Where does the Pope get his authority?

[Phoneman777]

No, sorry Christ is the Rock and it is shown all through the Bible.

Bro, catholics don't care about Biblical consistency, else they'd cease to be catholics.

 

[Brakelite]

I don't care what day of the week you call Monday. But I do care that people know who Jesus is. And it's pagan to think he has 3 heads.

It doesn't matter whether you care for a day, or me. What matters is what day God cares for.
@Aunty Jane
If God has blessed a day millennia before a Jew existed, them out isn't a Jewish day, it's God's day. That day is still blessed. Still holy. Still sanctified. You cast it aside as of no account simply because your opinion is that it isn't for you? Yet Jesus declared it a gift for mankind. Not the Jews, but everyone.

 

[Brakelite]

A non-reply to post #15 because it has you stumped. Who killed the first 27+ popes? You run every time I bring this historical FACT up. You inject into the discussion a false history invented by cults. They have no credibility. You latch on to their lies because it meets some sick need.
Again, who killed the first 27+ popes? You won't answer because the truth shatters your stupid myth making about the early church.

Pagan Rome persecuted the early church until the 3rd century. I think the emperor was Gratian, just before Constantine, who saw no benefit in killing Christians. But were there popes at that time? I could accept that the bishops of Rome were killed, along with thousands of others. As well as bishops of other cities where pagan Rome held sway. I don't see how that detracts from the argument that the early church slowly sunk into apostasy beginning from the 4th century when it began to cling to civil power. That fall was complete around the 6th century when she too began to persecute "heretics" and other Christians because they refused papal authority over their spiritual welfare. And that authority to persecute came from pagan Rome... Not scripture.

 

[Brakelite]

Where does the Pope get his authority?​

From his followers. They give it to him. No followers, no authority.

Great point. No idol becomes one without the Idolator.

 

[Brakelite]

That’s easy…we don’t have holy days to worship God…we do that every day. Our meetings are held on days that are most convenient to the majority in the congregation…sometimes a weekend, or an evening of a week day….sometimes we share a Kingdom Hall with other congregations and have to organize meeting times to suit everyone. There is no special day of the week for Christians.
We are under no obligation to observe a Sabbath. That was mandated to the Jews…..I am not Jewish.

Exodus 31:16-17…“The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite [“a perpetual covenant,” RS]. Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.”

No one outside of Israel was told to observe a Sabbath.

Col 2:16-17…
”Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17 Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.”

Jews who became Christians could still observe a Sabbath rest day if they wanted to, but it was no longer a requirement…..The Law was no longer binding under the new covenant.

So the ten commandments were only for Jews?

 

[Peterlag]

It doesn't matter whether you care for a day, or me. What matters is what day God cares for.
@Aunty Jane
If God has blessed a day millennia before a Jew existed, them out isn't a Jewish day, it's God's day. That day is still blessed. Still holy. Still sanctified. You cast it aside as of no account simply because your opinion is that it isn't for you? Yet Jesus declared it a gift for mankind. Not the Jews, but everyone.

Galatians 4:10-11
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

 

[Brakelite]

Galatians 4:10-11
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

You are afraid for me because I choose to honour the 4th Commandment?

 

[Peterlag]

You are afraid for me because I choose to honour the 4th Commandment?

My thoughts on that are this...

We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane
If God has blessed a day millennia before a Jew existed, them out isn't a Jewish day, it's God's day. That day is still blessed. Still holy. Still sanctified. You cast it aside as of no account simply because your opinion is that it isn't for you? Yet Jesus declared it a gift for mankind. Not the Jews, but everyone.

There was no command for anyone to observe the seventh day that God had reserved for his rest, before the Jews were commanded to do so in their law. If he did where will I find it?

The seventh day of Genesis is not a 24 hour day......it is the period between the close of the sixth day what followed thereafter.....until the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ and his “joint-heirs”....which after the cleansing of this earth , will still be 1000 years into the future. We are in God’s counting of time, not man’s.

So God rested only from his creative work on “the seventh day.”...... He and his son have never stopped working. (John 5:17)

It is as though the Creator stepped back and allowed what he had set in motion to run its course....for all contingencies to surface, and be dealt with successfully. He had full confidence that by the end of “the seventh day,” (then thousands of years into the future) everything will have turned out exactly as he has purposed. Whatever obstacles came up as a result of the abuse of free will, they would have been overcome in order to teach us the value of obedience.

