Where did Jesus go when he died?

[rwb]

Thank you for your detailed response and your insight. I have a few concerns though that I hope you can address:

Are you saying that the souls that were waiting under the altar are only referring to the OT saints in Abraham's Bosom?

I ask you this, because the "souls" are identified as those who were killed (martyred) who hold to the Word of God and the testimony of the Lamb, which they had.

Revelation 6:9 (WEB) 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony of the Lamb which they had.

Yes, I believe these martyred souls are Old Covenant faithful saints. Notice in Rev 6 there is no name of Jesus mentioned, as we find of the martyred saints in Rev 20. They knew of the Messiah foretold in the law and prophets who was to come, but they were not acquainted with the name, Jesus. They foretell only of the Messiah/Savior who was to come. or as WEB shows the Lamb. They were not witnesses of Jesus because they had heard only of a coming Messiah as a Lamb. They had not partaken of the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of Christ, nor were they yet physcially resurrected before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

Revelation 6:9-10 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These Old Covenant faithful saints, I believe could not ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers until their fellowservants of Old and their brethren (Christ) were also killed as they were. After the advent of Christ's cross & resurrection, the next time these martyred saints are seen in heaven as living soul a spiritual body of believers, no longer waiting under the altar for the promised Messiah Lamb who would come to give His life for them and all who would believe in Him.

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Hebrews 9:15 (WEB) For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Now that Lord Jesus offered himself as the sacrifice for all sins, those OT saints who were waiting in Abrahams Bosom are now in Paradise in Heaven awaiting the resurrection - because the price for their sins was paid for in full.

Yes, exactly! All who are under the first Covenant, those who have part in the resurrection life of Christ, who is the "first resurrection", be grace through faith by the power of His Gospel and Holy Spirit have eternal life through Him. It is not yet immortal & incorruptible physical life, but eternal life through our spirit with His Spirit within you.

The spiritual body, at the resurrection, occurs at the last trump in a moment of time, in the twinkling of the eye.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (WEB) 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

So the souls under the altar cannot be resurrected OT saints, or OT saints who were in Abraham's Bosom.

The resurrection in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds will not be for spiritual life. It will be for immortal & incorruptible physical life prepared for life on the new earth, where there shall be no more death, no more sin. Mankind is made of a body + spirit (breath of life) and together we are living souls. Why would our mortal body be resurrected immortal and incorruptible if we shall then be spiritual body? It is our flesh & blood body that cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Which is why our body too must be resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. Our new immortal & incorruptible body will once again be alive through our living spirits that return with Christ. The spiritual body of faithful saints in heaven, having died in Jesus will return with Him. Not to remain spiritual body, but to give life to our immortal & incorruptible physical body resurrected to life again.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The Old Covenant faithful saints who were waiting under the altar for the Messiah to come and redeem them from death ascended with Christ to heaven after His resurrection. Christ went to the lower parts of the earth, Abraham's bosom to take them with Him to heaven a spiritual body of believers. At the same time Christ set the captives free, He also gave gifts to the Church,

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9-10 (KJV) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The word for soul is "psyxḗ" and does not have to refer to the uniting of the body and the spirit; rather, it can refer to the unique personhood even if not in a body, in the same way "spirit" of a person is used - the context is our guide to what is meant.

5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

4151 pneúma – properly, spirit (Spirit), wind, or breath. The most frequent meaning (translation) of 4151 (pneúma) in the NT is "spirit" ("Spirit"). Only the context however determines which sense(s) is meant.

Matthew 10:28 (WEB) 28 Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy [cut off spiritually from God's presence] both soul and body in Gehenna.

Do you have any thoughts about this?

I agree! The word translated 'soul' pertains to life. Complete mankind with body + spirit is in life a living soul. Those who are of faith in Christ before they die are still living souls or spiritual body of Christ in heaven, but without physical form. Because flesh and blood, nor corruption can enter the Kingdom of God.

Christ, speaking to faithful saints says we don't have to fear those who can take our life (physical/soul), but cannot destroy BOTH soul (spirit) and body. Man can kill our body, but man cannot take our eternal spirit life that we have in Christ when we live and believe in Him.

I hope I've written in a clear manner that you might be able to understand how I have come to understand death according to my study of the Word of God.

Edited 12:09 pm

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Seriously!

You may run with that then, but i want to finish by saying to true born again readers. That, verse 19, clearly states. 'spirits'. as according to Hebrews 1:14, are 'angels', and not 'souls'.

Only, in verse 20, in regards Noah and his family, 8 of them who are flesh and blood, are referred to as, 'souls'. Thank you.

So do you consider me not a true born again believer? It implies this because I disagree with you.

 

[TheHC]

Since Christ promises that everyone who lives and believes in Him shall never die…

Pardon me….
Please notice the context of His words… regarding Lazarus, Martha had just said, “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the Last Day.” (John 11:24) How did Jesus respond? “25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.d Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.”

That’s what Jesus was referring to. At that time.
Otherwise, saying Jesus’ servants “never die”, even at death, is overlooking vs.25, & is contradicting the Apostle Paul’s inspired statement at Acts 24:15, that there is “going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

Saying those who exercise faith in Christ “never die”, disagrees with other passages like Acts 7:60 (where Stephen “fell asleep”), and 1 Corinthians 15:6…”Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.”

This is the purpose of the promised resurrection, to awaken them; bring them back to life.

Best wishes, my cousin.

 

[rwb]

Pardon me….
Please notice the context of His words… regarding Lazarus, Martha had just said, “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the Last Day.” (John 11:24) How did Jesus respond? “25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.d Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.”

That’s what Jesus was referring to. At that time.
Otherwise, saying Jesus’ servants “never die”, even at death, is overlooking vs.25, & is contradicting the Apostle Paul’s inspired statement at Acts 24:15, that there is “going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

Saying those who exercise faith in Christ “never die”, disagrees with other passages like Acts 7:60 (where Stephen “fell asleep”), and 1 Corinthians 15:6…”Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.”

This is the purpose of the promised resurrection, to awaken them; bring them back to life.

Best wishes, my cousin.

The life we receive when we believe is called eternal for a reason. Just because our body is destined to die, does not mean that we die, because our spirit lives even though our body dies. Christ knowing that all of humanity is under the curse of death, and that we shall all one day physically die, still tells us those who live and believe in Him shall never die. Why? Because He is the resurrection and the life, so though our body, like the body of Lazarus succumbs to death, all who have died in Christ HAVE eternal life through Him.

