CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
What is wrong with carnal desires? Are they wrong simply because they are carnal? Or do we have carnal desires that we satisfy righteously?
Which kind of FAITH regarding JESUS do you have?
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You cannot take carnal desires into heaven. We must be born again. Revelation 22:11
As long as it’s understood that He gives more as we are able to bear more and that the more one is given the more thats expected, I absolutely have no problem with what you’ve said as it’s true.
I just have noted a specific group of people (and often they had truly horrible upbringings) and they are more fearful and struggle harder to fully trust. If they are given the slightest discouragement they can begin to fear they aren’t saved or born again or that God has abandoned them and they aren’t doing all God requires of them to just grow in trust and practice the obedience of trust. They are also easily led into trying to perfect in their own strength what was begun by the Spirit and that’s a horrible place to get stuck in.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
In my view, there is no moral component to a carnal desire. A particular desire is neither right nor wrong by itself. It is simply a fact of our existence. Carnal desires are God given aspects of our humanity. And, as those who love and fear the Lord, our challenge is to learn enough wisdom to know when it is appropriate to fulfill those desires and when it is not appropriate.
Consider sexual desire for instance. Men have sexual desires for women. God created men to have these desires. (Seems like a necessary condition of reproduction, i.e. be fruitful and multiply.) A man's carnal desire for his wife is appropriate and right; his carnal desire for his neighbor's wife is wrong. We evaluate the morality of a particular desire depending on the context. The right and wrong of sexuality, then, comes down to God's will regarding marriage.
Buddhists attempt to remove all desires in order to reach enlightenment. But Christians know that desires can not be removed and neither do we want to remove them. Rather, Christians understand that we must channel our desires in righteous directions or abstain from the fulfilment of them if and when it is not appropriate. But to deny we have desires is to run from the truth about our existence.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I think you have misunderstood the effect and significance of being born again.
First of all, we need to disabuse ourselves of a misconstrued concept that has crept into Christian thought: "the carnal nature." In general, the idea of "nature" has changed over the years. Today, when people speak of a "carnal nature" they typically use this phrase to indicate a causal factor in our behavior. A "carnal nature", in this view, is what explains why people do what they do. They are driven by a carnal nature; they act according to their carnal nature; their decisions are informed by their carnal nature, etc.
In fact, Christians believe that human beings have freedom of the will. Our choices are not biologically determined, they are not psychologically determined, and neither are they logically determined. Our choices are NOT determined by our nature. Rather, our nature is what we are as a collection of all our decisions put together. Our nature doesn't determine us; we determine our nature.
Suppose a particular individual always seems to get upset when he visits the eye doctor. We would say, "that is his nature". That is what he is like. But we should not think that he is being driven to get upset by his nature. He gets upset for his own reasons and he has the chance to not be upset if he should want to do that. His nature describes how he acts at the eye doctor, it doesn't determine how he acts at the eye doctor. Get the difference?
Being born again involves a fundamental change at the core of our "inward man", which results in repentance and faith and all the fruits of the spirit. But it isn't accurate to suggest that being born again deals with our "carnal nature" as if such a thing existed. Rather, being born again affects our enlightenment, our heart, our will, our willingness to accept the truth about ourselves, our desire to please God, and etc. Many born again individuals will suffer a moral failure at some point.
What is the difference between the born again person and the one who has not been born again? Enlightenment and perspective.
Not born again:
Often will dismiss moral failure
Makes excuses for moral failure
Often will deny it was wrong
Slow to forgive others
Quick to forgive self
Wants God to judge others
Wants God to forgive self
Loves his friends; despises those on the "outside."
Acts on his prejudices.
Born again:
Admits moral failure; Admits it was wrong
Confesses himself to be a sinner
Begs God for mercy with contrition
Quick to forgive others, just as God has forgiven him
Slow to judge and condemn others, just as God is slow to judge
Loves his enemies, just as God loved his
Slow to act and never on the basis of prejudice.
This has really gripped me. I’m pretty sure it’s not going to leave me, for days at least.
