Which denomination do I belong to?

[Aunty Jane]

Rather than try to just copy and paste an explanation, I'll put the link here for you that explains that Jesus is God, knew it, and claimed it to be so: Jesus Knew He Was God, and Said So

And what an interesting link it is…...do his assertions stand up to scrutiny?

Your reference states….
”Jesus does make such a claim several times, but it isn’t easy for us to see today, because we are not familiar with the first-century Jewish context he draws upon, and since these claims are somewhat veiled to our eyes, people can reinterpret Jesus’ words to explain away his divine self-reference. While such words can be explained away, Jesus’ audience’s reaction to his words isn’t so easy to dismiss.”

So we start by assuming that first century Jews had the correct context of anything scriptural. They were castigated by Jesus for their failure to observe God’s word by putting man-made traditions in their place…something the RCC has also done. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:13)

What was “veiled” to their eyes is also “veiled” to the eyes of misunderstanding Daniel’s prophesies. What did God tell Daniel to do with his records of the things God revealed to him?
Daniel 12:4….
“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and knowledge will become abundant.”

No one would understand Daniel’s prophesies until “the time of the end” where we find ourselves right now in this present age.

It goes on to say…
”The charge of blasphemy was serious, and stoning was against Roman law. Therefore, the reaction of Jesus’ original hearers provides a solid indicator as to whether he claimed to be divine.”

Jesus claiming to be the Messiah was not a claim to be God. He only ever said that he was the “son of God” but the church changed that to “God the Son”…..scriptural sleight of hand.

Read John 10:31-36….
”Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? (theos) 35 If he called ‘gods’ (theos) those against whom the word of God (ho theos) came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the son of God’ (ho theos)?”

Here we have Jesus quoting his Father’s word, calling the judges in Israel “gods” (theos) but when referring to his Father the Greek uses “ho theos” which was identifying Jehovah. Calling Jesus divine was not calling him Jehovah.

Strongs primary definition of the word “theos“ (god) is…
“a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”…..so calling Jesus “theos” is not calling him God but referring to his divine appointment as Messiah. The Father is identified in that verse by the use of the definite article….something that is omitted from Christendom’s translations. It’s a small word but with a very important meaning.

If human judges in Israel were called “gods” by the Father himself, because of their divine appointment as his representatives in Israel, then calling the son “theos” can mean the same divine authority was conferred on him.

John 1:1 ….”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (ho theos) and the Word was God (theos)”. So this omission is misleading because the definite article is plainly seen in reference to the Father, but not the son. Therefore this is not a declaration of Jesus’ deity, but of his divine origin and authority from the Father, directly assigned as Israel’s Messiah….the promised one…..YET they wanted him dead….why? Because he did not present himself as THEY expected their Messiah to come...to aggrandize them, and to restore Israel’s glory to these corrupt men. This is the reason why they wanted to pin a charge of blasphemy on him….to have an excuse to execute him.

Continuing from your reference…..after quoting Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14….he says….
“In this passage, “one like a son of man” comes “with the clouds of heaven” and presents himself before God (the Ancient of Days) and receives universal and everlasting dominion over the whole earth.

These two passages together cause a certain amount of exegetical tension. If God is one, why set up more than one throne? Who sits on the other throne? Indeed, how can any creature be worthy to be enthroned next to God?

Who indeed? Reading on in Daniel in the next few verses, (15-18) we see exactly who occupies the thrones (not numbered and assumed to be two, rather than three if one is supposed to be supporting a three headed god)….

“As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me because the visions of my head frightened me. 16 I went near to one of those who were standing there to ask him about the true meaning of this. So he replied and made known to me the interpretation of these things.

17 “‘These huge beasts, four in number, are four kings who will stand up from the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’”

Who are “The holy ones of the Supreme One” mentioned here with Jesus being crowned as King of God’s Kingdom…..remembering that this vision was part of the prophesies pertaining to “the time of the end”….?
The thrones represent the “saints” (holy ones, elect, chosen ones) who will rule as kings with Christ in heaven, (Rev 20:6) replacing the faithless Jews who, as a nation, murdered their own Messiah and disqualified themselves from citizenship in that coming kingdom. (Matt 23:37-39)

If one allows the Bible to explain itself, we can see that there is no real evidence for Christendom’s errors but we do see in Daniel the reason why they are so blinded….(2 Cor 4:3-4)

Again God tells Daniel in Daniel 12:9-10…
”Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.”

This is the time for ‘knowledge to become abundant’ and for those who are of the right heart to “cleanse whiten and refine” their beliefs in light of that knowledge, previously hidden from corrupted religious leaders, but revealed to “the holy ones” in this “time of the end”……who are they? God will lead right-hearted ones to them. (John 6:44, 65) The rest will be left to wallow in their errors right up to the end, because they preferred the convenient lies, to the inconvenient truth. (2 Thess 2:9-12; Matt 7:21-23)

Those on the road to life are “few”….but those on the highway to destruction are “many”. (Matt7:13-14)

 

[Spyder]

There is one God made up of Three Divine Persons:, which we call the Holy Trinity: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

All you can give is your personal opinion, since you do not have Apostolic Succession or a guarantee that you are doctrinally correct. And opinions are like noses. Everyone has one.

Interesting view. I let God's spirit teach me, as we are told in Scripture to do. I would hope that is your method of determining truth as well, but since you rely on Apostolic Succession or man's guarantee, I may be hoping wrong.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Nehemiah 9:20 “You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.

Matthew 10:19-20 But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Mark 13:11 When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

 

[Spyder]

And what an interesting link it is…...do his assertions stand up to scrutiny?