It is true that there shall be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. Because that is when our dead bodies shall be resurrected to stand before God in judgment to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Notice before Stephen died he called upon God, asking the Lord to receive his spirit. Stephen knew death of his body would not be the death of his spirit, because he died in faith, believing his spirit would ascend to heaven to be with the Lord after his body breathed its last. So though the body of Stephen did indeed die, Stephen is now in heaven a living soul in spiritual body without physical form. Because the life Stephen received when he believed in Christ is eternal, and therefore he shall never die.

Acts 7:59-60 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

For a Christian to fall asleep in death is not the end of life, but rather it is the beginning of life for believers in heaven. The body of mankind is the house/tabernacle/dwelling place for our spirit. When we are in Christ we are not identified by our physical flesh. We have become a new creation in Christ and have gone from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to being eternally spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ within. That's why Christ says whosoever believes in Him HAS eternal life. He says this knowing all human flesh is destined to death.

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 10:28 (KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

If the life we receive through Christ when we believe is not eternal, Christ would not have said it is everlasting and eternal life.

 

[setst777]

Yes, I believe these martyred souls are Old Covenant faithful saints. Notice in Rev 6 there is no name of Jesus mentioned, as we find of the martyred saints in Rev 20. They knew of the Messiah foretold in the law and prophets who was to come, but they were not acquainted with the name, Jesus. They foretell only of the Messiah/Savior who was to come. or as WEB shows the Lamb. They were not witnesses of Jesus because they had heard only of a coming Messiah as a Lamb. They had not partaken of the first resurrection, which is the resurrection of Christ, nor were they yet physcially resurrected before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

Are you saying then, that the first Five Seals happened in the Old Testament, because it was in the Fifth Seal that the Souls of the Martyrs were revealed?

Revelation 6:9-10 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Wasn't "Revelation" revealed to John to show what will happen in the future?

Revelation 22:6 (WEB) He said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon.”

John saw the souls of those who were slain. If they were slain, how could John be seeing them as body and soul alive? Did the resurrection already take place in the Old Testament? Or were they resurrected before anyone else? If so, can you give me Scriptural support for this?

These Old Covenant faithful saints, I believe could not ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers until their fellowservants of Old and their brethren (Christ) were also killed as they were. After the advent of Christ's cross & resurrection, the next time these martyred saints are seen in heaven as living soul a spiritual body of believers, no longer waiting under the altar for the promised Messiah Lamb who would come to give His life for them and all who would believe in Him.

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

In "Revelation 6:10-11" these martyrs were "souls under the altar" before receiving white robes.

Where do you see in "Revelation 6:10-11" that they were resurrected?

Yes, exactly! All who are under the first Covenant, those who have part in the resurrection life of Christ, who is the "first resurrection", be grace through faith by the power of His Gospel and Holy Spirit have eternal life through Him. It is not yet immortal & incorruptible physical life, but eternal life through our spirit with His Spirit within you.

Yes, Christ paid the ransom for all sins so that those who believe, OT and NT, now have the same promise in Christ. The 1st resurrection of the righteous occurs at a point in time, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

The resurrection in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds will not be for spiritual life. It will be for immortal & incorruptible physical life prepared for life on the new earth, where there shall be no more death, no more sin.

Correct.

Mankind is made of a body + spirit (breath of life) and together we are living souls. Why would our mortal body be resurrected immortal and incorruptible if we shall then be spiritual body? It is our flesh & blood body that cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Which is why our body too must be resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. Our new immortal & incorruptible body will once again be alive through our living spirits that return with Christ. The spiritual body of faithful saints in heaven, having died in Jesus will return with Him. Not to remain spiritual body, but to give life to our immortal & incorruptible physical body resurrected to life again.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I agree that "soul" is many times used to define body and spirit together. But other times, the spirit of man is left out altogether, and only body and soul is mentioned. "Soul" does not always mean body and soul together, but rather, can refer to that part of man that lives on after the death of the body, just as "spirit" does.

The body can be killed by others here on earth, but soul is not killed - it continues to live on.

Matthew 10:28 (WEB) 28 Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul.

However, "soul" can also refer to body and spirit together. So, there are times when "soul" is used to refer to that part of man that lives on after death of the body, just as how "spirit" is used.

The Old Covenant faithful saints who were waiting under the altar for the Messiah to come and redeem them from death ascended with Christ to heaven after His resurrection. Christ went to the lower parts of the earth, Abraham's bosom to take them with Him to heaven a spiritual body of believers. At the same time Christ set the captives free, He also gave gifts to the Church,

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9-10 (KJV) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

I agree. But these Passages are not addressing the resurrection.

I agree! The word translated 'soul' pertains to life. Complete mankind with body + spirit is in life a living soul. Those who are of faith in Christ before they die are still living souls or spiritual body of Christ in heaven, but without physical form. Because flesh and blood, nor corruption can enter the Kingdom of God.

The Passage states the following:

Matthew 10:28 (WEB) 28 Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy [cut off spiritually from God's presence] both soul and body in Gehenna.

So, if someone kills the body, they are not able to kill the soul. Only God can cut off the soul.

Christ, speaking to faithful saints says we don't have to fear those who can take our life (physical/soul), but cannot destroy BOTH soul (spirit) and body. Man can kill our body, but man cannot take our eternal spirit life that we have in Christ when we live and believe in Him.

Yes, "soul" in this instance refers to our eternal spirit life, just as spirit does, but is not to the resurrection.

I hope I've written in a clear manner that you might be able to understand how I have come to understand death according to my study of the Word of God.

Edited 12:09 pm

Yes, your position is clear now. However, however, I am having a difficult time jiving your position with the actual Scriptures you are using as regards the "souls under the alter."

 

[rwb]

Are you saying then, that the first Five Seals happened in the Old Testament, because it was in the Fifth Seal that the Souls of the Martyrs were revealed?

Revelation 6:9-10 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Wasn't "Revelation" revealed to John to show what will happen in the future?

Revelation 22:6 (WEB) He said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon.”

John saw the souls of those who were slain. If they were slain, how could John be seeing them as body and soul alive? Did the resurrection already take place in the Old Testament? Or were they resurrected before anyone else? If so, can you give me Scriptural support for this?

