.

But is more associated with the trump of an ending, a completion, in this case the close of the Church Age.

This trump sound, as I remember is not successive in blasts as in Revelation, but a blast denoting the completion of the Church Age.

I really would have to get in the Scripture to give a better answer. I know this is not much, but the best my memory can muster at the moment.

I will take a look at this and get back to you on the closing of the Church Age, as I very well remember this being the explanation of several scholars.

 

[WPM]

Christ is the First Resurrection for ALL who belong to Him = Believers are in Him = the First Resurrection

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 1 Cor 15:20-23

JESUS defeated Death because HE committed no sin.
JESUS holds the Keys to Death and Hell.
JESUS is the First Resurrection and when HE Returns, Death will be swallowed Up in Victory in the Resurrection at His Coming.

Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothedf with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O Death, is your victory?
1 Cor 15:50-55

Where, O Death, is your sting?”i

Exactly. This negates Premil.

 

[WPM]

The last day of the Church Age. I wrote a paper on this in school over 30 years ago. I wish I had that paper now, lol.

I haven't discussed this in many years, so to give anything of value I would have to jog my memory in Scripture.

I do remember in my paper that the "last trump" is not necessarily the last trump of Revelation, meaning at the Second Coming of Christ.

But is more associated with the trump of an ending, a completion, in this case the close of the Church Age.

This trump sound, as I remember is not successive in blasts as in Revelation, but a blast denoting the completion of the Church Age.

I really would have to get in the Scripture to give a better answer. I know this is not much, but the best my memory can muster at the moment.

I will take a look at this and get back to you on the closing of the Church Age, as I very well remember this being the explanation of several scholars.

You are adding unto Scripture. It does not say that. It the last (escatos) day - period. This forbids Pretrib Premil.

 

[Charlie24]

You are adding unto Scripture. It does not say that. It the last (escatos) day - period. This forbids Pretrib Premil.

Well, I haven't answered the mans question yet, as I said, I will have to search it out.

So hold in there cowboy, and let me come back with a solid answer.

I'm yet to give the reason for "the close of Church Age" and you might find it interesting.

 

[Charlie24]

You are adding unto Scripture. It does not say that. It the last (escatos) day - period. This forbids Pretrib Premil.

What is your main problem with the pre-trib resurrection anyway?

Don't tell me you of the sort that only sees one resurrection in Scripture.