Your reference states….
”Jesus does make such a claim several times, but it isn’t easy for us to see today, because we are not familiar with the first-century Jewish context he draws upon, and since these claims are somewhat veiled to our eyes, people can reinterpret Jesus’ words to explain away his divine self-reference. While such words can be explained away, Jesus’ audience’s reaction to his words isn’t so easy to dismiss.”

So we start by assuming that first century Jews had the correct context of anything scriptural. They were castigated by Jesus for their failure to observe God’s word by putting man-made traditions in their place…something the RCC has also done. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:13)

What was “veiled” to their eyes is also “veiled” to the eyes of misunderstanding Daniel’s prophesies. What did God tell Daniel to do with his records of the things God revealed to him?
Daniel 12:4….
“As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and knowledge will become abundant.”

No one would understand Daniel’s prophesies until “the time of the end” where we find ourselves right now in this present age.

It goes on to say…
”The charge of blasphemy was serious, and stoning was against Roman law. Therefore, the reaction of Jesus’ original hearers provides a solid indicator as to whether he claimed to be divine.”

Jesus claiming to be the Messiah was not a claim to be God. He only ever said that he was the “son of God” but the church changed that to “God the Son”…..scriptural sleight of hand.

Read John 10:31-36….
”Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you “theos) 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? (theos) 35 If he called ‘gods’ (theos) those against whom the word of God (ho theos) came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am the son of God’ (ho theos)?”

Here we have Jesus quoting his Father’s word, calling the judges in Israel “gods” (theos) but when referring to his Father the Greek uses “ho theos” which was identifying Jehovah. Calling Jesus divine was not calling him Jehovah.

Strongs primary definition of the word “theos“ (god) is…
“a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities”…..so calling Jesus “theos” is not calling him God but referring to his divine appointment as Messiah. The Father is identified in that verse by the use of the definite article….something that is omitted from Christendom’s translations. It’s a small word but with a very important meaning.

If human judges in Israel were called “gods” by the Father himself, because of their divine appointment as his representatives in Israel, then calling the son “theos” can mean the same divine authority was conferred on him.

John 1:1 ….”In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (ho theos) and the Word was God (theos)”. So this omission is misleading because the definite article is plainly seen in reference to the Father, but not the son. Therefore this is not a declaration of Jesus’ deity, but of his divine origin and authority from the Father, directly assigned as Israel’s Messiah….the promised one…..YET they wanted him dead….why? Because he did not present himself as THEY expected their Messiah to come...to aggrandize them, and to restore Israel’s glory to these corrupt men. This is the reason why they wanted to pin a charge of blasphemy on him….to have an excuse to execute him.

Continuing from your reference…..after quoting Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14….he says….
“In this passage, “one like a son of man” comes “with the clouds of heaven” and presents himself before God (the Ancient of Days) and receives universal and everlasting dominion over the whole earth.

These two passages together cause a certain amount of exegetical tension. If God is one, why set up more than one throne? Who sits on the other throne? Indeed, how can any creature be worthy to be enthroned next to God?

Who indeed? Reading on in Daniel in the next few verses, (15-18) we see exactly who occupies the thrones (not numbered and assumed to be two, rather than three if one is supposed to be supporting a three headed god)….

“As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me because the visions of my head frightened me. 16 I went near to one of those who were standing there to ask him about the true meaning of this. So he replied and made known to me the interpretation of these things.

17 “‘These huge beasts, four in number, are four kings who will stand up from the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Supreme One will receive the kingdom, and they will possess the kingdom forever, yes, forever and ever.’”

Who are “The holy ones of the Supreme One” mentioned here with Jesus being crowned as King of God’s Kingdom…..remembering that this vision was part of the prophesies pertaining to “the time of the end”….?
The thrones represent the “saints” (holy ones, elect, chosen ones) who will rule as kings with Christ in heaven, (Rev 20:6) replacing the faithless Jews who, as a nation, murdered their own Messiah and disqualified themselves from citizenship in that coming kingdom. (Matt 23:37-39)

If one allows the Bible to explain itself, we can see that there is no real evidence for Christendom’s errors but we do see in Daniel the reason why they are so blinded….(2 Cor 4:3-4)

Again God tells Daniel in Daniel 12:9-10…
”Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. 10 Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand.”

This is the time for ‘knowledge to become abundant’ and for those who are of the right heart to “cleanse whiten and refine” their beliefs in light of that knowledge, previously hidden from corrupted religious leaders, but revealed to “the holy ones” in this “time of the end”……who are they? God will lead right-hearted ones to them. (John 6:44, 65) The rest will be left to wallow in their errors right up to the end, because they preferred the convenient lies, to the inconvenient truth. (2 Thess 2:9-12; Matt 7:21-23)

Those on the road to life are “few”….but those on the highway to destruction are “many”. (Matt7:13-14)

Well, there is nothing in scripture that proves God was not serious when He said that He ALONE is Yahweh God. He also did not revoke his statement that we can have other gods before Him. I have seen no scripture that revokes what Yahweh has stated.

We should keep in mind that God's word never contradicts itself.

Also, necessary in our studies is to remember that we do not have a God of confusion. There are many who claim to be scholars with advanced degrees, however, that admit that the Bible does not say that Jesus or God Spirit are also "other gods." Yet, these same "scholars" claim to be trinitarians. That proves to me that they be experts when it comes to a book, but not that they rely on God's Spirit to teach them.

Yahweh being God ALONE was never a secret - except to those who want to believe that Jesus is also God.