When reading the description of all that follows with the opening of each seal its hard to imagine they do not represent what has come to pass, what is coming to pass and what shall come to pass since the fall of mankind at creation. For instance it would be hard to prove the seals representing four horses and their riders are not symbolic of the consequences of the fall. For what they represent is not limited to the last days of this Gospel age. War, famine, death, disease, pestilence, and evil are all evident throughout the history of mankind. These things no doubt have been and shall be less and greater from one time to another, and I believe will also grow worse, but all have been around from the beginning of time.

I believe the fifth seal symbolizes the elect remnant saved through faith from the Old Covenant people from Adam forward. No, I don't believe the seals symbolize only future events. John was told to write of things that he has seen, things that are and shall be hereafter. Not only future events but past events also.

Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

John was instructed to write "the time is at hand." What is the time at hand? I believe the time at hand in the days of John was the time when the spiritual Kingdom of God had come, and that now is the time when the Gospel was to go into all the nations of the world that the spiritual Kingdom of God would be built through the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit would be complete.

Revelation 1:3 (KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

What will shortly be done according to the context is building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that John has just been given a description of.

Revelation 22:6 (KJV) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

John saw souls, which mean alive those who had been killed for their faith. John does not see physical bodies, he sees them only as living souls, without physical form, being the spiritual body of believers in heaven. None shall be resurrected physically before a time that is coming when the last trumpet sounds.

In "Revelation 6:10-11" these martyrs were "souls under the altar" before receiving white robes.

Where do you see in "Revelation 6:10-11" that they were resurrected?

They were not bodily resurrected. They ascended a spiritual body of believers to heaven where they are still living souls, because they are not dead but have eternal life in Christ. Souls simply means having life! Life can be physical or spiritual. As long as life exists we are living souls either with flesh on earth or without flesh in heaven.

As spirit they will return with Christ to be reunited with a resurrected immortal & incorruptible physical body.

The 1st resurrection of the righteous occurs at a point in time, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

No, the resurrection of Christ is the "first resurrection." We partake of Christ's resurrection while physically alive before we die. When we have part in His resurrection we have overcome the second death. The resurrection to come when the last trumpet sounds, and in the twinkling of an eye is the physical resurrection all who are in the graves. If in life we have partaken of the resurrection life of Christ through His resurrection, we shall be bodily resurrected when the last trumpet sounds immortal & incorruptible, fit once again for the Kingdom of God.

I agree. But these Passages are not addressing the resurrection.

No they are not, I agree! They address the ascension of our living spirit to heaven with the Lord. We are still living souls, but without physical body, called spirit.

No spirit could ascend alive to heaven before Christ came to earth a man, gave His life to make atonement for sin, and defeat death by His resurrection. NOW, that Christ has risen, those who died before He came are in heaven with the Lord as spiritual body of believers there. Solomon writes that every spirit returns to God who gave them, but mankind could not return to God spiritually alive without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which was not sent to be within faithful man until Christ sent Him the day of Pentecost. That's what the souls in heaven were patiently waiting for. Because it is the Spirit that gives life, while the body profits nothing.

These martyred souls did not need to be resurrected because death of the body was not death to their spirit. They waited under the altar, the place where the Lamb's blood would be shed for them, and for all who came after them. When Christ came He went through His spirit to those who had died in faith before He came, and He set the captives free from death by taking them spiritually alive to heaven where John sees them as living souls.

 

[Fred J]

You did not address the bolded and underlined text in "1 Peter 3:18-19." Instead, you are trying to refute Scripture with Scripture, but that will not work either, because you don't understand what you are quoting. So, I will quote the Scriptures for you. But even then, you will not listen; but my prayer for you is that you will listen.



Of the three who visited Abraham, only one of them was Jehovah - The Image of the Invisible God (Colossians1:15), who is "The Word" (John 1:1-3).

Genesis 18:24 (WEB) 22 The men turned from there, and went toward Sodom, but Abraham stood yet before Yahweh

The two men (angels) who were with Jehovah, went to Sodom to warn Lot of the impending doom, and to flee:

Genesis 19:1 (WEB) 19 The two angels came to Sodom at evening.



The man who wrestled with Jacob (Genesis 32:22:32) was "The Image" of the Invisible God (Colossians 1:15), who is "The Word" (John 1:1-3).



The beings in heaven, depending on which verses you are referring to, are either angels (Revelation 1:20), the Holy Spirit (Revelation 1:4), or the spirits of the saints in heaven (Revelation 22:6).

In "Revelation 22:6," we see the spirits of the saints in heaven that are with God in the timeframe in which John was shown the events that would come pass at a future time.

Revelation 22:6 (WEB) He said to me, “These words are faithful and true. The Lord God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon.”

The Greek word for "souls" in "Revelation 6:9" has many different meanings, and this depends on the context. Since the resurrection had not yet occurred yet, then these "souls" of the saints under the alter were awaiting the resurrection. The 1st Resurrection of the righteous does not occur until all those who have died for Christ have been killed.

Revelation 6:9 (WEB) 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed for the Word of God, and for the testimony of the Lamb which they had. 10 They cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, Master, the holy and true, until you judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 A long white robe was given to each of them. They were told that they should rest yet for a while, until their fellow servants and their brothers, who would also be killed even as they were, should complete their course.

The 1st resurrection of the righteous ones does not occur until all those who have been killed for Christ have been killed, then the righteous (the dead and the living together) will be resurrected onto Life (1 Corinthians 15:51-54).

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (WEB) 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” [Isaiah 25:8]

To cut short your lengthy quotes and explanation, which am well aware of, thank you.

Let me make it short and simple, i believe Jesus went to proclaim glad tidings to the spirits in prison. These are the spirits, sons of GOD from Heaven who disobeyed GOD in the days of Noah.


They are not the human saints to me, where some are referring to Jesus visited, and i will end here with you.

 

[Pierac]

Everyone needs to chill…. It’s pretty clear! First you need to read the scriptures and stop believing what your told in Church!

Jesus died…that is the answer to the question of this thread!!!

Now, I understand your confusion based upon what your told in Church…So let’s look at Scripture….

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches…

(Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last.
Read again what Jesus said… Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul… an example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my father. Do not miss this connection... Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches.

Act 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Don’t you get it???? JESUS is the frist born from the dead!!! The beginning of a new creation for Mankind… He was Born again!!! From the dead….

Think!!! Don't be like Nicodemus....

