Where do people get the authority?

[MatthewG]

I was not stating what I believe, but what most seem to believe is not true. Most would say that no one of that generation saw Him coming in the clouds, so that is not actually true; and Him coming "soon" didn't seem to happen, so they say that is not actually true; and most don't believe that all that He described "must shortly take place", never took place "shortly."

Yeah some people call it the most embarrassing line in scripture.

I believe it did take place shorty.

The point was, you too have given Jesus a pass when it would appear the things He said did not come to pass, but you now have a double standard for anyone else saying something that cannot be proved by you seeing it come to pass.

Well who do I trust? Jesus, or you yourself? Should I place my faith in Joseph Smith? or ScottA?


I believe by faith. Does that personally bother you? I believe faithfully that in that generation he came.

I like how we have documented historical records at least of the destruction of Jerusalem.

I believe the church bride of Christ whom was governed by the Apostles, seen him come... faithfully.

Without evidence. That makes a lot of people mad, but people can't override "faith" and how one puts into practice.

Meanwhile, I have the answers to all that and more--from God, but you have this double standard keeping you from not receiving what is written as coming when the times are fulfilled...just like Israel did.

You have the answers from God. If you say so, I don't believe you do. I am not gonna put my faith in ScottA.

It's just that you are adamantly stating things you believe that are not true--while what is actually true was sealed and yet promised to come just before the end.

And if you knew where you were, you would not be "fine with it."

I believe by faith, man. If that upsets you, I don't know what to tell you. You're not gonna change my mind, Ive done made it up for myself.

 

[quietthinker]

Where do people get the authority?​

Truth is its own authority.

 

[ScottA]

You have the answers from God. If you say so, I don't believe you do. I am not gonna put my faith in ScottA.

I wouldn't expect you to. And God does give us a choice of whether or not to believe who He sends, and you have made your choice.

So be it.

 

[MatthewG]

I wouldn't expect you to. And God does give us a choice of whether or not to believe who He sends, and you have made your choice.

So be it.

Thank you, that is why I believe and trust Jesus, and God, and the Spirit of Christ which guides us to love our neighbor as ourself.

Love you! Thank you for the discussion.

 

[MatthewG]

Where do people get the authority?​

Truth is its own authority.

Hey QT, I am glad to see you chime in here and there. :)

I remember Jesus saying Verily alot.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Because from my understanding, there is no such scripture which a person can take the words written in the bible and make them for us today because the book was never written to us, in America for example, or Canada, or A specific person in a state.

That doesn't stop us from applying the lessons and principles intrinsic to the Books of the Bible, and receiving comfort, instruction, revelation, and correction from them.

Isa 52:6-9 Therefore My people shall know My name; Therefore they shall know in that day That I am He who speaks: 'Behold, it is I.' " (7) How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good things, Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, "Your God reigns!" (8) Your watchmen shall lift up their voices, With their voices they shall sing together; For they shall see eye to eye When the LORD brings back Zion. (9) Break forth into joy, sing together, You waste places of Jerusalem! For the LORD has comforted His people, He has redeemed Jerusalem.

 

[quietthinker]

Hey QT, I am glad to see you chime in here and there. :)

I remember Jesus saying Verily alot.

Yes, 'verily' is old English, it's all but faded from modern expressions. We might say, I tell you the truth.

 

[Lizbeth]

Thats all wonderful but the centuries that have passed since the time of Jesus were replete with heresy and error and without some authority to determine what is an error in teaching then you have nothing useful. I respectfully suggest you underplay what Jesus is telling Peter to fit a narrative.

In Matthews gospel chapter 16 Jesus tells Peter whatever he binds on earth will be bound in heaven whatever he looses on earth with be loosed in heaven. Jesus says the say thing to the apostles in chapter 18. What Jesus doesnt do in chapter 18 is give keys to the kingdom to the apostles, that was reserved for Peter in chapter 16.

