Where does the Bible say...

[Illuminator]

All believers have access to grace, but not all believers are ordained to teach. It's not in the Bible.

 

[amadeus]

All believers have access to grace, but not all believers are ordained to teach. It's not in the Bible.

Indeed, rather this:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:11-13

 

[BarneyFife]

Hi B5,

Of the Ten Commandments the Sabbath commandment is the only ceremonial commandment. The other 9 are moral commandments. A ceremonial rule (commandment) can be changed; a moral rule (commandment) can not be changed! You can hold a ceremony on any day. Jesus never commanded Christians to change the day so there is no "different commandment". The fact that Jesus rebukes too severe an interpretation of Sabbath law (Lk. 13:10–16, 14:1–5; Jn. 5:9–18, 7:22) suggests that the he was not pleased with the way that the Sabbath was being observed.

Who was given the authority to bind and loosen?

Mary

Hi Mary,

What you have so kindly said sounds good and sound (no pun intended). But I'm just a mere mortal, with finite understanding. I have to take my spiritual cues from a higher power. You seem to have, either from birth and/or on your own judgment, decided to follow the Papal system of religion. (Please forgive my elementary expression.) I have, at the time of my adult youth, decided to follow what was presented to me as a strictly Bible-based faith. We all like to pride ourselves on being self-made people, having thought out our various and conflicting philosophies carefully. But, to a greater sense than we usually care to admit, it just ain't generally so. I admit that I didn't have to do much pioneering study to arrive at what I believe today. I've learned a few things just between God and myself, but most of it was done for me and served up pretty tidily. And it sure did (and still does) make a lot of sense to me.

We could argue about which of our faiths is better. We would probably/inevitably insult each other along the way. I'd rather not. These days, I'm finding that it's just foolish to try to urge one's beliefs upon folks who clearly don't want to hear/read it. I believe a lot of things that would probably offend you if I emphasized them. I'll tell you one thing quite frankly, though, which may or may not surprise you. I sincerely believe that God has His people in every part of the world of faith. By "His people" I mean people who love Him the best way they know how. I also believe that, overwhelmingly, most of the Christians who are redeemed for the new heavens and earth (spoken of in Isaiah 66:22) will have died Catholics. I also believe that no matter what faith we practiced during our natural lives, none of us will be saved for our pure doctrine, but for allowing God to purify our hearts. And, finally, I believe that regardless of our ignorance of true orthodoxy, in the end, what will have saved us will be absolute truth as it is in Jesus, despite our ignorance to it.

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary,...none of us will be saved for our pure doctrine,

Thank you B5 for your heartfelt response. There are many things in it that I agree with.

Do you think that your stated belief, of which I quoted, are at odds with the following passages:

1 Timothy 4:16: Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 2:1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


Curious mary

 

[BarneyFife]

Thank you B5 for your heartfelt response. There are many things in it that I agree with.

Do you think that your stated belief, of which I quoted, are at odds with the following passages:

1 Timothy 4:16: Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Titus 2:1 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.


Curious mary

Hi Mary,

I would answer: Only if extracted from the context of

in the end, what will have saved us will be absolute truth as it is in Jesus, despite our ignorance to it.

Although I probably should have said:

"despite the degree of our ignorance to it."

I read recently that there are now 40,000 different Christian denominations in the world. That might be a stretch. But for the sake of argument, lets say 40,000. To me, it would stand to reason that 1 of the 40,000 would have to be closer to ultimate orthodoxy than the other 39,999. The question to me would be: How much closer? Since the identity of the 1 remains to be seen or, at least, agreed upon. The question we're avoiding is: Am I a remember of the 1? The truth is: Don't we all hope so?

By the way, I'm sure you realize there are stronger statements of dogmatism than the ones you provided. (I'm not offended by addressing them--I just don't want to even appear to be condemning anyone for their convictions).

For example:

But even after we had suffered before and were spitefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we were bold in our God to speak to you the gospel of God in much conflict. (1 Thessalonians 2:2)​

You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22)​

And so the question becomes: How do we recognize the time/place for such bold statements?

The best answer I can come up with is that we must have unction from the Holy Spirit and much prayer and devotion to support our judgment. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that not everyone who takes to a keyboard to blast out his/her thoughts on religion qualifies in such regard.

Let everyone be convinced in his/her own mind, eh?

 

[JunChosen]

Which group has the testimony of Christ? Which group is made up of faithful servants?

Don't you know? It's the elect of course!

Your theory is lacking logic. After all if there is no authoritative panel of experts to decide these things that effect our salvation then how can you be on this forum telling the Catholics they are wrong in everything they believe and tell your Protestant brothers/sisters on here they are wrong in some of the things they believe????? Or are YOU the panel of experts??

Why God enlightens some and not others is His business. Mk. 4:34

whose mouth does that interpretation come out of?

