Where In The Faith Are You?

[Netchaplain]

The presence of law (in general) is evidence to the existence of lawless ones. The resolution to lawlessness is not to instill the desire to obey, resulting from consequences of punishment for disobedience to law, but by instilling the desire for obedience, resulting from union and fellowship with the Lawgiver.

I like how J.B. Stoney allegorizes the concept of varying levels of maturity in the Christian life: “There is such a thing as an Outer Court Christian. There is such a thing as a Holy Place Christian. And there is such a thing as a Holy of Holies Christian.

The Outer Court Christian knows only the truth of sacrifice and cleansing. The pattern of his life is getting soiled, then cleansed; soiled, then cleansed. He only knows the truth of the Alter and the Laver.

The Holy Place Christian has advanced beyond the Laver and has become acquainted with the way of the Father. He has eaten from the table of showbread; he has poured out his heart as incense before the Father. This believer knows of the Father’s provision and guidance, yet he still lives on the shadow side of the veil.

Then there is the Holy of Holies Christian. May God increase their number! These are occupied with the Father and the Son. They are in the position of fellowship, rest and worship. It is the “secret place of the Most High,” where they enjoy intimate union with the Father and His Beloved Son.”

Regardless of the level of maturity in our conforming “to the image of Christ” (Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18), we are “hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3) as God is always working in us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13).

 

[Axehead]

The presence of law (in general) is evidence to the existence of lawless ones. The resolution to lawlessness is not to instill the desire to obey, resulting from consequences of punishment for disobedience to law, but by instilling the desire for obedience, resulting from union and fellowship with the Lawgiver.

I like how J.B. Stoney allegorizes the concept of varying levels of maturity in the Christian life: “There is such a thing as an Outer Court Christian. There is such a thing as a Holy Place Christian. And there is such a thing as a Holy of Holies Christian.

The Outer Court Christian knows only the truth of sacrifice and cleansing. The pattern of his life is getting soiled, then cleansed; soiled, then cleansed. He only knows the truth of the Alter and the Laver.

The Holy Place Christian has advanced beyond the Laver and has become acquainted with the way of the Father. He has eaten from the table of showbread; he has poured out his heart as incense before the Father. This believer knows of the Father’s provision and guidance, yet he still lives on the shadow side of the veil.

Then there is the Holy of Holies Christian. May God increase their number! These are occupied with the Father and the Son. They are in the position of fellowship, rest and worship. It is the “secret place of the Most High,” where they enjoy intimate union with the Father and His Beloved Son.”

Regardless of the level of maturity in our conforming “to the image of Christ” (Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18), we are “hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3) as God is always working in us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13).

Hi Netchaplain,

Would you say that as one matures in the Lord that he is being transformed from within by the Life of Christ and his heart is being purified from unrighteousness to an increasingly greater level of experiential righteousness?

Is it possible for the Lord to deliver us inwardly from evil and bring us back to a place of innocence and absence of guile?

Thanks,
Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

The presence of law (in general) is evidence to the existence of lawless ones. The resolution to lawlessness is not to instill the desire to obey, resulting from consequences of punishment for disobedience to law, but by instilling the desire for obedience, resulting from union and fellowship with the Lawgiver.

I like how J.B. Stoney allegorizes the concept of varying levels of maturity in the Christian life: “There is such a thing as an Outer Court Christian. There is such a thing as a Holy Place Christian. And there is such a thing as a Holy of Holies Christian.

The Outer Court Christian knows only the truth of sacrifice and cleansing. The pattern of his life is getting soiled, then cleansed; soiled, then cleansed. He only knows the truth of the Alter and the Laver.

The Holy Place Christian has advanced beyond the Laver and has become acquainted with the way of the Father. He has eaten from the table of showbread; he has poured out his heart as incense before the Father. This believer knows of the Father’s provision and guidance, yet he still lives on the shadow side of the veil.

Then there is the Holy of Holies Christian. May God increase their number! These are occupied with the Father and the Son. They are in the position of fellowship, rest and worship. It is the “secret place of the Most High,” where they enjoy intimate union with the Father and His Beloved Son.”

Regardless of the level of maturity in our conforming “to the image of Christ” (Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18), we are “hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3) as God is always working in us “both to will and to do of His good pleasure” (Phil 2:13).

This is a good picture.

But the conclusion is wrong.

There is no warning in this picture...just a warm fuzzy feeling that lulls people to sleep. The people that continue in the outer court will be rejected. Those who remain in the holy place but refuse to be fully consecrated will never see God.