Just want to add that we have the original apostles as well as Jesus with us today, through their teachings.......and the Holy Spirit. That God gives gifts to the church such as pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets, apostles and other gifts etc......in no way guarantees that they will be following or giving out correct doctrine or that Christians will recognize and accept it when someone has sound doctrine to try and impart to them. The church and the truth have been under siege and embattled since the beginning...we are in a war with all the messiness associated with war. And Christian growth is a very organic process, not cut and dried and neatly tied up with a bow as our flesh would like it to be.............God uses all these things that come against us and against the truth to test and try us.

Not tolerating and trusting in the sovereign rule of an invisible Head/King is why the Israelites demanded a flesh and blood king to rule them, like the world has. The carnal fleshly nature of man wants a man at the top to place to their trust in, to tell them what to believe and not believe, to be their protector and provider, but God says cursed is he who trusts in man and trusts in the arm of flesh.

 

[MatthewG]

That doesn't stop us from applying the lessons and principles intrinsic to the Books of the Bible, and receiving comfort, instruction, revelation, and correction from them.

There are many principles and lessons founded in the Bible. Yes. I would still say, that people need to be careful when they read it though, and make sure to keep things in context cause not everything in that bible is something that is directly to us today.

Many things can be found relative, but I would always caution people to be weary if the scriptures, or the ideas of other people start make people hate other people, become unforgiving, unmerciful, that they should throw those ideas away.

 

[MatthewG]

Just want to add that we have the original apostles as well as Jesus with us today, through their teachings.......and the Holy Spirit. That God gives gifts to the church such as pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets, apostles and other gifts etc......in no way guarantees that they will be following or giving out correct doctrine or that Christians will recognize and accept it when someone has sound doctrine to try and impart to them. The church and the truth have been under siege and embattled since the beginning...we are in a war with all the messiness associated with war. And Christian growth is a very organic process, not cut and dried and neatly tied up with a bow as our flesh would like it to be.............God uses all these things that come against us and against the truth to test and try us.

Not tolerating and trusting in the sovereign rule of an invisible Head/King is why the Israelites demanded a flesh and blood king to rule them, like the world has. The carnal fleshly nature of man wants a man at the top to place to their trust in, to tell them what to believe and not believe, to be their protector and provider, but God says cursed is he who trusts in man and trusts in the arm of flesh.

Hey Lizbeth,

I forget sometimes that Prophecy does not always mean foretelling the future.

It's not solely about predicting the future, but also about speaking God's truth, offering encouragement, and guiding others. This gift is described as a way to strengthen, encourage, and console believers, and to build up the church.

While I do believe the Church Bride of Christ has already been taken. Believer continue to benefit from what has been left here for us to learn from, just as @Stumpmaster shared.

I can see how this can apply today by and through only -- The Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ, to convey a message perhaps founded within the contents of the bible itself, though it is not always about predicting the future.


When it comes down to reading the Bible, the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ is needed at least in my opinion.

Sometimes you can read a section of scripture and mole it around in your mind and perhaps get a message from reading the book as well, but it has to align with the Spirit itself.


John 4:23

But the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.



Ive heard it time and time again, that living in faith, and by the Spirit of Christ is essential for all people who seek to worship Yahavah/God in spirit and in truth. Jesus stated that is what his Father looks for.

 

[Lizbeth]

Good test--for Israel--maybe. But no, not for Sodom (spiritually Jerusalem), for then it was too late.

To the contrary, we are to test every spirit, and take warning--for in spite of all that is false, God has also included what is true--which was to continue as it began with Peter receiving the knowledge that Jesus was the Christ--to continue on throughout the building of His church.

But, that is more general to the entire church age. However, there was also to come near the end: the revealing of things sealed and held under restraint for every previous generation. Which indeed was prophesied, but also to be fulfilled. This is what we should be expecting. Have you expected it?

Only the Christ and Lamb of God was found worthy among men (being both God and man) to open the seals and both reveal and fulfill what was written. I wonder if the restrainer being taken away also means His Spirit will be given without restraint (without measure) to His faithful people in the end....?...as conscripts in the final battle....? This scripture below makes me wonder, and I believe the book of Esther may be a picture of how it will go in the end.....Haman as Antichrist and God's people armed to the teeth and loosed to fight in the battle arrayed against them.

