Where do aborted babies go?

[Heyzeus]

First, I must tell you honestly that I don't believe you are a chemist/microbiologist. I say this, because I am a teacher of science. My Pastor has his degree in biology. A fertilized ova is the beginning of life. PERIOD. The only thing that changes it is replication. All the stages of life are already present. Our bodies change throughout our lives, but we all started the same. A fertilized ova.

Second, meet my good friend Terry Egolf.

Christian School Article | Meet the Author: Terry Egolf, Science Textbooks | BJU Press

Meet the Author: Terry Egolf


What do the Navy and BJU Press science textbooks have in common? Terry Egolf, secondary author for BJU Press.

Majoring in zoology with a geology minor; longtime ocean-lover; 20 years of Naval service as a submarine officer, nuclear engineer, and intelligence officer; Christian school science teacher; and Christian textbook author. Yes, Terry Egolf has pretty much done it all.


I'd say his resume is superior to both of us.

I don't have to prove anyone wrong. I just have to let you demonstrate that for yourself.

I lift you to the Father in prayer.

 

[Heyzeus]

First, I must tell you honestly that I don't believe you are a chemist/microbiologist. I say this, because I am a teacher of science. My Pastor has his degree in biology. A fertilized ova is the beginning of life. PERIOD. The only thing that changes it is replication. All the stages of life are already present. Our bodies change throughout our lives, but we all started the same. A fertilized ova.

Second, meet my good friend Terry Egolf.

Christian School Article | Meet the Author: Terry Egolf, Science Textbooks | BJU Press

Meet the Author: Terry Egolf


What do the Navy and BJU Press science textbooks have in common? Terry Egolf, secondary author for BJU Press.

Majoring in zoology with a geology minor; longtime ocean-lover; 20 years of Naval service as a submarine officer, nuclear engineer, and intelligence officer; Christian school science teacher; and Christian textbook author. Yes, Terry Egolf has pretty much done it all.


I'd say his resume is superior to both of us.

I don't have to prove anyone wrong. I just have to let you demonstrate that for yourself.

I lift you to the Father in prayer.

Holy Fallacy central - 1) none of the people you put up the qualifications I do -- but what difference does it make? You still have not come up with a coherent argument .. how does posting a bunch of credentials from folks you know support your claim ?

How many Philosophy classes did you take ? - I am sure your Pastor has some training in this but not from his biology degree - but from his training to become a Pastor.

I have friends with qualifications too ! Way more than you do. but who cares .. that does not a coherent argument - does not show that the soul arrives at the zygote stage.

"I life you to the Father in prayer" - as you need your blinders removed far more than I do.

 

[Heyzeus]

Red bolding mine.

This is the problem "I would expect"

You can have this opinion/expectation all you want, and you are welcome to have it. But your opinion doesn't reflect what the Bible teaches.

Sola Fide says that salvation comes from grace alone. It's a gift.

Of course its a guess - none of us knows for sure when the soul alights - or how to pass judgement.

Grace - If someone receive a pass through the gate it is because God is a good guy. This does not tell you how to receive the pass .. nor guarantee that someone will receive the pass. .. so you have said nothing.

Not everyone receives this gift - and the claim that one can get a free pass - just by having faith - is an Ideology not held by the majority of Christianity.

Rather than dwell on the musings of Paul - a fellow who said a number of crazy things - a man who never knew Jesus and did not even become a Christian until years after his death .. .how about listening to the words of Jesus !?

Matt 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

So then .. What is the will of the Father ?

 

[Heyzeus]

Sorry as one who has been involved in the issue of abortion for 40 years I can assure you giving a potion to produce a miscarriage is nothing like going to a paid assassin to ask him to kill your baby and do a medical procedure that involves cutting the baby to pieces to get the dead baby out of the womb which can affect you emotionally for 20, 30. 40 years after the event.

I could post a picture of what that is like but I am not allowed to because it might upset you.

That is just absurd what you are saying. We are not talking about Late Term Abortion here .. try to get on the right page.
Second - regardless of how the Fetus is killed - if it is killed by human intervention - it is Abortion - "FULL STOP"

 

[Heyzeus]

Only to those who cannot handle the truth. Scripture, medical science, empirical evidence, and reality all attest to the fact that when an egg and sperm join, there is your baby with everything that it needs to live outside the womb. The pro-aborts have invented all sorts of fairy stories and this is one of them, to try and prove that killing babies is not killing babies. When one fails, they invent another one. Like it is not a baby until it is outside the womb. So the minute before they are born what are they? Mumble, mumble, mumble.