 

[Augustin56]

Interesting view. I let God's spirit teach me, as we are told in Scripture to do. I would hope that is your method of determining truth as well, but since you rely on Apostolic Succession or man's guarantee, I may be hoping wrong.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Nehemiah 9:20 “You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.

Matthew 10:19-20 But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Mark 13:11 When they arrest you and hand you over, do not worry beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

Luke 12:12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say.”

1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Spyder, I think you may be confused. I hope I haven't contributed to your confusion. If I have, I apologize.

Apostolic Succession is the authority God gave man. Authority is given, not taken. The New Testament is clear that God (Jesus) founded a Church, with His authority to teach, preach, and sanctify. This Church preceded the New Testament. The New Testament is based on Holy Tradition (oral teachings of the Apostles and their successors, the bishops). Not vice versa. It is the Church that St. Paul says is the "pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15. We see in Acts 8:26-39 where the Eunuch was trying to read and interpret Scripture, but he said it was hard and how could he really know what it meant unless someone guided him. So, Philip (member of the Church) sat with him and guided him.

I hear many people claiming to read and interpret Scripture by the Holy Spirit. Yet, they come up with differing and contradictory conclusions. For example, the Baptists claim that infant Baptism is invalid. The Lutherans (and a few others?) claim it is valid. All read the same Scriptures and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit, but come up with contradictory conclusions. The Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of contradiction or confusion. So, either we really have no way to surely know what God wants us to know, or He did leave us some way, some instrument to surely know His message. I claim it is the Church He founded, that He promised would never teach doctrinal error. Historically, this is the Catholic Church, since no other existed from the beginning, and for quite a while (1000 years, then the Orthodox splintered off). This self-interpretive, Sola Scriptura approach came in around the 16th century and has resulted in constant splintering and disagreements to the tune of tens of thousands of man-made, doctrinally contradicting denominations. I'm often puzzled by how this isn't glaringly obvious to even the most casual of observers.

 

[TonyChanYT]

I let God's spirit teach me

Amen. Check out Who is the Paraclete?.

 

[Spyder]

Spyder, I think you may be confused. I hope I haven't contributed to your confusion. If I have, I apologize.

Apostolic Succession is the authority God gave man. Authority is given, not taken. The New Testament is clear that God (Jesus) founded a Church, with His authority to teach, preach, and sanctify. This Church preceded the New Testament. The New Testament is based on Holy Tradition (oral teachings of the Apostles and their successors, the bishops). Not vice versa. It is the Church that St. Paul says is the "pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15. We see in Acts 8:26-39 where the Eunuch was trying to read and interpret Scripture, but he said it was hard and how could he really know what it meant unless someone guided him. So, Philip (member of the Church) sat with him and guided him.

I hear many people claiming to read and interpret Scripture by the Holy Spirit. Yet, they come up with differing and contradictory conclusions. For example, the Baptists claim that infant Baptism is invalid. The Lutherans (and a few others?) claim it is valid. All read the same Scriptures and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit, but come up with contradictory conclusions. The Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of contradiction or confusion. So, either we really have no way to surely know what God wants us to know, or He did leave us some way, some instrument to surely know His message. I claim it is the Church He founded, that He promised would never teach doctrinal error. Historically, this is the Catholic Church, since no other existed from the beginning, and for quite a while (1000 years, then the Orthodox splintered off). This self-interpretive, Sola Scriptura approach came in around the 16th century and has resulted in constant splintering and disagreements to the tune of tens of thousands of man-made, doctrinally contradicting denominations. I'm often puzzled by how this isn't glaringly obvious to even the most casual of observers.

You are exactly correct brother. Many make the claim that God's Spirit teaches them truth. I have spoken to many who make that claim, and at one time, so did I. However, the truth was that the preaching and teaching of others created "my truth." I had never really surrendered myself to God and His Son. I was accepted as a preacher simply because I parroted the teachings of that church. Since they thought I knew truth because it was the same one that they accepted, I must be worthy of preaching and teaching.

So, I attended training to get first a Pastoral Ministry degree. I did well at that time, because I was adept at spewing back what I was told. I learned basically nothing in that school but I got a piece of paper.

It felt really shallow to try to believe that I was ready to serve God with the training I received from that school. I enrolled for a Bachelor's degree in Scriptural Studies. I enjoyed that one because my grades came from my ability to perform hermeneutics rather that to repeat lectures. Even if I disagreed with the teaching, if I was able to justify my position scripturally; it counted as "learning."

But, my learning only started there. I kept studying for years and have a large library that displays how my understandings changed. The doctrines I studied caused me to cease believing some of the things that my church taught. Friction arose because of it. So, being simply human, I asked God to correct my errors. Well, sir, He did not. Actually my understanding grew more solid. Some of them happened to put me into agreement with the Catholic church - which really upset the Baptist congregation where I was at.

Several years later, one of the students in a Bible Study class told me that The Trinity was the main foundation of our Christianity. So, like a student should ask: what verse in the Bible says that? Crickets!

I put my own study off as I have hundreds of topic on my list of things to do. Several months ago, however, The Trinity came up again. I prayed, I read, I researched. The library at home grew even larger. God left me with an understanding that has shattered my religion. asked Him to take it away from me if I am in error. I was grieved. Seriously. As if that was not enough of a rocky road for me, God gave me a new purpose. Now, I tell others about my findings. It was revealed to me that, if I call Jesus God, I am committing sin against Yahweh. I know that it is wrong. I've got the conviction and He won't take it away.

