When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

[Charlie24]

The last day of the Church Age. I wrote a paper on this in school over 30 years ago. I wish I had that paper now, lol.

I haven't discussed this in many years, so to give anything of value I would have to jog my memory in Scripture.

I do remember in my paper that the "last trump" is not necessarily the last trump of Revelation, meaning at the Second Coming of Christ.

But is more associated with the trump of an ending, a completion, in this case the close of the Church Age.

This trump sound, as I remember is not successive in blasts as in Revelation, but a blast denoting the completion of the Church Age.

I really would have to get in the Scripture to give a better answer. I know this is not much, but the best my memory can muster at the moment.

I will take a look at this and get back to you on the closing of the Church Age, as I very well remember this being the explanation of several scholars.

@rwb

I just checked some notes in my old Bibles and the "last Trump" being associated with the close of the Church Age is concerning the study of the silver trumpets that God instructed Moses to make.

It is a comparison of the Shofar trumps that were animal horns used by Israel for communication and warnings, and the silver trumpets that Moses made. Let me work on this in the next few days and I will explain.

 

[David in NJ]

Exactly. This negates Premil.

I Cor ch15 declares that when Christ Returns, the dead in Him will be resurrected unto Eternal Glorified Bodies.

It does not negate the First Resurrection of Revelation ch20 but confirms it = at His Second Coming with the Saints.

 

[rwb]

The last day of the Church Age. I wrote a paper on this in school over 30 years ago. I wish I had that paper now, lol.

I haven't discussed this in many years, so to give anything of value I would have to jog my memory in Scripture.

I do remember in my paper that the "last trump" is not necessarily the last trump of Revelation, meaning at the Second Coming of Christ.

But is more associated with the trump of an ending, a completion, in this case the close of the Church Age.

This trump sound, as I remember is not successive in blasts as in Revelation, but a blast denoting the completion of the Church Age.

I really would have to get in the Scripture to give a better answer. I know this is not much, but the best my memory can muster at the moment.

I will take a look at this and get back to you on the closing of the Church Age, as I very well remember this being the explanation of several scholars.

I believe the last trump sounding marks the end of time given the church (Messianic Gospel age) on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God as the church is commissioned to proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. When the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall be to sound, time given the church on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel will be finished. This same time, John likens a thousand years, is when Satan is cast in a pit until time given the church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God should be no longer. Before Christ appears in the clouds, Satan will be given a "little season" in which he and his minions will be utterly destroyed.

Revelation 10:4-7 (KJV) And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Charlie24]

I believe the last trump sounding marks the end of time given the church (Messianic Gospel age) on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God as the church is commissioned to proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the world. When the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete, in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall be to sound, time given the church on earth to build the spiritual Kingdom of God through the Gospel will be finished. This same time, John likens a thousand years, is when Satan is cast in a pit until time given the church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God should be no longer. Before Christ appears in the clouds, Satan will be given a "little season" in which he and his minions will be utterly destroyed.

Revelation 10:4-7 (KJV) And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This I can tell you without revisiting a tedious study on the Shofar horns and the silver trumpets from 30+ years ago.

The seventh trumpet of Revelation has a span of time until the Second Coming of Christ, some estimate it to be as long as 2 months.

This trumpet has nothing to do with dead saints being resurrected that Paul explains in 1 Thes. and 1 Cor.

The study shows the uses of the horns and trumpets by Israel. How the festivals began with a signal of the horns and ended with the signal of the horns/trumpets. The study shows the beginning and end of several events held by Israel, by use of the trumps.

The Trump that Paul speaks of concerns the resurrection and is the signal of the end of the Church. The dead saints rise first and the living join them in the air to meet the Lord. The Church is now gone, both living and dead.

 

[WPM]

What is your main problem with the pre-trib resurrection anyway?

Don't tell me you of the sort that only sees one resurrection in Scripture.

Lol. What is my problem with Pretrib? Hello! How about: it is not in the Bible? Where in the Bible teaches a rapture of the church followed by a 7-yr trib followed by a 3rd coming?