When I read it, my mind went to the two men praying and how they were both sinners, but one man had been given to see it and the other hadn’t. Enlightenment and perspective.
There is a difference between a human nature, and a carnal nature scripturally.
Carnal desires involves more than sex. Read 1 Corinthians about them suing one another in the Church. Paul calls that carnal. We should neither be suing, nor doing something worthy of court like extortion, etc.
As far as sex, Paul said if we have those desires we need to marry. And men and women should not be stirring up carnality that is sinful with pornography or explicit novels. A born again Christian protects themselves by following their righteous nature and turning away from those types of filthy temptations.
So natural desires for our wife or husband is righteous. But carnal desires for the neighbor's wife is evil. See the difference.
Oh my, I saw this and see that I upset you. sbg, it is my desire that none in the Church be lost. Very few in the Church are telling it like it really is - most teach a greasy grace and do not give any warnings calling that freedom from the law, rather than the truth of freedom from sin. John 8:32-36. The good news, especially about the publican and the Pharisee is that the only requirement to be born again is to honestly see ourselves as weak and helpless to be good enough to enter heaven. We confess that weakness and ask Jesus to fill us with His strength and righteousness. It is not "imputed" like some coverup of continued sins, it is actual. Jesus kills our old man that was weak and always stumbling, and creates in us a nature that is full of grace - real grace/the divine power of God; not some fake mask. 2 Peter 1:2-11.
If you are really feeling gripped, feel griped for the baloney being taught in most Church denominations that teaches us to repent, then when you sin again, repent again, then when you sin again, repent again, then when you sin again, repent again, then when you sin again, repent again. THAT is just us - not God. God cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. How? My killing the source - the old man/carnal nature. I told you before that I felt mine lift out of my body 45 years ago. I know acknowledging that makes you mad for admitting it, but I didn't do it - Jesus did it all. But then as 1 John 3:3 and 1 John 5:18 says, we make right choices and keep ourselves. But it is easy with the new nature that has a super-sensitive conscience. With all these blessing that Jesus gives us, which overlooking sin is not one of them for He is holy and directs us to be holy also. If you still think I grace is overlooking sin, and it is more righteous to keep admit that Jesus' death just saved us from punishment and I should reckon myself a sinner, instead of what Romans 6:11 says and "reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord," read the Scriptures.
1 Thes. 5:
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
1 Peter 1:
13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”
17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever
Oh wait, no, no. You didn’t upset me! Gripped, as in grabbed me, not griped - gripped. It was so true that it gripped my attention.
I met someone once a lot like you. He took his personal experience and insisted everyone’s must be exactly the same. It just so happened he received his Holy Spirit baptism the exact second he was water baptized, so he insisted no one receives the Spirit without a water baptism. Even when given an example in scripture where someone did, he still insisted everyone’s experience had to be exactly the same as his.
You have never upset me.
I met someone once a lot like you. He took his personal experience and insisted everyone’s must be exactly the same. It just so happened he received his Holy Spirit baptism the exact second he was water baptized, so he insisted no one receives the Spirit without a water baptism. Even when given an example in scripture where someone did, he still insisted everyone’s experience had to be exactly the same as his.
You have never upset me.
Oh wait, no, no. You didn’t upset me! Gripped, as in grabbed me, not griped - gripped. It was so true that it gripped my attention.
I met someone once a lot like you. He took his personal experience and insisted everyone’s must be exactly the same. It just so happened he received his Holy Spirit baptism the exact second he was water baptized, so he insisted no one receives the Spirit without a water baptism. Even when given an example in scripture where someone did, he still insisted everyone’s experience had to be exactly the same as his.
You have never upset me.
Oh good. I hope you agree too. About baptism, I had been baptized 3 times, but after I was filled with the Spirit, that is when God spoke to me and said, "NOW be baptized in water." Interesting, huh. To Him, the first 3 didn't even count. I just got wet. The key words are from a clear conscience. How can you have a clear conscience if you still have a sinful nature that keeps sinning like mine did. No, when my carnal nature was removed and I was ABLE to stop sinning due to lack of desire to, THAT is a clear conscience. I like to keep it that way.