All obedient mankind will benefit when God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. Nothing will prevent this because God’s blessing is on “the seventh day,” and he made it “sacred.” It’s success is assured so that at the end, the missing declaration for the seventh day, will also be “very good”. There was a reason why the 7th day had no closing declaration from God.....something that many overlook.

What a fantastic prospect for obedient mankind!....to finally experience what it’s like to have God as our only Sovereign ruler....No satan, and no wicked humans or angels to ever derail God’s purpose again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So the ten commandments were only for Jews?

As part of God’s law to Israel, the apostle Paul said that “Christ was the end of the law”, (Rom 10:4) which included the 10 Commandments.
Paul said that we who have a new covenant operating, are no longer bound by a written code.
“For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under the Law but under grace.” (Romans 6:14 NASB)

The law was a constant reminder that they were sinners because no one could keep it perfectly....therefore “the law was a curse”....(Gal 3:10) Christ released us all from the curse of the law, by becoming a curse instead of us. (Gal 3:13)

Does releasing his worshippers from his law invite unlawful conduct? The law is no longer written on parchment, but on hearts and exercised by conscience. The law of love now motivated right conduct from the heart....loving God and neighbor was the foundation of this new law, so nothing we could do as God’s worshippers could transgress either one of those principles. No written law was necessary.

 

[Peterlag]

There was no command for anyone to observe the seventh day that God had reserved for his rest, before the Jews were commanded to do so in their law. If he did where will I find it?

The seventh day of Genesis is not a 24 hour day......it is the period between the close of the sixth day what followed thereafter.....until the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ and his “joint-heirs”....which after the cleansing of this earth , will still be 1000 years into the future. We are in God’s counting of time, not man’s.

So God rested only from his creative work on “the seventh day.”...... He and his son have never stopped working. (John 5:17)

It is as though the Creator stepped back and allowed what he had set in motion to run its course....for all contingencies to surface, and be dealt with successfully. He had full confidence that by the end of “the seventh day,” (then thousands of years into the future) everything will have turned out exactly as he has purposed. Whatever obstacles came up as a result of the abuse of free will, they would have been overcome in order to teach us the value of obedience.

All obedient mankind will benefit when God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. Nothing will prevent this because God’s blessing is on “the seventh day,” and he made it “sacred.” It’s success is assured so that at the end, the missing declaration for the seventh day, will also be “very good”. There was a reason why the 7th day had no closing declaration from God.....something that many overlook.

What a fantastic prospect for obedient mankind!....to finally experience what it’s like to have God as our only Sovereign ruler....No satan, and no wicked humans or angels to ever derail God’s purpose again.

May I add to this... God does not care about days for the Christian. We now have Christ in us and what God is concerned with now is having a sweet fellowship with us and us with Him. Being concerned with days and weeks was for Israel who had no spirit of Christ and so the Law was the only way they could acknowledge God. You guys do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God with this Law that went out of date more then 2 thousand years ago.

 

[RedFan]

May I add to this... God does not care about days for the Christian. We now have Christ in us and what God is concerned with now is having a sweet fellowship with us and us with Him. Being concerned with days and weeks was for Israel who had no spirit of Christ and so the Law was the only way they could acknowledge God. You guys do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God with this Law that went out of date more then 2 thousand years ago.

What's your explanation for Jesus's end-times comment in Matt 24:20 ("Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.")?

 

[Behold]

What's your explanation for Jesus's end-times comment in Matt 24:20 ("Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.")?

He is talking about "that generation",.

= The Trib Saints.

Its coming soon.

 

[Brakelite]

Interesting @Aunty Jane that for all their protesting the corruptions of Babylon, Jehovah's Witnesses use the exact same excuses as Babylon for their reluctance to obey God's Commandments, and would rather surrender to their own authority and refused to surrender to the authority of God. Any day? Sorry aunty but God did not bless, sanctify and make holy just any day. Not did He bless, sanctify, and make holy am undermined length of time that flatly denies the creation week. Jesus created 7 days. We still celebrate that 7 days today. And the 7th is an evening and morning like the rest, and Jesus observed the Sabbath, as did His disciples, as did the apostles, as did the early church until Babylon forced it underground and killed those who chose to obey.