A balanced word is just that...balanced.

Those who just sin all the time and are content to stay in the outer courts represent almost the whole of western middle class Christianity. These are NOT being conformed to Christ at all. They are seeking to exploit the sacrifice of Christ as consumers...and are encouraged to do so in order to swell the ranks and fill the pews...Shame!

Of course a new believer will mostly begin in the outer courts but unless he moves on to a closer walk in Christ...he will be rejected. Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

“There is such a thing as an Outer Court Christian. There is such a thing as a Holy Place Christian. And there is such a thing as a Holy of Holies Christian.

.
At one time or another I have tried to be all three of those descriptions above.

Then I did a smart thing ... I quit.

I quit trying to be something I was not
I quit trying to live up to some perceived model
I quit trying to meet the religious requirements of the advice givers.
I quit trying to fit into some religious category
I quit trying to be a perfect Christian
I quit worrying about what other people thought of me.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.

The results have been an amazing 25 years as a solid Christian full of imperfections.
I find it very easy just to be genuine .... it's much better than fake Holiness.

 

[Prentis]

.
At one time or another I have tried to be all three of those descriptions above.

Then I did a smart thing ... I quit.

I quit trying to be something I was not
I quit trying to live up to some perceived model
I quit trying to meet the religious requirements of the advice givers.
I quit trying to fit into some religious category
I quit trying to be a perfect Christian
I quit worrying about what other people thought of me.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.
I quit being a pretender.

The results have been an amazing 25 years as a solid Christian full of imperfections.
I find it very easy just to be genuine .... it's much better than fake Holiness.

It is better to be honest than to 'fake holiness'... But our call is above honesty, and to walk in true holiness, which is even better... That is, if we believe in true holiness! ;)

Honesty still falls short of the Lord's calling, and if we are honest in saying that we are not perfect, but dishonest in that we say that the Lord does not call us to it... Are we really honest?

Men think it wise to stop trying to fake this standard which looks impossible to their eyes... But they get caught, because then they deny the standard, and so they still are just as dishonest. The Pharisees were of those who fell into this trap (judging a holy standard by carnal sight) ... The Laodiceans also.

The thinking is basically 'if you can't fool yourself, then fool God.' The result is that you fool yourself into thinking you're fooling God! ;)

This is modern Christianity, 'we didn't fool ourselves into thinking we're actually holy, we just fooled God into it'.

There is only one solution, true actual holiness in which we actually walk, which is found through true intimacy with God, being where he is.

 

[Axehead]

It is true that honesty is much better than "fake" holiness (You come near me with your lips but your heart is far from me. Jesus).

But true holiness is much better, altogether.

Wouldn't it be terrible if God gave us a hope and a promise, but no deliverance in this life? If He did not allow us to taste of Him or partake of His divine nature in this life but only promised it in the next, we would have to live with our impure and evil thoughts and would have no hope of being delivered from our sinful and destructive habits in this life.

But thank God, that we can begin to experience His life NOW!!

Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.


Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

We don't have to live with our fears thinking we can never be free of them. Or accept that sin will be master over us and that we will never be delivered in this life from destructive tendencies as a result of sinful habits. We don't have to believe the lie that the Holy Spirit is impotent to form the righteousness of Christ within us and purify our hearts and mind by His word and Spirit. The Lord is able to bring one into holiness and righteousness but first we must come to the end of ourselves and our own works of trying to achieve this. Legalism and Pretense is a merciless taskmaster and has brought many to a frustrating end. But to this "end" of ourselves the Lord is allowing us to come. Most of us have to go down this road, to understand that holiness and righteousness is not something we can accomplish. God has His unique ways of demonstrating to us that "apart from Him, we can do nothing".

How many of us have found that out and found the secret to LIFE is abiding in Him?

Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

Wow Axehead, that last paragraph in your post #6 contains all the elements I've been sharing and warrants credit!

You asked, "Is it possible for the Lord to deliver us inwardly from evil and bring us back to a place of innocence and absence of guile?" The "innocence" a believer stands in is not affected by the source (old man) of sin which is in our life. If Christ returned today, all who are His would be presented to Him as "a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; that it should be holy and without blemish", because He "gave Himself for it". God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Eph 5: 25, 27; Col 1:13).

Just as Enoch (Gen 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) were translated, our spirit has been translated , or redeemed and now we wait for "the redemption of our body" (Rom 8:23).

Axehead, our heart is not "being purified from unrighteousness" but has already been "cleansed from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). We have been transformed; now we are being conformed!

