Where Does Denial of Scripture About Hell Originate?

[BibleScribe]

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DANIEL 12:2-3

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. (3) Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

This text speaks of two resurrections – the resurrection of the righteous to everlasting life, and the resurrection of the unrighteous to shame and everlasting contempt. Please notice how this text clearly states that only the righteous will be resurrected to everlasting life. “Life” here is the Hebrew word chay (the equivalent of the Greek zoe as shown in Chapter Four) which simply means “living thing” or the state of being “alive” (Vine 138). This is the very same Hebrew word used to describe the “breath of life” that God breathed into Adam to animate him (Genesis 2:7) and the “breath of life” of animals as well (Genesis 6:17; 7:15,22). This “life” is spoken of in the bible as the express opposite of death (Deuteronomy 30:19; 32:39). My point is that there’s nothing profound or mystical about the word “life” here. It simply refers to life, the state of being alive – the condition of simple conscious existence. According to the above text only one class of humanity, the righteous, will be resurrected unto everlasting life.

What about the class of humanity that is resurrected unto “shame and everlasting contempt?” Well, one thing’s for sure, we know that they are not resurrected for the purpose of being granted life, because only the righteous will be resurrected for this purpose, the text makes this very clear. The resurrection of the unrighteous is a resurrection of shame because they are resurrected for the express purpose of judgment and condemnation. As Jesus declared:
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LOL,

Just to examine the comment on this one verse, one should ask, -- why is the shame and contempt "everlasting", if it's only for the duration of judgment and condemnation? Is this like Judge Judy, who occasionally rambles -- like for ~eternity~? LOL

Or maybe because there is no "time" dimension in heaven, this brief process feels like ~eternity~ but it's really only a short time. -- Kinda like waiting for the wife to get ready for church. LOL

But I would argue that when people twist Scripture to achieve their personal doctrines, with wordy excuses why they're right, -- it's like eternity. ROFL



So maybe hell isn't eternal, -- it only feel like it because of lengthy arguments by doctrinally driven individuals. PMUOTF [pick me up off the floor] :)


BibleScribe

 

[Insight]

LOL, Just to examine the comment on this one verse, one should ask, -- why is the shame and contempt "everlasting", if it's only for the duration of judgment and condemnation? Is this like Judge Judy, who occasionally rambles -- like for ~eternity~? LOL Or maybe because there is no "time" dimension in heaven, this brief process feels like ~eternity~ but it's really only a short time. -- Kinda like waiting for the wife to get ready for church. LOL But I would argue that when people twist Scripture to achieve their personal doctrines, with wordy excuses why they're right, -- it's like eternity. ROFL So maybe hell isn't eternal, -- it only feel like it because of lengthy arguments by doctrinally driven individuals. PMUOTF [pick me up off the floor] :) BibleScribe

BibleScribe

I have read through your LOL's and found your response EOS (empty of substance).

Do you actually have an understanding on Dan 12? or just a meaningless critique? Maybe next time you can bring THS (The Holy Scriptures) in hand.

Lets see

shall we...

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky has taken a dangerous stance in deriding other Christian groups.

Insight

Dangerous? Why? If there's no eternal Hell?

I wonder how many JW's and SDA's are in this thread. I thought the forum was for Christians.

 

[Duckybill]

How sad that the NT has warned us so many times of the eternal punishment in the fire and Satan has blinded some here to the fact that they are headed straight for the fire. We can't say we weren't warned.

 

[veteran]

I find it very strange that a Christian would claim our Heavenly Father is merciful, and yet at the same time think that He would cause those who go into the "lake of fire" to burn forever without ever being consumed.

This verse is often wildly misinterpreted...

Rev 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(KJV)

What is it there that "ascendeth up for ever and ever"?

What relation does the idea of 'rest' have in Christ's coming Kingdom? If those have not 'rest', but those in Christ Jesus do, just what is that 'rest'?

 

[Duckybill]

I find it very strange that a Christian would claim our Heavenly Father is merciful, and yet at the same time think that He would cause those who go into the "lake of fire" to burn forever without ever being consumed.

He is merciful, to those who repent. He proved throughout the Bible that He can be VERY harsh. I.E. drowning everyone on Earth but 8.

This verse is often wildly misinterpreted...

Rev 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(KJV)

What is it there that "ascendeth up for ever and ever"?

What relation does the idea of 'rest' have in Christ's coming Kingdom? If those have not 'rest', but those in Christ Jesus do, just what is that 'rest'?

FOREVER is consistent with the NT.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

God is not going to bless the wicked by destroying them forever.

 

[Insight]

I find it very strange that a Christian would claim our Heavenly Father is merciful, and yet at the same time think that He would cause those who go into the "lake of fire" to burn forever without ever being consumed.