I am fully aware of how people can actually believe in the Trinity, because I used to as well. I've read all the documents of a great many words telling me why I should "assume" that Jesus is God. It all boils down to God cannot lie. He is not a deceiver. If someone tells me that it is not true that Yahweh ALONE is God, then I know someone doesn't know the truth. For most of them, all I can do is pray for them. I think the time is growing short to get that sin out of our lives.

The church that Jesus started did not believe that Jesus or Holy Spirit is God.

 

[TonyChanYT]

The Trinity was the main foundation of our Christianity.

Unfortunately, the policy of this platform does not allow discussion of Trinity. Feel free to follow up at
https://www.reddit.com/r/BibleVerseCommentary/comments/tcvci6

 

[Spyder]

I don't use Reddit, but I'll take your word for it.

Yes, I have seen stuff like this before. Isn't it amazing that The Trinity is so true that nobody is allowed to discuss it? Most church "statements of faith" contain their belief in the trinity yet I have yet to see any pastor or teacher who can point out a proof that Yahweh was not serious when He claimed that He is God alone. They seem to all think that man had to figure it out on his own. I think that is the main reason that the trinity is not allowed to be discussed - the fear that people will finally realize that "the trinity" is the straw that broke the true church's back in the second century. Since these churches are continuing the sin against God, the church that could have been never was.
Does anyone else realize that this prohibition is both censorship of scripture and a denial that Christians trust God's spirit to teach them and not man?

 

[DJT_47]

I don't have a denomination and I don't belong to the category of non-denomination either.

Denominations disagree with one another on doctrinal issues. Each denomination has its strengths and weaknesses. I had set myself a program to visit all religious places accessible by Toronto's TTC. For this reason, I routinely visit denominational and non-denominational churches. I attended Catholic mass, Jewish synagogue, Muslim mosque, Mormon temple, Jehovah's Witness kingdom hall, Buddhist temple, and even some New Age meetings. I don't recommend this practice to everyone. It's good to have a home church and stay put

One reason I started this subreddit is to attempt to sort out some of these issues based on a denomination-free, disciplined logical approach to Biblical interpretation. Instead of forming an association by a fixed set of doctrines as denominational and non-denominational churches do, I attempt to form an informal association by a methodology by which any doctrine can be checked against. It is a dynamic way of forming an association.

I'm a Christian. The word "Christian" is in the Bible. I am a member of the Body of Christ.

BTW, you don't have to stay in a non-denominational church to be a non-denominational. For 10 years, I attended a Baptist church and never called myself a Baptist. I was a Christian in a Baptist church.

What does God think about denominationalism?

See Infantile Christians.

Calvinism, Arminianism, dispensationalism, cessationism, continuationism, and any kind of ism tend to over-generalize. From my personal encounters of over 3 decades, I've found that people who are not trained in first-order logic tend to over-generalize more than those who know FOL. I propose a denomination-free, disciplined logical approach to Biblical interpretation. I am neither liberal nor conservative nor the middle of the road; I am logical, or at least trying to be

One of the problems with the logic of bouncing around is that you're not assembling with true Christians or adhering to Christian principles such as to why they are gathered together upon the 1st day of the week: to have fellowship with the Lord and do so by partaking of the Lord's supper which many do not do. I'm also a Christian and not part of a denomination and have found that the coC is the closest thing to the scriptural church, and therefore, am a member of the Lord's body therewith.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I don't use Reddit, but I'll take your word for it.

Yes, I have seen stuff like this before. Isn't it amazing that The Trinity is so true that nobody is allowed to discuss it? Most church "statements of faith" contain their belief in the trinity yet I have yet to see any pastor or teacher who can point out a proof that Yahweh was not serious when He claimed that He is God alone. They seem to all think that man had to figure it out on his own.

I believe that open and honest discussion should be allowed on all subjects here, but unfortunately this topic is not one that rests easily with those who vehemently hold to it, and therefore the discussion can descend into full on verbal war…..that is mostly why it is not open to discussion.
I understand that and wish it was something we could simply agree to disagree with and not something that draws battle lines. Because it forms the very foundation of Christendom’s teachings, to undermine that foundation would be to collapse their entire belief system.

I think that is the main reason that the trinity is not allowed to be discussed - the fear that people will finally realize that "the trinity" is the straw that broke the true church's back in the second century. Since these churches are continuing the sin against God, the church that could have been never was.

To serve any other God but Yahweh is a breach of the first and most important Commandment. (Ex 20:3)
They have been led to believe that “calling on the name of the Lord” is what will save them, but it’s the wrong name, and the wrong “Lord” that they are calling on.
Jesus is a ”servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27) Yahweh cannot be his own “servant”…he cannot be his own “High Priest” (Heb 3:1)…nor can he become a mere human and be put to death, because he is immortal.

Since there is no direct statement regarding the nature of God and his “only begotten son” except what we have recorded for us in the Bible, the one thing that becomes clear is the fact that the concept of a triune god is missing entirely from God’s word. The Jews did not have such a God because he was “ONE”. (Deut 6:4)
They seem to forget that Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture, which is completely devoid of the concept that only became official RCC doctrine in the 4th century.

The “weeds” of Jesus‘ parable are obvious when we look back at the history of ”the church”……it is not the history of “Christianity” however because the “wheat“ were still there, outnumbered and persecuted for daring the question the self-imposed authority of the church leaders, and the fact that access to the scriptures was denied to the people for centuries of blind indoctrination. These “weeds” had all the soil and fertilizer they needed to do what Christ foretold.