That's the problem...interpretation. 2 Pe. 1:20-21

Should I not trust the words that came out of the mouth of Calvin or Luther or anyone who has a different interpretation than you??? After all, they said they were spoken to by God also....

Again, "holy men of God spoke..."

Who was given the authority to bind and loosen?

Not only to Peter for sure as @Behold explained. Many people do not understand the meaning of Mt. 16:19. This verse must be read/expounded by someone who understands Greek.

The term, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" and according to the Greek language should be rendered this way: "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall having been bound in heaven:"
And likewise with with the word loose... "whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall having been loosed in heaven."
The prior action is in heaven, you see.

@Behold is from Israel ask him if I'm correct.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

All believers have access to grace, but not all believers are ordained to teach. It's not in the Bible.

Are you sure it's Not in the Bible??!! What about Matthew 28:19-20?

When believers go out to witness for Christ in the world, are they not teaching the word?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Brakelite]

Hey Backlit,

Interesting list of if's. If you were right about all those if's that would be One (John 17:10–11) powerful Church with authority to decide who is right and who is wrong and who can be shunned by The Church (Matthew 18:17, Titus 3:10, Romans 16:17). A Church that gave man the authority by Christ to forgive sins (John 20:23) would be One powerful Church. A Church that decides with the guidance of the Holy Spirit what you must believe/practice as a Christian (Acts 15) would be One authoritative Church. A Church with men that are supposed to hold fast to the doctrine they were taught so that they may save themselves and the people who hear them (1 Timothy 4:16) would be One authoritative Church. A Church that has teachers that can save you would be one powerful Church that would have been started by Christ with him as it's head.

But there is no Church like that.....is there Backlit?

Bible study Mary

There is a church like that...
KJV Revelation 18:7
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

 

[Marymog]

Don't you know? It's the elect of course!

Soooo FINALLY we agree...anyone that adheres to Catholic doctrine, which are of course the elect, is the group that adhere to the testimony of Christ.....

 

[ReChoired]

Hi ReChoired,

Malo.

Soooo when God interprets Scripture thru you

No. Please go back and read what I stated. I did not say God interprets "thru" (sic) me. Not even once. I said God interprets God. It's "in" the word itself. It is not "in" me. ...

I do really desire you to understand this position. You do not need me. At all.

 

[Illuminator]

“Binding and loosing” is a phrase which comes from the rabbis. It refers to the authority to make decisions binding on the people of God.

This authority includes interpreting and applying the Word of God and admitting people to and excommunicating them from the community of faith. For the Jews this meant the community of Israel. For Christians this means the Church.

In Matthew 16:19 Jesus gives this authority over his Church to Peter: “Whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

In Matthew 18:18, he gives the power to all the apostles: “Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

This singling out of Peter to bestow on him an authority which is later to be given to all the apostles shows Peter’s preeminence within the apostolic college. What the apostles as a whole possessed as leaders of the Church, Peter possessed as an individual.

Of course, he, as the earthly head of the Church, also possessed powers which all the other apostles, even collectively, didn’t possess: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Mt 16:19).

 

[BarneyFife]

@Behold is from Israel ask him if I'm correct.

Sure. Everybody knows people from Israel know lotsa Greek.

 

[Illuminator]

The term, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" and according to the Greek language should be rendered this way: "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall having been bound in heaven:"
And likewise with with the word loose... "whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall having been loosed in heaven."
The prior action is in heaven, you see.

No, it does not. The original Greek does not twist Jesus' words. Clearly, Jesus said "whatsoever you bind on earth" is the prior action.

Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν· ὅσα ἐὰν δήσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένα ἐν οὐρανῷ, καὶ ὅσα ἐὰν λύσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένα ἐν οὐρανῷ.
"Truly I say to you, whatever (1)you bind on earth (2)shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever (1)you loose on earth (2)shall have been loosed in heaven.

There is no mention of binding/loosing in heaven as a prior action.

Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because “binding and loosing” are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

Matt. 5:14 – Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Acts 5:3 – Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

 

[Brakelite]

Quote ...backlit.... Do you know the meaning of the word Antichrist?

thank you. Yes, I do.