 

[setst777]

When reading the description of all that follows with the opening of each seal its hard to imagine they do not represent what has come to pass, what is coming to pass and what shall come to pass since the fall of mankind at creation. For instance it would be hard to prove the seals representing four horses and their riders are not symbolic of the consequences of the fall. For what they represent is not limited to the last days of this Gospel age. War, famine, death, disease, pestilence, and evil are all evident throughout the history of mankind. These things no doubt have been and shall be less and greater from one time to another, and I believe will also grow worse, but all have been around from the beginning of time.

What is being described in the seals are part of the scroll that was given to Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus was opening the seals to the scroll revealing those things that will come to pass, not what happens long ago.

I believe the fifth seal symbolizes the elect remnant saved through faith from the Old Covenant people from Adam forward. No, I don't believe the seals symbolize only future events. John was told to write of things that he has seen, things that are and shall be hereafter. Not only future events but past events also.

Revelation 1:19 (KJV) Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

The seven Churches [although representing churches throughout history] represent those things which Lord Jesus was addressing now "which are," that were happening at the time of John. The opening of the scrolls, is the revealing of what will yet occur - the deed to the earth, when all things would be put under the feet of Christ - including death.

John was instructed to write "the time is at hand." What is the time at hand? I believe the time at hand in the days of John was the time when the spiritual Kingdom of God had come, and that now is the time when the Gospel was to go into all the nations of the world that the spiritual Kingdom of God would be built through the Gospel preached in the power of the Holy Spirit would be complete.

Revelation 1:3 (KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

What will shortly be done according to the context is building the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven that John has just been given a description of.

Revelation 22:6 (KJV) And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

No issues with that.

John saw souls, which mean alive those who had been killed for their faith. John does not see physical bodies, he sees them only as living souls, without physical form, being the spiritual body of believers in heaven. None shall be resurrected physically before a time that is coming when the last trumpet sounds.

The "spiritual body" is the resurrection.

The souls under the alter were not yet resurrected.

1 Corinthians 15:41-44 (WEB) 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.

The only body that mankind will receive after the natural body dies is a spiritual body, and only at "the resurrection."

The souls under the altar did not yet have spiritual bodies because the resurrection had not yet occurred.

They were not bodily resurrected. They ascended a spiritual body of believers to heaven where they are still living souls, because they are not dead but have eternal life in Christ. Souls simply means having life! Life can be physical or spiritual. As long as life exists we are living souls either with flesh on earth or without flesh in heaven.

The spiritual body is the resurrection, just as previously quoted (1 Corinthians 15:41-44).

No, the resurrection of Christ is the "first resurrection." We partake of Christ's resurrection while physically alive before we die. When we have part in His resurrection we have overcome the second death. The resurrection to come when the last trumpet sounds, and in the twinkling of an eye is the physical resurrection all who are in the graves. If in life we have partaken of the resurrection life of Christ through His resurrection, we shall be bodily resurrected when the last trumpet sounds immortal & incorruptible, fit once again for the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 20:4-6 (WEB) 4 I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.

No they are not, I agree! They address the ascension of our living spirit to heaven with the Lord. We are still living souls, but without physical body, called spirit.

These are your feelings on the matter; however, as the Scriptures state, after mankind dies on the earth in the "natural body," then at the resurrection, we are raised with glorified "spiritual bodies" like onto Christ Jesus when he rose to heaven.

Lord Jesus is the firstborn of the resurrection, and he was resurrected with a spiritual body. We will be like Christ at the resurrection - having spiritual glorified bodies.

1 Corinthians 15:20-25 (WEB) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruit of those who are asleep. 21 For since death came by man, the resurrection of the dead also came by man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s, {{{at his coming}}}. 24 Then the end comes, when he will deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father, when he will have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (WEB) 35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised?” and, “With what kind of body do they come?”

1 Corinthians 15:42-50 (WEB)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” [Genesis 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood can’t inherit God’s Kingdom; neither does the perishable inherit imperishable.

 

[setst777]

Everyone needs to chill…. It’s pretty clear! First you need to read the scriptures and stop believing what your told in Church!

Jesus died…that is the answer to the question of this thread!!!

Now, I understand your confusion based upon what your told in Church…So let’s look at Scripture….

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

When a person physically dies, he no longer is part of the affairs on earth, his plans perish with his physical death.

After a man dies, his spirit returns to God.

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

Lord Jesus, as a man, died after being crucified. His body separated from his spirit. Although Lord Jesus entrusted his spirit with the Father, he was not yet resurrected to heaven to be with the Father. Rather, his spirit, by the will of the Father, went down into Hades to preach to the spirits there.

1 Peter 3:17-21 (WEB) 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, that you suffer for doing well than for doing evil. 18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, being {{{put to death in the flesh}}}, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah

Don’t you get it???? JESUS is the frist born from the dead!!! The beginning of a new creation for Mankind… He was Born again!!! From the dead….

Think!!! Don't be like Nicodemus....

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (WEB)
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-24 (EWEB) 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don’t know what I will choose. 23 But I am hard pressed between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Yet to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake.

2 Peter 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that the putting off of my tent comes swiftly, even as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me.

Acts 7:59 (WEB) 59 They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!

Luke 23:46 (WEB) 46 Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Having said this, he breathed his last.

Luke 23:43 (WEB) 43 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

1 Corinthians 14:32 (WEB) 32 The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets,

Hebrews 12:23 (WEB) to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect

1 Peter 3:18-19 (EWEB) 18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built.

Revelation 22:6 (WEB) The Lord God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon.

What was the reason for Lord Jesus giving this example?

Luke 16:20-31 (WEB)
20 A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was taken to his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. 23 In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. 24 He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’

25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But here he is now comforted, and you are in anguish. 26 Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that no one may cross over from there to us.’

27 “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’

30 “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”

 

[rwb]

Lord Jesus, as a man, died after being crucified. His body separated from his spirit. Although Lord Jesus entrusted his spirit with the Father, he was not yet resurrected to heaven to be with the Father. Rather, his spirit, by the will of the Father, went down into Hades to preach to the spirits there.

Rather than answer all of your previous reply point by point, I hope you don't mind if I try to explain what I believe the Bible teaches us about our spirit from another path. It seems that our differences in understanding spiritual life may be what is dividing us.

First, I don't believe the Bible says the Lord's spirit being entrusted to the Father after physical death, went then into the grave to preach through His spirit there. His spirit alive with the Father does not say He could not go immediately upon departing from His dead body to preach to the spirits imprisoned in hell, but Scripture says He had to first go to heaven to prepare a place for His spiritual body of believers that would soon join Him there.