 

[Prentis]

Wow Axehead, that last paragraph in your post #6 contains all the elements I've been sharing and warrants credit!

You asked, "Is it possible for the Lord to deliver us inwardly from evil and bring us back to a place of innocence and absence of guile?" The "innocence" a believer stands in is not affected by the source (old man) of sin which is in our life. If Christ returned today, all who are His would be presented to Him as "a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; that it should be holy and without blemish", because He "gave Himself for it". God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Eph 5: 25, 27; Col 1:13).

Just as Enoch (Gen 5:24) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) were translated, our spirit has been translated , or redeemed and now we wait for "the redemption of our body" (Rom 8:23).

Axehead, our heart is not "being purified from unrighteousness" but has already been "cleansed from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). We have been transformed; now we are being conformed!

Again, the same issue arises with this doctrine.

It proclaims we are freed in our spirit, but still slaves in our body. It uses all the right words, proclaims all the right things, but then denies the power of the cross to effectively take us out of the way, and the power of God to actually conform us to Christ, not only in word, but in deed. This is a typical doctrine of things being confessed, and being in word, but not in deed.

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

We must not be fooled, the body is not evil. Did Jesus visit us as a ghost, a spirit only? Or did he visit us in a body of blood and flesh like ours?

The implications of Christ coming in the flesh are great.... But usually people do not realize this.

Gal_2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Christ is to live through us in this life, while we are in the flesh. Is 'it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives through me' just a confession of the lips, or a reality in deed? Or is Christ a minister of sin, who lives through us and yet cannot overcome sin?

If we are dead and Christ is alive in us, there is no place for sin. Otherwise we are living in a fantasy, where we think we are dead and Christ is alive, but it is still us living and doing carnal deeds.

 

[Hepzibah]

NetChaplain

I was interested to read your quote as I believe in three stages, and they have been taught for a long time as the Triplex Via - initiation, illumination and glorification. I believe George Fox taught this but Quakers disagree with me. Most holiness teaching is about two stages - justification and sanctification.

I differ however in that I do not call those in the first two stages Christians. I call them believers - those who have been given the power to become sons of God but have not yet attained.

I agree with Epi in that they are not in Christ and will not have the future they are expecting. It is one thing to know God and another to be known by Him.

The bride of Christ has His nature, and walks as He walked in absolute obedience to His Father.

 

[Netchaplain]

Thank you Printis for your replies to my posts because the Lord teaches us truth through one another and through all who share the truth in love--by His Spirit. My little brother, I truly enjoy the zeal and flow of your posts, even though we usually disagree in doctrine.

And unless I misunderstood you before, I have the impression that you (along with many others) believe the Christian is "without sin". I'm not calling you out on this concept but just want to establish a point-of-interest concerning sin and to point out that this concept obviously conflicts with 1 John 1:8. I'm not sure why you mentioned it but I agree that the human "body is not evil"; it's the nature of the spirit within the body that is evil, which Paul meant by "the flesh" or sinful nature, in Romans 7:18.

Understanding that the word "flesh" nearly always refers to the sinful nature, and not the physical body, aids much in biblical instruction.This the Lord has not yet willed to remove from us, but to restrain it in us (Rom 6:12, 14; Gal 5:17); to continue to teach us concerning it for our learning. Just as in His Sovereign will He has not yet willed that the devil be removed from this life.

Therefore, possessing a sin nature does not mandate being "slaves in our body", any more than one still being crucified is dead; still alive to influence but not to dominate. What has been taken "out of the way" is not us, nor the old man (who is still on the Cross but not dead) but "the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Col 2:14).

We are not free of sin's guilt by walking victoriously in Christ, but we walk victoriously in Christ because we have been freed from sin's guilt and domination. We "are dead to sin" (Rom 6:2) but it is not dead to us, for it continually reaches out to us from the Cross in its "sinful passions which were aroused by the law" (Rom 7:5);

"For he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7): "Not from the being of it; nor from the burden of it; nor from a continual war with it; nor from slips and falls into it; no, not even freed from it, in the most solemn services and acts of religion; but they are freed from the dominion of it, from servitude to it, and also from the guilt of it, and from obligation to punishment on account of it: they are, as it is in the Greek text, and as the Vulgate Latin and Arabic versions read, "justified from sin." -J Gill

My apologies if this post is to lengthy to be of interest, but my hope is that those seeking truth for the right reason will find it at least interesting if not instructional.