Yes, there is one final fiture general resurrection/judgment.

 

[WPM]

Well, I haven't answered the mans question yet, as I said, I will have to search it out.

So hold in there cowboy, and let me come back with a solid answer.

I'm yet to give the reason for "the close of Church Age" and you might find it interesting.

Where does the Bible describea a "Church Age" and when does/did it begin and when does it finish?

 

[Charlie24]

Where does the Bible describea a "Church Age" and when does/did it begin and when does it finish?

The Church began in Jerusalem, but because of the Jews rebellion against the Apostles and them for the most part having to leave, Paul turned to the Gentiles and began building Churches. That's been going on now for almost 2000 years.

It ends when Christ comes for His Church.

You'll not find any of this written directly in Scripture, as most things we learn from Scripture it's just 2+2 = 4.

 

[WPM]

The Church began in Jerusalem, but because of the Jews rebellion against the Apostles and them for the most part having to leave, Paul turned to the Gentiles and began building Churches. That's been going on now for almost 2000 years.

It ends when Christ comes for His Church.

You'll not find any of this written directly in Scripture, as most things we learn from Scripture it's just 2+2 = 4.

What is the Greek word for "Church"?

Where in the Bible teaches a rapture of the church followed by a 7-yr trib followed by a 3rd coming?

 

[Charlie24]

What is the Greek word for "Church"?

Where in the Bible teaches a rapture of the church followed by a 7-yr trib followed by a 3rd coming?

There's no need to argue this! That's exactly what I told another person on another site about 30 minutes ago.

I have been arguing this same thing on 2 separate sites. What are the chances of that? But it's happening.

So I'll tell you the same I told him. Your theory places the Church in the middle of the Tribulation.

Paul plainly told the Church that God has not called man to wrath, but believe in Jesus Christ.

The Great Tribulation is the pure wrath of God poured out on unbelieving man.

Jesus told the church in Rev. 3:10,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

But the one resurrection crowd ignores it, it means nothing to them. So there's no need to argue this, it can't be explained to their satisfaction anyway.

 

[WPM]

There's no need to argue this! That's exactly what I told another person on another site about 30 minutes ago.

I have been arguing this same thing on 2 separate sites. What are the chances of that? But it's happening.

So I'll tell you the same I told him. Your theory places the Church in the middle of the Tribulation.

Paul plainly told the Church that God has not called man to wrath, but believe in Jesus Christ.

The Great Tribulation is the pure wrath of God poured out on unbelieving man.

Jesus told the church in Rev. 3:10,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

But the one resurrection crowd ignores it, it means nothing to them. So there's no need to argue this, it can't be explained to their satisfaction anyway.

Ok. Like I thought: you cannot present Scripture because it is not in the Bible. It is a taught doctrine. It is man-made. That is why you cannot answer a simple question or provide basic support.

What is the Greek word for "Church"? What are worried about?

 

[WPM]

There's no need to argue this! That's exactly what I told another person on another site about 30 minutes ago.

I have been arguing this same thing on 2 separate sites. What are the chances of that? But it's happening.

So I'll tell you the same I told him. Your theory places the Church in the middle of the Tribulation.

Paul plainly told the Church that God has not called man to wrath, but believe in Jesus Christ.

The Great Tribulation is the pure wrath of God poured out on unbelieving man.

You do not seem to understand the difference between the wrath of God and the tribulation of Satan. You invent some imaginary 7 years trib that is not taught in Scripture and cannot be found anywhere in the sacred text.

The tribulation is the wrath of Satan/antichrist against the redeemed and has been ongoing for centuries. The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and is totally destructive when Jesus comes and cannot be escaped.

Jesus told the church in Rev. 3:10,

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

But the one resurrection crowd ignores it, it means nothing to them. So there's no need to argue this, it can't be explained to their satisfaction anyway.

Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10? Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

 

[Charlie24]

Like I said, completely ignore what I just sent you.