But I did find out one thing more recently that we must do besides not willfully sin, and that is to forgive each other. That was the hardest for me. But now knowing that, I make sure I don't hold grudges, and the forums is a great place to practice. LOL
I haven't read the post you actually were responding to, but I've printed it and will go read it now.
A water baptism is a ritual that speaks of the true baptism of Spirit. I have not been water baptized. I’m obviously not against it though. It’s like that with all the church rituals. Even circumcision speaks of the spiritual reality of a circumcised heart.
As Jesus said, when John protested, " “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” That is why I made sure I was baptized in water as they commanded in Acts 2:38-39. I will do anything God asks me to do in total obedience, and now without question. I've learned God knows best. Personally, I believe we are to do this even though it may sound like a ritual with a more spiritual truth, just as I partake of the blood and body of Jesus during the Lord's Supper.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
My central point to you is this, which is something I would like you to consider when you get a chance. The word "carnal" comes from the Latin "carne" which simply means "flesh". When I think of "carne" I think of meat as in "carne asada" Literally, "grilled meat." Our translations, based on the KJV often times translate "flesh" as "carnal".
That having been said, Paul the apostle is not thinking about meat or the flesh on our bones. He is not talking about our bodies or our pleasures or anything related to "carnality" as we understand the term. Rather, he is talking about our humanity, our entire self, including our minds and our hearts and our spirit all taken together. In order to see this, consider the following verse.
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness . . . Romans 1:1-4
Here Paul is not speaking about desires or pleasures or our proclivities. He intends to list the bone fides of Jesus, which identify him to be the Messiah. The first qualification on the list is his bloodline: Jesus was born to the family of Jesse, and more importantly, he was born a son of David. In this context, the phrase "according to the flesh" indicates something human about Jesus. He was born; he was born into a particular family; he has a royal pedigree.
Next, consider the following verse, where Paul uses the same phrase concerning our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.2 Corinthians 5:16-17
Here in this context, Paul is making the point that those "in Christ" are new creatures. What does he mean? Again, I think, he is talking about the way we know each other. To the question, "who are you" the answer involves our name, address, occupation, place of business, family history, associates, enemies, gender, and all the other ways we identify ourselves. From his perspective, living in the first century Jesus was a man, born to Mary, from the line of David, growing up near Nazareth, working as a carpenter, a devout and holy man and a teacher of Israel. According to Paul, this is how we knew him "according to the flesh" and the term "flesh" is short hand for "how we identify one another." He tells us, we no longer identify him that way. (He doesn't spell this out but we now know Jesus in other ways such as, Messiah, Christ, son of God, savior, ruler over all creation, etc.)
Put simply, we no longer know each other according to our pedigree; we no longer know each other according to our status, our station, our money, our power, our family line, our economic resources, and etc. This is how we know each other "kata sarka" i.e. "according to the flesh." But we no longer know each other according to these categories.
In Christ, Paul writes, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, Male or Female, Slave or Free." Rather, we now know each other according to other categories related to the spirit (kata pneuma) All those in Christ have the indwelling of the spirit. We know each other by our spirituality, and our relationship to Jesus Christ. We are "according to the spirit" if the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. And what does the spirit of Christ look like? Abba Father, not my will but your will be done.
I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet, but I want you to know that I've printed your last three posts to me and will study them later tonight. I haven't read the last two yet.
Hi sbg,
On my computer it doesn't appear you are responding to anyone in particular. It may be because I have them on ignore, but I can't see that anyone I've got on ignore has responded on the post for you to be answering them. Can you please tell me who you are responding to. I thought this site showed that there IS someone, but I thought this site did too.
Sin could get in but ONLY if we quench the Spirit that makes us born again of the seed of the Father. And it would only be from our human will power.