For Christ's Sake
Your Brother

 

[IanLC]

I have a teaching set God gave me on this topic! This post is a confirmation God gave us similar ideas! Great is the mystery of Godliness! I would say I fall in between a Holy Place Christian and the Holy of Holies Christian! Im really asking God to discipline me and mature me in my walk with Him!

 

[Prentis]

"For he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7): "Not from the being of it; nor from the burden of it; nor from a continual war with it; nor from slips and falls into it; no, not even freed from it, in the most solemn services and acts of religion; but they are freed from the dominion of it, from servitude to it, and also from the guilt of it, and from obligation to punishment on account of it: they are, as it is in the Greek text, and as the Vulgate Latin and Arabic versions read, "justified from sin." -J Gill

Herein lies the issue.

The word says 'he who is dead is freed from sin', and men, in the very explanation of this verse, say that he is not. He is only freed from the punishment, they say. It says we no longer have to serve it, but yet it says we are NOT freed from it. In the same sentence, man says 'no, not even freed from it (sin)' and 'but they are freed from the dominion of it'. A person basically nods to the word (because they believe they must) and then declares the total opposite with a smile. Only indoctrination breeds such results.

In simple words, the above says that God has provided a legal justification whereby we are exempt of the punishment of sin, but his provision is not that which makes us truly overcome sin, and walk as he walked.

But God does not need to answer to some legal system that is above him... Is he not the one who said 'I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy'? God does what he wants. And His desire is to conform us to him, which is through intimacy with him, being where he is... But men often desire only to be saved how they are, apart from being in him. So we see the pattern that men, who desire to save themselves, make a scheme out of the gospel whereas they are justified (justify themselves) apart from a walk in the same power and life as Christ. This allows them to bypass the cross, which is necessary to receive this new life. But a man who does not enter by the gate is an enemy and a trespasser.

This then becomes antiChrist, because it sets itself against the necessity of the work of the cross to work an effective death in us, which allows us to truly walk in the same life and power as Jesus, where, in Him, we overcome fully. Don't be fooled, the difference is not just in doctrine, the difference lies in what spirit and what life animates a person. It is not just two people misunderstanding each other, it is two gospels which are opposed to each other, and cannot coexist, they can only destroy each other.

 

[Netchaplain]

It takes much more time to understand Scripture without the aid of a good Bible commentary, and efficient spiritual growth is stunted otherwise. I do not add this to belittle anyone but to be helpfully supportive in sharing the truth.

To serve sin is to willfully obey it, such as a servant which has no choice otherwise and is placed in a continuous position to be dominated by it. This is the case for every unsaved person, such as we once were. “That henceforth we should not serve sin” (Rom 6:6):- "Not that it should not be in us, for as yet, neither by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ, nor by the power of His grace is sin to be removed from the people of God" -J Gill.

There has always been a standard regarding unintentional and intentional sin: “The priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the LORD, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. The person who does [anything] presumptuously, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt [shall be] upon him" (Num 15:28, 29). “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins" (Heb 10:26).

 

[us2are1]

The presence of law (in general) is evidence to the existence of lawless ones. The resolution to lawlessness is not to instill the desire to obey, resulting from consequences of punishment for disobedience to law, but by instilling the desire for obedience, resulting from union and fellowship with the Lawgiver.

These are all remedies judged and understood by the flesh of the left hand . But like the scripture says eye has not seen nor ear heard. On the other hand are those who understand that the flesh profits nothing and walk in the Spirit.


3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

.

9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

 

[dragonfly]

I would like to post the following scriptures with as little explanation as I can, because it's not my words which matter by the Lord's. Please read carefully.

What I see is that under the Old Covenant, the blood of animals purified the flesh. This is the basis of the writer of Hebrew's claim that His blood purifies not only the flesh, but also the mind (conscience) also. (Look for the other verses containing 'conscience', and remember this work in the conscience by cleansing from all sin, of the blood of the spotless Lamb of God is in addition to its power to cleanse our flesh.)


Hebrews 9:13, 14 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh: how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 3:21, 22 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism does also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 4:1, 2 Forasmuch then as Christ has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin; that he no longer should live the rest of time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


Not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh is the first outworking of walking in the Spirit, by which we begin to have our minds renewed.

The Greek words for transformation and conformation show the renewing of the mind is where the conforming begins to take place. The import of the word 'conformed' is that there is a pre-existing form (Christ) unto which we are being made alike.

The import of the word 'transformed' is that we are metamorphosing into His likeness by the renewing of our minds and the practices which accompany the new thinking. There is no transformation of mind alone, which does not show itself in changed actions.