1 Peter 3:18-19 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Christ could not bring His spiritual body, the Church to heaven with Him until in spirit He went there first. Satan and his demonic hosts had already been ejected from heaven when Christ was born (see Rev 12). But Christ must still shed His blood to make atonement for sin, and He must also defeat death by resurrecting from the dead. That's how He prepared a place in heaven for the spiritual body of believers that would be with Him there.

Our spirit with Christ's Spirit within us is NEVER dead! Our spirit can never die because the life we have through His Spirit in our spirit is everlasting. To be a whole living soul, mankind has both a physical body and a spirit that gives our physical body life. That is how God created mankind for life on the earth. And that is the way God will make His faithful saints once again when the last trumpet sounds. As believers we are resurrected to physical life from the graves, but instead of mortal & corruptible our body with a spirit shall be changed to immortal & incorruptible. Once again being designed for life, but then on the NEW earth after this earth passes away.

Resurrected human bodies do NOT become spirit bodies. We will be the same as we were in the beginning flesh from dust that we returned to, with spirit to give our now immortal & incorruptible body physical life. Believers are spirit only, when our body dies and our eternal spirit returns to God alive through Christ's Spirit within us. Just as we are a living spiritual body of believers on earth, so too in heaven when our body dies, we shall continue to be a living spiritual body of believers then in heaven.

This is why Paul longed to be out of his body destined to die, so he would be spiritually alive in heaven with the Lord. He knew for him departing from this body and this world would be much better, but he also knew he was of great value to the spiritual body of Christ still alive on this earth. (see 2Cor 5:6-8; Php 1:20-24)

Paul also speaks this same truth in 1Cor 15 when he tells us what becomes of believers spirit when our body dies. Paul says as spiritual body (the body of Christ) we ascend to heaven. Thinking there will be no life after death, some will wonder how the dead body shall be raised up. Paul says that which dies and returns to the earth is not the body of believers raised up when our physical body dies and returns to dust. The body that dies is not immediately resurrected, but it quickened to life through the Spirit within you. Not physical life when we physically die but made a living spirit that NEVER died when the body died. Because in Christ our spirit has everlasting life. The body sown in death is our natural physical body that shall not be resurrected to life again until the last trumpet sounds. But that which is quickened (made alive) through His Spirit within you is raised (not resurrected) a spiritual body. Collectively, we, the Church are a spiritual body of believers on earth, and when we die we become a spiritual body of believers in the heavenly realm. Because we are both a natural, physical body of flesh and blood, and we are also a spiritual body of Christ that never dies.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:36 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

At the resurrection, when our natural physical body is resurrected to life, believers do not become spirit, we shall once again be a physical body with life through our spirit and shall always be One holy body of Christ called Church.

I'll stop here for now.

 

[Pierac]

When a person physically dies, he no longer is part of the affairs on earth, his plans perish with his physical death.

After a man dies, his spirit returns to God.



Lord Jesus, as a man, died after being crucified. His body separated from his spirit. Although Lord Jesus entrusted his spirit with the Father, he was not yet resurrected to heaven to be with the Father. Rather, his spirit, by the will of the Father, went down into Hades to preach to the spirits there.

1 Peter 3:17-21 (WEB) 17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, that you suffer for doing well than for doing evil. 18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, being {{{put to death in the flesh}}}, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah



2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (WEB)
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are courageous, I say, and are willing rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:21-24 (EWEB) 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will bring fruit from my work; yet I don’t know what I will choose. 23 But I am hard pressed between the two, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Yet to remain in the flesh is more needful for your sake.

2 Peter 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by reminding you, 14 knowing that the putting off of my tent comes swiftly, even as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me.

Acts 7:59 (WEB) 59 They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!

Luke 23:46 (WEB) 46 Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Having said this, he breathed his last.

Luke 23:43 (WEB) 43 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

1 Corinthians 14:32 (WEB) 32 The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets,

Hebrews 12:23 (WEB) to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect

1 Peter 3:18-19 (EWEB) 18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built.

Revelation 22:6 (WEB) The Lord God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon.

What was the reason for Lord Jesus giving this example?

Luke 16:20-31 (WEB)
20 A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was taken to his gate, full of sores, 21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died, and was buried. 23 In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. 24 He cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue! For I am in anguish in this flame.’

25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you, in your lifetime, received your good things, and Lazarus, in the same way, bad things. But here he is now comforted, and you are in anguish. 26 Besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that those who want to pass from here to you are not able, and that no one may cross over from there to us.’

27 “He said, ‘I ask you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house; 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, so they won’t also come into this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them.’

30 “He said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.’”

Thank you for supporting my understanding.... The spirit is not that same as your soul....ie (living being)

This is why Jesus gave up his Spirit on the cross... His (breath of life) and died!!!

Yet told Mary upon his ressurection He Jesus His Being/Soul) has not Yet ascended to the Father!

Meaning the Spirit Jesus gave up at his death was not Jesus himself... but his life force.... see John 20:17

If anyone confused can actually read my last post....

It's pretty clear... Jesus was dead for 3 days!!! Act 10:40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

Many here are not reading scripture, but what your told to believe about scripture....

Paul

 

[setst777]

Rather than answer all of your previous reply point by point, I hope you don't mind if I try to explain what I believe the Bible teaches us about our spirit from another path. It seems that our differences in understanding spiritual life may be what is dividing us.

First, I don't believe the Bible says the Lord's spirit being entrusted to the Father after physical death, went then into the grave to preach through His spirit there. His spirit alive with the Father does not say He could not go immediately upon departing from His dead body to preach to the spirits imprisoned in hell, but Scripture says He had to first go to heaven to prepare a place for His spiritual body of believers that would soon join Him there.

1 Peter 3:18-19 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Christ could not bring His spiritual body, the Church to heaven with Him until in spirit He went there first. Satan and his demonic hosts had already been ejected from heaven when Christ was born (see Rev 12). But Christ must still shed His blood to make atonement for sin, and He must also defeat death by resurrecting from the dead. That's how He prepared a place in heaven for the spiritual body of believers that would be with Him there.