Does anyone else realize that this prohibition is both censorship of scripture and a denial that Christians trust God's spirit to teach them and not man?

There are many of us here who would like open and honest discussion about this topic, but the hot heads complain and the exchanges are anything but “Christian”….if our faith is genuine, we should be able to discuss any and all topics in a mature and civil manner. Jesus never forced his teachings on anyone…he merely presented them and allowed the peoples hearts to respond as they would.
I would like to see the same applied to this topic here. Ban the hot heads, not the topic.

The truth is sometimes very confronting, as Jesus’ ministry revealed….he brought out the best and the worst in people, but it was necessary to make a division between the genuine truth seekers, and those wanting to remain in their comfortable ‘uniform’. Denominationalism simply carves Jesus up and serves him with their own preferred herbs and spices…..

The “wheat” do not carve him up at all….they serve him as the entire “lamb of God” who never compromised the truth to suit anyone’s taste. “Take it or leave it ” was Christ’s motto….the truth must be a divider of hearts and even families. (Matt 10:34-39) Our Father and our spiritual family must become more important that any earthly ties. The road to life is cramped and narrow for a reason. (Matt 7:13-14)

 

[Fred J]

Yes, that's a disciple.

What do you mean, when everyone born again are called to become disciple in the New Testament? (Matthew28:19&20)

And you can be one of those and go to Hell when you die.

What do you again mean by, 'one of those', then you are not one of us, as disciples. (2John1:9-11)

Therefore, we have no fellowship in common with each other. Or perhaps, you're just another babes in Christ testifying your shortsighted version of the Gospel.

 

[Spyder]

Because it forms the very foundation of Christendom’s teachings, to undermine that foundation would be to collapse their entire belief system.

To serve any other God but Yahweh is a breach of the first and most important Commandment. (Ex 20:3
They seem to forget that Jesus was Jewish and taught from Jewish scripture, which is completely devoid of the concept that only became official RCC doctrine in the 4th century.

There are many of us here who would like open and honest discussion about this topic, but the hot heads complain and the exchanges are anything but “Christian”….if our faith is genuine, we should be able to discuss any and all topics in a mature and civil manner. The truth is sometimes very confronting, as Jesus’ ministry revealed….he brought out the best and the worst in people, but it was necessary to make a division between the genuine truth seekers, and those wanting to remain in their comfortable ‘uniform’. Denominationalism simply carves Jesus up and serves him with their own preferred herbs and spices…..

I just had to do some "annotating" of the truths you posted. God bless you!

 

[Behold]

What do you mean, when everyone born again are called to become disciple in the New Testament? (Matthew28:19&20)

Hello @Fred J


Jesus said to the JEWS... that "if you keep my word's, you are my disciple, indeed".

Jesus was not sent to the Gentile world.......He was only sent to the Jews..
And now that we are in the "Time of the Gentiles" we are to follow the "Apostle to the Gentiles" as he was chosen by Jesus, after Jesus was back in Heaven...to be our guide, teacher, and leader.
This is PAUL.

So, you can be a really good disciple, and go to hell when you die.
Millions have found this out.
You can read and memorize the bible, and you can have your idea in your own head regarding how to try to behave like your own personaL vision of Jesus.
You can try to be a "jesus clone"...,, and you'll go to hell just like any other person, who didn't do this..,.


Jesus said....."you must be born again"

And once you are, them God calls you a SON/Daughtter and not a "servant"
Now, we are to serve, and we have become a disciple, but our relationship with God is based on being Born again.
As that is the only way to become a part of God's "children" who all exist in the KOG.

What do you again mean by, 'one of those', then you are not one of us, as disciples. (2John1:9-11)

When the Apostles were talking about "one of US"... and this is after Jesus is back in heaven.. they are talking about the BRETHREN.

Who is that?

That is every "born again Believer", and no other.

Or perhaps, you're just another babes in Christ testifying your shortsighted version of the Gospel.

Once you ask me questions and begin to pay attention to my 300+ Threads and over 12,000 posts, you'll soon find out that im anything but "shortsighted".

I'm happy to answer your questions , but remember to post them as genuine and sincere questions .

 

[Aunty Jane]

I just had to do some "annotating" of the truths you posted. God bless you!

We all should do some ‘annotating’, as scriptures can be ‘read over’ instead of unpacking their contents and comparing what is said to the rest of the scriptures. The Bible is one book, with one author, written by hand-picked ‘secretaries’, so there is nothing in its contents that is contradictory.

Even just one scripture, correctly read and compared with other scripture can bring down the whole building.
One such scripture is 1 Timothy 2:5…..
”For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus”.

A “mediator” is defined in Strongs as…

1. “one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant
2. a medium of communication, arbitrator”

So just logically, the mediator cannot be one of the parties for whom he is acting as a facilitator of communication. A mediator is the bridge between the two estranged parties, clearly identified there….”God and men”.
If Jesus was God, we would need a mediator between us and him too.

To back that up, reinforcing the fact that God is the one who provided this mediator, Jesus himself said in John 17:3…
”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ”.

So the one described by Jesus as “the only true God” “sent” him, and acted as his “holy servant”. (Acts 4:27, 30)

The Sovereign of the Universe did not need to come in person to save the human race from sin and death….he provided the sacrifice himself, just as it was pictured when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his own son…..he was stopped from completing the act, and a ram was provided by God to complete the sacrifice. How well it pictured the willingness of God to sacrifice for mankind his most precious son….and also the son’s willingness to be sacrificed at God’s command. What love is demonstrated in that action.