This verse is often wildly misinterpreted...

Rev 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(KJV)

What is it there that "ascendeth up for ever and ever"?

What relation does the idea of 'rest' have in Christ's coming Kingdom? If those have not 'rest', but those in Christ Jesus do, just what is that 'rest'?

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

We have dealt with this already Veteran? around post #274 & #337

We all know Babylon the Great suffers the same fate as Sodom but on a much greater scale. As the smoke of Sodom "went up" in the sight of Abraham (See Gen 19:28) so will it be in these days. The question for you Veteran "will you be the saint to watch the smoke of Babylon rise?"

Or is it too late?

Your "forever" comment please read post #337

The rest is from the works of the flesh and from thier labours.

Yea, saith the Spirit that they may rest from their labours Rev 14:13

In the future age we will be shown a true sabbath rest See Heb 4:9 but this will not be one of idleness, but of joyous co-operation with the Lord, as is suggested by the word used in Matt 11:29.

Insight

p.s Veteran, refrain from going outside the boundaries of the Word. All the examples have been given for your learning and there is no need at all to event the supernatural. 1 Cor 10:11 *Rom 15:4

 

[veteran]

The idea that it's the 'smoke' of their torment that rises forever, and not their 'torment' aligns with the Psalms 37 Scripture, and many others that declare a full destruction of Satan and the wicked in the future "lake of fire" event.

The 'rest' is indeed about Christ's Rest that begins for His saints at the start of His future Millennium reign. Those not of the 1st resurrection will not have that "rest" during Christ's thousand years reign with His elect. But those not in that 'rest' won't be in the lake of fire yet either.

One of the problems we face with this verse is that few remember when reading it that the "lake of fire" event doesn't even occur until AFTER Christ's Millennium, as written in Rev.20. The KJV translators put a colon: to separate two ideas there in Rev.14:11. Those still subject to the "second death" during Christ's "thousand years" will have no rest day or night. And then the going into the "lake of fire" with the "smoke" of their torment rising forever can only be for AFTER the "thousand years" reign of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Duckybill]

The idea that it's the 'smoke' of their torment that rises forever, and not their 'torment' aligns with the Psalms 37 Scripture, and many others that declare a full destruction of Satan and the wicked in the future "lake of fire" event.

Guess you missed this:

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Insight]

The idea that it's the 'smoke' of their torment that rises forever, and not their 'torment' aligns with the Psalms 37 Scripture, and many others that declare a full destruction of Satan and the wicked in the future "lake of fire" event.

The irony in your conclusion is this. If these words had been written about the Sodom event, you would not have drawn to this error. Your quote of Psalm 37 which was written by David in his older years, while looking back at all the evil he encountered, does nothing to support your eternal torment theory.

I have noticed how you glance across a chapter assuming an understanding but rarely will you actually enter the Word? Why?

The 'rest' is indeed about Christ's Rest that begins for His saints at the start of His future Millennium reign. Those not of the 1st resurrection will not have that "rest" during Christ's thousand years reign with His elect. But those not in that 'rest' won't be in the lake of fire yet either.

We agree here!

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night

Question:

Veteran, these people cited in Rev 14:11...are they dead or alive?

 

[veteran]

Guess you missed this:

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It would take me forever to list all the Scriptures you've missed, including this one...

Ezek 28:18
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(KJV)

The irony in your conclusion is this. If these words had been written about the Sodom event, you would not have drawn to this error. Your quote of Psalm 37 which was written by David in his older years, while looking back at all the evil he encountered, does nothing to support your eternal torment theory.

I have noticed how you glance across a chapter assuming an understanding but rarely will you actually enter the Word? Why?



We agree here!

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night

Question:

Veteran, these people cited in Rev 14:11...are they dead or alive?

If you had paid more attention to my post, you would have realized I'm NOT preaching eternal 'torment', but eternally 'destroyed', like the Psalms 37 Scripture states, which is a 'prophetic' Scripture about the lake of fire event.

David also was a 'prophet'; not all things he was given to write were just about his own life and history. David being given prophetic details of Christ's crucifixion a thousand years before it would happen easily proves that.

I fail to see the relevance of your 'glance' the scriptures idea. I cover God's Word line upon line, just not here much, since most here haven't been taught to do it.

 

[veteran]

Question:

Veteran, these people cited in Rev 14:11...are they dead or alive?

They are 'spiritually' dead. They are the "resurrection of damnation" that also occurs at Christ's second coming, which He revealed in John 5:28-29. They are the resurrection of the "unjust" that Apostle Paul mentioned he had a hope for in Acts 24:15.