Our spirit with Christ's Spirit within us is NEVER dead! Our spirit can never die because the life we have through His Spirit in our spirit is everlasting. To be a whole living soul, mankind has both a physical body and a spirit that gives our physical body life. That is how God created mankind for life on the earth. And that is the way God will make His faithful saints once again when the last trumpet sounds. As believers we are resurrected to physical life from the graves, but instead of mortal & corruptible our body with a spirit shall be changed to immortal & incorruptible. Once again being designed for life, but then on the NEW earth after this earth passes away.

Resurrected human bodies do NOT become spirit bodies. We will be the same as we were in the beginning flesh from dust that we returned to, with spirit to give our now immortal & incorruptible body physical life. Believers are spirit only, when our body dies and our eternal spirit returns to God alive through Christ's Spirit within us. Just as we are a living spiritual body of believers on earth, so too in heaven when our body dies, we shall continue to be a living spiritual body of believers then in heaven.

This is why Paul longed to be out of his body destined to die, so he would be spiritually alive in heaven with the Lord. He knew for him departing from this body and this world would be much better, but he also knew he was of great value to the spiritual body of Christ still alive on this earth. (see 2Cor 5:6-8; Php 1:20-24)

Paul also speaks this same truth in 1Cor 15 when he tells us what becomes of believers spirit when our body dies. Paul says as spiritual body (the body of Christ) we ascend to heaven. Thinking there will be no life after death, some will wonder how the dead body shall be raised up. Paul says that which dies and returns to the earth is not the body of believers raised up when our physical body dies and returns to dust. The body that dies is not immediately resurrected, but it quickened to life through the Spirit within you. Not physical life when we physically die but made a living spirit that NEVER died when the body died. Because in Christ our spirit has everlasting life. The body sown in death is our natural physical body that shall not be resurrected to life again until the last trumpet sounds. But that which is quickened (made alive) through His Spirit within you is raised (not resurrected) a spiritual body. Collectively, we, the Church are a spiritual body of believers on earth, and when we die we become a spiritual body of believers in the heavenly realm. Because we are both a natural, physical body of flesh and blood, and we are also a spiritual body of Christ that never dies.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1 Corinthians 15:36 (KJV) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

At the resurrection, when our natural physical body is resurrected to life, believers do not become spirit, we shall once again be a physical body with life through our spirit and shall always be One holy body of Christ called Church.

I'll stop here for now.

To say that "1 Corinthians 15:35-44" to talking about the Church, is not in the context. Paul is literally talking about how believers well be raised from the dead.

Mark 12:23-25 (WEB)
23 In the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be of them? For the seven had her as a wife.”
24 Jesus answered them, “Isn’t this because you are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God? 25 For when they will rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

We will be resurrected just like Lord Jesus was resurrected, with a spirit body. Before the resurrection, we are dis-embodied spirits either residing in Hades or Heaven awaiting our sentencing to either the Resurrection on to Eternal life, or the Resurrection to the Lake of Fire, Gehenna - a place of everlasting darkness, fire; which is a separation from the presence of God forever - spiritual death.

 

[Taken]

Where did Jesus go when he died?

Jesus’ BODY went (was taken and placed), in a cave.
(His body was given, allowed by Roman authorities, to be taken BY Joseph of Arimathea; (a wealthy man, who was a Sanhedrin, a secret follower / believer in Christ Jesus, who purchased a new linen shroud for Jesus’ body, who wrapped and carried Jesus’ body to Joseph’s own personal (un-used) burial cave).
(Nicodemus, a Pharisee, brought spices, and assisted Joseph in wrapping and carrying Jesus’ Body to Joseph’s burial cave. There they placed Jesus’ Body.)

Historically / traditionally… per Jewish Customs…A Dead body (buried before sundown, on the day the man died)…the body would be washed, anointed with oil, wrapped in a shroud, strips of linen cloth would be wound around the shroud to secure it, sweet smelling spices would be tucked in the strips of cloth securing the shroud.
The Body would be laid, (supine), on its back in the cave.
The Head, Face, would be washed, (wiped down with a clean cloth and water),
And anointed with oil, and A Napkin, (or otherwise small cloth) would be laid across the head, covering the face.
The tomb/cave opening, would then be “closed”, with stacks of rocks, or a single large stone.
Regarding JESUS…His BODY lay IN that tomb/cave…for 3 Nights/ 3 Days

(Noting…Any portion of A Night, or A Day, is accounted as A Night, A Day.)
A Night, began at Sundown.
A Day, began at Sunrise.
Jesus’ body died and was buried the same Day.

What occurs, WHEN a body is /dying/ IS:
The LIVING SOUL, IS: “departing” the Body as it IS Dying.
Living SOULS, do NOT occupy A DEAD Body.

A natural mans BODY, naturally born, IS Named By the natural parents.
A natural mans SOUL, has the same IDENTITY NAME as the BODY that soul is in.
THUS…the body and soul are identified AS a man…and the Same Name…and becomes possessive…as IN me, my, mine, my body, my soul…..his body, his soul….etc.

While Jesus’ DEAD BODY lay in the TOMB…
Jesus’ LIVING SOUL, having Departed His Body….WENT TO Hell (you can argue the Name of the place (Hell), according to the Hebrew or Greek language…but it is Not a shallow grave, (of some 6 or so feet), as some dead body’s were (and are) buried in dirt, rather that placed in a cave, tomb, crypt, vault, etc.)

Hell…DEEP IN the Earth…A Place that is Described as having Specific divisions (chambers, or whatever your mind speculates the divisions to be called).

A great gulf of water division…
Once side…having the Tree of Life (that was at One time set IN the Garden of Eden) was thereafter set IN Hell. Such Place when and where ever the Tree of Life “IS” at ANY given timeframe……”IS” the PLACE…called;
PARADISE.

PARADISE…IS the “PLACE”….established FOR “LIVING SOULS”….to be Present and Occupy that PLACE.

IN Hell…on the one side of the great dividing Gulf…the. Tree of Life….Paradise…and the Departed (out of dead body’s), Living souls….
OF WHOM ?
OF the Faithful men, WHO bodily DIED, WHILE, Believing IN God and His Word.
….Such Living Souls, CALLED…”SAVED souls”….(which means, their souls, having become corrupted, being IN a corrupt sinful body, were…forgiven AND restored.
Restored ? to what?
Restore to WHAT they WERE, when God gave them A soul with His Breath in it…
WHAT was THAT called?
By Gods own word/ declaration…God Called. A mans body, a man soul…….VERY GOOD.