You are the one who can not handle the Truth - and are projecting your failings onto others.

There medical science/empirical evidence showing that the single human cell at conception is a "BABY' - you are in dreamland.

Your argument - which is not an argument - is rabid "Assumed Premise" fallacy. Twirling around crying "its a Baby - its a Baby" does not make it so.

You have provided ZERO evidence to back up your claim - and the Truth of the matter is that you can't.

 

[Heyzeus]

Where is your evidence that coat hangers were used to produce an abortion?

Why do you ask such a nonsense question - what difference does it make how abortions were done in the old days

Evidence for use of a "coathanger for an Abortion - get a grip. Is the first time hearing this ?

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

I remember reading some of the early Christian fiction named after the apostles, like the Apocalypse of Peter, and the Apocalypse of Paul. One of them had a section of all the aborted babies in hell along with their mothers. So whether fiction or truth, this is what the early Christians believed.

The Apocalypse of Peter
25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.

I have no reason to doubt you.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

So, give us Bible.

If your God burns babies in Hell then what makes you think He will have mercy on you?

God is sovereign. He doesn't need my help to get to heaven. It was a gift from him to me.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

Why do you ask such a nonsense question - what difference does it make how abortions were done in the old days

Evidence for use of a "coathanger for an Abortion - get a grip. Is the first time hearing this ?

Actually the question is well taken. Have you ever seen that happen? Have you seen a photograph of it? How about any medical journals, case files? If women don't want to be responsible for their own bodies, that's on them. If they compound it by trying kill their baby, that's on them. If they end up killing themselves, that's on them.

 

[kcnalp]

God is sovereign. He doesn't need my help to get to heaven. It was a gift from him to me.

He is indeed sovereign, but if He burns precious, sinless babies in Hell you may be in big trouble.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

Holy Fallacy central - 1) none of the people you put up the qualifications I do -- but what difference does it make? You still have not come up with a coherent argument .. how does posting a bunch of credentials from folks you know support your claim ?

How many Philosophy classes did you take ? - I am sure your Pastor has some training in this but not from his biology degree - but from his training to become a Pastor.

I have friends with qualifications too ! Way more than you do. but who cares .. that does not a coherent argument - does not show that the soul arrives at the zygote stage.

"I life you to the Father in prayer" - as you need your blinders removed far more than I do.

As I said, I don't believe you are a chemist or microbiologist. This last post, just proves it.

I have taken three classes in ethics and philosophy. From Kierkegaard, Plato, etc. They have nothing to do with this subject.

My argument is based on biology and the bible. Since biology is observable it's ip so facto true.

Learn how to use logic properly.

 

[Heyzeus]

Actually the question is well taken. Have you ever seen that happen? Have you seen a photograph of it? How about any medical journals, case files? If women don't want to be responsible for their own bodies, that's on them. If they compound it by trying kill their baby, that's on them. If they end up killing themselves, that's on them.

Nope .. and don't care because the means of death is irrelevant.

 

[Heyzeus]

As I said, I don't believe you are a chemist or microbiologist. This last post, just proves it.

I have taken three classes in ethics and philosophy. From Kierkegaard, Plato, etc. They have nothing to do with this subject.

My argument is based on biology and the bible. Since biology is observable it's ip so facto true.

Learn how to use logic properly.

You just made a bunch of accusations - with nothing to support your claim. What in my last post proves I am not what I Claim - but this matters not .. you were the one that brought out the measuring stick - and you have been measured - and found wanting.

I took a Philosophy Class "Contemporary Moral Issues" Taught by a Jew with a Ph.D from Oxford ... friend of mine who would visit the University Chess Club - quite often as he was an avid chess player ... would you like to question that as well .. care for a game

We covered 3 topics - one per month. Pornography was one .. Abortion was another .. best arguments on both sides..

Now back to biology .. you were going to

1) Define what a human/Person is 2) state how a single human cell fits that definition

and good luck to you

3) you have presented no legitimate arguments from the Bible .. nor have you offered an answer to the question of when the soul arrives - complete with an explanation of why ..

which is the point of this exercise .. once you are finishing with Ad Hom fallacy and false accusations.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

He is indeed sovereign, but if He burns precious, sinless babies in Hell you may be in big trouble.

