When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?
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So, where is your 7-year tribulation mentioned in 1 Thess 4 after "the rapture"?
Oh, so your "resurrection of the just" occurs before your 7 Church ages? Hmmmm.
Christ, speaking to His disciples, (who are the Church as are all believers) that THEY would experience "great tribulation" as they take His Gospel unto all the earth. You confuse the wrath of God that shall come after the seventh trumpet sounds and the great tribulation for the Church (believers) associated proclaiming the Gospel.
Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Matthew 24:21 (KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Resurrection occurred when Jesus was resurrected.
Are you saying Jesus will not be resurrected until the Second Coming then?
"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
All that already happened, not a prophecy yet to happen.
They permanently left death behind at the Resurrection of Christ. They ascended bodily with Christ. God did not kill them after just resurrecting them. Why would God do that? They certainly are not alive on earth today. None of them were said to have been buried in the dust somewhere.
God is the God of the living. Not the God of dead people. Does God stop being your God, when you physically die?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Brother Charlie,
the Great Tribulation is not God's Wrath - Please examine Revelation and you will see where & when His Wrath takes place.
God's words are the most important element for our Salvation and understanding.
If we change just a word in His word it can change the meaning of a sentence and the Truth can be changed into a lie.
Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth.
The Tribulation is not God's Wrath upon the Saints.
Jesus, the Gospel, the OT Prophets and the Apostles make a clear distinction between Tribulation and God's Wrath.
John 16:33 - I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation.
But take courage; I have overcome the world!”
Romans 5:3 - we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
1 Thess 3:3 that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
1 Peter 4:12 - Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding great joy.
Matthew ch24
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Like NOAH, we will suffer Tribulation but we will not suffer God's Wrath.
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."
Tribulation will be in the world and it will be Great Tribulation when the Antichrist is revealed = this is not God's Wrath.
Peace Brother
Brother David, if you think that I'm referring to God's wrath during the Great Tribulation to be poured on the born-again, you have misunderstood me.
If you are saying that God does not pour out His wrath on unbelieving man during the Great Tribulation, then we disagree.
There are many verses of Scripture that show otherwise.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
"When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape"
You mean like being condemned to eons of listening to Barbara Streisand's music?
You mean like being condemned to eons of listening to Barbara Streisand's music?
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
We are on the same Page = His H
1 Thess 1:10 and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
1 Thess 5:9 For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
Tribulation that we will suffer because we belong to Christ is not God's wrath.
From Genesis to Revelation God distinguishes between Tribulation from satan/the world and God's Wrath.
In Revelation the Wrath of God only comes when the LAMB Returns with it - Rev 6:12-17
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
We are on the same Page = His Holy Word
1 Thess 1:10 and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
1 Thess 5:9 For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
Tribulation that we will suffer because we belong to Christ is not God's wrath.
From Genesis to Revelation God distinguishes between Tribulation from satan/the world and God's Wrath.
In Revelation the Wrath of God only comes when the LAMB Returns with it - Rev 6:12-17
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
If you would just see the 5th Seal as the entire church being glorified, both those in Paradise and those meeting them in the air, you would see the 5th Seal is both those already ressurected and those raptured meeting together in the air, and then waiting for the final harvest, while Jesus and the angels arrive on the mount of Olives per Zechariah 14.
Jesus and the angels have to be on the earth for the final harvest - the sheep and the wheat. The sheep and wheat are who those in the 5th Seal are waiting for. They have to be changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That happens in the Trumpets and Thunders. The church is glorified waiting in Paradise until the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom are gathered in the Trumpets and Thunders.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Jesus will not Return to earth until the 5th Seal is Completed as stated by God.
Jesus Second Coming is not until the 6th Seal
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hi SI,
I've always seen the destruction here as exactly what would happen in a full nuclear exchange..
I take solace in this:
for at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will be.
And if those days had not been shortened, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect they will be shortened.
Come, Lord Jesus!
Pax et Bonum
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So?
The first Day of the Lord was the first 1,000 years of creation. Genesis 2
There has been 2 Days of the Lord since the Cross. Context is key when addressing which Day of the Lord you want to discuss.
Zechariah 14 is clearly the time Jesus steps onto the Mount of Olives and prevents Jerusalem from being destroyed by armies about to invade Jerusalem.
Obviously that never happened in the first century. Zechariah 14 is about Jesus as Prince, not Jesus as Messiah on the Cross.
Jesus had to be born and complete the work of Messiah way before Zechariah 14 could ever be fulfilled.
Are you saying Jesus was not born as a baby, but descended to the Mount of Olives, defeated the Romans, and then demanded to be crucified?
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
Clearly no mention of a virgin birth, no birth, and no growing up. No baptism by John the Baptist. Not even a mention of a Cross.