 

[Cassandra]

Interesting @Aunty Jane that for all their protesting the corruptions of Babylon, Jehovah's Witnesses use the exact same excuses as Babylon for their reluctance to obey God's Commandments, and would rather surrender to their own authority and refused to surrender to the authority of God. Any day? Sorry aunty but God did not bless, sanctify and make holy just any day. Not did He bless, sanctify, and make holy am undermined length of time that flatly denies the creation week. Jesus created 7 days. We still celebrate that 7 days today. And the 7th is an evening and morning like the rest, and Jesus observed the Sabbath, as did His disciples, as did the apostles, as did the early church until Babylon forced it underground and killed those who chose to obey.

Witnesses believe that Creation Week was much longer that 7 days.

 

[BarneyFife]

Witnesses believe that Creation Week was much longer that 7 days.

I know a lot of it is just carrying on family traditions or believing whatever some nice person taught you when you were down and out, but for so many online debaters it just seems like an endless round of "What's the least I can do in terms of obedience?" or "How can I get around this thing that's going to make me have to change the way I live?"

As I recall, the Sabbath issue itself was pretty easy to wrap my head around, and once I decided I was going to do what God said no matter what, the doing, itself, was just academic.

I had challenges at times but I never had any doubt that God was going to make a way for me to do what He said. If He commanded the worlds into existence, how could He possibly fail to get me a job with Sabbaths off, if that was actually the way He wanted me to live my life?


.

 

[The Learner]

Aaaaah. Am I allowed to do that?

A historical overview freind.

Adoptionism.​

WHOM TO BLAME. Theodosius of Byzantium, back in the 190s.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? Human. Got promoted. By virtue of his outstanding life, the Holy Spirit turned Jesus of Nazareth into “the Son of God.”BONEHEADED IDEAS. So… maybe we can do likewise! (Mormon theology leans this way.)

Apollinarism.​

WHOM TO BLAME. Apollinaris of Laodicea, 370s.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? Demigod. Jesus has a human body and emotions (the “lower soul”), but no mind, no will. That was taken over by the divine “word,” turning Jesus into a human/divine hybrid.BONEHEADED IDEAS. Hence the body and emotions can’t be redeemed by a Spirit-led life. We have to kill off the body and become pure spirits. (Much as Platonists believed.)

Arianism.​

ALSO CALLED: Jehovah’s Witnesses.WHOM TO BLAME. Arius of Alexandria, 310s.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? Another god. At creation, Jesus was created as a subordinate god to the One God. So we’re bitheists.BONEHEADED IDEAS. Much as Jesus said we can’t serve two masters, Arians lean towards worshiping one god over the other; usually Jesus over the One God. (JWs tend to worship the One God over Jesus.)

Docetism.​

WHOM TO BLAME. Unknown; 70s.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? God. Jesus wasn’t human. People only δοκοῦσιν/dokúsin, think, he’s human; he seems human; he’s not really. Hence the term. (People tend to confuse docetists with gnostics, ’cause most gnostics adopted this idea.)BONEHEADED IDEAS. So Jesus didn’t really share a true human experience. His birth was somehow painless; Mary felt nothing. He never had childhood injuries, never had childhood diseases, never got a splinter despite all the carpentry, never grew tired, never got sweaty, never farted after a heavy meal of chickpea stew. When he was crucified he didn’t really suffer, which is why he never screamed or shouted out, and bore it silently. When he died he didn’t really die; he only appeared to, but went to heaven. It’s still a popular view among Christians who are bothered by the idea of a truly human Christ. And of course Christian Scientists claim all reality is an illusion; so Christ Jesus’s human life would be too.

Ebionism.​

ALSO CALLED: Psilanthropism, meaning “merely-human-ism.”WHOM TO BLAME. People ever since the beginning; so, 30s. Named for the אֶבְיוֹן/evyón, “the poor,” a Christian sect which practiced holy poverty.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? Human. Jesus was just an ordinary human. A great prophet, even Messiah, but certainly not God.BONEHEADED IDEAS. And as a mere human, Jesus is extremely clever, but faillble, and his statements of divinity are all probably myths. Hence this is the view of anyone who doesn’t believe Jesus is God, like pagans, Unitarians, and Muslims.

Modalism.​

ALSO CALLED: Sabellianism, monarchianism, patripassianism, Oneness Pentecostalism.WHOM TO BLAME. Sabellius of Rome, 210s.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? God. But God in human mode. See, sometimes God’s the Father… and sometimes he’s the Son (and on earth, Jesus of Nazareth), and sometimes the Holy Spirit. It all depends on what he’s currently doing. So God’s not actually a trinity; we’re just using different words for his different modes.BONEHEADED IDEAS. Because he’s created the illusion of being three persons, God is a bit deceptive. (And deceptively complicated.) Further, God is more might than love.