I believe the Bible.

Nope .. and don't care because the means of death is irrelevant.

You're the one who brought it up. I didn't. I simply asked you to back up your claims. You couldn't and so now, all of a sudden, you don't care about it anymore.

Don't make claims you cannot support because you can be sure I will.

 

[Heyzeus]

I believe the Bible.


You're the one who brought it up. I didn't. I simply asked you to back up your claims. You couldn't and so now, all of a sudden, you don't care about it anymore.

Don't make claims you cannot support because you can be sure I will.

Coat hanger was one example of a different method of abortion .. if the morning after pill would be another .. as are the numerous methods used in "Back Room Abortions" which I would rather not think about .. but you seem to want to relish in and dwell on.

There is little difference between the morning after pill and the concoction proscribed by God ... cept God's concoction was quite a while after the pregnancy would have occurred .. well into pregnancy such that the woman is showing - at least in some cases.

So if we go by what God allows .. it is well past conception... and nothing about a coat hanger is relevant to this Biblical Truth.

funny of God to slip that one in there don't you think .. truly "Inspired" -

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

You just made a bunch of accusations - with nothing to support your claim. What in my last post proves I am not what I Claim - but this matters not .. you were the one that brought out the measuring stick - and you have been measured - and found wanting.

I took a Philosophy Class "Contemporary Moral Issues" Taught by a Jew with a Ph.D from Oxford ... friend of mine who would visit the University Chess Club - quite often as he was an avid chess player ... would you like to question that as well .. care for a game

This is known as dodging, ducking, obfuscating, avoiding and diverting. It won't work.

We covered 3 topics - one per month. Pornography was one .. Abortion was another .. best arguments on both sides..

Who 'we'. I didn't discuss pornography with anyone.

Now back to biology .. you were going to

1) Define what a human/Person is 2) state how a single human cell fits that definition

and good luck to you

Try to keep up. I have already answered your questions.

Zygote, fertilized egg cell that results from the union of a female gamete (egg, or ovum) with a male gamete (sperm). In the embryonic development of humans and other animals, the zygote stage is brief and is followed by cleavage, when the single cell becomes subdivided into smaller cells.


zygote

zygote An egg (ovum) that has been fertilized but has not yet undergone the first cleavage division. A zygote contains a complete (DIPLOID) set of chromosomes, half from ovum and half from the fertilizing sperm, and thus all the genetic code for a new individual. Collins Dictionary of Medicine © Robert M. Youngson 2004, 2005

3) you have presented no legitimate arguments from the Bible .. nor have you offered an answer to the question of when the soul arrives - complete with an explanation of why ..

I have presented scripture, you just don't like it. If I remember the scripture was called 'hilarious'. As far as a 'soul arriving', I can only ask you again, to tell me what this means. Where does this soul you are talking about come from. Does it make house calls, is it dropped like a stork. If you can't answer or explain what you are talking about, I can't help you.

which is the point of this exercise .. once you are finishing with Ad Hom fallacy and false accusations.

Ask that question to your self. If you think I have used Ad Hom, you need to show where I did that.

I didn't make an accusation. I said in straight-forward manner that I don't believe your claim. You showed your ignorance (that means you are unaware of all the facts. It's not an insult), by not being able to understand the most basic information present in a zygote.

God is the creator of all things. You were created from two strands of DNA. One strand from your mother and one strand from your father. It contains all the information that is needed from a zygote to the most aged person until death.

I'll be waiting for those explanations!

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

That is a ridiculously "insert word you used" generalization - pardon my french. You are lumping all pro choice into the same basket.

The anti choice folks in that video were completely ignorant of the main arguments. The claim that a single human cell is defacto "a baby" is patent nonsense.

ANYONE who agrees that it is acceptable to kill another human is profoundly wrong.

 

[Spurgeon's Girl]

Coat hanger was one example of a different method of abortion .. if the morning after pill would be another .. as are the numerous methods used in "Back Room Abortions" which I would rather not think about .. but you seem to want to relish in and dwell on.

You are the one using it, not I. You brought it up, not any of us. You do it purposefully to conjure up a hideous image.

There is little difference between the morning after pill and the concoction proscribed by God ... cept God's concoction was quite a while after the pregnancy would have occurred .. well into pregnancy such that the woman is showing - at least in some cases.