Scripture is full of why Jesus came - to free us from sin - what separated us from God in the first place. What most denominations do not get is that starting with the first separation from 1st century teaching, the RCC, and continuing through the Reformation, we have either the divine nature of God and a human nature that chooses righteousness from our own will out of obedience to God, or the carnal sinful nature and human nature, but it struggles between what is the law of God and our carnal desires, which the first is free from. We do NOT HAVE BOTH.
That is the same thing and the second does not deny the first as if we do not need to run that race daily by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin every moment of every day.
We cannot judge professing believers in that way, God only knows if they believe in Him or not but because we are warned not to sow to the works of the flesh in reaping corruption, is why we are running that race in living as His disciple by faith in Him to help us to follow Him daily.
The consequence is not loss of salvation, but loss of being partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection at the rapture event when the Bridegroom comes. This who get left behind will weep & die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting their resurrection as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, to raise up the generations following them in serving the King of kings on earth.
There is a big difference between the vessels unto honor, the vessels of gold & silver that departed from iniquity from those that did not.
The prodigal son may have given up his first inheritance for wild ( sinful ) living and even though he can never get it back, he is still son.
However, since the Bridegroom has not come yet, believers willfully living in sin without repentance, without any resisting of sin, should call on Jesus Christ now for help to deliver them from their sins and to keep them from their sins daily because even though they may not believe He is appearing soon, death can strike at any moment so they need to stop procrastinating now.
The Father draws us. Scripture is specific of giving that credit to the Father.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Believers that put the spotlight on the Holy Spirit are not recognizing that the Holy Spirit will only lead them to put the spotlight on the Son and keep it on the Son in worship, prayer, and fellowship because there is no other way to come to God the Father by.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Do you or don't you recognize that there is a false teaching of believing IN Jesus, and that his blood covers our sins from the view of the Father and they are lost?
But no one who has the faith OF Jesus and abides in Him and He in them commits sins unto death. And He who begun a good work in them shall finish it. The "drawing" of the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily end in acceptance of Jesus. That is where many are in the Church today. They are still being drawn, but are not truly saved and have the faith OF Jesus.
There is no distinction to be had there.
Here is an example in scripture for how those professing believers that went astray are still His.
Paul addressed the falling away from the faith in the latter days as that was to happen first before He appears for the gathering ( the rapture ) in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-3 as that was to happen first before the great tribulation and that son of perdition event.
Paul said that this iniquity was happening even in his day per 2 Thessalonians 2:7 before mentioning that son of perdition in verse 8 before jumping back to describing what that iniquity was; saved believers believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation after a sign. Thus what was taken out of the way, the restraining part of the Holy Spirit in verse 7 and be discern with Him and applied as for why & how God would permit the strong delusion to occur for when saved believers believe that lie.
We can know that is the iniquity spoken of when in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 Paul reminds them of the tradition taught of us of when we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel which exposes the lie of thinking they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation.
So Paul goes on to address those disorderly believers that departed from faith and that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us in how with the Lord's help as in touching us, we are commanded by the Lord to withdraw from them per 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 and yet we are to do so, not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still because they are still His and thus still saved; 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
One may see with His help how the parable of the ten virgins apply to them for being out to the market seeking to be filled with oil ( Holy Spirit ) was why they were not ready but yet the foolish were still part of that kingdom of heaven, even though they were denied the wedding receptions for not being ready because they were in that iniquity that denied Him as always being Spirit filled since salvation. Matthew 9:17 & John 6:35
Anyway, as you may see, we cannot judge anyone as not a true saint when they have been bought & sealed as His.
1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
There is a danger of denying Him by how we judge others when the Lord had bought them as that can also be done by heresy too.
2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
We can mark false teachers to warn others by, but not judged them as unsaved or not a true believer.
The shunning is for their own good to convict them to repent.
James 5:
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
2 Corinthians 2:
6 This punishment which was inflicted by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary, you ought rather to forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one be swallowed up with too much sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love to him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive.
Even so, the only way they can forgive him is not in the middle of his sin in spite of it, but after his repentance.
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted
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