Ok. Like I thought: you cannot present Scripture because it is not in the Bible. It is a taught doctrine. It is man-made. That is why you cannot answer a simple question or provide basic support.

What is the Greek word for "Church"? What are worried about?

My explanation for the rapture is in post #93, see what you think.

 

[WPM]

Like I said, completely ignore what I just sent you.


My explanation for the rapture is in post #93, see what you think.

You obviously have nothing. There are none of my questions addressed there. Please address if you can.

 

[Charlie24]

You obviously have nothing. There are none of my questions addressed there. Please address if you can.

I'm not addressing your silly questions. just as you are not addressing my Rapture post.

It seems you're looking for a nomination to the jerk of the month award.

 

[WPM]

I'm not addressing your silly questions. just as you are not addressing my Rapture post.

It seems you're looking for a nomination to the jerk of the month award.

That does not address any of my questions.

 

[Charlie24]

That does not address any of my questions.

Questions like what? What does Church mean in Greek, give me a break.

Who would answer that?

 

[WPM]

I'm not addressing your silly questions. just as you are not addressing my Rapture post.

It seems you're looking for a nomination to the jerk of the month award.

Lol. Here we have a classic infantile Pretrib response when cornered with proving their teaching is in the Bible. Amazing!

 

[WPM]

Questions like what? What does Church mean in Greek, give me a break.

Who would answer that?

Not a Pretribber. That is because it blows apart what they have learned from their Left Behind novels.

 

[Charlie24]

Lol. Here we have a classic infantile Pretrib response when cornered with proving their teaching is in the Bible. Amazing!

Show me what's wrong with post# 93.

That should be interesting.

 

[WPM]

Let's not worry about Satan right now, let's go to the Scripture.

Daniel said there will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust. What most folks believe is there is one resurrection at the return of Christ, that in not correct.

Setting aside the resurrection of the 144,00 for now, let's concentrate on the resurrection of the just and the unjust, as I said, they are two separate resurrections.

Rev. 20:4

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

These are the 144,000 that gave their lives for Christ during the Great Tribulation, they were resurrected and will reign with Christ in the Millennial reign of Christ. We will not recognize this for now, we will set it aside. Next verse.

Rev. 20:5

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Notice that the rest of the dead have not been resurrected as of yet. They will have to wait another 1000 years to be resurrected. Also notice that the resurrection of the 144,000 is called "the first resurrection" so there is a "second resurrection" after 1000 years.

There is no mention of the resurrection of the just in Revelation, that's because that resurrection has already taken place before the Book of Revelation began to unfold. That resurrection took place in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, it was the Rapture that Paul spoke of.

Here's what so difficult to understand, but when you do, it all comes together. The "first resurrection" that John spoke of is divided in time. In other words, the Rapture that took place before Revelation begins and the resurrection of the 144,000 are together the "first resurrection." It is the resurrection of the just but taken place at different times.

The resurrection that must wait for 1000 years is the resurrection of the unjust. It's found in Rev. 20:11-15, it is the Great White Throne of Judgment. This is when the unsaved are resurrected from the grave and judged by God.

Most think this is the resurrection of the just and the unjust, not true.

You know yourself that the born-again in Christ are faultless in the sight of God because they are in Christ. No child of God will stand in judgment before God, we are only judged at the Bema Seat/the Judgment Seat of Christ, to see if our works pass the test of fire. It's where the rewards are given to the faithful in Christ. Paul said if the works of the believer are burned up, he will still be saved inspite of the works being burned up.

Hello! Where is your rapture in Revelation? Where is your 7-years tribulation? Where is your 3rd coming. You make so many assumptions without actually proving anything. What is more, Christians are on earth through the tribulation in Revelation. Read it. It started after the earthly ministry of Christ. Notwithstanding, the redeemed are protected from the wrath upon the wicked, but they are subject to the wrath of Satan/antichrist. These are 2 completely different tribulations.

It is time you you to come up with some solid biblical evidence or we can just dismiss this for what it is: a 19th century Jesuit invention.