How can you quantify "little difference" when you don't have any verses to show what it is? It's called 'compare and contrast'.

So if we go by what God allows .. it is well past conception... and nothing about a coat hanger is relevant to this Biblical Truth.

Wait. . . where in the scriptures do you find this idea? I've read my Bible from cover to cover more than once and I have never read such a thing.

funny of God to slip that one in there don't you think .. truly "Inspired" -

Are you now trivializing the Word of God.

 

[Heyzeus]

This is known as dodging, ducking, obfuscating, avoiding and diverting. It won't work.



Who 'we'. I didn't discuss pornography with anyone.



Try to keep up. I have already answered your questions.

Zygote, fertilized egg cell that results from the union of a female gamete (egg, or ovum) with a male gamete (sperm). In the embryonic development of humans and other animals, the zygote stage is brief and is followed by cleavage, when the single cell becomes subdivided into smaller cells.


zygote

zygote An egg (ovum) that has been fertilized but has not yet undergone the first cleavage division. A zygote contains a complete (DIPLOID) set of chromosomes, half from ovum and half from the fertilizing sperm, and thus all the genetic code for a new individual. Collins Dictionary of Medicine © Robert M. Youngson 2004, 2005



I have presented scripture, you just don't like it. If I remember the scripture was called 'hilarious'. As far as a 'soul arriving', I can only ask you again, to tell me what this means. Where does this soul you are talking about come from. Does it make house calls, is it dropped like a stork. If you can't answer or explain what you are talking about, I can't help you.



Ask that question to your self. If you think I have used Ad Hom, you need to show where I did that.

I didn't make an accusation. I said in straight-forward manner that I don't believe your claim. You showed your ignorance (that means you are unaware of all the facts. It's not an insult), by not being able to understand the most basic information present in a zygote.

God is the creator of all things. You were created from two strands of DNA. One strand from your mother and one strand from your father. It contains all the information that is needed from a zygote to the most aged person until death.

I'll be waiting for those explanations!

1) Ad Hom is attacking the person rather than making a coherent argument .. you also engaged in Appeal to Authority fallacy on mass .. you started out with the "you don't know anything about biology" and subsequent gibberish.. then found out you are way down the food chain in comparison to my creds .... you asked for it .. and the cards fell where they did.

2) nowhere in your biological cutting and pasting of basic definitions - is not an argument for a zygote being a human. Volume of gibberish does not make that gibberish any less gibberish. You have not stated why X makes the zygote a human .. stating XXXXXX is not an argument for anything .. argument contains 2 parts .. 1) statement of claim 2) reasons that prove or show why that claim is true.

We all know a zygote has human DNA so does near every other human cell .. how does this make this the zygote a living human ... a Person.

You say "You showed Ignorance" .. ignorance of what .. ?? if you want to make call .. at least show where I showed ignorance. The reality is that this is Projection on your part ... Projection is a psychological defense mechanism in which individuals attribute characteristics they find unacceptable in themselves to another person.

We all know the zygote is a stage in the creation of a human ... OK So how does the process being at this stage - mean that

1) a living human exists - from a biological Perspective .. a Person from a Philosophical and bioethical perspective. You didn't even know that Philosophy was one of the subject matter domains .. and I am the ignorant one. Projection my dear.

2) that a soul has entered the fleshy cradle - from a religious perspective.

Still the same 2 questions .. and still without and explanation complete with the "Why"

There are 5 main scientific perspectives on "When human life Begins" - never mind when that life is a human.
Metabolic, Genetic, Embryological, Neurological , Ecological only one puts the beginning of human life .. at conception .. and while popular with the uninformed crowd .. aka general public ..this one has fallen out of favor among scientists for various reasons .. such as the twining argument and other things.

For you do claim scientific consensus .. you must 1) show that the Genetic Perspective is correct .. which means you have to refute the other 4 perspectives .. and now that you have proven human life exists .. prove that a living human ... a Person .. exists.

Have fun.

 

[Heyzeus]

ANYONE who agrees that it is acceptable to kill another human is profoundly wrong.

Almost everyone agrees that it is acceptable to kill another human being in certain circumstances .. and certainly the Bible is no exception.

But -- since there is no human that can be shown at the zygote stage .. no need to worry about it.