Mal 4:1-3

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[Lizbeth]

Hey Lizbeth,

I forget sometimes that Prophecy does not always mean foretelling the future.

It's not solely about predicting the future, but also about speaking God's truth, offering encouragement, and guiding others. This gift is described as a way to strengthen, encourage, and console believers, and to build up the church.

While I do believe the Church Bride of Christ has already been taken. Believer continue to benefit from what has been left here for us to learn from, just as @Stumpmaster shared.

I can see how this can apply today by and through only -- The Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ, to convey a message perhaps founded within the contents of the bible itself, though it is not always about predicting the future.


When it comes down to reading the Bible, the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ is needed at least in my opinion.

Sometimes you can read a section of scripture and mole it around in your mind and perhaps get a message from reading the book as well, but it has to align with the Spirit itself.


John 4:23

But the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.



Ive heard it time and time again, that living in faith, and by the Spirit of Christ is essential for all people who seek to worship Yahavah/God in spirit and in truth. Jesus stated that is what his Father looks for.

Amen....I hear what you're saying. Things prophesied are sometimes conveying spiritual lessons, not always future history. Although some of it is future, because the Holy Spirit does show us things to come. How much of scripture is on a personal level and how much is corporate in a historical sense I am still trying to "rightly divide." And sometimes I believe it might be speaking on both levels at once. Where it says "night cometh when no man can work" I believe is on a personal level and referring to the time of death, but it's possible it's at the same time referring also to the level of darkness that is coming to the world...a famine for the word of God. Where you mentioned the end is referring to our death, I believe you are right or partially right, depending on whether there might ALSO be future or past historical fulfillments as well.

To my understanding thus far, some things were fulfilled as concerned Israel in 70AD, as Jesus prophesied in Matt 18. But some things still await their fulfillment. I am looking at it (subject to continual testing) that just about everything written is to the Jew first, then the Gentile (nations). Some things were physically/historically to the Jew first, then spiritually to the Gentile. God hasn't judged the world yet, or the apostate church...and I believe there are hints that unbelieving Israel will be judged a second time. If so, unbelieving Israel will be judged in the end again, at the same time as the world or just before it. Just an airing of thoughts here, and hope it doesn't confuse anyone. One problem is when we get our heads full of "teachings" of man it literally blinds us to what is simply and clearly stated in scripture.....that to me is proof and evidence (not that I needed it) of the spiritual nature of this war against truth that comes against us. But also we very much need to seek and wait for God to give us light and illuminate the scriptures to us on any given theme or subject....we're seeing through a glass darkly and only know in part.

 

[MatthewG]

.I hear what you're saying. Things prophesied are sometimes conveying spiritual lessons, not always future history. Although some of it is future, because the Holy Spirit does show us things to come. How much of scripture is on a personal level and how much is corporate in a historical sense I am still trying to "rightly divide." And sometimes I believe it might be speaking on both levels at once. Where it says "night cometh when no man can work" I believe is on a personal level and referring to the time of death, but it's possible it's at the same time referring also to the level of darkness that is coming to the world...a famine for the word of God. Where you mentioned the end is referring to our death, I believe you are right or partially right, depending on whether there might ALSO be future or past historical fulfillments as well.

To my understanding thus far, some things were fulfilled as concerned Israel in 70AD, as Jesus prophesied in Matt 18. But some things still await their fulfillment. I am looking at it (subject to continual testing) that just about everything written is to the Jew first, then the Gentile (nations). Some things were physically/historically to the Jew first, then spiritually to the Gentile. God hasn't judged the world yet, or the apostate church...and I believe there are hints that unbelieving Israel will be judged a second time. If so, unbelieving Israel will be judged in the end again, at the same time as the world or just before it. Just an airing of thoughts here, and hope it doesn't confuse anyone. One problem is when we get our heads full of "teachings" of man it literally blinds us to what is simply and clearly stated in scripture.....that to me is proof and evidence (not that I needed it) of the spiritual nature of this war against truth that comes against us. But also we very much need to seek and wait for God to give us light and illuminate the scriptures to us on any given theme or subject....we're seeing through a glass darkly and only know in part.