….Thus when the soul IS SAVED, it is restored to VERY GOOD….and there forward IS KEPT VERY GOOD…BY the POWER of God…and there forward….CAN NEVER DIE (ie have Gods Breath of Life, depart out of THAT soul.)

Jesus’ DEPARTED (out of his dead body)… (Living) Soul, went to Hell….TO PREACH TO the “spirits” IN Hell.

WHAT “spirits”?
WHAT “spirits” were IN Hell?

“Departed Living souls”…(spirit of Gods Breath)
Divided by great gulf…

ALSO….a lower area in hell…called a PIT…
That was “holding” (in chains, revealing, those spirits inability to Leave.)
WHO were THEY? Living souls? No. Created spirits, (before man-kind was created) called angels, called “sons of God”…
And WHY were THEY there ?
* Because ….
THEY were Created (Holy)…with THEIR PURPOSE…TO Serve God, BY angels coming to EARTH and helping, aiding, guiding, protecting MANKIND, during his natural LIFETIME ON Earth…..
* AND UNDERSTANDING the KNOWLEDGE..
(while angels were Created holy, and had/have a specific Purpose….THEY ALSO HAD/HAVE Freewill (same as a man). They could/can choose to REMAIN holy and Serve God according to His Will….or reject THAT Service and SERVE their OWN WILL.)
* Whelp…not a big Secret…MANY holy angels have chosen to SERVE their OWN will.
* AND very shortly (timeframe) after mankind was created and reproducing off-spring…
* Holy angels of God…coming to Earth, assisting men…SAW SOMETHING that captured their Attention….
* What?
* The BEAUTY of FEMALE offspring of earthly men.
* And WHAT were these Beautiful offspring FEMALES doing?
* Leaving their parents home, marrying earthly men, laying with them, copulating, reproducing offsprings.
* WHY was that intriguing, desirous of Holy angels?
* Because angles (created spirits), are all referenced in the aspect of MALE, “he”…
And having NO female counter part of an angel (their SAME KIND OF THING)…to mate with, to marry, to reproduce with….
*. Some holy angels being sent to earth…
(And OFTEN, using their POWER, to appear to Earthly me; IN the ‘LIKENESS AS’ an Earthly man……Exercised their Freewill to approach, court, marry, (unsuspecting) Earthly women….
* The “angel” being the male form, copulating with a “female earthling”… REPRODUCED a strange Offspring…OF an ENORMOUS BODY, of earthly looking person…Scripturally referenced as GIANTS.
* Scripturally, these GIANTS…primarily …
Established their own (sorts of kingdoms and peoples)…
* AND became famously feared by the much smaller statured earthly males and females.

* Gods INTERVENTION and Punishment FOR such egregious acts of the “Original” angels who took earthly females as wives…
* WAS to remove SUCH disobedient angels FROM the face of the earth….
* THUS…they were SENT to hell…to a Pit (area/chamber)…ie chained (meaning even thou they had great power)….they had not the power to escape the chains, the pit…and remain there, UNTIL their Judgement/sentencing.

WHO did Jesus’ (departed Living soul) PREACH TO IN Hell?

EVERY…departed soul, and every spirit…IN HELL.(those departed souls on one side of the gulf (called Paradise, also called Abraham’s Bosom, denoting the comforting side of the gulf where Abraham’s SAVED departed soul was….ALSO those unsaved souls on the other side of the discomfort and tormenting side of the gulf….ALSO the disobedient angels in the Pit of hell….

HOW SO?
Jesus revealed His Preaching Manner ON EARTH….
He Spoke ONE TRUTH, ONE SPEECH, for ALL (believers and unbelievers) TO Hear.
(Some believed and kept listening, Some didn’t believe, some stopped listening, some understood, some did not….)
* THE LIstener’s reaction…irrelevant to Jesus” Teaching METHOD.
* Jesus’ Living soul…IN HELL…PREACHED with ONE TRUTH, with ONE SPEECH for all to Hear.

* From my understanding….
Those IN Paradise (in hell, comfort)….would be ecstatic to learn they (their living soul) would soon be escorted to Heaven, to wait with Jesus, with God….UNTIL all is DONE on Earth, and their body raise up, and they Occupy a New Earth, IN their new body, WITH their Lord God.

I would presume…those departed living souls, in the despair, torment side of hell…
AND
The chained angles in the Pit…
Would have experienced….an “uh oh” moment of truth…of their waiting separated from God, would continue to be doom and gloom and the imagined agony of KNOWING the TRUTH and KNOWING their fate is sealed, with no option to ever be WITH God.

After, 3 days, 3 nights of Jesus’ Body in the cave/tomb…and His Living soul in Hell….His Living soul returned to His body, and His body revived to Living, and He (Body and soul) exited the cave/tomb.

While this post appears lengthy, it is a simple BRIEF overview of Jesus’ Body and Soul and does not delve into every specific, nor address Jesus’ SPIRIT..

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[setst777]

Thank you for supporting my understanding.... The spirit is not that same as your soul....ie (living being)

This is why Jesus gave up his Spirit on the cross... His (breath of life) and died!!!

Yet told Mary upon his ressurection He Jesus His Being/Soul) has not Yet ascended to the Father!

Meaning the Spirit Jesus gave up at his death was not Jesus himself... but his life force.... see John 20:17

If anyone confused can actually read my last post....

It's pretty clear... Jesus was dead for 3 days!!! Act 10:40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

Many here are not reading scripture, but what your told to believe about scripture....

Paul

The Scriptures were given, and you rejected them. There is nothing more to say to you since you completely ignored the Scriptures and remain resolute in your own opinions. I am not here to discuss someone's opinions.

 

[setst777]

Where did Jesus go when he died?

Your description is Biblically founded, but I am a little fuzzy on your definition of the spirit of man when he dies. I agree that angels, including sinful angels are spirits, but at death the spirit of man also lives on, which is also called the soul of that person who died. The spirit that separates from his body at death is also his spirit - spirit and soul sometimes used interchangeably to refer to the same thing.

Matthew 10:28 (WEB) 28 Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy [cut off spiritually from God's presence] both soul and body in Gehenna.

Acts 7:59 (WEB) 59 They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!

Luke 23:46 (WEB) 46 Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” Having said this, he breathed his last.

Luke 23:43 (WEB) 43 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

1 Corinthians 14:32 (WEB) 32 The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets,

Hebrews 12:23 (WEB) to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect

1 Peter 3:18-19 (EWEB) 18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built.

Revelation 22:6 (WEB) The Lord God of the spirits of the prophets sent his angel to show to his bondservants the things which must happen soon.