Monophysitism.​

ALSO CALLED: Eutycheanism.WHOM TO BLAME. Eutyches of Constantinople, 430s.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? God. Jesus doesn’t have two natures, where he’s fully human and fully God: He has one nature, where he’s God. His divine nature overwhelms any human one.BONEHEADED IDEAS. Jesus has no human nature, and therefore wasn’t ever tempted in the same ways we are.

Monothelitism.​

WHOM TO BLAME. Patriarch Sergius 1 of Constantinople, 638.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? Demigod. Jesus has two natures, but only one divine will. He didn’t have to conform to what he saw the Father doing; he already had that will.BONEHEADED IDEAS. Jesus had no human will, and didn’t have to resist temptation and conform to the Father’s will.

Monothelitism.​

WHOM TO BLAME. Patriarch Nestorius of Constantinople, 420s.GOD, HUMAN, DEMIGOD, OR WHAT? Demigod. Jesus doesn’t have two natures, but two persons—a human person and a divine person.BONEHEADED IDEAS. Jesus has a human side and a divine side. (And sometimes they fight.) And because Mary only gave birth to the human person, it’s not accurate to call her the “mother of God,” ’cause Jesus isn’t God like that.

 

[The Learner]

Boss, my Commander wife will kick me off soon

 

[Peterlag]

What's your explanation for Jesus's end-times comment in Matt 24:20 ("Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.")?

He's talking to the Israel in Matthew 24:20 and not Christians. Much of the Roman Catholic doctrine was assimilated into Protestantism and is still being passed along as Christian groups continue to split off from one another. In a nutshell that is why even the independent church in your neighborhood today most probably believes that there is a trinity, dead people are alive, God is in control of everything that happens, the Four Gospels are written to Christians, and water baptism is relevant. And then there's everything that you know about our sin nature was taught to you by them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Interesting @Aunty Jane that for all their protesting the corruptions of Babylon, Jehovah's Witnesses use the exact same excuses as Babylon for their reluctance to obey God's Commandments, and would rather surrender to their own authority and refused to surrender to the authority of God.

Please share any scripture that says any specific day of the week should be deemed “holy” to a Christian?
It was mandated to Jews…no one else.

Deut 5:15…
“Remember that you became a slave in the land of Egypt and that Jehovah your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. That is why Jehovah your God commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.”

Exodus 31:16-16
“The Israelites must keep the Sabbath; they must observe the Sabbath during all their generations. It is a lasting covenant. 17 It is an enduring sign between me and the people of Israel, for in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day he rested and refreshed himself.’”

There is no Sabbath observance mandated for Christians at all, but that doesn’t mean that those who are Jewish Christians (or anyone else for that matter) can’t still keep the observance if they want to…..there is no law against it either. A day of rest is a good thing especially if it is used for spiritual pursuits. But, it is not a requirement.

Any day? Sorry aunty but God did not bless, sanctify and make holy just any day. Not did He bless, sanctify, and make holy am undermined length of time that flatly denies the creation week. Jesus created 7 days. We still celebrate that 7 days today. And the 7th is an evening and morning like the rest, and Jesus observed the Sabbath, as did His disciples, as did the apostles, as did the early church until Babylon forced it underground and killed those who chose to obey.

The 7th day that God blessed was not a 24 hour day…..creation did not take place 6000 years ago. YEC beliefs are thrown out by science, and the Bible itself does not support 24 hour “days” as if God “spoke” creation into being over a literal week……Jehovah is a Creator, not a magician……every creation is well thought out, planned and made according to God’s will and purpose.…perfect in every detail.

The wording in Genesis is also something most people read right over….”there was evening and morning”. How much time elapses between even and morning? That is between sunset and sunrise? Is that 24 hours?

What God is indicating there is that the sun set at the end of one day (Jews counted a day from sunset to sunset) so the beginning of the next “day“ (creative period) started at daybreak…..the “dawn of a new day” in our vernacular.

These are not 24 hour days and the Jewish language allows for an extended period for each creative “day”.

If the seventh day was like the rest, where is the declaration that it is concluded with God stating his approval of what he had accomplished? The 7th day has not ended, and when it does, it will conclude with its appropriate declaration as to God’s satisfaction.