The idea that sin is still the greater power in the life of the believer, is foreign to the New Testament.

1 John 3:3, Romans 12:1, 2.

 

[Prentis]

It takes much more time to understand Scripture without the aid of a good Bible commentary, and efficient spiritual growth is stunted otherwise. I do not add this to belittle anyone but to be helpfully supportive in sharing the truth.

To serve sin is to willfully obey it, such as a servant which has no choice otherwise and is placed in a continuous position to be dominated by it. This is the case for every unsaved person, such as we once were. “That henceforth we should not serve sin” (Rom 6:6):- "Not that it should not be in us, for as yet, neither by virtue of the sacrifice of Christ, nor by the power of His grace is sin to be removed from the people of God" -J Gill.

You are listening to man and not God. A bible commentary could as much be an explanation of the truth as it could be another opportunity for man to express his opinion on what truth is.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

I am not saying there is no such things as a believer sinning... But the conclusion drawn from the fact a believer can sin is completely wrong... We go in the opposite direction than the Bible does with this fact. The fact we cannot sin does not mean it is impossible for us to cease from sin; rather it simply reveals such a person has not at this point arrived to maturity, attained the full stature of Christ.

John says 'IF we sin'. Not 'when we sin'... If. To sin simply reveals we are not abiding fully in him, not to the full extent. Very few believe in this, even fewer experience such a place, but is it not said that few are chosen? Christendom is a religion of the many... But Christ chose few disciples. The walk in Christ is in great depth and in a place of intimacy. We are called to is a great salvation, not something most men experience. In Christ, we are called to be as he is... no different, without spot or wrinkle... blameless.

That would be to be in the holy of holies, where Christ himself is.

 

[Netchaplain]

My beloved little Brother, God uses those who are studious of His Word and seek to apply it, to understand it.This esp. includes Bible commentators which many are men of God who have devoted the majority of their lives to the study of Scripture for the express purpose of receiving from God--through the Spirit of course, the understanding of His will.

Seeking multiple opinions from learned men of Scripture increases the potential for accurate understanding (Prov 11:14; 15:22; 24:4) and avoids the limitations of "leaning" to our "own understanding" (Prov 3;5).

There is no Bible commentator who supports the concept that the Christian does not sin, nor is sinless. This is a common misconception of which many have conceived but few have retained and due to its overwhelming nonacceptance in Christendom and the lack of scriptural support, it should admonish one who supports such concept. A good passage to use for an experiment is 1 John 3:6 and for ease of use, I have provided a link which includes multiple commentaries: http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/

It took me about the first ten years of my thirty-five year Christian life to realize the advantage of commentaries and I'm convinced that those who do not desire to compare the understanding of learned men of God are surly in the wake of the advancement of those who do.

To believe a lie when seeking the truth is an acceptable ignorance, because the truth will eventually be found; but a truth never found is a truth never sought.

Regardless of our belief's, let it be known that my intentions are always for truth's sake and never for contentions of conflict, which tends to put one above or below another.

 

[Prentis]

My beloved little Brother, God uses those who are studious of His Word and seek to apply it, to understand it.This esp. includes Bible commentators which many are men of God who have devoted the majority of their lives to the study of Scripture for the express purpose of receiving from God--through the Spirit of course, the understanding of His will.

Seeking multiple opinions from learned men of Scripture increases the potential for accurate understanding (Prov 11:14; 15:22; 24:4) and avoids the limitations of "leaning" to our "own understanding" (Prov 3;5).

There is no Bible commentator who supports the concept that the Christian does not sin, nor is sinless. This is a common misconception of which many have conceived but few have retained and due to its overwhelming nonacceptance in Christendom and the lack of scriptural support, it should admonish one who supports such concept. A good passage to use for an experiment is 1 John 3:6 and for ease of use, I have provided a link which includes multiple commentaries: http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/

What bothers if bible commentators do not support certain beliefs? Is it 'all those who are led of the Bible commentators, these are the sons of God? ;)


Many went into the desert... Only two displayed the faith that pleased God so that he made them to enter the promised land. 12 spies went into the land, only 2 responded by faith.

Do we really expect the crowd, the majority to get it right? God makes his ways mysterious to see who would seek him out. God calls for a faith far above what the modern evangelical standard calls us to. We are not called to just 'believe', but to do the works of faith.