 

[rwb]

To say that "1 Corinthians 15:35-44" to talking about the Church, is not in the context. Paul is literally talking about how believers well be raised from the dead.

Mark 12:23-25 (WEB)
23 In the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be of them? For the seven had her as a wife.”
24 Jesus answered them, “Isn’t this because you are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God? 25 For when they will rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

We will be resurrected just like Lord Jesus was resurrected, with a spirit body. Before the resurrection, we are dis-embodied spirits either residing in Hades or Heaven awaiting our sentencing to either the Resurrection on to Eternal life, or the Resurrection to the Lake of Fire, Gehenna - a place of everlasting darkness, fire; which is a separation from the presence of God forever - spiritual death.

Yes, Paul is indeed speaking of how believers shall be raised after they have physically died. But what you miss is that Paul is speaking not only of our physical resurrection that shall come when the last trumpet sounds, he also tells us that believers shall at the moment of death depart from our natural dead body and ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers there. Paul tells us what becomes of the whole or complete human being that has died in Christ. If the life we receive when we are born again is eternal, and it is, just as Christ promises we shall never die, than NOTHING, not even death shall separate us from His love.

There is NO such thing as a human spirit body! In life we are a body + spirit called living souls. In death our spirit departs to be with the Lord in heaven, and our body returns to dust from which it came. When our body is resurrected in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds we will once again be a physical human being with body + spirit called living souls. Only then our body shall be immortal & incorruptible and alive through our eternal spirit that returns with the Lord.

Christ, when He came to earth a man was FULLY human with a spirit that gave His body physical life. But Christ, being also FULLY God also had the Holy Spirit within Him from the womb. Even when Christ showed Himself alive after death to His disciples, He assures them that He is not a spirit while clothed in human flesh, because spirits have not human form. Our spirit that gives life to our body is our mind & heart, both now and when our physical body is resurrected, it is not some imaginary spiritual power or super-human being you seem to be promoting.

Therefore these words should be applied to you my friend: "you are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God"

You quote Christ but ignore or are blind to what He is saying. In the resurrection we shall be like the angels in heaven. When we are physically resurrected we will have a physical immortal & incorruptible body of flesh & bone, we will not be like the angels then. What resurrection shall we be like the angels in heaven? Angels are spirit beings not physical beings, so the resurrection cannot be the bodily resurrection when the last trumpet sounds. Christ is speaking of His resurrection, the first resurrection of the dead. When we have partaken of Christ's resurrection life we have already passed from death to life, and shall NEVER die. Because when our physical body is dead and buried we shall be like the angels in heaven a spiritual body there. Our spirit departs our dead body and ascends to heaven, for the life we received when we partake of Christ is never ending. If you had paid closer attention to what Christ is saying, you would notice how Christ says that now that we may partake of the first resurrection, which is going from spiritual death to being spiritually alive through Him, you would not ignore Christ saying "God is NOT the God of the dead, but of the living". And for this reason even Abraham, Isaac and Jacob now belong to a spiritual body of believers in heaven. Though these three are physically dead, Christ says they are still alive in heaven.

Matthew 22:31-32 (KJV) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Because we are alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there after physical death, when we are physically resurrected when the last trumpet sounds, both those who died before Christ in faith, and we who die since Christ has come shall be bodily resurrected through our living spirit that shall return with Christ.

 

[Pierac]

The Scriptures were given, and you rejected them. There is nothing more to say to you since you completely ignored the Scriptures and remain resolute in your own opinions. I am not here to discuss someone's opinions.

You keep quoting scripture that shows people dying.... Giving up the spirit of life.... Yet, you can not show they are not still in that grave to this very today!!! I did!!!

Let's look at one of your more stupid ideas....
Luke 23:43 (WEB) 43 Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

setst777 the greek text does not contian commas.... So the scripture you quote can easily read... “Assuredly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

Yea.... Jesus was dead for 3 days.... You keep quoting Peter 1 Peter 3:18-19 (EWEB) 18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in whom he also went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who before were disobedient, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built.

But know not of what he spoke....
Net Bible commentary: And preached to the spirits in prison. The meaning of this preaching and the spirits to whom he preached are much debated. It is commonly understood to be: Christ's announcement of his victory over evil to the fallen angels who await judgment for their role in leading the Noahic generation into sin; this proclamation occurred sometime between Christ's death and ascension;

Given Jesus was on this Earth for over 40 days before he returned to his God and Father.... He had plenty of time after he was raised from the Dead... so Peter knew this... Act 1:3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Yet.... Still not having been to see his God!!!!

John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her: "Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Maybe Jesus was busy with 1 Peter 3:18-19... and taking the time to teaching the apostles for 4o days.... BTW.... It's does not take 40 days to tell some one you died for their sins.... Jesus spoke for 40 days about the kingdom before the was lifted up!!!

Think back in time.... Luk 4:43 But He said to them, "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, for I was sent for this purpose."

You have no clue do you?
Mr traditions of men.... Think for once what did Jesus say... Luk4:43

 

[St. SteVen]

So, where did Jesus go when he died? Simple answer: Jesus didn’t go anywhere when he died. He was dead in the tomb.

What do you make of this?

Ephesians 4:8-10 NIV
This is why it[a] says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”[b]
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

/

 

[setst777]

Yes, Paul is indeed speaking of how believers shall be raised after they have physically died. But what you miss is that Paul is speaking not only of our physical resurrection that shall come when the last trumpet sounds, he also tells us that believers shall at the moment of death depart from our natural dead body and ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers there.

In "1 Corinthians 15:12-52" Paul only discusses one raising of the dead, which is when we receive our spirit bodies just like Christ Jesus did when he rose from the dead. There is no teaching in "1 Corinthians 15:12-52" about two different raisings from the dead - one with a spirit body and one with a physical body. Only one resurrection is being discussed. However, if you want to continue believing there are two different bodies we will be given at different times, that is your choice, but that is not being taught in the context of any Scripture.

Matthew 22:31-32 (KJV) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Because we are alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there after physical death, when we are physically resurrected when the last trumpet sounds, both those who died before Christ in faith, and we who die since Christ has come shall be bodily resurrected through our living spirit that shall return with Christ.

Lord Jesus is replying to, and discussing, the resurrection. If you want to believe that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are already resurrected, that is your choice, but that is not what Lord Jesus is stating.