And, it’s not a difficult concept…”Father and son”….we as humans are familiar with this relationship, but Christendom changed it into something it never was.

The “weeds” did their job and served their god well. As if the RCC wasn’t enough to get Christianity off on the wrong path, the Reformation took place and was hailed for breaking the 1500 year yoke of the corrupt Roman church, and giving the common people back the scriptures, and in many language translations.

Did this unite the Christians, liberated from Catholic doctrines? Sadly it did not….it simply divided the church up into many differing ‘denominations’ who continue to this day to bicker over various teachings.

Where is the truth in all of this? Lost? NO! The “wheat” were always there, in the minority, and persecuted for their refusal to accept what was not scriptural teaching. (John 15:18-21) Many were martyred.

When the reformers broke away, it seems as if the core doctrines of the RCC went with them, unwittingly taking all these denominations down the same path as Catholicism. All it did was create confusion…..then to add to the problems of the church, science stepped in with evolution! “There is no God!….We can explain it all as a natural occurrence!“

So stepping back and looking at the world of today, what is God seeing? Nothing that he did not foresee….and told us about what to expect when Christ was about to fulfill his role as God’s appointed “judge”. (John 5:22; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matt 25:31-34, 41, 46)

According to my studies, Christendom’s central core is what I would call satan’s triad…..three central doctrines that dominate all false religion, “Christian” or non-Christian….

1) a multiplicity of gods…..worshipping more than one God no matter if you squeeze them all into one head.
This is essentially a breach of the first Commandment, putting another god in place of the Father.

2) Belief in an immortal soul, despite the fact that there is no mention of it in the Bible. You will not find those two words, side by side in any passage of scripture.
This belief is nothing more that a perpetuation of the first lie that satan told in Eden. “You surely will not die”…but God told Adam the complete opposite. Death would mean the opposite of life, not a continuation of it in some other form, in some other place. (Gen 2:17; 3:19) The dead are not conscious, as Eccl 9:5, 10 states.

3) Belief in an immortal soul then gave birth to “hellfire”….a mistranslation of the word “Gehenna” used by Jesus to denote, not conscious torture, but a literal place familiar to his Jewish audience, (the Valley of Hinnom…..Jerusalem’s garbage dump where fires were kept burning day and night with the addition of sulfur) denoting to them a place from which no one would be resurrected as the bodies of criminals were often thrown into Gehenna for disposal, like human garbage. IOW, to them it meant eternal death. The Israelites were not taught about an immortal soul…they believed in resurrection…..a return to life. Jesus demonstrated what a resurrection was, with Lazarus. (John 11: 11-14) Where was Lazarus before Jesus brought him back to life? If he was in a better place, how was that doing him a favor, if it meant dying again later of some other cause? What was the benefit to Lazarus If Christendom’s beliefs are true?

A study of the scriptures brings to light many associated accounts, enhancing our understanding and making the Bible come alive as the complete word of God, not twisted into the ideas of men.

I have great respect for someone who has voted with their feet….not many have the courage to hold Christendom to account for her errors. God’s blessing to you too.

 

[Behold]

A “mediator” is defined in Strongs as…

Read and trust your bible., (not the book of Mormon}, and not commentaries and lexicons and so forth.
Trust your bible

1) a multiplicity of gods…..worshipping more than one God no matter if you squeeze them all into one head.
This is essentially a breach of the first Commandment, putting another god in place of the Father.

God as "Tri-part"., or the "Trinity".

3 <> 1

Man is also, Tripart being made in the "image of God".

Man is :

Body
Soul
Spirit

2) Belief in an immortal soul

There are those who confuse the Spirit with the soul.
But that is a simple lack of correct teaching.

See the SPIRIT is the LIFE, in you.. .Its the real you.
Its the part of you that leaves the BODY, when your body dies.
Its the part that is born again... or not.

3) Belief in an immortal soul then gave birth to “hellfire”….a mistranslation of the word “Gehenna”

Actually its a misunderstanding of the word "Gehenna", that causes the person to not understand that "Hell is created for the DEVIL and His Angels".... long before Jerusalem existed, and even before Adam was created.

 

[marks]

That's just a foundational myth.

12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 1:12)​

​

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. (Galatians 2:11-12)​

We've had denominations for 2000 years. But nobody can see what's right before their very eyes because they want to believe the myth that in the beginning we were all one happy family.

And that their claims would go on to bolster their own denominational preference.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Read and trust your bible., (not the book of Mormon}, and not commentaries and lexicons and so forth.
Trust your bible

I have no belief in the Book of Mormon….I trust the Bible implicitly….and it does not teach what you promote.

God as "Tri-part"., or the "Trinity".

3 <> 1

Man is also, Tripart being made in the "image of God".

Man is :

Body
Soul
Spirit

You mean 1 Thess 5:23…?
”May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may the spirit and soul and body of you brothers, sound in every respect, be preserved blameless at the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

True, but correctly understood this is not talking about individuals…it is speaking collectively of the entire body of Christ. Applied collectively, it doesn’t mean what you think it does. It has nothing to do with a “triune” nature in man. It is the body of anointed Christians as a whole…..the soul or life of that body…..and the spirit or zeal for God’s worship that animates them and drives them to serve in faith, and champion the truth among all the lies that satan has instilled in his fake disciples.
You need to do a little more study….

There are those who confuse the Spirit with the soul.
But that is a simple lack of correct teaching.

See the SPIRIT is the LIFE, in you.. .Its the real you.
Its the part of you that leaves the BODY, when your body dies.