Then you would understand the Jesus stands in three distinct ministerial roles, and they are spoken of in a discussion between Jesus and the Pharisees. We can read of this exchange in Matthew 12 and 13.
Matthew 12:4 Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
The temple to the Jews was the centerpiece of their worship. Everything they believed in revolved around the temple, the festivals and holy days, its rituals and services, its priesthood. (Sound familiar?) But Jesus claimed to be even greater than the temple, which would have included everything within the temple, eg the law and the very High Priest who would no doubt have heard a report on these words, if he wasn't there in person. Jesus the true High Priest Who is now serving before the Father in the true heavenly temple/sanctuary in the company of angels. There is where our faith is to be focused on. There, in heaven, is where all plans are laid, and are carried out through the ministry of angels here on earth. There, and no where else, is where all authority finds its source and center. There is only one who can be greater than the law of God...the Lawgiver.
Matt. 13:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Here the Jews are seeking a sign. They want miracles and proofs of Jesus claims. They don't want the truth, all they want is to trap Jesus into failure. To destroy His reputation. To relegate Jesus into someone undesirable, unworthy, untruthful, and below their own sense of self righteous dignity. They were simply wanting to protect their own exalted positions of power. (Sound familiar?) But Jesus claimed a stature greater than Jonah, who everyone must admit had a very successful evangelism campaign. Thus Jesus was a greater Prophet than Jonah.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

People came from all the known world to hear Solomon. Ambassadors, Kings and Queens, Presidents, Prime Ministers and leaders of world churches are lining up at the door of the Vatican to seek the favour of the Pope. Even you and others on this forum admit that salvation is impossible without Papal approval. Yet Jesus is here claiming greater Kingship even than the greatest of old testament kings. I would suggest that Jesus is greater than even the Pope, but sadly, Catholics are content to trust a man's institution for their salvation. Jesus is the true High Priest, the true Prophet, the true King of Kings. The Papal system has placed the Pope on that exalted throne, which makes that system the Antichrist...that which replaces Christ with a counterfeit.

Bible study Backlit.

 

[Brakelite]

Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν· ὅσα ἐὰν δήσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένα ἐν οὐρανῷ, καὶ ὅσα ἐὰν λύσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένα ἐν οὐρανῷ.
"Truly I say to you, whatever (1)you bind on earth (2)shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever (1)you loose on earth (2)shall have been loosed in heaven.

Do you read your own posts...do you need an editor perhaps?
"Whatsoever you bind on earth"...present tense..."shall have been bound in heaven"...past tense.
"Whatsoever you loose on earth"...present tense..."shall have been loosed in heaven"...past tense.

 

[BarneyFife]

Do you read your own posts...do you need an editor perhaps?
"Whatsoever you bind on earth"...present tense..."shall have been bound in heaven"...past tense.
"Whatsoever you loose on earth"...present tense..."shall have been loosed in heaven"...past tense.

I gotta say, that's exactly what I thought. Wow. Barely believable.

 

[Illuminator]

"shall have" or "shall be" is not past tense in any language. But it manages to find its way into the language of those who have issues with biblical authority.
The Seat of Moses did not expire after Moses died, the rabbis had binding and loosing authority. It was sanctified and transferred to Peter and the Apostles. The groundwork was already there. The followers were Jews and understood full well what Jesus was talking about.

Without a Jewish perspective on the meaning of "binding and loosing", your lost. Worse, heaven becomes a dictator, giving explicit directives over rules of conduct because ordained leaders have no authority. That's insane.

 

[Brakelite]

"shall have" or "shall be" is not past tense in any language.

True. "shall have" is not past tense...Very true. We're beaten....oh wait, no. "shall have been" is past tense, in any language. Which makes everything that follows...

But it manages to find its way into the language of those who have issues with biblical authority.
The Seat of Moses did not expire after Moses died, the rabbis had binding and loosing authority. It was sanctified and transferred to Peter and the Apostles. The groundwork was already there. The followers were Jews and understood full well what Jesus was talking about.

Without a Jewish perspective on the meaning of "binding and loosing", your lost. Worse, heaven becomes a dictator, giving explicit directives over rules of conduct because ordained leaders have no authority. That's insane.

Twaffle.

 

[Marymog]

The term, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" and according to the Greek language should be rendered this way: "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall having been bound in heaven:"
And likewise with with the word loose... "whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall having been loosed in heaven."
The prior action is in heaven, you see.

To God Be The Glory

Hi JunChosen,

I have heard this argument before and I am still kind of 50-50 on it. When I search that verse it does show some translations the way you suggested but most translations don't show it that way.

None the less it makes no difference because the outcome is the same: The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit when they bind/loosen (ex. Council of Jerusalem) which means that God really makes the decision, not The Church.

And your little rabbit trail did not address the original question that was asked to B5 and not you. Sooooo would you like to answer the question or go down another rabbit trail: Who was given the authority to bind and loosen?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Malo.

No. Please go back and read what I stated. I did not say God interprets "thru" (sic) me. Not even once. I said God interprets God. It's "in" the word itself. It is not "in" me. ...

I do really desire you to understand this position. You do not need me. At all.

Lol.....I don't need to go back and read what you stated. I know you never said that "you interpret Scripture". Your playing a word game and that's fine. Your saying that Scripture is interpreted by the Holy Spirit thru you which means I should believe every word that comes out of your mouth when you believe the Holy Spirit is working thru you.

Thank you for your time....Mary

PS.....Malo???