An example?


Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

This Rev.3:9 event has NEVER happened yet in this present world. The "synagogue of Satan" is a direct reference to Christ's enemies here on earth. They have still yet to 'bow' in worship to Christ Jesus today, but, they will. It will occur DURING Christ's future "thousand years" reign. The reason they bow at the feet of Christ's elect there, is because those elect will be in Christ's Presence then, as per the Zadok (Just) of Ezek.44.

That event reveals... those of Satan's servants will be conscious during the coming Millennium, and not literaly dead in a grave somewhere. It stands a proof that the wicked are raised at Christ's second coming too, but are still subject to the "second death" lake of fire event later.

 

[Duckybill]

It would take me forever to list all the Scriptures you've missed, including this one...

Ezek 28:18
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
(KJV)

VAGUE at best, as compared to this perfectly clear Scripture.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Bible uses the terms FOREVER, ETERNAL, EVERLASTING, UNQUENCHABLE over and over, for very good reason. We will be held accountable for not warning the lost of their HORRIBLE fate. God is not going to bless the wicked by destroying them. They will wish He destroyed them. God is going to cast them into the ETERNAL FIRE alive. Why would He show mercy after casting them into the fire alive???

 

[veteran]

VAGUE at best, as compared to this perfectly clear Scripture.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Bible uses the terms FOREVER, ETERNAL, EVERLASTING, UNQUENCHABLE over and over, for very good reason. We will be held accountable for not warning the lost of their HORRIBLE fate. God is not going to bless the wicked by destroying them. They will wish He destroyed them. God is going to cast them into the ETERNAL FIRE alive. Why would He show mercy after casting them into the fire alive???

If you can't understand that Ezek.28:18 Scripture, you won't understand the Rev.20:10 verse either.

 

[Duckybill]

If you can't understand that Ezek.28:18 Scripture, you won't understand the Rev.20:10 verse either.

Oh please.

 

[veteran]

Oh please.

I'm serious. It's because Satan was given power of death (Heb.14:2), and with his destruction death will be destroyed too (Rev.20:14-15).

 

[Duckybill]

I'm serious. It's because Satan was given power of death (Heb.14:2), and with his destruction death will be destroyed too (Rev.20:14-15).

Your claim is that God is going to be merciful to the lost. And yet He's going to cast them into the fire alive. That's not consistent.

 

[veteran]

Your claim is that God is going to be merciful to the lost. And yet He's going to cast them into the fire alive. That's not consistent.

Allowing souls to burn forever is not a show of God's Mercy. That's why He going to destroy Satan and those who refuse Him and His Son once for all eternity.

Figured out the Ezek.28:18 Scripture yet? I assure you, it would be to your benefit.

 

[Duckybill]

Allowing souls to burn forever is not a show of God's Mercy.

Of course not. His mercy will end for the lost. He can do whatever He chooses.

That's why He going to destroy Satan and those who refuse Him and His Son once for all eternity.

Figured out the Ezek.28:18 Scripture yet? I assure you, it would be to your benefit.

I am well aware of Ezk 28. It's also talking about the "prince of Tyre".

"Ezekiel 28:2 (NKJV)
2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

You cannot take VAGUE OT Scriptures and overrule perfectly clear NT Scriptures.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[veteran]

Of course not. His mercy will end for the lost. He can do whatever He chooses.

I am well aware of Ezk 28. It's also talking about the "prince of Tyre".

"Ezekiel 28:2 (NKJV)
2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,' Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god

You cannot take VAGUE OT Scriptures and overrule perfectly clear NT Scriptures.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Not a vague Scripture at all, for one who simply heeds it as written...

Ezek 28:12-14
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(KJV)


If one tries to remove the 12th verse apart from the 13th verse, no object for "Thou" would exist. That's how to know the "Thou" in verse 13 is pointing back to the one mentioned in verse 12, i.e., "the king of Tyrus". That's simple grammar, whether in the English there, or in the original Hebrew.

In verse 13, we're told that one was in God's garden of Eden. Because of that, we know God cannot mean a flesh king named Tyrus, for no flesh king named Tyrus was ever in God's garden of Eden, period.

Verse 14 also reveals God is not speaking of some mere flesh king, for an "anointed cherub" is a heavenly order being, not a flesh man. God is speaking of Satan while using the king of Tyrus title to point to Satan. Why that king of Tyrus title? It's because the name 'Tyrus' means 'rock', and Satan is the false "rock" of Deut.32:31.

Why is Satan a false "rock" per Deut.32:31? It's because that was Satan's sin in the beginning in coveting God's Throne for himself. God covers that point too, but using the title of "prince of Tyrus" in the previous verses there.