There is nothing that leaves the body when you die, except the last breath from your lungs. Nothing conscious survives death.
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.” (Eccl 9:5-6, 10)

Solomon knew that death was the end of all consciousness….and that “Sheol” was the grave where all humans go when they die……even other “souls” created by God have the same “spirit“ animating them….the oxygen in their lungs that keeps all the organs of the body functioning…they too die the same death as we do, according to Solomon. (Eccl 3:19-20) Man has no superiority over the animals in death…..except that man alone is promised a resurrection…..that is a return to life, not a continuation of it.

He said that “love” also perishes when we die…..so are we to assume that there is no love if a soul survives death? He was speaking generally, not specifically of the wicked. All go to the same place…”Sheol” is the equivalent of “hades”…there is no hell of eternal torment…..death is the highest penalty under God’s law.
From where does Jesus call the dead? (John 5:28-29) He calls both the righteous and the unrighteous from the same place. (Acts 4:15)

Its the part that is born again... or not.

I believe that those in Christendom are laboring under a false assumption about what that means….
I see many who claim to be “born again” but who are out of step with others who also claim to be of that group. If it is God’s spirit that gives a person that conviction, then all would be in agreement because the spirit of God does not speak with a forked tongue.….it’s the other fellow who has that attribute. (1 Cor 1:10)

Actually its a misunderstanding of the word "Gehenna", that causes the person to not understand that "Hell is created for the DEVIL and His Angels".... long before Jerusalem existed, and even before Adam was created.

Absolute nonsense! Gehenna has nothing to do with “hell”…..it was a literal place with a highly symbolic meaning….the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, knew what he meant…Roman Catholicism turned it into a place of conscious torture as a weapon to be used with they ignorance they fostered…..it created an unhealthy fear of God…..nothing to do with love.

“Before Adam was created”? Adam was not told that he would go to hell….he was simply told that he would “return to the dust”….Death to a Jew, meant the opposite of life…..you have fallen for the devil’s counterfeit “Christianity” if you think that all these people who make claims about being “born again” actually are. If they were, then the spirit of God would inform them as to why they were chosen and what role they would play in heaven…..I have yet to hear what you all think you are going to do up there?

Did God create this earth as a training ground for heaven? Not if you read the first three chapters of Genesis…..this carefully and lovingly prepared planet was to be our permanent home. Living forever in paradise on earth was God’s first purpose in creating us here. No one needed to go to heaven until Adam took the human race into sin and death, losing the life his children should have enjoyed. Only then was the possibility of going to heaven opened up…and only when Messiah came was the reason made clear as to who, and why they were chosen.

Your take on scriptural things is so illogical and based on misinterpreting the scriptures to suit what you want to believe…..if we let it tell the story from start to finish we will see that it is just one story……it begins with what we lost in Genesis, how God planned to fix all the problems that rebellion caused, and it ends in Revelation with a restoration of all that we lost. (Rev 21:2-4) God will bring mankind back into reconciliation with himself through the blood of Christ, and reinstate his original purpose for us here…..nothing will stand in his way. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Behold]

There is nothing that leaves the body when you die, except the last breath from your lungs.

Paul said to be "absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".

Also..

Paul was stoned to DEATH, once, and he went to the 3rd Heaven, and SAW great things.., and that was not HIS BODY, as it was dead, laying under the rocks that just killed him...
Try to comprehend that @Aunty Jane .
Worth a shot.

also...

Jesus said from the Cross, "Father into they Hands i commend/commit my Spirit".

See ALL those?
Those are the same thing.. That is the SPIRIT, leaving the body, and it'll happen to you also, and wont you be surprised.
I'll tell you who is the most surprised today.
Its everyone who went to HELL< and is now there, and they are wondering why that's not Gehenna, as some devil deceived liar told them, when they were still breathing.

So, what you are trying to twist, using verses, is ether Momonism or JW.

If you believe that Jesus rose from the dead in a BODY, then you would be a really bad JW, as they dont believe that Jesus rose from the dead , bodily.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Paul said to be "absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord".

Paul was one of the anointed “body of Christ”….his hope was indeed in a “heavenly calling”. (Heb 3:1)
Their desire to be with their Lord overrides any desire they have to remain on earth. This is not a natural desire to live in paradise, because all humans have that desire, we were created to live in those conditions…..this is a desire to leave all earthly ties behind and to “be present with the Lord” in a completely foreign realm, in a completely different body.

Also..

Paul was stoned to DEATH, once, and he went to the 3rd Heaven, and SAW great things.., and that was not HIS BODY, as it was dead, laying under the rocks that just killed him...
Try to comprehend that @Aunty Jane .
Worth a shot.

You crack me up sometimes with your statements. When was Paul stoned to death? You are insinuating that Paul had a NDE…? Oh boy….he was given a revelation, O learned one. Please read your Bible. (2 Cor 12:6-7)

The apostle John was also transported to a future time in his Revelation, but he never left the present or his body. It was his mind that was transported, like Paul’s.

also...

Jesus said from the Cross, "Father into they Hands i commend/commit my Spirit".

His spirit is what animates all of us….it is the breath in his lungs that made him a living being. As he breathed his last breath as a human on earth, he entrusted his God with his resurrection. The dead cannot resurrect themselves. He was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” as Peter said, but he would never again be a human born of a woman. That body was sacrificed.

Christ’s resurrection had to be in a state whereby he could return to where he was before…as a glorious spirit being at his Father’s right hand. Since “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom” and fleshly beings would perish in God’s presence, Jesus returned to heaven in the same form that he was before his earthly mission.