I had to condense this down, Lizbeth.

Exploring Prophecy and Scripture: A Summary

• Dual Layers of Meaning: Prophetic scripture can convey spiritual lessons and historical or future events—sometimes both at once.
• Personal vs. Corporate Interpretation: You’re discerning how much of scripture speaks individually versus corporately, believing that some verses (e.g., “night cometh when no man can work”) refer to personal death and global spiritual darkness.
• Partial Fulfillment & Ongoing Revelation: Events like 70 AD were fulfilled physically for Israel, but some prophecies await future fulfillment. You see a pattern of messages going to the Jew first, then the Gentile—physically, then spiritually.
• Future Judgment: You sense that unbelieving Israel may face future judgment alongside or prior to the world and apostate church.
• Warning Against Man-Made Teachings: Man’s interpretations can obscure divine truth, reinforcing the need for spiritual discernment and divine illumination.
• Ongoing Journey: You're committed to testing, seeking, and growing—acknowledging that we only see part of the truth for now (“through a glass darkly”).

Would this summarize it correctly?

 

[MatthewG]

I believe all things have been fulfilled.

Jesus overcame all things and handed all things back to his Father, and sat down with his father.

I don't get where people just split it all out, when the content and context are a whole.

But alas to each their own.

 

[nedsk]

Jesus also told Peter elsewhere to "feed my lambs".....Does that mean only Peter and his "successors" could feed the lambs?

where did I suggest that? The discussion is about authority, not who should feed the lambs. how does anyone know that what they believe is faithful to what teaches if there is no authority? Please dont say its in scripture

 

[nedsk]

Just want to add that we have the original apostles as well as Jesus with us today, through their teachings.......and the Holy Spirit. That God gives gifts to the church such as pastors, teachers, evangelists, prophets, apostles and other gifts etc......in no way guarantees that they will be following or giving out correct doctrine or that Christians will recognize and accept it when someone has sound doctrine to try and impart to them. The church and the truth have been under siege and embattled since the beginning...we are in a war with all the messiness associated with war. And Christian growth is a very organic process, not cut and dried and neatly tied up with a bow as our flesh would like it to be.............God uses all these things that come against us and against the truth to test and try us.

Not tolerating and trusting in the sovereign rule of an invisible Head/King is why the Israelites demanded a flesh and blood king to rule them, like the world has. The carnal fleshly nature of man wants a man at the top to place to their trust in, to tell them what to believe and not believe, to be their protector and provider, but God says cursed is he who trusts in man and trusts in the arm of flesh.

Immediately following the patristic era the early church fathers battled false teachings and heresies. Have you ever read the early church fathers? If you have you might have seen a common thread running through their teachings. Its been my experience though that lots of people have very little knowledge of the early church fathers even though they give us the best picture of what the earliest days of Christianity was like.

 

[ScottA]

Only the Christ and Lamb of God was found worthy among men (being both God and man) to open the seals and both reveal and fulfill what was written. I wonder if the restrainer being taken away also means His Spirit will be given without restraint (without measure) to His faithful people in the end....?...as conscripts in the final battle....? This scripture below makes me wonder, and I believe the book of Esther may be a picture of how it will go in the end.....Haman as Antichrist and God's people armed to the teeth and loosed to fight in the battle arrayed against them.

Mal 4:1-3

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Yes, the full measure of Christ is unto His body.

The Restrainer is God Himself, but because the restraints come in the form of wickedness and confusion (even that confusion upon all language), His identity is not named as God--for He is not in the evil though He has ordained it all, both the good and the evil, the darkness and the light.

 

[MatthewG]

Where do people get the authority?

To proclaim that when they read the bible, it is addressed directly too themselves?


Consider the following example;

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;




People forget that real and living breathing people were alive. Being written to.


Therefore how can a person get the authority to assign it to themselves as though it was written to them directly today?