Now you can spiritualize all these literal events and make a spiritual application. But to totally change the events themselves, is plainly avoiding the obvious.
Neither is there in the context an ongoing phenomenon over hundreds of years gathering all the nations up to that point against Jerusalem. God did not step in once and prevent an invasion of any nation to this very day, after gathering them all against Jerusalem.
This is not even about Armageddon, although some may make that claim. This is still referring to the opening of the Seals, the Olivet Discourse, and judgment on earth after the Second Coming.
It is obvious that Amil don't want Zechariah 14 to be future, because it indicates God at work with living people after the Second Coming. That obviously destroys Amil eschatology. They only offer God a burnt crispy earth with every one dead as a final offering when Jesus hands back creation to God.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is not even what Daniel wrote.
He did not say the just. That is a re-interpretation of the text. This is the rest of the dead after all other resurrections.
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
Daniel did not even say "all". He said "many" of them that sleep in the dust.
Most people do not think that those in sheol still have a chance to repent. Most won't. However they are still currently named in the Lamb's book of life. Until their name is removed at the GWT event in Revelation 20, they can still be granted everlasting life, because even Daniel states some will be resurrected to everlasting life. Daniel is not talking about a general single one time resurrection event. Daniel is pointing out that there are some still in death/sheol that are still found in the Lamb's book of life even though they have been stuck in sheol after the Second Coming, and after the Millennium.
Any one claiming a single resurrection of the just and unjust in these verses are just plain wrong in their interpretation. They are not justified until they are changed into God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and given their spirit as the complete restoration soul, body, and spirit as a son of God. No just people are currently waiting in sheol. They are redeemed, because of the Cross and being named in the Lamb's book of life. But they are in torment because they never received that gift as their own while alive on earth. Daniel is not talking about the Second Coming. He is talking about his own people that have been dead before he was born, and will still be the dead standing at the GWT, 1,000 years after the Second Coming.
Daniel never made a distinction between the time of Christ and the Second Coming. Much less so between the Second Coming and the GWT. Daniel is seeing it all as a future event. Only the NT can break up those events into a clearer picture.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You say the NT should interpret the obscure OT.
Then you contradict yourself and claim a chapter in the NT is too symbolic for most to likely comprehend.
So you just pointed out both the OT and NT are too much for you to interpret. So you make stuff up and replace Scripture with your imagination.
Why not just let God's Word speak through the Holy Spirit, and stop "throwing up road blocks" of your human understanding?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So no one is raised first? All humans are raised secondly?
You should explain that to Paul. The dead in Christ will not rise first. According to you they will all rise in addition to at any point in time.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You cannot present Scripture that states Amil.
It is a taught doctrine. It is man-made. That is why you cannot answer a simple question or provide basic support.
Who was beheaded in the first century for refusing the mark of the beast?
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Mock the Scriptures all you want, but it just exposes the impotence of Premil. Jesus taught this so your fight is with Him.
When Christ introduced the kingdom of God to this sin-cursed world at the commencement of His earthly ministry He essentially announced the beginning of the spiritual invasion of Satan’s territory. Those that were in darkness were liberated everywhere He went. Those that were bound by Satan were released and demons were subjugated. Nations that were once engulfed in total darkness controlled exclusively by the powers of darkness would now mercifully see light and liberation. In fact, everywhere the kingdom of God advanced Satan was decisively unseated. Christ disarmed Satan and rescued men from his power. Everywhere the kingdom of God manifested it was marked by the preaching of the Gospel, the sick being healed and demonic spirits being bound. That is not to say Satan is without power or influence in the world. It is rather that believers under the anointing of God have victory over the evil one and power to bind his influence.
There is no doubt, individual unbelievers are very much under the devil’s control and influence and therefore utterly deceived by him. 2 Corinthians 4:4 confirms that “the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not” and 2 Timothy 2:26 explains how they are “taken captive by him at his will.”
Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (deo) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”
Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.
The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.
The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.
Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (deo) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”
This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.
Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”
Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.
Christ said: “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace.” This was a direct reference to the unchallenged power of Satan over the nations in the Old Testament. The vast territory of the Gentile nations was under his evil control. He governed the nations at will and operated in an unmolested environment – thus “his goods” were said to be “in peace.”
Satan’s wicked grip over the nations was loosened by the life, death and resurrection of Christ. Many millions were liberated by His message of hope and liberation. In fact, if anything was representative of Christ’s ministry it was the binding of the works of darkness and the deliverance of the afflicted. Christ defeated the power of Satan and all his minions with His sinless life, His vicarious death and His victorious resurrection and therefore wholly fulfilled His earthly assignment. The advance of the kingdom of God therefore has seen the pushing back of the devil’s frontline throughout the nations. It is not that he can’t still create havoc and deceive people; it is that he can’t hinder the triumphant advance of the Gospel throughout the world.
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