'If you were sons of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham', said Christ to the Pharisees. The children of Abraham are those who do the works of Abraham, works of faith! (two words evangelicalism tries to pit against each other) As JohnnyB and Axehead beautifully exposed through scriptures in 'The Narrow Way' thread, we are called to diligently seek to enter in. If we have faith... We will pray. What drives a man to seek God but that he (1) sees, feels and knows he is in need of a greater power (usually because of loneliness, fear, pain) and (2) that he believes God can and will answer him?

Thus true faith drives a man to prayer, it drives him to seek, it drives him to do the works of faith (this then is a living faith)! We are called to believe INTO Christ, and to attain fully now. To minimize this standard becomes ridiculous in the light of who Christ was, and the power that he promises us to become the sons of God, like him, in this life.

The church is in dire need of such a revelation, a true revelation in the power of the Spirit of who Christ is, and of his provision.

Regardless of our belief's, let it be known that my intentions are always for truth's sake and never for contentions of conflict, which tends to put one above or below another.

Then God bless you for your attitude and heart. :)

But good attitude does not make us immune from deception... The enemy has many ways of blinding us. God rewards faith.... And when we receive a response to our faith, the enemy's favorite thing is to short-circuit the purpose of this response. If he can make us believe that the standard is ANYTHING less than what it is, and we are not really called to strive to enter in, then he destroys God's work; the response and gift of God then does not profit us because it does not bring the desired result (God's desired result). So we are fooled, the devil happy, and the grace of God frustrated. This is the state of the majority of the church today...

God will not be defeated, and the truth will soon be proclaimed once again. God will show his way... But in the meantime, he wants to see who's paying attention!

 

[Netchaplain]

Prentis, you are elaborate in your reasoning, but to me it is many times so general that it doesn't contain enough specific related information to understand what you are trying to support.

I'll try to use some of your material in this post to attempt to explain myself and I hope you know it's not to belittle you or exult myself, but for truth's sake.

"Do we really expect the crowd, the majority to get it right"? - It would help if you indicated from what group of people this crowd comes from. The world or the Body? I wouldn't think the Body would be intended here because most who attend church meetings and profess to be Christians truly are Christians and it stands to reason that the world can't get it right, being without God.

"God makes his ways mysterious to see who would seek him out". - The Father's ways concerning His kingdom are not a mystery to the believer for He makes it plain to him in His Word--through the Spirit; "And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without (outside the Body), all these things are done in parables" (Mark 4:11); "I shall show you plainly of the Father" (John 16:25). "His disciples said unto Him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly" (v 29).

"We are not called to just 'believe', but to do the works of faith." - The greatest works of faith have to do, not with miracles but with the "drawing neigh to God" (John 4:8) and the conversion of souls to grace (Jam 4:20), which in itself is miraculous. This the Lord revealed when He said "He that believes on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father" (John 14:12). Whatever greater works our Lord was referring to, will be "greater than these" which He was doing. This is in reference to glorifying the Father, which was His primary reason for all He did and was also in reference to greater numbers of conversions, which was His secondary reason for all He did. Christ knew His Apostles would produce greater numbers than Him. They had more time than He had "because I go unto My Father". "The work of an evangelist" (2 Tim 4:5) was done by emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ and the authority of Scripture, which brought about conversions.

I hope this gives you the idea I am referring to and I'm stopping at this one: "The enemy has many ways of blinding us". We can be assured that self, Satan and society will be relentless in attempts to deceive the believer, but we can also rest assured that it will only be failed attempts, because it is not possible to "deceive the very elect" (Mat 24:24).

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Bob,

but we can also rest assured that it will only be failed attempts, because it is not possible to "deceive the very elect" (Mat 24:24).

This verse is not saying the elect cannot be deceived. The elect have to keep themselves in the love of God, keep themselves from idols, keep themselves from sin. Surely the words 'if possible' need not be in the sentence if one had automatic immunity purely through being 'elect'?



Hi Prentis,

I have great sympathy with your view of commentaries, because the writers do not necessarily have revelation on all the points to which they offer comment. That's why the Body is needed - even in the life of a Bible commentator! But, just as we read scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit can witness only to what is true in a commentary.

Problems arise from interpretations which are included to complete the work, where probably even the commentator would admit he had no real revelation from God. A believer who lacks insight from the Holy Spirit may adopt or retain views which justify them in their own carnal thinking, and, which may hold them back from seeking a fuller revelation as one would normally do, (relying on the Holy Spirit or those in the Body to whom insight may be given). I think we come across this phenomenon in forum discussions, sometimes. :)