He was God’s “only begotten son” long before his earthly sojourn. As the “firstborn of all creation” he was the very first and only direct creation of God, (Col 1 :15) giving him a unique relationship with his Father, among many “sons of God”. Yahweh is also his God. (Rev 3:12)

I'll tell you who is the most surprised today.
Its everyone who went to HELL< and is now there, and they are wondering why that's not Gehenna, as some devil deceived liar told them, when they were still breathing.

LOL….SURPRISE, SURPRISE!…..everyone who has ever died has gone to “hell” (Sheol/hades) and they were not in a conscious state, so they were to “sleep in death” awaiting the call to rise as Jesus promised. (John 5:28-29)
Those who will not rise again are in Gehenna which is an eternal sleep…never to awaken to life again. Why does God have to torture anyone for all eternity? Sounds like something the devil would enjoy….

Gehenna is not “hell”….the Jews knew what what Gehenna was, but apparently you do not. Since the dead are not in a conscious state, no amount of torture or torment is going to affect them in any way.

So, what you are trying to twist, using verses, is ether Momonism or JW.

So whose teachings are you espousing? You have to be a member of Christendom’s “church” system to accept their doctrines….the worship of more than one god….immortality of the soul….and hellfire…..all false religions hold to those teachings…even the heathens believe in those things. Jesus did not teach any of them.

If you believe that Jesus rose from the dead in a BODY, then you would be a really bad JW, as they dont believe that Jesus rose from the dead , bodily.

Since the Bible does not say that Christ rose “bodily”, I’ll just believe the apostle Peter. Jesus’ flesh and blood was sacrificed for mankind…..he did not rise in that horribly tortured body….why would God do that?

He would have raised him with all his wounds healed, given back the glorious body he had before becoming a human…..so what happened when he showed a doubting Thomas the marks of his execution? At no other time in interacting with his disciples did they mention his wounds.…and they would have been substantial.

As a spirit creature, Jesus could, like the angels in Bible times, materialize fleshly bodies, to bring God’s messages to his human servants…..apparently Jesus was often unrecognizable and he “disappeared” on one occasion, right before their eyes in a locked room. He was not raised in the body he sacrificed.

Just as those of God’s elect put off their bodies of flesh when they die, and are resurrected with spirit bodies in order to exist in the heavenly realm, so Jesus was raised in a spirit body and “appeared” to his disciples throughout the 40 days he remained on earth before his ascension.

Why did he materialize a body of flesh to interact with his followers? Because it was against God’s law to communicate with spirits. Angels always appeared to man in human form, avoiding the tricks of the demons who communicate with humans through spirit mediums….forbidden by God in his law. (Deut 18:9-12)

 

[Spyder]

I am really happy to read your posts Aunty Jane. I would surmise that God has given you much understanding - enough that you have not accepted the doctrines of man.

For those who want to know what our available copies of Scriptures say (as apposed to what commentaries say), I offer these verses. Wanting to know truth myself, I ask God to help me find conviction in His truth. I have had to work for it, and even if it upsets me because I am guilty or preaching the doctrines of man in my past, I can be set free from the teachings of man.

All of the verses in 2 Chron and 1 Kings say that the dead slept with their fathers. Even King David. None, not even the one who was after God's own heart has yet been raised.

But first: Daniel 12:1–2 At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Even then, the people of Israel were told that their would be "the book." Until that book is opened, everyone is "asleep.")

A favorite verse for those who believe that they will instantly be with God when they die is: Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Please note that there is no time mentioned in that verse. A verse that seems to offer a time frame is: Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” If there has been punctuation in ancient manuscripts, it would certainly eliminated arguments today. What we have here is likely a misplaced comma. So, what do we do to be diligent in our desire to find truth? We let scripture interpret scripture rather than create pretexts of proof-texts.

There was One whose destiny is to sit at the right hand of God and to fulfill prophecy given thousands of year previous to the One's death - Yeshua. Luke 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last. It was for Him alone to be taken soon to the Father.

Using scripture, we can find: John 3:13–15 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. (The Greek manuscripts don't actually say "descended." The literal translation should say "except he who came out of heaven." So, up to that point, nobody has "ascended" yet.

I think this passage make people uncomfortable. It says that "the dead in Christ will rise first." If people die "in Christ," we want to believe that we instantly go to be with Him. But - 1 Thess 4:16–17 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

But we cannot have it both ways, right? Scripture does not conflict with scripture.

Another uncomfortable verse: John 5:28–29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Mat10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Here, hell is called Gehenna in the manuscripts.)

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Now some will argue about when "the last day" is. But looking through scripture, we can find context.

1 Ti 6:13–16 I urge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see.

Beware of a problem created in our English translations of the bible. The name of the only true God Yahweh has been replaced with Lord. Even when don't realize it, we end up confusing Yahweh with Yeshua.

Ac 2:32–36 This Jesus (,) God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” ’ Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified. Watch out for that pesky punctuation.

Both those who are "in Christ" and those who denied Him are raised on the last day: Mt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

1 Cor15:20–25 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

2 Cor5:6–10 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So whether we are at home or away, we make it our aim to please him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. (This is another verse that some interpret the time as "instantly." The problem is that many other verses say our resurrection happens "on the last day" when Yeshua Messiah returns.

2 Cor12:2–5 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter. On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses—

Rev 20:11–15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades (Tartarus = abyss) gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

While we certainly like to think that all our loved ones are with God now, scripture - when we let it be interpreted by scripture - does not make that claim. For those who die, it will seem to be instantaneous. For us, we can accept that it will appear that way also after we die.